Autogyros - commercial use
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Autogyros - commercial use
Hello, wasn't sure what forum too post this on but seeing as they have thrashing things on top.... Anyone ever come across autogyros for commercial use or are they just regarded as 'fun' machines with no real commercial use and have a poor safety record? Apart from the lack of rules and regs surrounding their commercial use.... I can see them complementing other airborne platforms quite nicely as well as filling certain niches... Just thought I would put it out there
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A friend of mine has one, an open two seater. I've flown in it a few times and yes it is fun but cannot envisage a commercial use. Not sure about ' poor safety record'. As with any flying machine if they're operated correctly they're quite safe.
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Oh yeah, read about that, interesting concept, not sure how they powered the wing tips? Prob wrong saying poor safety record, any aircraft, assuming it's mechanically sound is safe as long as operated within it's own limitations (actually, more importantly, the pilots limitations), just want to get get a handle on why they never taken off
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Mikey
It is all very recent, but in the UK there is a certified machine, The Cavalon, that can be used for day/night VFR piloted by a CPL(G). I think there is just one machine so far and just a handful of pilots.
There is very little obvious overlap between heli ops and gyro ops at this stage, but it will be interesting to see what happens as gyro capability increases.
Mark
It is all very recent, but in the UK there is a certified machine, The Cavalon, that can be used for day/night VFR piloted by a CPL(G). I think there is just one machine so far and just a handful of pilots.
There is very little obvious overlap between heli ops and gyro ops at this stage, but it will be interesting to see what happens as gyro capability increases.
Mark
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Danny, it's spelled "Rotodyne". Only one r in it.
It was the tip jets that caused the noise complaints. A great shame it was cancelled because the aircraft had an exceptional gross weight to basic weight ratio. Far better than most helicopters.
It was the tip jets that caused the noise complaints. A great shame it was cancelled because the aircraft had an exceptional gross weight to basic weight ratio. Far better than most helicopters.
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yester yrs gyros were having a bad run, but now is a whole new story. Google.....magni, ela, mt03, arrowcopter, cavalon, dta jrow, fleurieu, plus others.
Gyros are reported as widely used in australia in the grazing industry. Did hear that they were to be legalised for such use.
Gyros are reported as widely used in australia in the grazing industry. Did hear that they were to be legalised for such use.
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Anyone ever come across autogyros for commercial use or are they just regarded as 'fun' machines with no real commercial use
Although it had jump capability, about all it was good was to jump you over a small bush, because the subsequent shallow takeoff angle wouldn't clear any kind of massive obstacle. A Cessna 172 climbs out more steeply than the one I was flying.
Also, not having a collective seems to be a big safety problem. If you got yourself into a situation where you are mushing towards the ground there's no way to pull collective just before impact to cushion the landing.
Also, while you'll see people say that they're safer than a helicopter because they're always in autorotation, the CFI that was flying with me said they actually have a pretty bad safety record.
All in all, I came away with the impression that an autogyro/gyrocopter is all the worst bits of an airplane bolted to all the worst bits of a helicopter. Seriously.
Also, it was loud. We were getting tons of noise complaints whenever we flew (fairly loud engine & prop, coupled to the slow rate of climb meant we were overflying houses down low when we were in the pattern).
Same old myth about the Rotodyne....it wasn't noise that killed it( the tip jets were only fired up for a couple or so minutes during takeoff and landing,and silencers were being tested anyway)...it was lack of government support and funding at a time when Westland had three competing heavy lift projects on the go. They chose to go with the Belvedere instead which had an actual order placed.
FWIW, many years ago when I was working in the Oz outback, several blokes were using recreational autogyro's as mustering aircraft (mustering sheep and cattle on large properties where the average paddock size was north of 10,000 acres). Although not fitting exactly under the regulations (they would claim if questioned by anyone who looked official they were just helping out friends) they were doing commercial operations and making a living out of it.
Very hairy though.
Very hairy though.
Gyros were simply a 1920s phase in the development of the 'real' helicopter. Neither fish nor fowl. There is a niche place for them but that is probably it.
The current lead agency in their development is probably Groen Brothers in the USA but they simply have not got the money to certify the various [pretty similar] craft they put forward over the years and clearly better men than I have looked at the commercial risk and decided that the rewards are not worth the investment.
They can do a commercial job but are better suited to the private user for fun.
If you are investing in a commercial pilot to drive one there is going to be little if any difference in the salary the driver wants and not that much difference in the cost of the airframe/maintenance. Yes there might be a difference in the fuel consumption with a driven rotor but set against that is a need to take off and land from a football pitch rather than a tennis court.
Just not enough gains from a commercial viewpoint.
IMHO
The current lead agency in their development is probably Groen Brothers in the USA but they simply have not got the money to certify the various [pretty similar] craft they put forward over the years and clearly better men than I have looked at the commercial risk and decided that the rewards are not worth the investment.
They can do a commercial job but are better suited to the private user for fun.
If you are investing in a commercial pilot to drive one there is going to be little if any difference in the salary the driver wants and not that much difference in the cost of the airframe/maintenance. Yes there might be a difference in the fuel consumption with a driven rotor but set against that is a need to take off and land from a football pitch rather than a tennis court.
Just not enough gains from a commercial viewpoint.
IMHO
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In Germany, flying Autogyros requires an ultra-light license. And this also entitles for commercial flying (no need for CPL).
So there's quite some stuff being done with gyrocopters (especially with aircraft from the german manufacturer "AutoGyro" like the MTOSport, Cavalon, Calidus, ...).
Scenic flights and foto/film-shooting are the biggest aereas.
And the Rotax-Engines the AutoGyro models use, are not that loud. They sound like any other UL-aircraft.
Thracian
So there's quite some stuff being done with gyrocopters (especially with aircraft from the german manufacturer "AutoGyro" like the MTOSport, Cavalon, Calidus, ...).
Scenic flights and foto/film-shooting are the biggest aereas.
And the Rotax-Engines the AutoGyro models use, are not that loud. They sound like any other UL-aircraft.
Thracian
[QUOTE=Fareastdriver;9762714]Autogyros have had lots of uses over the years.
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbbQaIoaSM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbbQaIoaSM[/URL
Built one and flew them for years, even displayed em for a while but lost a few good friends to them unloading their rotors which is immediately terminal. The newer designs seem to have a good safety record though so ok if you just want a fun machine !
BG
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbbQaIoaSM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbbQaIoaSM[/URL
Built one and flew them for years, even displayed em for a while but lost a few good friends to them unloading their rotors which is immediately terminal. The newer designs seem to have a good safety record though so ok if you just want a fun machine !
BG
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Older designs certainly had a [deserved] bad reputation - especially kit built ones. Main problem being "power push over", where the prop thrust line was above C of G and so increased power would tend to "arseovertit" to a point where recovery was impossible.
Following some clever aeronautical engineering that problem has been overcome, and providing you don't try to fly aerobatics [!!] they are much safer. Often wondered why they are not used for some purpose other than [great] fun, but they can be cold [even the Calidus with doors]. However, with that little Rotax engine they are fairly economical to run - especially compared with helicopters.
Following some clever aeronautical engineering that problem has been overcome, and providing you don't try to fly aerobatics [!!] they are much safer. Often wondered why they are not used for some purpose other than [great] fun, but they can be cold [even the Calidus with doors]. However, with that little Rotax engine they are fairly economical to run - especially compared with helicopters.
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The Cavalon looks a wonderful sexy fun looking aircraft, to be honest they have obvious uses to me but poor rep safety wise and other reasons means they have never taken off I have a few ideas about how they could be used with a mate of mine but is it just a case of reaching maturity (and adding caa rules and regs surrounding them)?Btw, the rotadyne never seemed a flawed concept to me, just commercial pressures and politics got in way
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The Cavalon does indeed look like sexy fun in that video. However, for that specific application of aerial video, I couldn't help wondering why you'd use this rig instead of a commercial camera drone? It would be cheaper, safer, and have the ability to hover in place, which is a major advantage in cinematography. Zooming around with a camera on the nose really limits your options.
