Cessna 152 Take off Procedure

[mkqq]

Hi all,

I'm suddenly confused by something that I thought I knew all these years. I'm asking now as tomorrow I will be doing my first introductory flight in a Cessna 152.

When rotating to take off, I've always thought that you would pull the yoke back until the plane reaches a certain angle of attach (say 15º), and then slowly release the yoke back to its center position, and the plane will climb at the 15ºC angle.

I thought that if I continue to hold the yoke back, the plane's nose would keep on rising and either stall, or flip over on itself backwards.

The same applies to turning, i.e. I thought you would turn the yoke until a certain bank angle is reached, release the yoke back into the centre position, and the plane would keep on turning at that angle. If you continue to hold the yoke at that angle, the plane would completely roll over.

But I just realise I may be wrong from watching Youtube videos? It seems during take off, one will need to continue to hold the yoke back for the plane to climb, unless pitch trim is used.

I am totally confused now and nervous about my flight tomorrow.

Could someone please clarify?

Many thanks

[tobster911]

Hi mkqq,

If it's an introductory flight, I wouldn't worry as your instructor will do this for you.

However, this is not the case, you can often relax a little bit, but you'll still need to keep the yoke in the position, otherwise, the aircraft's nose will start to drop. Similarly, in a turn, if you go back to centre, the aircraft will roll level, as by it's nature, it wants to stay straight and level.

Also, on take off, you will generally want to achieve either best rate of climb (Vy), or best angle (Vx). Vx will allow you to climb to an altitude in the shortest horizontal distance, but is a slow way of doing it. Vy will allow you to climb to an altitude in the shortest space of time, but a longer horizontal distance. We usually use Vx where I fly to avoid obstruction, but as you are at a steeper angle, it is more dangerous as you fly closer to the stall threshold.

[chevvron]

Your instructor on your introductory flight will brief you on this.
Different aircraft require different lift off techniques; personally with a 152 doing a normal (flapless) takeoff I prefer ( and it is my personal preference) to pull the yoke back just slightly aft of neutral as I begin to roll and the aircraft will then lift off when it is ready.
With a Shadow you MUST pull the sidestick right back as you begin to roll and when the nosewheel lifts, you push it slightly forward to keep it off the ground and once again, it flies off when it is ready.

[tobster911]

Most importantly, in something like a 152 on takeoff, it would be near impossible for it to flip over back on itself. They have very docile handling, and if it was near a stall, your instructor a) shouldn't really be conducting introductory flights and b) would correct it. The stall doesn't *just* happen, there's plenty of warning from the aircraft and its systems.

Above all, don't be nervous. Relax and enjoy it. Are you thinking of doing your license?

[Heston]

I thought that if I continue to hold the yoke back, the plane's nose would keep on rising and either stall, or flip over on itself backwards.

The same applies to turning, i.e. I thought you would turn the yoke until a certain bank angle is reached, release the yoke back into the centre position, and the plane would keep on turning at that angle. If you continue to hold the yoke at that angle, the plane would completely roll over.



This is confusing and top marks for noticing. The pitch control and the roll control actually do work slightly differently.
If you turn the yoke and hold it turned then the bank will continue to increase, as you say.
But the fore and aft movement of the yoke works differently in the way it controls pitch attitude. You have to keep it where you've moved it to in order to maintain the new angle of attack. If you release the pressure on the yoke it will return to its first place and the pitch attitude will return to its original attitude. Do the same in roll however and the bank angle is maintained.

It sounds odd and I've simplified it a bit but in practice it's easy once you get the feel for it.

Ask the instructor to show you. You'll enjoy seeing what i mean.

Incidentally aeroplanes are more stable in the air than you think. Mostly they fly themselves.

[Momoe]

Agree with Chevvron, always seemed good practice to pull a little and unload the nosewheel and let it fly off when it reaches the right airspeed.

Nose gear failures are relatively common on most training types compared to main gear, anything that reduces nose gear loading won't do any harm.

Don't worry about how the controls affect the handling, once the instructor hands over to you, you will be making small movements and getting the feel of the plane. Nothing happens in a hurry and you'll find that it's a lot easier than you think.

Above all, enjoy!

[bingofuel]

Initially do not over analyse it, just use whatever control input you need to achieve the attitude you want the aircraft to be in.

Just remember "power + attitude = performance"

[460]

Fascinating question mkqq; thanks.
There are buckets of expertise here, but not many offering your fresh viewpoint.
Please, could you let us know how you got on?
You have a world of airborne adventure ahead of you.

[n5296s]

Interesting, I'd never thought about this before. For sure a small elevator deflection just changes the angle of attack, while a large (but not enough to stall) deflection results in a loop, or at least the beginning of one. Wonder why? Nothing obvious comes to mind.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

This is confusing and ...
... if you're taking off from 2km of tarmac you might actually relax the back pressure just after take-off and accelerate in ground effect to a decent speed before climbing away, ignoring all this Vx and Vy stuff. Less likely to fall out of the sky due to slow reactions if the engine stops.

[9 lives]

Different aircraft require different lift off techniques; personally with a 152 doing a normal (flapless) takeoff I prefer ( and it is my personal preference) to pull the yoke back just slightly aft of neutral as I begin to roll and the aircraft will then lift off when it is ready.

This.

For sure a small elevator deflection just changes the angle of attack, while a large (but not enough to stall) deflection results in a loop, or at least the beginning of one. Wonder why?

Not really. The elevator deflection required for a loop entry would likely be less than that applied to raise the nose for takeoff. It's the "entry speed" which differs. If you applied the elevator you would use during takeoff at the entry speed for a loop, you would damage the aircraft.

For my 150, and most tricycle aircraft I fly, I will apply and hold full elevator up, and if a crosswind, full into wind aileron, and hold those inputs until the control affect begins (speed increases control effectiveness) and then I will relax the controls toward neutral to maintain the desired aircraft attitude.

[A le Ron]

15° seems a little aggressive to me.

[Heston]

15° seems a little aggressive to me.

And in most aircraft exceeds the critical angle of attack for stalling, so it ain't gonna take off like that...

[mkqq]

Ok I've just done my trial flight. It was really awesome. I was quite nervous in the beginning especially with moderately bumpy conditions due to heat effects and wind, but felt quite comfortable fairly quickly.

To answer my own question... every aircraft is different so there's no definitive answer, which partially explains the range of responses above. In the case of the 152 I felt there was no "definitive" neutral position with the pitch.

On the ground the elevators are actually in a fully down position. When you pull the yoke back to take off, you'll actually have to find the centre position with a combination of the pitch control and trim.

The controls also became a lot easier and smoother as we picked up altitude and speed.

As for turning it did work somewhat like I expected. I would turn the yoke and the plane reaches a certain angle of bank, and I can return the yoke to the center position and the plane would keep turning at that angle. To level out of the turn I need to push the yoke in the other direction.

We did a little aerobatics which I was really nervous about. The instructor did a couple of barrel rolls for me which wasn't as scary as I thought they would be. During the actual roll I didn't feel any g force but I did feel quite a bit when pulling out of the roll.

I was not brave enough to do loops, which I'm now kicking myself for.

Lastly I did really overthink a lot of things. Before we took I asked the instructor about how I handle the yoke when taking off, how I would correct for the slipstream using the rudder etc.... She said I didn't need to worry about any of that. Basically I could have gone in with absolutely zero knowledge of planes and it would still have been perfectly ok.

[fujii]

There you go mkqq, welcome to Pprune. Thirteen answers already. All you need to do now to impress the instructor is start your conversation with "I was reading on the internet...."

[foxmoth]

Basically I could have gone in with absolutely zero knowledge of planes and it would still have been perfectly ok.
Something instructors are frequently faced with!

[scifi]

Hi MKQQ, one thing that has not been mentioned yet, is the effect of the Max Throttle used for Take-Off.


Previously.. In the cruise, you have trimmed the aircraft for level flight at about 80% power. So you could fly 'hands free' if you wanted. The aircraft is balanced at that speed, power setting, and trim setting.


So if you land and maintain that cruise setting of the Trimmer, when you want to take-off, you apply Full Power and the plane will naturally want to climb. All you have to do is give it one little pull on the column to get the friction of the wheels off the ground (when the speed is right.) It should then climb all on its own.
When you reach your cruise altitude, just reduce the throttle to 80% and the plane will continue straight and level.


It is a bit counter-intuitive that the throttle can control the rate of climb or descent.
The control column will alter the speed... Just remember... It's forward to go faster, backward to go slower, and fully back will get you to the stall speed. (so avoid fully back..!)
.

[cotterpot]

(so avoid fully back..!) ..except when taxiing, when it is definitely required to protect the prop from damage by stones etc.
Well it is on our airfield.

Enjoy.

[9 lives]

and fully back will get you to the stall speed. (so avoid fully back..!)

Well..... not absolutely...

It is certainly possible to stall an aircraft accidentally, or deliberately, with the controls not all the way back. The application of pitch control, and resulting effect on what the aircraft does are dependent upon many factors, which all inter relate.

(so avoid fully back..!)

..except when taxiing, when it is definitely required to protect the prop from damage by stones etc.
Well it is on our airfield.

Very much so! Controls fully back while taxiing, and at application of power for takeoff (then relax as speed builds). In a high wing tricycle Cessna, the proper use of full nose up elevator while taxiing is greatly enhanced by taxiing with 15 degrees of flaps extended. That improves the effectiveness of the tail in raising the nose, by changing the downwash off the wing onto the tail.

Cessna oleo struts and propellers are expensive to repair and replace, so minimize wear and tear on them at all opportunities!

[magyarflyer]

simple way
full power keep direction of flight straight pull yoke back just enough to take the weight of the nose keep that attitude plane will climb when gains speed raise the nose when you feel lift raise gently there you go

[Discorde]

Good luck with your lessons, mkqq. For some background info to help you along, try 'Handling Light Aircraft' by Julien Evans.

[funfly]

mkqq, welcome to the peculiar world of Prune (or whatever you want to call it.
You will get some funny answers on here from people giving conflicting advice to various levels of personal abuse!
Overall it's a good place to be, virtually everyone has an interesting in flying and this common denominator holds us all together.
I find that as the years increase since I last owned an aircraft my knowledge has expanded to the extent that I know virtually everything about flying. I would suggest that I am not the only one on here in this situation ;-)
Good luck with your flying and now you have entered this arena please keep in touch. Tell us how you are progressing because we all had to learn once and we all have made the same stupid mistakes.
FF

[tractorpuller]

So if you land and maintain that cruise setting of the Trimmer, when you want to take-off, you apply Full Power and the plane will naturally want to climb. All you have to do is give it one little pull on the column to get the friction of the wheels off the ground (when the speed is right.) It should then climb all on its own.

Yes, at a slow rate of climb with cruising speed. Fly the correct speeds for a given situation, climb, cruise, approach, landing and then trim accordingly. I see lots of people making life harder for themselves by not trimming properly.

Stick back when taxiing? Yes, but please take the wind into account. It doesn't make much sense taxiing with the yoke or stick pulled fully back with a 20 knot wind from behind...

Use of controls on the ground on a windy day. "Climb into, dive away"

[rarelyathome]

Previously. In the cruise, you have trimmed the aircraft for level flight at about 80% power. So you could fly 'hands free' if you wanted. The aircraft is balanced at that speed, power setting, and trim setting.


So if you land and maintain that cruise setting of the Trimmer,

As has been said, you will get all sorts of advice on here. Mine, and this is something I try to instill into my students, is to trim for the correct approach speed. You shouldn't be trimmed for cruise when you are landing. I'm sure your instructor will make it all clear so listen to him or her.

Enjoy your flying :)

[funfly]

Me with a sensible hat on:
The secret of flying a training Cessna or Piper is speed and position. Be at the right speed in the right position and it will all fit into place, especially true in circuits and landing. Trim all the times if possible.
I started off in microlights where things are less precise and it took me a long time to understand the importance of the above points with group A aircraft.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The secret to being a good pilot.

The most important lesson in your entire flying career up and including being a Captain on a Jumbo jet, is the first one; "attitudes and movements"

To be able to fly you must be able to recognize what attitude the aircraft is in. Attitude is the orientation of the airplane with respect to the earth (eg level ,tilted up, tilted down, on tilted to one side).

Most people think you do this by looking at the instruments but in fact the best way is to look at the natural horizon (where the earth and sky appear to meet) through the windshield. With a little bit of practice you can make a very fine and virtually instant determination of the aircraft's attitude by what you see looking ahead

Once you recognize the attitude you then need to know how to manipulate the controls to smoothly go from one attitude to another such as from cruise flight attitude to a nose up attitude when you want to climb.

Everything you learn after that first lesson of attitudes and movements will be applying those principals.

Make sure you understand the concepts and ask your instructor to revisit them if you are struggling to recognize what attitude the aircraft is in or how to move from one to the other

As a very experienced instructor I was frequently asked to help out students who were not progressing. The first thing I did for each one was to go back and review attitudes and movements. Invariably I found a weak or even non existent ability of the student to rapidly recognize what attitude the aircraft was in. This unfortunately was usually caused by instructors going through the foundation air exercises too quickly.

[RAT 5]

mkqq: your thoughts on elevator position regarding defection to rotate and then centralise might be formed from flying a moveable stabiliser a/c. You deflect a small surface = elevator then trim out the whole horizontal stabiliser to zero force, and the elevator control return to neutral centre.
On the C152, and other spam-cans, the elevator stays deflected via the trim stab for zero force. Because the control is connected by cables the control column will stay in that deflected position. Also, the rate of pitch change will depend on elevator deflection + the speed. Hence you will not loop with a fixed deflection because the speed will decay and the rate of pitch will decay as well.
It's interesting, but surely you must have known all this before entering the jet world, and are now re-learning the basics. It's interesting because it is necessary to teach cadets in a jet sim just the opposite. i.e. allow the control column to centralise once the attitude or bank angle has been achieved and trimmed. It is common to see cadets holding a 'pull force' on finals because they feel the control column go forward (to neutral) when they release it after going through flap extension and associated attitude changes. They needed to look at the attitude & V/S to be confident that a nose forward control column when released did not result in a death dive.

[bingofuel]

Big Pistons Forever,

I am glad someone agrees with my earlier statement that "power +attitude = performance"

To be able to fly you must be able to recognize what attitude the aircraft is in. Attitude is the orientation of the airplane with respect to the earth (eg level ,tilted up, tilted down, on tilted to one side).


Too many people are overcomplicating the basics here. The original poster was a total novice asking a basic question and people went into too much detail.

What he needs to know is "look out the window and move the primary controls to achive the correct picture for whatever stage of flight he is in. Set the appropriate power and the aircraft will perform as expected."

[9 lives]

the rate of pitch change will depend on elevator deflection + the speed. Hence you will not loop with a fixed deflection because the speed will decay and the rate of pitch will decay as well.

Yes.

On the C152, and other spam-cans, the elevator stays deflected via the trim stab for zero force. Because the control is connected by cables the control column will stay in that deflected position.

Well... the pilot can trim out elevator forces, but the elevator does not "stay" unless trimmed or held. It will float freely, which is am important element of stability of the aircraft.

But.... before a new pilot gets all tangled up with stick force per G, stick fixed stability, stick free stability, and phugoid... just learn to fly the plane!

See what the plane's attitude is, and understnd what is required to make it what you need it to be. To do this, look out the windshield, and learn to feel the control forces (they are there for a reason). When you want to pick up a glass from the counter, your brain does not think about what muscles to move in your arm, or even where your hand should go, and fingers grasp, you just think "glass", and it goes where you need. The same with the plane. Keep your learning very simple at first, just fly the plane!

[RAT 5]

I'm suddenly confused by something that I thought I knew all these years.

This was the opening line by the questioner. Without thinking too much I thought he was an older jet pilot who was wanting to relive memories learnt 40-50 years ago and had forgotten. It might seem I could be mistaken, perhaps?? Am I?

[9 lives]

I can recall trenching with my excavator years ago. I was very satisfied that I had learned the coordination to operate two levers in four directions to control the motion of the boom and bucket. I could dig a decent trench. Then, as I paid more attention to the bucket actually digging the trench, I realized that although my hands were moving the levers, it was my mind moving the bucket. The bucket was digging just as I intended, but my hands were moving seemingly on their own. I watched my hands and the levers moving all over, and the bucket digging just as I wanted, and knew that one does not operate a machine with their hands (and feet - please!), they operate the machine with their mind, and hands and feet are just a part of the circuit. Then I more appreciated the complement paid me once: "You're not flying this plane, you're wearing it.". I'll keep working on my skills, in the hope of hearing such a complement again, but in the mean time, I understand it!

So look out the windshield, and observe the plane's attitude, motion, and projected path. Have your mind control the aircraft as you require. Your hands and feet will figure it out.

[India Four Two]

Have your mind control the aircraft as you require. Your hands and feet will figure it out.


Step Turn,

Very true. I know I'm not aware of the control and throttle movements I make when in the circuit, but to be fair to mkqq, i remember in my student pilot days, that my actions were somewhat mechanical and by rote.

Concerning "mind control", I once had an "out of body" experience, where I felt someone else was flying the aircraft, but I wouldn't want to admit that to my AME! :eek: