Starting Out - Advice

[ac_ppl]

Hello everyone,

First post, go easy :)

Since early teens I've wanted to learn to fly, always gazed up at the skies and wished I was up there! Fast forward 10-15 years (mid-20s) and I now have the money to learn.

I had a trial lesson a few years back, I was hugely looking forward to it but quite nervous as it was a very windy day and I'm not a great flyer anyway.. unfortunately it was very turbulent and I came away feeling slightly less enthusiastic to pursue my dream, but far from about to give up. Last weekend, I had a second trial lesson (both at EGBO - halfpenny green). Once again it was fairly windy and turbulent but I was much more relaxed this time and greatly enjoyed it.

I think I have caught 'the flying bug'. I'm based down in London, however finishing up with my full time job here shortly, so I thinking about doing some intensive training late Summer back at EGBO (cheaper, seems a good airfield to learn at, instructors good). I have a couple of questions for you all:

(1) I have Pooley's Air Law on order, plan to study this asap and aim to sit it as soon as I can. Would people advise trying to get most of the theory out the way with first and then focus on flying after? Could I plausibly get through all the theory without practical flying experience or would some modules require practical experience?

(2) Looking to get a class 2 medical done around Birmingham/West Mids area as it looks half the price of London! Can anyone recommend any places?

(3) I've now had a lesson with both (Andy? I think..) at The Flying School Limited & last weekend with Bob Kirk at Wolverhampton Flight Training. Both seemed good. Can anyone recommend either of these schools?


Any other general advice/stuff I should be aware of before ploughing lots of time & money into this exciting journey?!

Thanks!

[PA28181]

Just one bit of advice really, as others here will give you chapter & verse on all the pitfalls, highs/lows to expect.

Get the medical before you spend any more cash, and if you get Class II NEVER pay up front for any flying no matter how persuasive they seem.

PS make that two bits....

[ac_ppl]

Sounds like good advice! Do I need to purchase/take anything for the medical?

Can anyone recommend a cheap place to get it done near London (I have a car so can travel)?

[tobster911]

Just one bit of advice really, as others here will give you chapter & verse on all the pitfalls, highs/lows to expect.

Get the medical before you spend any more cash, and if you get Class II NEVER pay up front for any flying no matter how persuasive they seem.

PS make that two bits....

THIS.... This, is good advice.

Do read the Air Law book well, and absorb the information as it's the one exam to do before you go solo. Everyone does it in a different order. I practically did all my flying, then sat a week's intensive training, and within 2 weeks, had done my final skills test. If I were to do it again, I would, personally, do some reading for everything until I reach solo standard. At that point, I'd sit all the tests in a very short time period (maybe do an intensive course to brush up on what you've learned).

Once you've done that, go solo and do all the rest of the flying.

Only problem with this is that the exam passes only last for 18 months (I believe), so if for whatever reason you don't take your skills test within those 18 months, you've wasted a lot of time and money doing them. However, if you're doing a month's intensive course, this certainly shouldn't be a problem.

You could do all the theory before flying, but a bit of flying experience certainly helps with some of the topics.

Can't recommend any schools up there unfortunately, but in terms of choosing a school, read reviews, look at the aircraft and decide which one you prefer.

[bingofuel]

My advice would be to enjoy the process of learning to fly, do not rush it and let things consolidate. Read anything and everything you can. The licence will come along when you are ready, do not just aim to get a licence, aim to be the best pilot you can be.
Unfortunately history shows that many people once they gain a licence let it lapse fairly soon afterwards, so just take your time and have fun.

[Brad2523]

One bit of advise, but not really on what you have asked...

Do not pay over the odds for additional ground school training for the exams. I am not a natural learner from text books but I passed all the exams just by reading the books a few chapters at a time in the evenings and practising the past papers. There is no need to pay for courses or ground school. The exams and the information you need to retain are really are not that hard.

If you have been out of school for a while and investing the money on a license then I understand the feeling that you may want to take the extra tuition just be sure, but honestly you will waste your money.

In total you need about 2 hours ground school max to learn the nav stuff/filling out a plog.

I know everyone is different but honestly I passed all exams first time just by reading and doing past exams. I passed all the exams in the beginning and I'm not sure that was the right thing to do - For example learning how to use the VOR before going solo so some of the theory only really started making sense when we covered it in the practical lessons.

[ac_ppl]

One bit of advise, but not really on what you have asked...

Do not pay over the odds for additional ground school training for the exams. I am not a natural learner from text books but I passed all the exams just by reading the books a few chapters at a time in the evenings and practising the past papers. There is no need to pay for courses or ground school. The exams and the information you need to retain are really are not that hard.

If you have been out of school for a while and investing the money on a license then I understand the feeling that you may want to take the extra tuition just be sure, but honestly you will waste your money.

In total you need about 2 hours ground school max to learn the nav stuff/filling out a plog.

I know everyone is different but honestly I passed all exams first time just by reading and doing past exams. I passed all the exams in the beginning and I'm not sure that was the right thing to do - For example learning how to use the VOR before going solo so some of the theory only really started making sense when we covered it in the practical lessons.

Thanks. Yes, not planning to take any ground school - books & past papers should be enough I'm hoping! :)

[scifi]

Hi... one thing with the Medical will be the eye-sight test. If you fail to read the eye-chart the Doctor will ask you to have your eyes tested at an opticians and to buy corrective glasses... Then come back at a later date to do that test again.


Maybe a free eye-test at Tescos, or other venue could save you having to make a return visit to the A.M.E.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

There are some of the exam subjects that don't make anything like as much sense until you've done a reasonable amount of flying, such as navigation. Air Law is the place to start, as most of what you have to learn has no relation to reality at all.


Oh, and in case nobody else mentions this: DO NOT PAY UP FRONT.


(Several of us say this to every newcomer. Some of whom ignore us and then lose all their money.)

[tmmorris]

I have a cheapish AME in Wantage, Oxon - if that's interesting PM me

[flyinkiwi]

I would like to qualify the DO NOT PAY UP FRONT part. While this is definitely sound advice, what is also sound is having enough money available so you can fly as and when you can. A lot of the basic skills in flying can only be acquired through repetition so the more regular your lessons (particularly early on in your training) the quicker you'll pick things up which will save you money on having to do remedial flying if you stop/start a lot due to cashflow.

[Nick T]

Yeah, just to add an alternative to the 'don't pay upfront' crowd... I paid £4.5k upfront to an established and long running school at a Class D airport. That banked me around 35 hours of C152 time. It was great knowing that if the weather was good and the instructor was available I could walk the 400metres from work to the school and go flying, or when I was doing solo circuits I could pop out during my lunch break and get some time in.
Meant I didn't have to worry about funding anything for a huge portion of my training (in fact, I only needed to find 5 hours extra at the end).

I know why people say 'don't pay upfront' (the school may close unexpectedly / you may not actually get on with the school's training methods etc.) but for me it was key to me getting my licence.

[Sam Rutherford]

Seconding (even thirding) two things from previous:

There are advantages to getting a discount for upfront payment - but there's a risk involved. My suspicion is that the risk is much smaller than people think - people only make a noise when it goes wrong, never when (in the vast majority of cases) it goes right.

Be careful of investing heavily in getting a licence if you're not going to be able to keep flying afterwards. Either because it's too expensive, or because you only have enough to fly the minimum hours and so it becomes an obligation to fly, rather than a pleasure.

My tuppence. Safe flights, Sam.

[Discorde]

Hi ac ppl. The book 'Handling Light Aircraft' by Julien Evans might be useful to you. Some of the posters here have been flying for many decades. We never cease to get a thrill from piloting aircraft and looking down at the world passing by and we know we're enjoying a privilege denied to mere groundlings. Good luck with the course!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

There are advantages to getting a discount for upfront payment - but there's a risk involved.
Too right - just think about it: if the school is wanting to borrow money from you, and is offering what amounts to an over-the-odds interest rate, this can only be because they have already tried to borrow money from the bank at normal rates and been turned down. You're better at risk assessment than the banks, are you?

[tobster911]

this can only be because they have already tried to borrow money from the bank at normal rates and been turned down. You're better at risk assessment than the banks, are you?

I'm a little confused about this. So, companies like OAA and CTC, who ask for lump sums up front throughout the course of the training... Have they tried to get a loan and failed? I know they're a bit different to some smaller schools, but still

[ac_ppl]

Thanks for the great advice all :)

I don't think the flying school I am looking to practice with offers a pre-pay discount. It has also been long standing so fingers crossed no issues.

Found a very cheap AME for London - £80 class 2 initial in Ealing. Needless to say they're quite booked up! Going to get that done asap then I'll hopefully have the green light.

[PA28181]

Just ask yourself why would you get cheaper flying by paying upfront, does the cost of instruction,maintenance rent, rates and fuel magically reduce because a punter sticks 5 grand in their bank??????

[tobster911]

Fair comment I suppose, but I guess that from a business perspective, it's a good idea as you then have some commitment from the student that they're not going to go elsewhere (though I'd never pay in full, and I'd never pay up front until I'd at least had a couple of flights to ensure I like the training environment)

[Sam Rutherford]

Ah, that'll be from someone who has never run a flight school! Neither have I, but I can imagine that cashflow is an expensive (loans from bank/overdrafts) nightmare. Nobody gets rich running a flight school!

Thus, getting cash up front allows cost savings (and stress).

[PA28181]

it's a good idea as you then have some commitment from the student that they're not going to go elsewhere

That really should be because the acrft are clean and reliable, the ground facilities are to a decent standard for the type of customer base you expect in the aviation world, smart and customer orientated staff including the instructors, and because the word of mouth advertising should be good enough....

[tobster911]

Of course it should be, but it never is. Same reason car dealerships will offer you a service plan on a car. It's cheaper than paying each time you come for a service, but the service has to be done at the dealer.

[Sam Rutherford]

I do think that PA28181 should try and see this from the school's (real-world) perspective. If nothing else, there are clearly reasons why all (?) schools offer price packages. So it clearly makes sense to them...

[PA28181]

Sorry tobster but comparing car dealerships with aviation doesn't work, totally different business model/customer base.

Sam I don't need to see it from their perspective as a customer I am only interested in the service level from my previous reply from these "businesses, and that's all they are nothing more, as for the "it's what suits them" is just that, it's not for the customers benefit even with a little discount as you are basically stuck with them no matter how bad it could get once you are committed.

[Sam Rutherford]

Ah, so because you wouldn't take that option, you think the option shouldn't exist?

Don't forget that in many (the majority of) cases, people do pay a lump up front and both they and the school are very happy to have done so. Win-win all around...

[tobster911]

It is totally different, but the principle of doing a discount if you pay up front for a service that ties you in to one business is found all over the place. It's the same thing. You could pay £800 for a service plan, and have a horrendous experience, but you're still tied to that dealer. In terms of a business model, they're all fairly much of a muchness no matter what business you're in. provide good service, make good money, that's it.

Of course it's for the business's benefit, otherwise it's not a business, it's a charity. If it was horrendous, there would always be a way to get your money back (unless, of course, the school closed - but how often has that happened, compared to those that do this every day?)

I'm not saying that you're wrong or anything like that, not in any respect, I personally wouldn't pay a massive amount up front, but, take FIS for example. If you want to do some hour building there, you can pay up front for 25 hours and each hour would be 150 EUR. However, if you book for 50 hours, it's only 148 EUR per hour. Now, I know this equates to only £100 saved, so maybe not the best example, but it's a big company, and if I had the money, I wouldn't hesitate to do a block booking with them.

[PA28181]

Ah, so because you wouldn't take that option, you think the option shouldn't exist?

No not in the slightest. Just if it is offered, my advice to any new starter will not change from "Don't Pay Upfront" I wouldn't, but no-one has to take any advice from me you don't even know if I can fly.......so my advice is just as most here not worth the pixels it's written on, as a future pilot you will be making some possibly life threatening decisions that will not be sorted out on a forum so pay upfront if happy,

[flyinkiwi]

It seems this thread has devolved into a pay upfront or not debate. My 2c on that part is, it is entirely dependent on a whole lot of factors so one cannot be absolutely certain it is appropriate for all possible scenarios. As a general rule of thumb, it's probably a good idea to hang onto your money for as long as possible. Having said that, I myself paid up front because the club I trained at has been teaching people to fly for 70 years and will probably be doing so long after I'm gone. YMMV.

[mary meagher]

ac_ppl, I am somewhat surprised that nobody on this thread has suggested learning to fly properly....WITHOUT an engine! They are called gliders.
As you live near London, why not visit the London Gliding Club? near Dunstable,
or my club, near Banbury, called Shenington.
That way you get started on the basics. Effects of controls. Weather - very important! safety...looking out for other aircraft, etc etc.

And if you fail your medical, you are probably still OK to fly solo in a glider.....

I started in gliders, got the PPL later and did a lot of tug flying which somebody else pays for!

It won't hurt to get a bit of real flying in while waiting for your medical!

Happy landings!

[jamesgrainge]

ac_ppl, I am somewhat surprised that nobody on this thread has suggested learning to fly properly....WITHOUT an engine! They are called gliders.
As you live near London, why not visit the London Gliding Club? near Dunstable,
or my club, near Banbury, called Shenington.
That way you get started on the basics. Effects of controls. Weather - very important! safety...looking out for other aircraft, etc etc.

And if you fail your medical, you are probably still OK to fly solo in a glider.....

I started in gliders, got the PPL later and did a lot of tug flying which somebody else pays for!

It won't hurt to get a bit of real flying in while waiting for your medical!

Happy landings!

Do gliders hours count towards your ppl?

[PA28181]

I am somewhat surprised that nobody on this thread has suggested learning to fly properly

Thats just written off all his chances of learning to fly then. Yep fly gliders, they don't go anywhere, except round in circles, you will stand around all day freezing to get a flight after you have pulled,pushed and generally dogsbodied heavy fibreglass around hoping to get some in.:)

I suggest paramotoring at least you go where/when you want.

[tobster911]

Thats just written off all his chances of learning to fly then. Yep fly gliders, they don't go anywhere, except round in circles, you will stand around all day freezing to get a flight after you have pulled,pushed and generally dogsbodied heavy fibreglass around hoping to get some in.
Hahaha, pretty much sums up gliding in the UK

I love glider flying. Haven't done anywhere near as much as I'd like, but I did start with it and found it thoroughly enjoyable.

However, as the hours don't really count (or a very small percentage do), it's the kind of thing that isn't as important as powered flying, if you just want to get your hours and your license.

I am not going to argue though that glider flying, in my experience, is a bit more involved and certainly trains with regards to weather etc, and as Mary says, once you've got your PPL and some gliding experience under your belt, you may find that the gliding club gives you control of a tug :)

[Heston]

(unless, of course, the school closed - but how often has that happened, compared to those that do this every day?)

Flight schools go bust much much more frequently than any other business that you'd pay up front for a service that you expect to be provided over an extended time period. I know, and have taught, five people who have lost between them many thousands of pounds each at different schools (over 20 years granted).

And Mary's advice is good. I've no time for those who dismiss gliding. You'll be a better pilot for having done some.

[jamesgrainge]

Flight schools go bust much much more frequently than any other business that you'd pay up front for a service that you expect to be provided over an extended time period. I know, and have taught, five people who have lost between them many thousands of pounds each at different schools (over 20 years granted).

And Mary's advice is good. I've no time for those who dismiss gliding. You'll be a better pilot for having done some.

That's as may be, however, if flying a glider costs you money, and you want to spend money for your powered flight licences, and none of the hours count towards a PPL, there won't be many takers. Aviation is expensive enough as it is, without splashing money about on other avenues than the one you are interested in.

[PA28181]

You'll be a better pilot for having done some.

Well I have done "Some" at Lasham and the Black Moutains, it is certainly different to powered flying by a long way. But, it is not in the same "type" of flying that the majority want, which is get in start up take off go where you want land and come back again with other pilots/friends/family, this is not an option for glider pilots.

It is IMHO purely "sport" flying and yes glider pilots who are experienced are probably some of the best handlers of wind/WX/thermals for staying aloft and physical handling ability, BUT it's not in the same league as powered flying, and I wouldn't go picking up gliding skills as a precursor to powered flying as you will if on a budget spend much needed cash and time probably getting rid of your different habits, and as been said not much benefit to logging SEP hours.

[Heston]

. (w)hat the majority want, which is get in start up take off go where you want land and come back again with other pilots/friends/family

Urgh how boring! That's not flying, that's driving a bus, and I'd query your assertion that it's what the majority want to do. The £200 bacon roll is one reason so many new ppl holders give up so soon.
But fair enough, if that's what the OP wants, then I'd agree that gliding won't miss him.
And you are wrong about transferrable skills - gliding skills make good power pilots, but it doesn't work as well the other way round.

[flyingorthopod]

Gliding is great fun and teaches good handling and airmanship skills which I think transfer usefully to powered flying. I've only had a few trips in gliders though.

The thing I found frustrating is that the gliding clubs I have experience of expect you to spend a whole day helping out in order to get flying. This is a great social experience and very enjoyable but if you only have half a day spare it's hard to get airborne; picking a flying club and booking a slot that suits you makes life easier for the terminally busy.

If you're likely to be near London for a while, Clacton do a Super Cub PPL and that's a good way to learn proper stick and rudder skills. And more fun than a Cessna.

If there's a discount for paying in advance, take it but use a credit card so if the school does go bust you will be able to claim against the card company.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Hahaha, pretty much sums up gliding in the UK
I've been gliding once. An entire evening spent doing stuff on the ground for ten minutes in the air, at a cost per minute not that much less than powered flying. An interesting experience but not something I'm going to do very much of.

[n5296s]

I've never understood why glider pilots take such a superior attitude, as demonstrated on this thread. Sure, it's a perfectly fine flying hobby, if that's what you enjoy. Each to their own and all that. That's not a reason to go on about it how it's the only way to learn to fly, or make it seem somehow superior.

My personal experience of gliding is that it's pretty boring, as much as any kind of flying ever can be, and disproportionately expensive. You get towed up, you descend slowly, you land, rinse and repeat. At an hourly cost exceeding flying the Pitts, which I promise is a LOT more fun. Now if you fly out of Minden, it can be a lot more exciting - I have a friend who got his PPL-G precisely so he could do that. But most places aren't Minden (next door to the Sierra Nevada, and home to several glider flying records).

And that's the US version of gliding, with powered, paid-for tows, a lot like renting a powered aircraft except without an engine or the ability to go anywhere. As I understand the UK version, and as described here, it consists primarily of standing round all day getting cold, in return for maybe 15 minutes of flying. No doubt a great, if chilly, social activity, but that's about it.

[mary meagher]

Monday and Tuesday provided good soaring weather. Alan L. did 360 k, Steve T. managed 500 k, and GP flew 660 k. Visitors from the Oxford Club also achieved great distances, David managed 365.7 on Monday and 302.4 on Tuesday.

No doubt the larger clubs, eg. Dunstable (London), Lasham, Husbands Bosworth did even better.

In the United States, alas, the gliding scene is pretty much as described by some of the disgruntled posters above. Americans find it much more difficult to cooperate in a club environment.

I am no longer young enough or fit enough to fly solo, instruct, tug, or even to attach a winch cable to the belly hook of a glider, but I spent this morning helping out at the launchpoint, there were no thermals, but a good training day, and a lad of 15 did three solos, after a series of practice launch failures.
And on my flight, for the first time I didn't bother to wear a parachute! alas, it didn't make it any easier to struggle out of the seat after landing.

[PA28181]

Urgh how boring! That's not flying, that's driving a bus, and I'd query your assertion that it's what the majority want to do.


I'd query your assertion the majority don't........


https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Data_and_analysis/Datasets/Licence_holders_by_age_and_sex_by_year/Pilot%20licence%20holders%20by%20age%20and%20sex%202015.pdf

[n5296s]

Fascinating data! Must be lonely being the one and only airship pilot.

[JEM60]

Buttonpusher. Hi. I remember that Booker turbulence well, having learn't there much the same time as you!. Stopped at about 200 hours [being a bit selfish family wise!].
To the original poster. Eat, sleep, dream, study flying. When wife or partner etc., goes to bed, sit in the armchhair, practise check lists, fly imaginary circuits, emergencies etc. Totally absorb yourself into this different dimension. It sure makes car driving very ordinary. I remember once doing a radar approach into Luton in solid cloud with an instructor [yes, in a 172... you could do that in those days!] and an hour later, was buying potatoes in High Wycombe market. Two completely different worlds in an hour. ENJOY!!!.

[Heston]

I'd query your assertion the majority don't........


https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Data_and_analysis/Datasets/Licence_holders_by_age_and_sex_by_year/Pilot%20licence%20holders%20by%20age%20and%20sex%202015.pdf

I don't understand how you think that data shows that the majority of leisure pilots are happy with the £200 bacon roll run.
It only lists medical certificate holders, missing out all the self declaration medical pilots on the nppl.
It also doesn't tell you what type of flying they do. Aeros? Further training? Vintage aircraft? Self build?
And since you don't need a licence at all to fly gliders in the UK the data doesn't show most glider pilots (or similarly paramotor pilots).
The leisure flying community is far more varied and interesting than you're suggesting.

[jamesgrainge]

Buttonpusher. Hi. I remember that Booker turbulence well, having learn't there much the same time as you!. Stopped at about 200 hours [being a bit selfish family wise!].
To the original poster. Eat, sleep, dream, study flying. When wife or partner etc., goes to bed, sit in the armchhair, practise check lists, fly imaginary circuits, emergencies etc. Totally absorb yourself into this different dimension. It sure makes car driving very ordinary. I remember once doing a radar approach into Luton in solid cloud with an instructor [yes, in a 172... you could do that in those days!] and an hour later, was buying potatoes in High Wycombe market. Two completely different worlds in an hour. ENJOY!!!.

I always wonder if the days I look up at a prop in the sky and think "I can't believe I do that" will stop. Or even when I fly a 737, will I still look up and be amazed. I really hope so.

[PA28181]

The leisure flying community is far more varied and interesting than you're suggesting.

Don't recall that suggestion:ugh:

The OP asked about training for an EASA PPL and then was advised to take up gliding because apparently all powered flying instruction isn't conducted properly and inferior to gliding skills.

To add insult you consider powered flying is akin to "driving a bus". Like the same A320 Bus's that take you to Benidorm.

If I asked where to learn how to get a M/C licence I presume you would think I should buy a push-bike as it is a far superior skill set I would get, and a much more interesting and varied thing to do on two wheels.

Thats my lot with this well drifted thread..

[n5296s]

+1 for @PA28181

[Heston]

Don't recall that suggestion:ugh:

The OP asked about training for an EASA PPL and then was advised to take up gliding because apparently all powered flying instruction isn't conducted properly and inferior to gliding skills.

To add insult you consider powered flying is akin to "driving a bus". Like the same A320 Bus's that take you to Benidorm..

I said the £200 bacon roll run was like driving a bus. There is much more to power flying than that. And I'm not a glider pilot, I'm a power flying instructor which is how i know that gliding experience tends to sharpen handling skills.


I get disappointed by people who undersell flying in all its forms, which is how your posts read to me.

And it's buses, not Bus's. Are you a greengrocer?

[jamesgrainge]

james grainge.

In the days, long - long ago, when you could walk onto the concourse of a passenger airline terminal without a ticket, and a long time before there was security.

I was walking around the airport, just looking at planes.

I remember thinking to myself as an passenger airline Boeing 727 crew disembarked, how much I'd like to do that for a living.

Then I looked up to the other side of the airport, and saw the Boeing 727 that I was Captain on, and realized that in fact, that's what I did do for a living.

The passion has never died. From day one to today. It's the only thing I've ever wanted to do.

As an aircraft spotter in the UK in the 70s. I used to go cycling around airports and airshows with a Jamie. I thought the last name was Grainge, or something like that.
I was told he had also done it, and was flying HS125s, 25 years ago.

Wouldn't by any chance be you would it?

Sadly although that sounds like an amazing time I was not born until almost 15 years later! I am a mere PPL student with many hours to go until I can consider myself a commercial pilot. I just hope that never dies. It's an unusual thing that people who fly feel about planes and the whole process.

Sadly a lot of advice to the wannabes on the forum is derived from some very jaded pilots, as well as some who are simply the best pilots in the world and forget what it is like to be a poor youngster with a dream. Which is sad to see. Best advice I can give anyone starting out with this forum, take things with a bit of salt, and do research from independent sources.

[mary meagher]

The original poster of this thread was being advised not to pay for an entire course up front because flying schools can close down, and often do.

And he was advised to get his aviation medical up front just in case there was any problem with his health, before he had spent his money on flying lessons.

Excellent advice. And PA28181 of London who has experienced glider flying, and didn't enjoy it, commented that "gliders don't go anywhere except around in circles" and "you can stand around all day freezing". I think the flights I have mentioned that took place at Shenington on Monday and Tuesday, of more than 600 k, would indicate that gliders certainly do go places, if you are good enough.

James Grainge on post 31 asks "do glider hours count toward the PPL"?
They used to, in the UK, when I got my PPL I had a Silver C cross country in gliding, that's 50 k, and only needed a few hours of power training, so saved a lot of ££ doing it that way. I am not sure what the regulations are these days....
In the US of A, glider hours DO NOT COUNT! Or they didn't when I presented them as part of my UK PPL to the GADO in Orlando....fortunately the official kindly gave me an American license anyway, and I did the IR in Texas. The only thing in flying power that gave me a problem was RT.

[Crash one]

Mary
I don't think the phrase "gliders don't go anywhere" was meant to mean a lack of duration or range.
Gliders can and have travelled vast distances and remained airborne longer than powered aircraft. Yes.
But and this is the big But, you cannot climb into a glider and take off, set course in a direction chosen three days ago, fly to a pre-planned destination 300 nm away, land, do whatever you wish for two days and fly home at your convenience.
Your 600k distance depends on where the lift is, where and what the weather is doing.
I don't recall many gliders departing Portmoak for a fly out to Eshott or Fishburn or Carlisle for a day trip.
So let's get the distance thing into perspective ref: "don't go anywhere".
Gliding will teach you stick and rudder skills because to stay airborne as long as possible without power you need to fly the aircraft accurately, "ball in the middle etc" and it is a good thing to learn those skills for fuel saving if nothing else.
During a PFL once, I turned into a hill and after a bit of "rock polishing" in a Cessna 152 to plus 100ft I was rewarded with " bloody glider pilots!" But I still couldn't "go anywhere" except to a better choice of field and then only because the hill happened to be there.
Gliding is a way of life, a dedication, team sport, and requires a minimum of winch/tug driver, hooker up, wing tip runner/signaller to get one pilot airborne.
I can drive to my a/c, pull it out, kick the tyres, push the button and go, severely frowned upon activity at a gliding club.
Rant mode off.

[mary meagher]

Crash one, I bet you never did, actually (crash one, that is). You read like an experienced and sensible power pilot.

But to suggest that a PPL with limited experience and hours can jump in his a/c, kick the tyres, push the button, and go.....good grief! Did he check the weather, that guy? has he planned his route? has he filed a flight plan? if not his a/c, has it recently come out of a mechanic's tender care (in that case, defintely beware!) Like me, you are retired, own (I used to) your own baby, and look after it with loving attention. And know its every feature, quirk, panel, limitations, etc etc.

How many PPL with low hours simply can't wait to load up the wife, the kids, or the girlfriend and impress them with his skill as a pilot - when he has less than 500 hours, would you trust the newby with your wife and kids? If he is flying his own light aircraft for business, can he resist the pressure of business though the forecast is crap?

You don't have to look far in the reports to find examples.

[Crash one]

I wouldn't dare suggest that a newbie PPL should do as I can do, being a public forum it may be dangerous to even mention such activity.
How many newbie pilots have crashed into their girlfriends garden whilst showing off?
So for the benefit of the newbie, I am in my house, I have checked the weather, clear sunshine, little wind, TAFs and Metars locally and as far as I need to, Notams noted as required, self propelled maintenance up to scratch, the fuel was topped off last weekend, the aircraft is alone in the hangar, doors locked, unless some turd has broken in, in which case that will be addressed in due course, a pre-flight inspection will be performed anyway.
A line will be drawn/plotted on Runway HD if the intended route is outside my 60nm radius. PPR will be obtained if necessary, etc etc. Good enough?
Actually "Crash one" was a call sign I was once required to use ref: those big red vehicles seen on airfields, I hope you never have dealings with them!

[Crash one]

Button push'
I would agree with all that. Unfortunately the over regulated, stuffed shirt, head up their ass UK would never recognise any amount of flying, training or not, in Daddies Piper cub. The only thing recognised here is an official training establishment.
I went solo in a T21 glider in 1956. Excercise 14 (first solo, there can only be one of those?) I then went solo in another T21 in 1983, excercise 14 (2)
Next in a Cessna 152 1986, excercise 14 (3). Finally in another 152 in 2006 excercise 14 (4).
You cannot buck the system. Give in, go with the flow, sod them all!
It's less painful than banging your head on the wall.
If I had told an instructor I had done this before, I would be treated as a jumped up know it all.
I tried once, never again!

[Crash one]

Sorry I'm not being very clear. Of course Piper cub training is perfectly acceptable in the UK. There are flying schools that teach on them. However if you were to mention at many flying schools that you had XXX hours of flying Piper Cubs with your father, I don't think they would be interested in the fact that you just might be capable of flying one.
Not, I might add that the CAA should be expected to credit that time for the issue of a licence, just that the flying school should respect that you are not a raw, dumb, useless rookie that has never seen an aeroplane before.
When I went to the flying school to begin the PPL course I was current on gliders, I had a share in a single seater, I mentioned that to two instructors, I didn't make a big deal about it, nor expect special treatment, but to start the lessons with demonstrating "basic primary effects of controls" I thought was a bit much. But I said no more and just went with the flow.
No doubt I'll come across here as some kind of smart ass.

[Heston]

[QUOTE=Crash one;9750671
When I went to the flying school to begin the PPL course I was current on gliders, I had a share in a single seater, I mentioned that to two instructors, I didn't make a big deal about it, nor expect special treatment, but to start the lessons with demonstrating "basic primary effects of controls" I thought was a bit much. But I said no more and just went with the flow.
No doubt I'll come across here as some kind of smart ass.[/QUOTE]

Not a smart ass, Crash, but you need to see it from the instructors point of view. They will have had previous students claiming all sorts of experience that turned out to be invention. Working properly through the syllabus is the only way to make sure it all gets covered. Of course your progress would have been rapid given your previous experience.