Long range SAR Top Cover

[wotan]

Evening All,


As I retired MPA driver in the Irish Air Corps (CN235) I find it hard to see the service the IAC provides to the to the Irish Coast Guard and other MRCCs affected by MOD mismanagement . The inability of MOD to come up with retention policies has seen a constant trickle of experience leave the force. The service is now reduced to 0800-1800 hrs due to staff shortages in both ATC and aircrew.

My question to the wider maritime community is what arrangements are in place for UK SAR Top Cover post Nimrod? Is a commercial Top Cover provider seen now as a better/worse solution? There is a push now to civilianise all maritime fishery, SAR and Top Cover patrol ops in ireland

Myself and many former colleagues are all very disappointed :mad::mad: on this side of the water to see our forces mismanaged to the point where they could not respond to the SAR Top cover request on the night of the tragic events in Blacksod bay


thanks for your opinions.

[MSOCS]

Watch this space and see what P-8 provides perhaps.

C-130 provide an ability to drop SAR equipment to survivors at range but this tends to be reactionary rather than an accompanying top cover.

[[email protected]]

Wotan - have a look at the Irish CG SAR S92 thread on Rotorheads.

[wotan]

Thanks I've been following the thread on rotorheads- just wanted to get an idea of the setup these days for UK SAR

[Davef68]

Both C-130 and E-3 have provided top cover for various incidents.

[stilton]

Can the P8 drop survival equipment, rafts etc ? was the Nimrod able to do this ?

[cokecan]

Nimrod could, the P-8 has a bomb bay, so it can drop stuff - how big that stuff is, and how expensive to redesign and replace the existing gear dropped by Nimrod and C-130 is a matter for debate.

everything from Blackrock would suggest that something catastrophic and entirely fatal happened to R116, and that topcover could been overhead 10 seconds after the aircraft went into the water and the result would have been the same. that does not however mean that the IAC does not have a very serious problem in needing some 6 hours to find enough air and groundcrew to launch a single aircraft.

[Arclite01]

The MoD blurb on the website says the P-8 will provide a SAR capability...........

read into that what you will. I assume Top Cover and Co-ordination rather than physical dropping of survival packs etc............

Arc

[[email protected]]

I don't know what arrangements are in place between HMCG and MoD now for top cover - it was straightforward when SAR was mainly military as the ARCCK could just call out the Nimrod or standby Herc.

[Sandy Parts]

and don't forget the Nimrod 'cover' was only provided by MoD to help the UK Govt ICAO requirements (coverage out to 10W) because we already had a jet on standby for another task. I guess that 'service' will be up for negotiation once again assuming the 'other task' standby aircraft is also going to be available..

[[email protected]]

The UK SRR goes out a lot further than 10W - I've been to 17W in a Sea King at max range but the outer boundary is 30W.

I think 10W is the limit of the Irish SRR.

[Sandy Parts]

been a while since I had to think about it - looks like on here Base Locations - bristowgroup.com (http://bristowgroup.com/uk-sar/base-locations/) is is out to 15W - suspect that is just a convenient cut-off for the diagram though... Googling for the definitive answer doesn't seem to return the ICAO master document that I can see. Suspect someone with the latest copy of the IAMSAR guide can fill us in.

[Sandy Parts]

aha - The UK area of responsibility
for SAR covers approximately
half of the North Sea and the
English Channel and extends
out to 30°W. Note that the
Republic of Ireland has its own
Search and Rescue Region
(SRR).
There is a small variation in
the Maritime and Aeronautical
SSRs in the far North. The
large Westerly extent is
intended to provide SAR cover
for passenger aircraft en route
to or from the United States of
America.

from here - https://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/media/501906/km-in-hs-safety-032011-a-review-of-uk-search-and-rescue-provision-for-offshore-renewable-energy-projects.pdf page 23

Looks like a good read for those involved in SAR. Some good maps of the planned Offshore Energy installations

[ancientaviator62]

Certainly the RAF Hercules in my day could drop what we called the 'Lindholme'
kit comprising linked liferaft and containers. I have also dropped the a/c ELFAK first aid kit to a distressed sailor !

[Winchweight]

C130 still has an ASRA capability and the A400M is currently trialling it.

[ShotOne]

Does "top cover" really bring anything to the table these days? If someone's in the water off uk coast it will soon be a recovery rather than a rescue operation unless a helicopter lifts them out

[Sandy Parts]

depends on what you mean by 'top-cover'? You'd have to ask the Sea King boys if they valued our presence on 'edge of range' trips. I know we got thanks on more that a few occasions when we could assist with updating vessel positions and even establishing comms in fluent franglais or spanglish ;) Also ask the all-female round the world yacht crew who had useful supplies dropped to them from an MR2 handily on detachment nearby. In most cases, I'd say top-cover is maybe not 'essential' but certainly 'useful'

[steamchicken]

What's the reason for the "small variation in the far North"?

[Al-bert]

You'd have to ask the Sea King boys

Sandy Parts - as an ex Brawdy 'boy' in the pre Shannon S61 and IAC Dauphin, even pre Crab days, I can categorically vouch for the warm cosy feeling of a Nimrod top cover - on occasion out to 280 nm from Eire. It gets mighty lonely out there with a twelve mtr swell and waves as big as houses! I also once received a radar let down to cloud break, from a friendly Nimrod, following the rescue in cloud, of a light aircraft pilot who'd crashed near the summit of Heaval on the Isle of Barra - but that's a Wessex tale! Heartfelt thanks to all you guys :ok:

[Sandy Parts]

Cheers Al-bert - we always went a bit quiet on board when working out your PLE on those long-range ops. Almost felt guilty about keeping warm and cosy with a chicken curry or three while you guys were doing the brave stuff down below :ok:

[Al-bert]

Don't feel too guilty Sandy, we had hot cans, pot noodles and access to Shannon Airport duty free, or Cork Country Club night stops with free pints of Murphy's, on the way home! :ok:

[Avtur]

access to Shannon Airport duty free, or Cork Country Club night stops with free pints of Murphy's, on the way home!

And well deserved too.

[Al-bert]

And well deserved too.

why, thank you Sir! :ok:

[[email protected]]

Almost felt guilty about keeping warm and cosy with a chicken curry or three while you guys were doing the brave stuff down below just a few minutes of bravish stuff perhaps - for the main part it was 'I spy with my little eye something beginning with W' - 'Is it wave again skipper?' and watching the fuel and T's and P's like a hawk:)

[ShotOne]

Having landed at Barra in all sorts of weather I don't recall "radar cloud break from another aircraft" being an approved procedure. What could possibly go wrong? (Safer, and certainly cheaper to use Barra NDB or Tiree VOR - just a suggestion!)
That aside, sadly, "warm fuzzy" doesn't count much at procurement time without clear evidence of increased capability ...Not wanting to labour the point, but it does cut to the heart of the OP's question

[Al-bert]

Having landed at Barra in all sorts of weather I don't recall "radar cloud break from another aircraft" being an approved procedure. What could possibly go wrong?


Not as much as might have gone wrong in hover taxying back down the way we'd come from 50ft above sea level, guided by a search party of locals (who'd found the stricken wreck near the summit of Heaval) and guided us up the mountain by waving of jackets (theirs) but who'd now rightly left the scene - besides which, hover taxying up hill is marginally easier than down hill - and it was our job after all and at least it was day light. The casualty survived - just.

[ShotOne]

Why ever would you want to hover taxi DOWN a mountain after safely recovering the casualty? No, actually no need to answer that; I'm genuinely in awe of SAR stuff without pretending to understand it Even in a similarly tight spot today tho, I'm struggling to see what "top cover" lends to a gps and enhanced vision equipped heli

[Al-bert]

ShotOne - when the gear box dumps it's oil or the nasty vibrations get worse, and you're 200+ miles from land, it's nice to know that someone will be able to either drop Lindholme gear (or its modern equiv) or a wreath!

[wotan]

thanks for all the feedback guys, It was always my opinion when serving that the CHC guys always appreciated a CASA overhead when out on a long range job, simple things like an updated ship position, advanced notice to the vessel to stear a certain bearing and all other support functions always went down well with the operating SAR crew. The situation in the Irish Air Corps at present is it's been reduced to a 0800-1800 service due to serious retirements over the last year of ATC personnel and experienced aircrew, No retention policy in place from DOD to stem the flow of retirements with the resultant inability to respond to SAR requests. Shocking state of affairs really. I guess nobody will be held accountable and the usual Spin fed out is that CHC provide their own heli top cover- that might be fine on a summers evening but not mid winter in a gale with low cloud base and icing.

Desk jockeys running down the service seems a trend that's affecting many military forces

😭😭😭

[MFC_Fly]

ShotOne - when the gear box dumps it's oil or the nasty vibrations get worse, and you're 200+ miles from land, it's nice to know that someone will be able to either drop Lindholme gear (or its modern equiv) or a wreath!
Or if you suddenly ditch when at low level and 200nm out into the Atlantic, without the chance to get out a distress call (due to time or poor HF atmospherics), it's always nice to know there is someone close by to alert the authorities as well as do the above ;)

[Al-bert]

Or if you suddenly ditch when at low level and 200nm out into the Atlantic, without the chance to get out a distress call (due to time or poor HF atmospherics), it's always nice to know there is someone close by to alert the authorities as well as do the above ;)

MFC_Fly sorry, of course, that too - I was just tired of answering inane questions re usefulness of 'Top Cover' by people who've never been there :ok:

[ShotOne]

All this really proves is that it's probably not helpful to merge the concept of top cover with the OP's rightful anger at current issues within Irish SAR.

I will always have immense respect for the outstanding courage and professionalism of SAR crew but since you've chosen to be rude, Albert, it must be pointed out that almost all your responses to my "inane" question have been overtaken by the march of technology; are comms relays/HF coverage really relevant in the SATCOM era, ditto for radar updates vs. marine AIS? Discussing this with a civilian SAR union colleague, he said that he'd love "top cover" ...but had never taken part in a rescue in which it played a part.

[Al-bert]

All this really proves is that it's probably not helpful to merge the concept of top cover with the OP's rightful anger at current issues within Irish SAR.

I will always have immense respect for the outstanding courage and professionalism of SAR crew but since you've chosen to be rude, Albert, it must be pointed out that almost all your responses to my "inane" question have been overtaken by the march of technology; are comms relays/HF coverage really relevant in the SATCOM era, ditto for radar updates vs. marine AIS? Discussing this with a civilian SAR union colleague, he said that he'd love "top cover" ...but had never taken part in a rescue in which it played a part.

Sure, in this perfectly advanced technological age where comms are always dependable and machinery never goes wrong you are probably right ShotOne - I stand corrected :ugh:

[[email protected]]

Discussing this with a civilian SAR union colleague, he said that he'd love "top cover" ...but had never taken part in a rescue in which it played a part.So you would rather take the opinion of someone else who hasn't done a long range job in the Atlantic (North or South) against the advice of those of us who have done both.

Modern comms aren't anything like as good as you seem to believe and an accurately updated position from a top-cover asset can save a lot of time when fuel is at a premium.

[Al-bert]

So you would rather take the opinion of someone else who hasn't done a long range job in the Atlantic (North or South) against the advice of those of us who have done both.

Modern comms aren't anything like as good as you seem to believe and an accurately updated position from a top-cover asset can save a lot of time when fuel is at a premium.

Hey Crab, what's this SAR Union? I missed out on joining that - have I ever told you about my SAR job to S Georgia btw? :ok:

[sycamore]

Al-bert,do tell,dates ,times etc..

Sorry ,it`s past Al-berts` bed-time......

[Al-bert]

Just for you Sycamore!

Al-bert,do tell,dates ,times etc..

Sorry ,it`s past Al-berts` bed-time......

13 Jan 1988. Launched to RV with RFA Blue Rover (BR) 200nm east of Stanley to pick up an injured soldier (Captain) with severe head injuries at Grytviken. Flew 450nm round trip BR-BR and launched back to KEMH 350nm east of FI. 10hrs total 1 hr night, 1 hr actual.

Bed time - what's that?

PS and grateful for top cover from Albert!

[ShotOne]

"Hasn't done a long range job..". Did you really intend to sound so arrogant Albert? How could you possibly know whether that's the case or not?

No, not a SAR union but pilots union BALPA which I'm delighted to say many current SAR crew (pilots and rear crew) have chosen to join. Indeed latest members mag front-page has impressive deck-level shot of S92 in action.

[Al-bert]

"Hasn't done a long range job..". Did you really intend to sound so arrogant Albert?

Get your facts right ShotOne - it was Crab who said that! :E

ps - what exactly do you find impressive about the (admittedly) pretty photo of an S92, with winchman dangling, over a calm sea?

[ShotOne]

-yes it was crab that said it, I stand corrected.

And maybe I'm
Just easily impressed! ps. Even if we were to agree top cover as being a total necessity, the point is moot in light of limited options in that area (see MPA thread)

[Avtur]

2077

Teamwork at its best. (unlike the movies, there was a real camera to take that shot!). Oh, and we dropped the ASR too.

Photo courtesy of S.S (42/8)

[Al-bert]

-yes it was crab that said it, I stand corrected.

And maybe I'm
Just easily impressed! ps. Even if we were to agree top cover as being a total necessity, the point is moot in light of limited options in that area (see MPA thread)

For the last time from me ShotOne, I never said top cover was a 'total necessity', just that it was good to have.

So much has been lost from UK defence estate (in which I would firmly include SAR) through cheese paring by successive Govts. Shiny new helicopters (which incidentally I'm not so sure are best for the job and are fundamentally provided to make profits for shareholders) do not make up for everything that has been lost.

[ShotOne]

Necessary or good to have, either way we mostly don't have it now!

The focus of my original question was on what additional capability would be brought by a top cover MPA over and above that of a modern SAR helo. Clearly you've interpreted it as a demand that a lone helicopter ought to be sent off to do its own thing without back up; perhaps I ought to have worded it more precisely. I have since learned that at the time of the tragedy, Rescue 116 (an S92) was in fact acting as top cover. This surely tends to confirm that there is no issue of capability? Alternatively, is it being suggested that the fact it was performing this role (because of the IAC crewing issue) was in some way contributory to the accident?

[wotan]

Necessary or good to have, either way we mostly don't have it now!

The focus of my original question was on what additional capability would be brought by a top cover MPA over and above that of a modern SAR helo. Clearly you've interpreted it as a demand that a lone helicopter ought to be sent off to do its own thing without back up; perhaps I ought to have worded it more precisely. I have since learned that at the time of the tragedy, Rescue 116 (an S92) was in fact acting as top cover. This surely tends to confirm that there is no issue of capability?

In my experience of crewing SAR top cover in a CN235 off the west coast the ability to provide accurate target ship positions and vector to the vessel was always appreciated as well as advanced radio contact with the target vessel to prepare for a lift, not to mention providing comms relay to base station and all other operational support functions. I'm sure all this can be provided by another rotary Cab but whereas a FW asset can be pretty much garaunteed to launch in all wx I'm not sure this is the same for RW. Maybe some RW drivers could enlighten us but it was always my perception that launching into icing conditions high level IMC for a chopper was not a good idea??

And relating this back to my original post the status quo for the Irish Coast Guard now is they provide their own Top Cover because the Irish Air Corps cannot routinely support outside 1800hrs only in the most extremis emergency conditions (getting people out of their beds ad hoc to respond) - this being as a result of severe personnel shortages. Years ago when I served we had a 24/7 response within 2 hours. Typically doing 10 Top covers a year!

Bean counters have a lot to answer for