German Tornado replacement

[tonker]

Here is a link to a new aircraft the Germans intend to produce.

Germany looks to develop its own sixth generation stealth fighter jet | Defence Blog (http://defence-blog.com/news/germany-looks-to-develop-its-own-sixth-generation-stealth-fighter-jet.html)

[Lima Juliet]

If the RAF buy into it then we'll need some extra WSO(Nav) FJ...

http://defence-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Airbus-DS-FCAS-web.jpg

...if it is cheaper than F35 then it might make sense for Typhoon replacement.

[iRaven]

It looks spookily similar to REPLICA which was developed by BAESYSTEMS in the late 90s:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSY_GDTGNC5rP7Mm4uBZUzYrmihl3q3ezftUUCZBKM wvV0K2_Zy

http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/stealth4f.files/BAE_replica_3.jpg

https://d1o50x50snmhul.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2003/04/dn3590-1_185.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HiFIw8OkTWk/sddefault.jpg

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4818/replica-bae-systems-web.jpg?width=500&height=333.8888888888889

Oh, and BAE are working with Turkey to build 200+ LO strike aircraft...

[Lima Juliet]

I first saw REPLICA when I visited the factory nearly 10 years ago. Even then it was old and now a cancelled project as F35 was the way ahead. I couldn't help thinking it was a TSR2 moment I was looking at...

Here she is being transported on her rig somewhere at Warton in 2014.

HiFIw8OkTWk

[tartare]

Why was it cancelled?
I've Googled it - but can't see a reason suggested - just reference to cancellation of the FOAS.
Pressure from the US?
Rather than another TSR2 - another Miles M52 perhaps?
It is eerily similar to the YF-23.

[TheWestCoast]

It was cancelled because they couldn't figure out how to turn it the right way up, apparently.

[Davef68]

Compare Replica with the MDD/BAE submission for the JSF program.

JSF.mil > Gallery (http://www.jsf.mil/gallery/gal_photo_cddr_mda-ngc-bae.htm)

Replica is usually touted as BAE proving Britain could go it alone in developing a stealth fighter design, thus smoothing our entry into JSF as a full partner

[unmanned_droid]

Davef68, that' the way I understand it as far as REPLICA goes.

Hmmmm ok, I wrote something else and decided to change my mind....

So this is the European follow on from Typhoon then...European customers that don't want to be tied to US policy and operating restrictions, and can't get the access we can on the F35, can join the inevitable pan european partnership for this design. I wonder where Dassault sit on this.

I'm going to guess it's going to need all those years in the expected IOC statement to get a design sorted and pushed through the system to actual hardware.

ETA: I think that's a really quite old concept...most armed forces have been happy that the workload can be carried by one person and modern mission systems for some time now.

[Tinman74]

Will this be like most recent German military procurements? Over pledge of buys, to create a larger work share? Look at their Typhoon and A400 fleet status and life upgrades.

I think the U.K. Has had enough of this type of behaviour, hence our off the shelf purchases of air seeker, F35b, AH64e, there's also the Understanding with Japan.

[Davef68]

I wonder where Dassault sit on this.
.

Currently looking at UAS (or are they RPVs again? :-)) with BAES (son of FOAS) - which no doubt means working on that at the same time as developing a national solution for the inevitable fall out!

[ORAC]

UCAV seems more descriptive.

[XR219]

Odd that they've called it "Future Combat Air System", when there already is another FCAS...
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-22-billion-anglo-french-fcas-phase-announced-422866/

[Fonsini]

Volkswagen's aviation branch are designing the prototype - apparently the range on internals is amazing :E

[sandiego89]

Volkswagen's aviation branch are designing the prototype - apparently the range on internals is amazing :E


And presumably there will be no problem for this jet meeting strict emissions standards :E

[EAP86]

Is it possible that REPLICA was just a way of investigating a particular technology issue which coincidentally looked interesting and impressed the colonials? I suppose that's not a good answer for a rumour network though...

EAP

[tartare]

My thoughts exactly.
As a former colleague of mine put it "...that's a great idea; I'm going to go and tell my boss how clever I've been." :E

[Melchett01]

Volkswagen's aviation branch are designing the prototype - apparently the range on internals is amazing :E

As long as the NAVAIDS are better than those in my car ... every time it gets confused it gives me a course straight for Wolfsburg regardless of where I actually want to go.

[Chef Bruz]

there I was, upside down with nothing on the clock but the maker's name...

[Finningley Boy]

I'm going to say, can it only fly upside down? Would this not be dangerous for the crew?:ok:

FB:)

[GeeRam]

I'm going to say, can it only fly upside down? Would this not be dangerous for the crew?:ok:


Unless they nicked some downward firing seats from an old F-104 ;)

[keesje]

I think there is some discussion on requirements and timing.

Meanwhile they are teaming up with Airbus militairy & Dassault

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-br4NRikf7ag/WiqCIvQ48mI/AAAAAAAADRA/5Oq_oI36wZUWBL1Ba2sHznQ2jGkOOQHcgCLcBGAs/s1600/Euro%2Bfighter%2Bbomber%2Btornado%2Bstealth.jpg

Dassault might provide a customized Rafale-"G" fleet to bridge the period up to 2035.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/france-and-germany-to-develop-new-european-fighter-jet-idUSKBN19Y1FJ

[engineer(retard)]

Dassault might provide a customized Rafale-"G" fleet to bridge the period up to 2035.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/france-and-germany-to-develop-new-european-fighter-jet-idUSKBN19Y1FJ

Is that G for Germany, I think there was a song about that? It’s a typical European programme, even the headline is late.

Is the fly included for scale?

[BEagle]

engineer(retard) wrote:Is that G for Germany, I think there was a song about that?


Yes, there was indeed. Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters featured a conversation between Defence Minister Strauss and some Lockheed suit:

Salesman: Hi there. We understand you want to buy some airplanes?

Strauss: That is correct.

Salesman: Well we make airplanes. Good ones. Fast and reliable. Let me just show you this. Look at this picture. This is the F-104. Or the Starfighter as we like to call her. Isn't she beautiful. Yep. She sure is beautiful. Designed by the same man who designed the famous U2.

Strauss: The U2....

Salesman: Yes. It's the finest fair weather fighter on the market. You won't find a better one at the price. Or any price for that matter!

Strauss: Yes, it's very nice. But we need a plane for bombing, strafing, assault and battery, interception, ground support and reconnaissance. Not just a fair weather fighter!

Salesman: Well, that's OK. We can make some modifications. It'll cost a little extra, but it's worth it. Just look at the shape of this beauty. Look, I tell you what we'll do. We'll redesign the plane, right? And instead of just calling it the F-104, we'll call it the F-104G!

Strauss: G?
Salesman: Yeah, eh, Herr Minister - G. G for Germany.

Strauss: G. for Germany, eh....??

Salesman: Yeah, ehm, G for Germany, Herr Minister, you know, it'll go well on the plane, we could do a logo around it and it would look very tasty up in the clouds. We could illuminate it a bit - so, that on dark days you would see it twinkling like a star...

Strauss: G for Germany..? Also G for Gott strafe England. This I am enjoying! G for Germany!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hmmm.

Wouldn't a French jet being flogged to the Germans be either A(lemande) or D(eutschland) ?

G

[ZH875]

Hmmm.

Wouldn't a French jet being flogged to the Germans be either A(lemande) or D(eutschland) ?

G
Or even 'S' for Surrender

[ExAscoteer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0wT1efK6R0

[chopper2004]

Germany Reportedly Favors Typhoon to Replace Tornado, Also Eyeing F-15, F/A-18 - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16892/germany-reportedly-favors-typhoon-to-replace-tornado-also-eyeing-f-15-f-a-18)

Cheers

[KenV]

...if it is cheaper than F35 then it might make sense for Typhoon replacement.Cheaper than the current and future F-35 seems very highly improbable. In addition, this new aircraft will reportedly have much greater range and endurance than F-35, so must be larger and almost certainly have two engines, making the prospect of it being cheaper essentially impossible.

[Lima Juliet]

The two seat Typhoon with the conformal fuel tank modification makes good sense for a replacement...

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Typhoon-dual-bomb-drop.jpg

https://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/eurofighter-2020.jpg

[chopper2004]

I can see Boeing working hard in Berlin next week what with the Schwerer Transporthubschrauber replacement of the Luftwaffe CH-53G thus pitching the CH-47F and that the E/A-18G Growler is making an appearence.

https://www.ila-berlin.de/en/aircraft?field_air_category_target_id%5B%5D=347&combine=

cheers

[ORAC]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-military-fighter/germany-presses-u-s-on-potential-eurofighter-nuclear-role-idUKKBN1JG1K1

Germany presses U.S. on potential Eurofighter nuclear role

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is pressing Washington to clarify whether it would let the Eurofighter Typhoon carry nuclear bombs as part of shared Western defences, an issue that could help decide whether Berlin orders more of the jets, sources familiar with the matter said.

Although not a nuclear power, Germany hosts some U.S. nuclear warheads under NATO’s nuclear-sharing policy and operates a number of Tornado warplanes that can deliver them. New jets will need to be certified by Washington to carry out nuclear missions, a process which can take years. Germany’s defence ministry sent a letter to the U.S. Defense Department in April asking whether certification of the European jets was possible, how much it would cost, and how long it would take, the sources told Reuters on condition of anonymity. Top U.S. Air Force and Pentagon officials are working to respond to the German query, the sources said.

The multi-billion-euro tender to replace Germany’s fleet of 89 Tornados, which are due to retire in the middle of the next decade, pits the Typhoon against several U.S. contenders at a time of strains in transatlantic ties. Executives with Airbus, Lockheed Martin and Boeing are making presentations to the defence ministry this week after submitting reams of information on their respective warplanes in April, with the formal launch of the competition expected later this year, industry sources said.......

Lockheed’s radar-evading F-35 fighter is already slated to have the nuclear capability in the early 2020s, while the Eurofighter would still need certification. Airbus has said it is confident Eurofighter - a joint project with Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo - could be certified by 2025. Sources familiar with the Eurofighter said it was possible to reconfigure the European jet to carry nuclear bombs. But U.S. government sources say that schedule is ambitious given that the F-35 and other aircraft must be certified first. Washington has suggested it could take 7-10 years to certify the Eurofighter for nuclear missions, well beyond the Tornado’s retirement date, according to one German military source.

While urging Europe to boost defence spending, U.S. officials are worried about being shut out of European defence projects after 25 EU governments signed a pact in December to fund, develop and deploy armed forces together.

U.S. officials will also weigh whether the Eurofighter could survive a mission into enemy territory to drop a nuclear bomb without stealth capability at a time when Russia and other potential future enemies have bolstered their sensors and air defences, a second source said. The F-35 is the only aircraft in the running that has such radar-evading capabilities, but Boeing and Eurofighter argue that their aircraft can work in tandem with jamming equipment.

Volker Paltzo, chief executive of Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH, told Reuters this week that he remained confident that Eurofighter could take over the roles of the Tornado, and the company had a strategy to deal with a length certification process. He said the Tornado had been successfully recertified several times after major upgrades.

[ORAC]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-fighter-tornado-exclusive/exclusive-germany-sees-8-86-billion-euro-cost-to-operate-tornado-jets-through-2030-idUSKCN1RM219

Exclusive: Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030

BERLIN (Reuters) - The German Defence Ministry estimates it will cost nearly 9 billion euros to keep its aging fleet of 93 Tornado fighter jets flying until 2030, according to a classified document provided to German lawmakers this week. The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters.

Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter or Boeing Co’s F/A-18E/F fighter jet to replace its Tornado fleet in coming years, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter from a tender worth billions of euros. But neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter, built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA, are currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. That means Germany will be dependent on its Tornado fleet until it gets new certified planes - a process that could take years.

The estimate came in response to a query by lawmakers from the opposition Free Democrats, who have criticized the ministry for dropping the F-35 - the only aircraft already certified. The ministry did not specify the cost of operating the Tornado fleet until 2035, the current target, despite a specific request to do so from the lawmakers, and said it could adjust the retirement schedule.

Parliamentary sources said the estimate was even higher than expected at around 100 million euros per plane, and it would be cheaper to purchase new aircraft. However Germany’s sluggish defense procurement process, and the complicated process of certifying new aircraft to carry nuclear weapons, meant any new warplanes were unlikely to enter service until 2025 or even later.

Of Germany’s 93 Tornado jets, 85 are operated by the Luftwaffe, or air force, but not all are equipped to carry nuclear weapons. The remaining planes are used for training.

The current Tornado fleet has a combat readiness rate of under 40 percent, according to sources familiar with new ministry data. Germany in past years had published such data, but this year made the readiness of its weapons a classified matter for security reasons.

[Just This Once...]

Who would have thought that being able undertake the tactical nuclear strike role would have been a sticking point for Germany. For the US or the wider NATO capability perhaps, but for Germany?

Quite a few years since the RAF was divested from this role and we produced and controlled our own weapons.

[dead_pan]

I wonder if the US will stand in the way of the German's request, given the ongoing criticism re their defence spend?

Also, the Typhoon appears to morphing into the Skyhawk's bigger brother....

[Harley Quinn]

Also, the Typhoon appears to morphing into the Skyhawk's bigger brother....

In what way?

[isaneng]

Look at the development picture above - the conformal fuel tanks provide a silhouette not dissimilar to a Skyhawk. At least, I presume that was the thought.

[bvcu]

still have the original LP !

[tartare]

7-10 years to certify the Typhoon to carry a nuclear weapon???
I assume 9.95 years to complete the paper work - and a few months to sort out the wiring and do the drop tests.
Sheesh... lucky there's not a war on.

[TBM-Legend]

Gee the first delivery aircraft, the B-29, was certified and proven in weeks!

[tartare]

Gee the first delivery aircraft, the B-29, was certified and proven in weeks!

Exactly!
Seriously tho - I get you have to do lots of testing to sure the damn thing can be plugged into the avionics, or rewire the jet if it doesn't, fly it to make sure it works with the airframe, releases properly and doesn't ping the jet carrying it - do all the training - all the secret squirrel stuff, PAL locks, all the targetting gubbins etc etc etc...
But 7 years?

[Easy Street]

The trouble is that integration of a new weapon on Typhoon means getting a slot on the ‘to-do’ list at the multinational programme level, which automatically pushes things into the ‘several years’ timeframe. I wouldn’t be surprised if this issue was among the main reasons for the somewhat surprising announcement that the UK was embarking on a 6th-gen project on its own.

[Just This Once...]

But 7 years?

I think 7 years is just to get all the liver transplants completed as jaundice will have set in in the EF community with Germany's reluctance to progress anything on Typhoon, especially for anything with a hint of air-to-ground about it. After years of dragging their feet and the 'air defence only' and 'not paying for that' mantra they now want to turn it into a fully-fledged strike/attack platform.

If Germany had been onboard from the beginning the UK Typhoon programme would have been years ahead of where it is now.

[Buster15]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-fighter-tornado-exclusive/exclusive-germany-sees-8-86-billion-euro-cost-to-operate-tornado-jets-through-2030-idUSKCN1RM219

Exclusive: Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030

BERLIN (Reuters) - The German Defence Ministry estimates it will cost nearly 9 billion euros to keep its aging fleet of 93 Tornado fighter jets flying until 2030, according to a classified document provided to German lawmakers this week. The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters.

Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter or Boeing Co’s F/A-18E/F fighter jet to replace its Tornado fleet in coming years, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter from a tender worth billions of euros. But neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter, built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA, are currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. That means Germany will be dependent on its Tornado fleet until it gets new certified planes - a process that could take years.

The estimate came in response to a query by lawmakers from the opposition Free Democrats, who have criticized the ministry for dropping the F-35 - the only aircraft already certified. The ministry did not specify the cost of operating the Tornado fleet until 2035, the current target, despite a specific request to do so from the lawmakers, and said it could adjust the retirement schedule.

Parliamentary sources said the estimate was even higher than expected at around 100 million euros per plane, and it would be cheaper to purchase new aircraft. However Germany’s sluggish defense procurement process, and the complicated process of certifying new aircraft to carry nuclear weapons, meant any new warplanes were unlikely to enter service until 2025 or even later.

Of Germany’s 93 Tornado jets, 85 are operated by the Luftwaffe, or air force, but not all are equipped to carry nuclear weapons. The remaining planes are used for training.

The current Tornado fleet has a combat readiness rate of under 40 percent, according to sources familiar with new ministry data. Germany in past years had published such data, but this year made the readiness of its weapons a classified matter for security reasons.



These figures seem surprising.
The RAF has just retired its fleet of Tornado and I have been told that the vast majority of the airframes and systems have been reduced to produce. I also understand that the majority of the RTP items have been supplied to the Saudis. Apparently the German MoD were not prepared to pay as much as the Saudis for these parts.

[Buster15]

Gee the first delivery aircraft, the B-29, was certified and proven in weeks!

Let's at least try to compare apples with applesshall we.
Yes seven years does seem a long time. But certifying anything where Nuclear Safety is involved can become a massive exercise.

[Harley Quinn]

Let's at least try to compare apples with applesshall we.
Yes seven years does seem a long time. But certifying anything where Nuclear Safety is involved can become a massive exercise.

It could probably be done quicker if money was thrown at it. Thing is though, that it's a darn sight easier to design the requirement, with all its little foibles, in from the start. I would imagine introducing certified SW looms to the electric jet as an afterthought would have design organisations alternately grinning and grimacing as the requirement gets changed seemingly at the whim of a politician. Remember the angst changing to the C variant for F-35 caused?

[keesje]

The Eurofighter program has been going on for 35 yrs, flying for 25. It's a good interceptor / air defense platform.

I don't see it as an interdiction solution for the next 35 years. Things moved on, you don't operate in isolation.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x516/stealthcompared_jpg_7f4adc43124929fdfb75139e42d135ab5b9d546a .png
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/09/chinas-next-stealth-fighter-fc31.html

[WingsofRoffa]

The Eurofighter program has been going on for 35 yrs, flying for 25. It's a good interceptor / air defense platform.

I don't see it as an interdiction solution for the next 35 years. Things moved on, you don't operate in isolation.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x516/stealthcompared_jpg_7f4adc43124929fdfb75139e42d135ab5b9d546a .png
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/09/chinas-next-stealth-fighter-fc31.html

God that F22 is beautiful.

[Thrust Augmentation]

The Eurofighter program has been going on for 35 yrs, flying for 25. It's a good interceptor / air defense platform.

I don't see it as an interdiction solution for the next 35 years. Things moved on, you don't operate in isolation.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x516/stealthcompared_jpg_7f4adc43124929fdfb75139e42d135ab5b9d546a .png
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/09/chinas-next-stealth-fighter-fc31.html

Really looks like a lineup of studio models for a Buck Rodgers or Battlestar G. film!

[just another jocky]

Really looks like a lineup of studio models for a Buck Rodgers or Battlestar G. film!

And what exciting times we live in!

[ORAC]

https://www.reuters.com/article/germany-military/german-defense-minister-wants-quick-decision-on-tornado-replacement-idUSL2N26E1ED

German defense minister wants quick decision on Tornado replacement

WASHINGTON, Sept 23 (Reuters) - German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer on Monday said she aimed to decide as soon as possible next year how to replace Germany’s aging fleet of Tornado fighter jets to prevent a lapse in Germany’s ability to carry out missions for NATO. Kramp-Karrenbauer, leader of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democrats, said she discussed the issue with U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper during her first official visit to Washington since taking on her new role as defense minister.

Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter - built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA - or Boeing Co’s F/A-18 fighter, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 fighter out of a tender worth billions of euros. However neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter is currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. Germany is asking Washington to spell out what it will take to get those aircraft certified.

“My goal is that we make clear decisions as quickly as possible next year, so there is no time period in which there is no reasonable solution for replacing the Tornado fleet,” Kramp-Karrenbauer told reporters. She said she would work closely with Esper on the issue in coming months. But experts say it could take years to get the new planes certified to carry nuclear weapons, and the cost of maintaining the current aircraft is rising rapidly.

Kramp-Karrenbauer said she also had a frank discussion with Esper about Germany’s rejection of the F-35 as a possible replacement for the Tornado jets, given concerns that it could impede work on a Franco-German next-generation combat jet. “We made clear that ... the Future Combat Air System with the French was one of the reasons that ... we had to seek other solutions,” she said, when asked if she ruled out taking another look at the F-35.

Lockheed officials had hoped that Germany could reconsider its decision after the departure of former Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen........

[Finningley Boy]

These figures seem surprising.
The RAF has just retired its fleet of Tornado and I have been told that the vast majority of the airframes and systems have been reduced to produce. I also understand that the majority of the RTP items have been supplied to the Saudis. Apparently the German MoD were not prepared to pay as much as the Saudis for these parts.

On the point of a need to find a nuclear bomb carrying capable airframe, if it doesn't have to be American, then given Germany's current relation with France and given that the French have now replaced their Mirage 2000N with the Rafale. Could an arrangement be made for Germany to buy some Rafales, strike capable? The use of a French bomb instead of a US B61 should be possible. We transferred from B43 carrying Canberras and Phantoms to Buccaneers and Jaguars which all carried the home spun WE177 instead.

FB

[Timelord]

Use of French weapons would mean they would be stored under French control and released to the delivery unit after a French political decision in the same way that US weapons always have been. I’m not sure that either party is ready for that sort of arrangement.

[West Coast]

The use of a French bomb instead of a US B61 should be possible.

Why should it be possible?

[etudiant]

I'd think that the prime directive for the German military would be to ensure that nuclear weapons are never used in Europe.
Getting rid of US certified nuclear carriers would be positive early result of such a directive.
However, I see zero desire to substitute a French nuke for a US nuke. Rather the German government will feel very comfortable having no nuclear capable aircraft because of jurisdictional issues.

[BEagle]

Why should it be possible?

Indeed. I suspect that certification cost would not be the sole issue - political agreements will probably dictate the outcome.

[Less Hair]

The Germans want to keep their US NATO nuke role. This is why they practically need some US aircraft capable to be certified for the B61-12. Certifying the Eurofighter would mean to technically disclose everything to the US for nuke-certification. This is what they want to avoid by buying something else. They seem to prefer two seats and two engines.

[Lima Juliet]

The Germans want to keep their US NATO nuke role. This is why they practically need some US aircraft capable to be certified for the B61-12. Certifying the Eurofighter would mean to technically disclose everything to the US for nuke-certification. This is what they want to avoid by buying something else. They seem to prefer two seats and two engines.

So a 2-seat Strike Typhoon is needed (which was on the table at one point before the idiot single-seat mafia got involved). Producing one would be easy, and with the proposed conformal tanks would be an excellent aircraft. It might even make sense for the Brits to look at this too - single seat is fine for small skirmishes like Libya or Syria, but for full-on high-end war fighting then using one aircraft to do one thing and its wing man to do another on the same mission is a waste if you want to achieve mass effect on a target.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/630x435/image_c0b1d7a762698745ea2c9616c99202eff010be25.jpeg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x576/image_590de38e745d695ad45331a5dd0def754e5cbcfc.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1242/image_f87d1e634c80645b371e3aae6cfd838e67079b2c.jpeg

[Buster15]

So a 2-seat Strike Typhoon is needed (which was on the table at one point before the idiot single-seat mafia got involved). Producing one would be easy, and with the proposed conformal tanks would be an excellent aircraft. It might even make sense for the Brits to look at this too - single seat is fine for small skirmishes like Libya or Syria, but for full-on high-end war fighting then using one aircraft to do one thing and its wing man to do another on the same mission is a waste if you want to achieve mass effect on a target.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/630x435/image_c0b1d7a762698745ea2c9616c99202eff010be25.jpeg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x576/image_590de38e745d695ad45331a5dd0def754e5cbcfc.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1242/image_f87d1e634c80645b371e3aae6cfd838e67079b2c.jpeg


But how does this help if they don't want to disclose all the design data to the US to allow nuclear certification.

[Dave Sharpe]

Well in my distant past I do remember loading American Special weapon training rounds onto Nimrod so there is a precedent for Bae to work with the USA in that area -weapons were controlled (at least at one base ) by a USN facility - and
at the same time the Bucc was still capable of carrying WE177 as Tornado was being brought worked up into that role --with the Jaguar also being capable of carrying WE177 as it often did in RAFG when on QRA....prior to Tonka taking over that role......

[ORAC]

IIRC the “special certification” for the Jaguar was a US Marine sitting on a ladder with his gun pointed at the pilot’s head and instructions to shoot if he took his hands off the cockpit sides without permission......

[Finningley Boy]

Why should it be possible?

As opposed to impossible.

FB

[k3k3]

IIRC the “special certification” for the Jaguar was a US Marine sitting on a ladder with his gun pointed at the pilot’s head and instructions to shoot if he took his hands off the cockpit sides without permission......

I only ever saw Jaguars with WE177s fitted, never a US weapon. Prevention of unauthorised use was one closed HAS door, two RAFP with SMGs, one of whom was up the ladder with a piece of paper...

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/10/04/boeings-f-18-may-have-a-leg-up-in-germany-over-eurofighter/Boeing’s F-18 jet may have a leg up in Germany over Eurofighter
COLOGNE, Germany — The race between Boeing’s F-18 jet and the Airbus Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft to replace Germany’s Tornado fighter-bombers has tilted toward the American plane, according to a German media report.

That is after German defense officials received information from the Pentagon about the time needed to certify the Eurofighter to carry nuclear weapons, according to an article in the Süddeutsche Zeitung. Getting the Eurofighter approved for that mission would take between three and five years longer than the F-18, which is considered a nuclear weapons-capable aircraft in the U.S. military, the newspaper reported.......

[weemonkey]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/mv5bytbhy2q5mdcty2u2ny00n2u5ltk1ywitzjrhnjrhzgqzmjlhxkeyxkfq cgdeqxvymje5mzm3mja_v1__cd59c7f07d997af657d6ea931a17d6ffce50 f83c.jpg


So is there any indication of single or dual crew??

[Less Hair]

They seem to want dual crew in any case.

[weemonkey]

They seem to want dual crew in any case.
So that's the timescale with Typhoon...

[chopper2004]

4 decades ago if the YF-17 Cobra went into production, then McD were looking at potential foreign customers...so I came across this artists impressions of potential customers..
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x919/71965762_1300442300122467_5230794614864084992_n_599441159baf b59d5c9713798fbf54565fa009c0.jpg

Notice second from bottom :)

Also last year after ILA Berlin 2018, when I saw E/A-18G Growler on static, I heard a rumor, that it may have stuck around tad longer in Germany...demo to Luftwaffe as ECR replacement.

So now the Tiffy may have competition on its hands, partially because of NATO Bucket of Sunshine commitment which the Tonka can port, but the Tiffy cannot. Thus with the F-35 canned...looks like it could be the Super Hornet.

Cheers

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/10/04/boeings-f-18-may-have-a-leg-up-in-germany-over-eurofighter/?fbclid=IwAR3cSV1WS-1o6zcdokETUPaLmA3Rd1wiHA6h9lzyumj1L-OGWGtwwmL5fRo#.XZfFA85bGHs.facebook

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/03/26/germany-reportedly-moving-toward-a-split-buy-of-super-hornets-and-eurofighter-typhoons-to-replace-tornado-jets/

Germany reportedly moving toward a split buy of Super Hornets, Growlers and Eurofighter Typhoons to replace Tornado jets

WASHINGTON — The German air force will reportedly buy up to 90 Eurofighters, 30 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers to replace the remainder of its Panavia Tornado fighter jet fleet (https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2019/11/12/airbus-expects-updated-industry-call-for-germanys-tornado-replacement-contest/), but the split procurement doesn’t offer an easy answer for Germany’s requirement to field a nuclear-capable jet, a U.K. defense think tank said.

Germany plans to use the Super Hornet, made by U.S. aerospace company Boeing, to fill a NATO requirement to field fighter aircraft capable of dropping the B61 nuclear gravity bomb, according to German business publication Handelsblatt (https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/verteidigungsministerium-eurofighter-und-f-18-jets-sollen-offenbar-bundeswehr-tornados-ersetzen/25683788.html?ticket=ST-814134-dAxPCeYpS10yF634uzUH-ap6), which first reported the split buy. It will also buy Growlers to replace the Tornados that carry out an electronic attack role.

However, only the legacy F/A-18 Hornet — not the Super Hornet — was ever certified to carry the B61, wrote Justin Bronk (https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-defence-systems/german-decision-split-tornado-replacement-poor-one), a research fellow with the Royal United Services Institute, a U.K. based thinktank that covers defense issues. That means that the Super Hornet will have to go through the certification process, said Bronk, who called the split buy “the worst of all previously mooted outcomes.”

Boeing spokesman Justin Gibbons said that while the Super Hornet is not yet certified to carry the B61, the company has the U.S. government’s support for future integration.“The F/A-18 Super Hornet is capable of being certified to meet B61 requirements for Germany under its timeline. Boeing has a proven track record of successfully integrating weapons systems that meet the needs of both U.S. and international customers,” he said. Gibbons declined to comment on the timing of Germany’s deadline for competitive reasons..........

[BEagle]

Boeing has a proven track record of successfully integrating weapons systems that meet the needs of both U.S. and international customers

Such as the KC-46A?

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nuclear-row-over-us-jets-splits-angela-merkel-government-2jlqfb53q

Nuclear row over US jets splits Angela Merkel government

The German defence minister has angered her centre-left coalition partners by forging ahead with a plan to buy 45 US fighter jets, 30 of which will be fitted to carry American atom bombs.

Germany’s fleet of roughly 90 Tornado jets, the symbol of Berlin’s commitment to upholding the Nato nuclear umbrella, must be replaced from 2025. Yet Angela Merkel (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/topic/angela-merkel)’s coalition is rancorously divided over the next generation of nuclear-capable aircraft. The defence ministry, controlled by Mrs Merkel’s close ally Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rivals-turn-screw-as-mini-merkel-annegret-kramp-karrenbauer-dawdles-over-exit-d0gr5tltb), wants 90 Eurofighters from Airbus, the European aerospace giant, and 30 F-18 Super Hornets and 15 F-18 Growler jets from Boeing, its American rival. The left-wing Social Democratic party (SPD), however, is uncomfortable about spending so much on US hardware and its MPs insist on having a say in the decision.

The dispute came to a head on Sunday when it emerged that Mrs Kramp-Karrenbauer had emailed her US counterpart, Mark Esper, saying that Germany was ready to order the F-18s.

The US has about 150 B61-12 air-launched nuclear bombs in Europe, with 20 or so stored at the Büchel air base in western Germany. Opinion polls suggest that an overwhelming majority of the public want them gone but the government regards them as a pillar of the country’s Nato membership. Torben Schütz, a research fellow in security and defence policy at the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP), said the F-18 order was “very closely bound up with Germany’s continued role as an active partner in Nato’s shared nuclear deterrent”.

Anti-nuclear MPs have accused Mrs Kramp-Karrenbauer of cutting the Bundestag out of the decision. Fritz Felgentreu, the defence spokesman for the SPD group in the Bundestag, said it would withdraw its support for the ministry unless it changed course. “As long as we have no opportunity to examine the ministry’s choice, to evaluate it critically and to compare it against the alternatives, the SPD will certainly not go along with this process,” he said.

The nuclear question has taken on a sharper significance since Russia stationed large numbers of medium-range cruise missiles within striking range of European capitals. While the other seven EU states which house US bombs have all bought state-of-the-art F-35 fighter jets to carry them, Germany’s choice to acquire a combination of older models from Europe and the US reflects its delicate strategic tightrope act.

“Franco-German and US-German relations are at the centre of this in political terms,” Mr Schütz said. “If you order as many Eurofighters as possible you strengthen Airbus, which is . . . supposed to develop and build the next generation of fighter jets at the behest of the French and German governments. But at the same time it’s important for Germany to maintain relations with the US, which is where buying American aircraft helps.”

[weemonkey]

You'd think Germany didn't have any Typhoon infrastructure the way that nut job is talking.

[Speedywheels]

You'd think Germany didn't have any Typhoon infrastructure the way that nut job is talking.

What's your point? Yes, Germany has Eurofighter infrastructure but the aircraft doesn't have a strike capability. That's the real issue with the Tornado replacement for Germany.

[Asturias56]

The problem is the SPD rep has thrown the toys out of his pram because he didn't have a chance to grandstand and then negotiate a quid-pro-quo to let the decision go-ahead in return for a favour somewhere else. It's not one they're going to die in a ditch for as they know the electorate won't be impressed

[unmanned_droid]

Were they not offered Strike Eagle?!!

[Buster15]

Just goes to show that even 40 plus years on, the trusty Tornado takes some serious money and equipment to replace its full capabilities.

[pr00ne]

Were they not offered Strike Eagle?!!

I think they were looking for a modern aircraft, not an aircraft that first flew before the one they are trying to replace!

[West Coast]

I think they were looking for a modern aircraft, not an aircraft that first flew before the one they are trying to replace!

If date of the first first flight was a criteria, they wouldn’t have looked at the Hornet either. The F15EX isn’t your daddy’s F15A, same could be said for the Hornet’s Germany will be receiving. I would imagine mission criteria and budgeting drove the decision, not the date the prototype flew.

[Jackonicko]

When the Germans needed a replacement for the Lockheed F-104G in the strike role, the US piled on the pressure, aiming to persuade Germany to procure a US-built fighter.

In those far off days, the Germans had enough balls and backbone to procure the aircraft that their own industry was producing, that their own taxpayers and workers were benefiting from and effectively told the US that if they wanted the Luftwaffe to deliver American nuclear weapons, then they, the US, would have to integrate the B61 on their new Tornados.

It was very much in the USA's interest to 'burden share' with its allies, and it integrated B61 on the Tornado without further demur.

The same is true today, and if Germany were to stick to its guns again, the USA would need to decide whether it wanted the Luftwaffe to share in the strike role, and if it does (and it will) then it would have to integrate the B61 on the Luftwaffe's choice of platform. Unless a gutless and supine German Ministry of Defence gives the impression that it can be bullied into selecting the platform that the US wants it to procure....

Design of a nuclear weapons pylon for the Eurofighter is well advanced, thanks to the Belgian campaign, when the Commander of the Belgian Air Component was shown a strike mission in the sim/rig, with production representative software. Nuclear weapons integration on the Super Hornet is not any further advanced. For Speedywheels - the Super Hornet does not have any strike capability.

[Speedywheels]

For Speedywheels - the Super Hornet does not have any strike capability.

For Jackonicko - I don’t recall ever writing that it did

[golder]

I haven't followed it closely. Isn't the issue the germans wont/cant give the codes to the US and probably from the US side too. To be able to get it working with the eurofighter?

[chopper2004]

When the Germans needed a replacement for the Lockheed F-104G in the strike role, the US piled on the pressure, aiming to persuade Germany to procure a US-built fighter.

In those far off days, the Germans had enough balls and backbone to procure the aircraft that their own industry was producing, that their own taxpayers and workers were benefiting from and effectively told the US that if they wanted the Luftwaffe to deliver American nuclear weapons, then they, the US, would have to integrate the B61 on their new Tornados.

It was very much in the USA's interest to 'burden share' with its allies, and it integrated B61 on the Tornado without further demur.

The same is true today, and if Germany were to stick to its guns again, the USA would need to decide whether it wanted the Luftwaffe to share in the strike role, and if it does (and it will) then it would have to integrate the B61 on the Luftwaffe's choice of platform. Unless a gutless and supine German Ministry of Defence gives the impression that it can be bullied into selecting the platform that the US wants it to procure....

Design of a nuclear weapons pylon for the Eurofighter is well advanced, thanks to the Belgian campaign, when the Commander of the Belgian Air Component was shown a strike mission in the sim/rig, with production representative software. Nuclear weapons integration on the Super Hornet is not any further advanced. For Speedywheels - the Super Hornet does not have any strike capability.

Instead Belgians picked the F-35 (one of reasons I heard was B61 carriage).

So what bucket of sunshine capability do the USN Flattops have, pray then?? Seeming as the only strike a/c embarked is the Super Hornet as there are few Cs left ...(we don’t count the the USMC C and ads when embarked).

cheers

[West Coast]

Instead Belgians picked the F-35 (one of reasons I heard was B61 carriage).

So what bucket of sunshine capability do the USN Flattops have, pray then?? Seeming as the only strike a/c embarked is the Super Hornet as there are few Cs left ...(we don’t count the the USMC C and ads when embarked).

cheers

Other than a few in various niche roles, looks like the last of the C models are gone.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/10/07/navys-f-18c-classic-hornet-makes-final-flight.html

[unmanned_droid]

If date of the first first flight was a criteria, they wouldn’t have looked at the Hornet either. The F15EX isn’t your daddy’s F15A, same could be said for the Hornet’s Germany will be receiving. I would imagine mission criteria and budgeting drove the decision, not the date the prototype flew.

Thanks. I wouldn't give Super Hornet much of a look if offered a new Strike Eagle variant.

[Lyneham Lad]

On Flight Global:-
Germany outlines Tornado succession plan with Eurofighter and Super Hornet buy (https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/germany-outlines-tornado-succession-plan-with-eurofighter-and-super-hornet-buy/138049.article)

Germany hopes to have fully retired its Panavia Tornado combat aircraft in 2030, with the arrival of a successor aircraft to begin in 2025.

Berlin intends to acquire 45 Boeing Super Hornet-family aircraft for the requirement – 30 F/A-18E/Fs, plus 15 EA-18G Growler electronic warfare aircraft – alongside a further 55 Eurofighters.

An additional 38 examples of the European-built combat type will be purchased to replace the Luftwaffe’s tranche 1 Eurofighters.

While many within Germany had pushed for the acquisition of a single type, certain “special skills” possessed by the Tornado – carriage of US nuclear weapons and electronic warfare equipment – required the split-buy.

“For this purpose, the intention is to purchase 45 F-18 aircraft as a bridge solution for nuclear participation and airborne electronic combat,” says the German defence ministry.

While Germany is with France and Spain jointly developing a future combat air system (FCAS), this will not arrive until the 2040s.

“Therefore, there must be a bridge solution based on models available on the market for the time after the Tornado has become useless and before the FCAS is launched,” it says.

Although unions have argued that the selection of the US-built fighters would harm development activities and industrial capabilities required for the FCAS, this project “should not be endangered”, says the ministry.

“In order to maintain unbroken capability, procurement must start from 2025,” it says. “To be able to replace the Tornado in good time, the procurement process must therefore be started now.”

The Tornado is “no longer economical and no longer safe to operate” beyond 2030, says defence minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer.

The defence ministry describes the Super Hornets as “already fully developed and available on the armaments market”, and says initial talks with the US administration have already been held.

Partner nations “France and Great Britain were also included in the planning”, it adds.

Should German defence committee members agree with the acquisition proposals, detailed plans will be presented to the Bundestag “in the next legislative period” in 2022 or “probably” 2023.

“Knowing the established, also parliamentary, processes, we are only at the beginning of a procurement that will take years,” says the defence ministry.

[RAFEngO74to09]

So what bucket of sunshine capability do the USN Flattops have, pray then??

cheers
None for about the last 27 years - do keep up !

On board for Op DESERT STORM and then gone by 1993.

https://fas.org/blogs/security/2016/02/nuclear-weapons-at-sea/

[chopper2004]

What was the a Royal Navy / Royal Marines booklets saying at the back “give your ambitions a chance” and Back in the 70s there was interest in both sides for Luftwaffe F-14A...so that was quite ambitious.

HOME OF M.A.T.S. - The most comprehensive Grumman F-14 Reference Work - by Torsten Anft! (http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14a-export.htm)

Grumman even made up a patch as part of pitch


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/166x200/99d0f9e8_cce9_42e9_aba6_e7f59c512b96_ff6a274833d602275c076d2 447688900fe947e48.jpeg

Cheers

[Buster15]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-fighter-tornado-exclusive/exclusive-germany-sees-8-86-billion-euro-cost-to-operate-tornado-jets-through-2030-idUSKCN1RM219

Exclusive: Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030

BERLIN (Reuters) - The German Defence Ministry estimates it will cost nearly 9 billion euros to keep its aging fleet of 93 Tornado fighter jets flying until 2030, according to a classified document provided to German lawmakers this week. The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters.

Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter or Boeing Co’s F/A-18E/F fighter jet to replace its Tornado fleet in coming years, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter from a tender worth billions of euros. But neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter, built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA, are currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. That means Germany will be dependent on its Tornado fleet until it gets new certified planes - a process that could take years.

The estimate came in response to a query by lawmakers from the opposition Free Democrats, who have criticized the ministry for dropping the F-35 - the only aircraft already certified. The ministry did not specify the cost of operating the Tornado fleet until 2035, the current target, despite a specific request to do so from the lawmakers, and said it could adjust the retirement schedule.

Parliamentary sources said the estimate was even higher than expected at around 100 million euros per plane, and it would be cheaper to purchase new aircraft. However Germany’s sluggish defense procurement process, and the complicated process of certifying new aircraft to carry nuclear weapons, meant any new warplanes were unlikely to enter service until 2025 or even later.

Of Germany’s 93 Tornado jets, 85 are operated by the Luftwaffe, or air force, but not all are equipped to carry nuclear weapons. The remaining planes are used for training.

The current Tornado fleet has a combat readiness rate of under 40 percent, according to sources familiar with new ministry data. Germany in past years had published such data, but this year made the readiness of its weapons a classified matter for security reasons.



A lot of their problem is self inflicted. During the RAF Tornado fleet rundown and ultimate withdrawal from service, the German MoD had an opportunity to procure masses of spare parts.

For some reason they chose not to do that in a timely manner and the UK was able to sell much of their inventory to Saudi Arabia to support their similarly sized Tornado fleet.