FLYING THE AWACS - SKY POINTERS

[mahogany bob]

At the risk of ' telling grannies to suck eggs ' and before alzheimer's finally kicks in may I pass on some 'top tips ' which helped me fly the AWACs - which in my opinion could be a right bitch !

1. SKY POINTERS - can't remember anyone preferring the American style Sky Pointer over our the RAF intuitive ground pointer. Could be quite disorienting if recovering from a UP at night?

TT. Imagine you are wearing an old style Prussian Helmet - with a pointy top!
Turning right point goes right - intuitive to straighten up ?

2. APPROACH- plan ahead and fly by pre-planned 'rote '. Last minute seat of the pants adjustments usually worked out badly - even when experienced/ overconfident!
TRIM is vital - time the EXACT trim required for each flap setting and apply early -Check in trim with loose grip. 50 ft - 1 sec of back trim 20 ft start round out?

3. Cross wind landings - difficult particularly with low slung CFM 56 engines.

TT - GENTLY push off the drift - don't kick it off - overemphasise the into wind aileron.Practise in the sim.

4.AAR - difficult at first particularly for ex fast jet jocks.

TT Never rush it !
TRIM TRIM TRIM - including ailerons.
Line up the throttles very carefully - with cable stretch could be well out
of line.
Position seat carefully - EXACTLY the same each time.
MOMENTUM is huge - don't forget to take off half the original input -
BEFORE it is too late!
Relax and keep breathing.

5. The FLIGHT SIMULATOR- even the newer model can be very slippery and make a fool out of even the best - however use it at every opportunity to practice the basics - even displays and AAR. I can't remember anyone who flew the sim well who wasn't even better on the aircraft!


Good luck - and apologies to any current QFIs who might take offence?

[Wensleydale]

It was easy to fly! Go where you are told - keep within AOB and stick to groundspeed!

[Sandy Parts]

I'd hope there is a large volume of useful tips shared among the many 'dish drivers/ saucer steerers' of the world's Air Forces?
Would certainly expect the STT (Sqn training teams) to be collating FS and general 'user-guides' from all over (good excuse for a jolly to warmer parts... :) )

[H Peacock]

Why stick with the aircraft document set (15A2) and SOPs when you can fly using internet gained top tips and French/Saudi/NATO/US gossip?

VP. If the doc set and SOPs are fully up to scratch (as they should be), then I agree with your gentle sarcasm. However, all too often they're not and people who should know better just hide behind them. The most important skill I was ever taught in the RAF was Airmanship. Knowing 'when to' and then 'when not to' use the 'doc set & SOPs'. Today's youngsters unfortunately only know one way.

[Sandy Parts]

suspect you have to find a free Dii terminal to read the 'doc set' and 'SOPs' these days? While the OCU was prepping for the MRA4, they had to fight to get printed docs (sadly they lasted longer than the airframes..). I'm guessing that fight would be near impossible today?

[Willard Whyte]

It was easy to fly!

Easy to 'navigate' too, but by ***k was it boring. Only ever enjoyed Westbound 'deployments'.

[Willard Whyte]

Great thread, PPRuNe at its best. Why stick with the aircraft document set (15A2) and SOPs when you can fly using internet gained top tips and French/Saudi/NATO/US gossip?

Well, the official stuff was largely ballocks, as I found out whilst teaching the stuff on the OCU.

[stilton]

Always been curious MB, was there any effect on handling from that big
dish ?


How about drag, much of a difference from the standard B707 airframe ?

[fingureof8]

Don't use aileron trim when behind a tanker.

[mahogany bob]

Stilton

Re dome drag - at GK we sometimes trained on the ex Sabina Airline B 707
- the only difference that I can remember was that the basic 707 was more 'slippery' and needed less power ( about 3% ?) - the rotodome did add drag but not as much as its size ( 6 ft tall ) and weight would suggest as the dome created its own lift - amazing design!

Figureof8

Re aileron trim - you are probably right?? - but I remember on 1 rare occasion the only way to fly straight behind the tanker was to apply some aileron trim!
Perhaps we were doing it wrong?

Vigilant Pilot I can't remember any of these 'top tips ' in any of the tech manuals - which I found very sleep inducing!

[fingureof8]

All done with the rudder trim, but feet on the floor and the FE nagging about N1 alignment..

Aileron trim is there to look pretty. 😂

[mahogany bob]

Figureof8

Maybe we had a fuel imbalance which caused the ac to roll slightly requiring aileron trim to correct?

[radar101]

Easy to 'navigate' too, but by ***k was it boring. Only ever enjoyed Westbound 'deployments'.



I spent my last 5 years as a civvie at Waddo as Trials Scientific Officer with the E3. Some of our 10 hour sorties comprised nothing but 15nm circles.


I can recall the joy of the Nav when I told him that the next sortie would involve continuous changes of heading ( +10deg, -20deg, + 30deg, -40 deg etc. ) He was fair chuffed to find that he had something technical to do!!


Radar101

[Wensleydale]

Some of our 10 hour sorties comprised nothing but 15nm circles.


To be fair - most of my 7,000 hrs in the aircraft was also spent flying in 15nm circles.....

[Fonsini]

Is it true that the phrase "Retrograde" is used to describe an operational AWACS sortie that is prematurely aborted due to enemy activity ?

[Wensleydale]

No. Further comment of the meanings of code words and procedure will not be made!

[BEagle]

Watching the E-3D jousting the VC10K centreline hose (on the CCTV) looked weird enough, but the AEW3 Nimrod looked ridiculous. It had to do a climbing approach and on the CCTV when in contact it looked like a platypus.

Probably flew like one too!

[Lordflasheart]

Dutch Roll ?

What did/do they teach or preach about dutch roll and yaw damper (or whatever it’s called now) including related failures, for the 707 AWACs series ?

Question applies equally to in-flight demonstration or training, simulator, classroom, and whatever manuals or scuttlebutt that might be available.

Same question also asked for RAF Rivet Joint.

LFH

[H Peacock]

RAF Rivet Joint.

Probably been said before, but what a truly ridiculous name for an RAF aircraft! Why on earth didn't we give it a different name; anything would be better! Is it too late to do a competition??

[Wensleydale]

Watching the E-3D jousting the VC10K centreline hose (on the CCTV) looked weird enough, but the AEW3 Nimrod looked ridiculous. It had to do a climbing approach and on the CCTV when in contact it looked like a platypus.

Probably flew like one too!


Actually, consensus was that the AEW3 flew better than the MR2 - the nose and tail additions gave better yaw characteristics and Dutch roll was significantly reduced. Just a shame that the Mission System Avionics were pants.


As for Sentry - the flight deck crews said that the problem during tanking was when you got a little high behind the tanker and you placed the rotodome into the tanker's turbulence.

[Brain Potter]

Having been trained on and operated British aircraft (or those modified to RAF requirements) I had only seen Attitude Indicators with ground pointers. On conversion to a glass-cockpit, I also found the sky pointer to be a little counter-intuitive. Once the penny dropped though, I realised that it is a much better presentation for upset recovery. The ground pointer (like QFE) really is a British quirk that generations of RAF pilots believed was 'normal'. As glass is now standard in the multi stream, this peculiarity should be consigned to history. Or will the Phenom PFD be modified to have an MoD-specified presentation?

[Pure Pursuit]

UK Rivet Joints are called the 'Airseeker'.

This name was originally given to the UK RJ programme and has subsequently been passed onto the airframe.

Rivet is the prefix the Yanks give their heavy recce aircraft. Rivet Stand, Rivet Quick etc. Completely crap names!

[Lordflasheart]

Quote:
RAF Rivet Joint.
Probably been said before, but what a truly ridiculous name for an RAF aircraft! Why on earth didn't we give it a different name; anything would be better! Is it too late to do a competition?? Capt Peacock - I empathise. You could refer to it as RC-135W or Project Airseeker if you wished. The competition would have to be limited to the cognoscenti, to save having another "Flaghty Mc ***** face" embarrassment.

Back to the thread ......

Thanks PP, beat me to it - I used 'that' name in case any col***ls knew the answer to my question.

[Redtoptest]

I heard a rumour of an awacs landing in Turkey last summer in a bit of a rush. Anyone know any details?

[mahogany bob]

Brian Potter

Congrats you are the first pilot who in my ( ltd ) experience prefers the SKY POINTER to the ground pointer!

Looking back I find that there was a SP thread in the Tech Log Forum - decoded 17 March 2011.It recalled an extensive study into the SP
www./leonardo.lth.se/fileadmin-re- Horizon.pdf - in which it conclusively proved that that it 5 times more likely to initiate a 'roll reversal' ie turn the wrong way when recovering from a UP using the SP!!
Every possible effort should be made to make the pilots job simple -KISS and in my opinion the Ground Pointer is simple !
After all the Attidude display is rather important!

PS Still think that envisaging a pointy Prussian helmet is more intuitive than the Fin - when interpreting the SP!

[mahogany bob]

Brian Potter

Congrats you are the first pilot who in my ( ltd ) experience prefers the SKY POINTER to the ground pointer!

Looking back I find that there was a SP thread in the Tech Log Forum - decoded 17 March 2011.It recalled an extensive study into the SP
www./leonardo.lth.se/fileadmin-re- Horizon.pdf - in which it conclusively proved that that it 5 times more likely to initiate a 'roll reversal' ie turn the wrong way when recovering from a UP using the SP!!
Every possible effort should be made to make the pilots job simple -KISS and in my opinion the Ground Pointer is simple !
After al is rather important!

PS Still think that envisaging a pointy Prussian helmet is more intuitive than the Fin - when interpreting the SP!

[mahogany bob]

Sorry typo!
Last but one line should read
After all the attitude display is rather important!

[Lordflasheart]

Mah. Bob - If you wuz brought up on the sky pointer, you wouldn't know the brits had invented a far better way first. Being a bit slow, I never did get the hang of the Sky Pointer

UPs - Limited panel T & S recovery ?

All instruments failed - Use the E2 compass to descent through cloud on heading south ?

Don't get me started on the early brit 'MRG' based panels.

[H Peacock]

UPs - Limited panel T & S recovery ?

Hey, Lord F, when do you reckon that was last taught within the RAF and on which platform??

[SwitchMonkey]

Apologies for slight Rivet Joint thread hijack on a Sentry (or should that be AWACS) thread.

UK Rivet Joints are called the 'Airseeker'.

This name was originally given to the UK RJ programme and has subsequently been passed onto the airframe.

Rivet is the prefix the Yanks give their heavy recce aircraft. Rivet Stand, Rivet Quick etc. Completely crap names!

The project is Airseeker (much like the ASTOR project which brought us the Sentinel R1).

The Aircraft is the RC-135 Rivet Joint. Same aircraft as the USAF, same name.

There are many (even some seniors) who call the aircraft by the project name but they are not correct to do so.

Anyone who disagrees, and is able to, can check the Release to Service or wander over to 51 Sqn and ask.

[Just This Once...]

SwitchMonkey has it right. The UK could not change the name of the aircraft even if it wanted to. Given that the USAF and RAF can fly each other's aircraft, share the same support system and can mix crews the idea of changing the name was never an option.

[H Peacock]

JTO

Oh dear, so does that make the Rivet Joint/Airseeker thingy an 'airplane' as opposed to an 'aeroplane'?

[Pure Pursuit]

I stand corrected Switch Monkey. Thank you.

I did get my info from a 51 chap though...

Either way, it's ugly, lands at what appears to be close to light speed and always seem to be very, very clean!!

[Thomas Woodrooffe RN]

No. Further comment of the meanings of code words and procedure will not be made!

Of course you could just Google it:

https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm1-02-1.pdf

[Lima Juliet]

I wonder if the Navy will ever get a special project recce version called GOLDEN RIVET? :E

[Lordflasheart]

Quote:
UPs - Limited panel T & S recovery ?
Hey, Lord F, when do you reckon that was last taught within the RAF and on which platform??

Capt Peacock - Late '60s, RN Hunter and Vampire (by my good self)
Do I detect a sense that it is no longer ?

And Twenty Lashes for the previous poster ...... :E

[H Peacock]

Lord F. We did Limited Panel on the Bulldog and I'm sure I was also taught on the JP. It was (re)-taught on 39 Sqn during conversion to the Canberra. I'm sure we also had to show our Limited Panel ability during the IRT.

[Dominator2]

Lord F,

I also did Limited Panel UPs on the JP 3,5 and Hunter up until 1975. Oh how we loved those Self Nav Tac Recvy through Pt Alpha using Timed Turns and an E2B. I'm sure the practice carried on until the Hawk?

Fortunately in the Dominie in 2011 it was easier to fly Xcockpit rather than try LP. Mind you, we didn't do UPs in the Dominie, just "upsets", whatever they were?

[megan]

Oh dear, so does that make the Rivet Joint/Airseeker thingy an 'airplane' as opposed to an 'aeroplane'?The British pilot notes of USA origin aircraft used to have a page, longish list it be, at the very back listing the Brit version of the US equivalent ie accumulator instead of battery.

[BEagle]

Dominator2 wrote: I also did Limited Panel UPs on the JP 3,5 and Hunter up until 1975.

As did I! QGH to PAR on standby instruments was such a joy in the Hunter, with its significant looping error. At least the T7A and T8B had the OR946 Gnat / Buccaneer / Lightning instrument fit though.

20 years later, I was still teaching them on the Bulldog (Height, Speed, 'g', Roll, Pitch) and with the unreliability of many GA aircraft AHs, also on the PA28 until 13 years after that. But our aircraft did at least have a proper turn and slip rather than the wretched 'turn coordinator'..:mad:

For complete and utter confusion though, try a Russian AH - the 'globe' remains parallel with the real horizon but the aircraft symbol moves...:\

They do have an excellent combined turn and slip and VSI though - as well as a combined 'g' and AoA gauge.

Some of us remember the frankly baffling Smiths Military Flight System fitted to the Vulcan, amongst others. Scanning that thing in any aggressive manoeuvring wasn't very natural - and as for the fixed card compass....:rolleyes:

[mahogany bob]

Wensleydale

Re rotodome turbulance during AAR - can't remember any prob with this - and I did demo the limits a few times.

Lordflashheart

Re Dutch Roll - unlike the Nimrod it wasn't a prob on the Sentry as it was very stable at altidude - therefore not much emphasis in trg.

Dominator 2

I thought the the Vulcan MFS ,although a bit quirky, was pretty intuitive and easy to use.

Surprised that

I. Noone else out there has any 'issues' with the Sky Pointer?
2. Noone has come out with any 'top tips' - on any aircraft - which might assist students - who might have difficulties converting to type ?

[deltahotel]

1. First 23 years of aviation with ground pointers - found it very intuitive. Last 17 with Mr Boeing - still find sky pointer difficult!

2. Does Sentry have a big pitch/power couple? This catches a lot of people out when starting out on 757/767.

[mahogany bob]

deltahotel

No big prob with pitch/power - slight nose up with power on and reverse with power off.