Poor English RT

[luvly jubbly]

Pilots' poor English risks 'serious accident' in UK skies, warns CAA (http://news.sky.com/story/pilots-poor-english-risks-serious-accident-in-uk-skies-warns-caa-10823230)

But the report said it found there were enough non-UK pilots and controllers with below-standard English skills to give "grounds to suspect cheating on aviation English exams".

Not a major surprise.......

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDqZy4deDI

One of the famous ones. Air China 981 KJFK

[Kewbick]

A recent, (March 17th), fatal mid-air collision over St. Hubert, Quebec, involving two Cessna 150 training aircraft piloted by Chinese nationals may be attributed to a limited comprehension of English.

[Uplinker]

But it's OK 'cos the tickets are cheap for the passengers :hmm:

Re the youtube clip of 981; Yes, very poor english, but an even poorer attitude from ATC. Instead of trying to help a confused aviator, the ATC guy immediately gets pissed off and starts raising his voice and he clearly thinks that he is talking to an imbecile.

Very unprofessional ATC.

[darkroomsource]

Ever flown into Kennedy? or listed to ATC around Kennedy?
I would estimate that about a dozen, or more, flights were delayed as a result of this conversation. That's probably what the controller was upset about, the fact that he could not be doing his job for the other 10 to 15 planes that were needing handling.

[Flocks]

I don't have a lot of experience of flight over usa, but as foreigner (level 6, working in uk), it was sometime hard for me to understand non ICAO clerance used by some controller and when I said "say again", the answer was same clearance, even faster ...

Oh and you can be English native and be confused with your left/right ...

So I agree, there are pilot cheating about their English test (used to fly east of europe, and some Russian captain were a joke about English ...)
But ATC from native is not always helping (I found ATC in Uk really pro)

[Basil]

Ever flown into Kennedy? or listed to ATC around Kennedy?
I would estimate that about a dozen, or more, flights were delayed as a result of this conversation. That's probably what the controller was upset about, the fact that he could not be doing his job for the other 10 to 15 planes that were needing handling.
No excuse for the controller speaking the way he did.
.

[gtseraf]

Flocks, you are spot on.

I ply my trade around SE Asia and cringe when I hear certain native English speaking pilots use very non ICAO phraseology, one can hear the confusion in the ATC's voice. I understand a very large country in the US continent does not use ICAO standard phraseology. This creates a problem when non English speakers encounter this kind of phraseology, from ATC or pilots. Not saying either is right or wrong, just time the world aligned itself COMPLETELY with ONE standard?

I have also seen non English speaking candidates, studying for their English certificate. They are basically provided with standard phrases etc, to pass the test but their practical English is very poor (some of them, NOT all). Possibly a change to the testing system is necessary. Make it more practical and less of a box ticking exercise?

[RexBanner]

I flew with a couple of guys at Wizz who I'm 100% convinced paid a backhander to somebody to get ELP4 on their licence. These were people who understood basic ATC instructions such as headings, climbs and descents but as soon as anything deviated from the norm they had no idea whatsoever what was being communicated.

[ve3id]

So I agree, there are pilot cheating about their English test and some Russian captain were a joke about English ...)


This is not the way people with level 6 English speak! We make the verbs and subjects agree!

[Herod]

Come on. he's writing it, not speaking it.
On the same subject I've had a FO (native-born English) confuse a controller (also native-born English) at a major UK international by the use of non-standard phrases. When the controller queried what was meant, the same non-standard phrase was repeated. Not until I gave the correct phrase was understanding restored.

[clunckdriver]

Oh boy, you should listen to CYHU and other fields in Canada with large numbers of foreign students, its simply amazing that the Nav Canada controllers manage! When training in the RCAF we had fourteen nationalities at one field, all had been given "Standard NATO English" courses,{by the RCAF} with three hundred students it worked like a charm, on top of this English was the compulsory language when conversing between students, within three months all were totally fluent.

[Denim and leather]

Perhaps a mitigating circumstance for the crew; Beijin-New York is a long leg
fatigue was an aditionnal factor with the low level F/O English speaking, pilot probably with low hours.

[luvly jubbly]

How does any of the above mitigate poor RT?

[unb5]

Agree the problem is with practical English , there is not enough background in the vocabulary . As well , when dealing with 200 hour wannabe , how much could one expect in Europe and/or Asia .

[luvly jubbly]

The CAA report suggest the problem is not only practical English. Pilots being given ELP4 and above without being able to speak or understand basic aviation English.

As with many other aspects of aviation safety, corners are being blatantly cut for financial reasons in all corners of the world.

[FlightDetent]

ICAO Annex 10 Volume II Communications Procedures
ICAO PANS-ATM Doc. 4444 - chapter Phraseologies

In my experience confusion begins when people attempt to use language outside of the English RT phrases. For a long time, and becoming an unlikeable purist, it seems to me that you do not really need any more than included in the above. I.e. instead of thinking how to say, think what to say first.

When I started internationally we had a saying in our class that all is OK and we normally manage mostly ok, as long as the ATC and other traffic restrain themselves from using the local language. And the biggest headache was not the Spanish, neither French. Anybody care to guess?

[Icelanta]

Sorry but US ATC is often Piss Poor.
It is mainly the Americans who need to start learning and using ICAO standard phraseology.
Worst ATC discipline is coming from thenYanks, bar none.
If I were the China Airlines Captain, I would severely tell off this controller. He is there to assist and improve the safety of the crew, not the other way around. :ugh:

[CloudHound]

Spotted this today which I'm sure will spark a lively discussion.
http://news.sky.com/story/pilots-poor-english-risks-serious-accident-in-uk-skies-warns-caa-10823230

[Piltdown Man]

There is no excuse for that controller's behaviour. Simple instructions, spoken clearly and slowly like "Hold present posiition. Await further clearance" would have bought him time to send in a Follow Me car. But no. He played the big shouty man. :mad:

And while we are here, the Sky News article was a bit 'fact lite'. Such as were all of these miscommunications with pilots with English as an additional language? Probably not. But don't let the facts get in the way of a consultant on a government contract. There's some serious milking and CV building to be done here.

[FlightDetent]

:) We used to have a saying that working the RT is ok, as long as - wherever you are actually flying to - they do not start using local language. For instance, the UK.

[Chesty Morgan]

...and when I said "say again", the answer was same clearance, even faster ...

Say again, slowly. ;)

[noflynomore]

use language outside of the English RT phrases and becoming an unlikeable purist, it seems to me that

you should not be using that hideous abomination "outside of".

Nothing unlikeable about being a purist either; being correct is seldom wrong, being wrong is seldom correct. ;)

[FlightDetent]

"restrain to" VS. "refrain from" seems the bigger flop. :)