Told you so

[Sam Ting Wong]

To the great amusement of Curtain Rod, Cxorcist, Shep, Trafalgar et al, I told you many many many times:

ACCEPT THE PAY OFFER, CC IS NOT WORKING

Now we will get NOTHING.



PS and a big thank you to our HKPA rebels. Well done, fools.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Possibly even worse than nothing when we get sold out for more productivity!

[McNugget]

Possibly even worse than nothing when we get sold out for more productivity!
I'd like to see how they could make me more productive.

[airplaneridesrfun]

stop acting like a bunch of girls. The airline can't fly without pilots.... grow a set of balls! The assistant mao mentioned 30% raises on the way. That is totally in line with my expectations and what we are underpaid by, and I demand nothing else. So should you. HKPA has threatened more $ than the HKPA raise they are seeking. That has been a company led win..... so lets move on with things.

[betpump5]

I thought we saw the last of you? You just couldn't stay away could you, Paul?

[GTC58]

Well, its pretty clear now what will be coming, productivity gains (raise in EFP threshold) and changes to expatriate housing. And of course do not forget the review of outport allowances.
It is also pretty clear that the HKAOA will not be able to do anything about it. It will be the take it or leave approach.
Anyone who deferred their command recently should reconsider. Upgrade now and after 1000 hours command experience many new job alternatives will be available.

[Average Fool]

This might be a great opportunity to get some things in return for a little sacrifice.

Like say....25 year housing?

[cxorcist]

The productivity and efficiency gains sought by CX are sitting there waiting to be utilized in the form of bases and the CMP. The question is whether the Company and the TUs are smart enough to utilize them in meaningful ways. I doubt it, sadly.

[Captain Dart]

STW, 'thank you' for voluntarily training all those cheap pilots. Gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling does it? You've done more damage to the bargaining position of those on my pay scale than the company could ever have done.

[Liam Gallagher]

Sam Ting Wong,

Do you seriously believe that the Company would have honoured the 2016 Pay Deal?

They would have reneged on the deal and you would still be getting nothing, however we would have signed away our industrial weapons. That is why the likes of Curtain Rod, Shep, CXorcist Trafalgar said walk away.

Are you new here or just a slow learner?

[mtc]

Seriously?? I think we've hit a new level of pessimism here. The company would have reneged their end of the deal and expected us to stay out of cc? Let's not forget that cc and tb are self imposed. Who is gonna stop me from continuing? "Industrial action." Right. The only thing I'll ever start doing again is finding out what I'm doing on reserve before they call. I think new joiner naivity is only matched by old timer fear of the worst. Once (ten times) bitten twice shy?

[Pucka]

the bottom line is that none..NONE of the culprits that should carry the cross on destroying this firm will get culled..not james Ginn..not martin Murray with his 2 kids at harrow.. not Ivan..with his major fcuk ups since his appointment..and hey.. maybe thats why JB resigned..who wouldn't if you suddenly realised you were working with cretins...

[wheels up]

Absolutely agree STW - years of blah blah and rah rah and what do we have to show - f.all - in fact we are all worse off - sometimes you have to be pragmatic and pick your battles.

Cc is dead in the water whether you like it or not with no end in sight, and there won't be a better deal on the table anytime soon.

[Dragon69]

Absolutely agree STW - years of blah blah and rah rah and what do we have to show - f.all - in fact we are all worse off - sometimes you have to be pragmatic and pick your battles.

Cc is dead in the water whether you like it or not with no end in sight, and there won't be a better deal on the table anytime soon.

Hilarious....and exactly which battles have you fought in the past to know any different? Better deal? Are you referring to that smelly piece of crap on offer last year? Amazing how quickly some roll over and play dead.

The sooner I leave this industry the sooner I won't have to listen to spineless buffoons like STW and wheelsup!

[Sam Ting Wong]

Rod, who said I am scared? You and your friends are the emotional ones.
For me this was and still is : business.
Nothing else.

You and your comrades declined a pay offer, declined a subtantial HKPA increase.

I did say this is foolish, and I was right.
I did say CC is not working, and I was right.
I did say attrition rate was low and it will continue to be so, and I was right.
I did say recruitment is not a problem, and I was right.

Now, thanks to your ignorance, we will get nothing ( if we are lucky ).

Thanks a lot !

[Zapp_Brannigan]

We get nothing, they get nothing.

CC is not working because they are not offering enough.

But it is hurting, as is the TB.
They just don't want to admit it, they are still trying their luck with bluffing.

Do you know how much CC and crewing issues impacted the operations last year?
On the freighter only, the delays caused only by lack of crew (not technical or loading issues) amounted to the equivalent of one B748 being AoG for 3 months!

How can the TB hurt less than last year when we lost so many trainers to retirement, resignations, medical issues...

Don't fold for their bluff!

StW, recruitment not a problem? Did you miss the part from the friday letter stating the we can't find enough pilots with suitable experience?

What has changed since the negotiations last year? The 500m hkd losses (of which, 7.5b hkd were due to the fuel hedging)?
Don't tell me you (or the management) didn't know it was coming?
That loss had always been known to the other side, and yet they offered something a few months ago.
The only thing that has changed is that people like STW are now even more scared by their own shadow than last year.

Don't accept anything worse than last time.
Don't forget that if we accept a sub-par offer, we won't have any more leverage for the next 10 years.
Don't accept a productivity increase for a meager pay raise that will be eaten by inflation in 2 years.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Hopeless. Simply hopeless.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Not really hopeless STW. My maths in early 2016 suggested the need for an, without hedging, 8 billion dollar profit to break even. The CX mathematicians would've calculated the same.

Amidst simple maths, based on long standing hedges, we were offered a deal.

It's simple really. But simple folk don't see simple things too clearly?

[Dragon69]

You're a fool anotherday. There has never been a 30% salary cut in the past. Do you have many sleepless nights trembling in constant fear? Let them try it on! You would be surprised as to how many would leave. There would be no financial incentive for many expats to stay. For many locals they would shift over to HKA.

[Average Fool]

You're missing the point Dragon.

The majority of this pilot group would roll right over like a beaten dog.

When has this group stood up to ANYTHING??

In typical fashion, the company will seek individual groups to take from knowing the majority will not oppose because "it doesn't affect me directly"

[Progress Wanchai]

What would motivate anyone to sign a "sign or be fired" contract apart from pure ignorance of who they are dealing with?

They've tried sign or be fired in the past but as we all know, didn't fire anyone.
Our current pay deal was rejected by the members with the threat that the deal would be off the table. It was improved.
RP07 was rejected with similar threats. Improvements were made.
No 49er would be rehired. Many are still here.
Will get one chance and one chance only to sign over to COS08. People have been changing contracts ad hoc ever since.
The list goes on.

They are bullies who make threats but never follow through.
They can't even repeat the sackings by a chemically fueled fool of 2001. That clause in our contract is currently suspended by the GFBAF. Couldn't imagine they would be in a rush to head back to court for more unfair dismissal hearings. The bases don't even have that clause.

AT will tell us that turnover is low. While low compared to other airlines, the first 3 months of 2017 has seen a 200% increase in departures from last year. By the nature of CX's work, training replacements is a time consuming process compared to airlines that have a high frequency domestic network. Our turnover is comparatively low. It has to be.
Now they are admitting they can't attract qualified crew. Somehow I don't think damaging their industrial relations image while simultaneously reducing the contract conditions will help much.

STW/anotherday,
I can't tell you not to be scared if a threat ever eventuates. If you need to keep the bedroom light on so be it. But you really should stop jumping at the shadows cast by the table lamp.

[McNugget]

Everyone would sign.

I would, then I'd look for another job.

Everyone would do that, too.

[OK4Wire]

Drag69: There has never been a 30% salary cut in the past

Wrong!

The Aus base (and maybe others, I cannot remember) had to take a 30% pay cut in '99.

Arranged by the union!!!

[Dragon69]

Drag69:

Wrong!

The Aus base (and maybe others, I cannot remember) had to take a 30% pay cut in '99.

Arranged by the union!!!

You're spouting utter BS.

[Ipad]

Dragon69, you have obviously not been here very long. Yes 23% pay cut for the Aussie base spread from 1999 to 2001, and lesser amounts for other bases. All pilots were given 3 months notice, i.e fired. ALL pilots signed at the 11th hour. The only change the AOA succeeded in making was the scope clause.

[spleener]

Dragon69, you have obviously not been here very long. Yes 23% pay cut for the Aussie base spread from 1999 to 2001, and lesser amounts for other bases. All pilots were given 3 months notice, i.e fired. ALL pilots signed at the 11th hour. The only change the AOA succeeded in making was the scope clause.


For the A scale Au base, was 30%. Agree the AOA had no input.

[EFIS Check]

Hi Frank,
What full time jobs are out there for experienced skippers that makes it worth the trouble and risk of resigning from this lot.
Show me a job for a company that has a reasonable culture, reasonable colleagues, long term prospects, net US$ 25-30k per month and +15 GDO's. If you do, this outfit has one less pissed off employee to worry about.
I am sure the mainland gigs (CSA, etc.) are ok'ish but far away from ideal.
As Andrew Marr would say, "I am all ears"

[goathead]

CSA etc etc
Are you listening! , up the ante and we will come IN DROVES !!

[spleener]

What Frank and EFIS are saying is true enough.

My perspective:

There is a significant demographic of elders [!] who can probably leave anytime, but quite enjoy the operation: Predominantly there's great people sharing a flight deck. For me, it's generally fun once HKG is in the rear view mirror and I enjoy my quiet times down route.

P155 me off completely Anna, I'll move along....OK? Not, necessarily into retirement.

[Mgggpilot]

Why don't you guys simply leave the company ??
What I can't understand is how can someone continue working in a place he doesn't like. Just LEAVE and stop moaning!

[Brown Nose]

Why don't you guys simply leave the company ??
What I can't understand is how can someone continue working in a place he doesn't like. Just LEAVE and stop moaning!

Seniority ********

[Sam Ting Wong]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-18/singapore-airlines-reports-surprise-loss-on-cargo-provisioning

5% was the offer. 5% plus housing. Plus 20 % HKPA.

[betpump5]

No It wasn't.

[Staggers]

5% was the offer. 5% plus housing. Plus 20 % HKPA.

Either way that ship has sailed so whar's your point?

[crwkunt roll]

Why don't you guys simply leave the company ??
What I can't understand is how can someone continue working in a place he doesn't like. Just LEAVE and stop moaning!
Cos he'll never get another one so easily.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Cathay Pacific posts HK$2.05 billion loss for first half of 2017
http://sc.mp/JA02SD

Just one final quick thank you to all NO voters.

Brilliant move.

[fire wall]

Just one final quick thank you to all NO voters.

Brilliant move.

STW if you were half as smart as you try to make your self out to be you would see this is a "manufactured" loss.
We have a new contact coming Oct 1st. Will that be the collective fault of the pilot body as well?

[Trafalgar]

Well, as the old Soviet saying goes: "if they pretend to pay me, i'll pretend to work".

[cyrex]

Funny how most of you still slam the YES voters. Do you only do this behind the safety of your computer? It is extremely weird and funny to see whenever I mentioned I voted YES for the deal during a flight, 99% of the people said they voted YES as well. :rolleyes:

[Sam Ting Wong]

Fire Wall,

in my opinion you and most in here are getting lost in a totally pointless moral argument.

When it comes to contract negotiations it doesn't matter if it is a "true" loss, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, it doesn't matter if management is stupid or what kind of boni they get. I don't even care who the person in charge is, it doesn't matter if they are in Stanford or sipping champagne on the peak, it doesn't matter if they have a pilots license, it doesn't matter if they abolish the salt and pepper shaker, it doesn't matter why people join as long as they do, it doesn't matter!

All that counts is what we can achieve in this moment and what is at stake.


Look at it from a car crash perspective:

You are on a motorcycle, a bus with managers comes your way.

Is it relevant who has right of way if you collide and you get decapitated ?

Or would it be smarter to brake in any case?

The loss will have a negative impact on us, if we like it or not, and YES it is our collective fault because we would have a 2 year contract that safeguards us until the hedging disaster is hopefully behind us.


Now, the reason I keep bringing this up is very simple:

you guys keep on posting like all is well, just a bit of a bump on the road to final victory!

I say: get real. Have an HONEST look at the average pay of other airlines, have a REALISTIC check of your working conditions/ roster compared to our competitors.

If you guys think this is all a bit of a joke, and if things fall apart you just go on that 300k contract, well think again. These contracts are rare, they have pitfalls, they require you to work much harder and give you zero protection. Everytime you praise other airlines you do cherry picking at best, it appears to me that most of you have no idea what the current packages elsewhere even look like!

95 % of B scalers would face SIGNIFICANT worse conditions elsewhere.I am talking losses of 50% plus! And you guys keep talking about what a c scaler should or shouldn't do, or if he is maybe better of st Emirates or BA. I just don't get it. It's like discussing politics on the deck of the titanic. What is the point???

We need to offer peace now or we will be face the consequences.

I hope the AOA GC and membership is more responsible today, but my hopes are not high.

[Dragon69]

It is extremely weird and funny to see whenever I mentioned I voted YES for the deal during a flight, 99% of the people said they voted YES as well. :rolleyes:

I see all the naive and gullible fools are out again. Even Trump's tweets are more intelligent than the above comment.

[Ipad]

Because the vote didn't go through, with the pay rise as it was, and/or hkpa, most of us will have to work a year or two more at the end of our careers for the same money. Dumb pilots.

[CowardlyPilot]

Those results are "get rid of housing" type results.

If ever they had an excuse, now is it

lol, should've voted it through

[Trafalgar]

The company and it's cretinous managers have stripped all value out of what was once arguably the most admired airline on earth. Now, having destroyed the chance of profit sharing for their staff (last decent payment a decade ago), they now strip the very value and promise from the very careers that most pilots have tied their and their families futures to. Get mad, get very mad.

[Trafalgar]

'get rid of housing' is the same as 'get rid of c and t and all your experience' we'll soon see who's bluffing. I for one am not, and will state so publicly.

[CowardlyPilot]

experience(17 Year Captains) cost a lot of money, I'm sure all the quick upgrades(cheap captains) will love that

[Strewth]

http://www.iata.org/publications/economics/fuel-monitor/Documents/ChartB.png

Barnaby Swire replaced Hughes-Hallett as chairman and cousin Merlin Swire became chief executive of John Swire & Sons end of 2014. Merlin’s brother Sam worked for the London firm becoming a Cathay non-exec same time Cubbon returned in Jan 2015.

Dan Buster is right, turbo cuts, hay while the sun shines. I'd tip this punt came from London, Hallett, Chu couple more liked the roughie and wanted the hedge, Barnaby, Hogg, Bingham against, Slosar impartial or abstaining, walking and talkings a challenge for the rest, this punt was above muppets pay grade, explains the aftermath and regardless of PPOB no one likes reminding of a bad punt, end of. October; Adults 1 Sycophants Nil.

Barnaby Swire (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnaby_Swire) Wiki. James Hughes-Hallett (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hughes-Hallett) Wiki. Merlin Bingham Swire (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_Bingham_Swire) Wiki Samuel Compton Swire (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Compton_Swire) Wiki

[Trafalgar]

Airlines fail due to their myopic view of 'cost'. Their managers know the cost of everything and the value of nothing (other than their own bonuses). You sound just like the type they are looking for Cowardly, helping their narrative. Ultimately, i've made my money and will leave on my terms. I am genuinely sad for those whose careers will be blighted by the ultimate failure of CX. It's probably inevitable at this point, just a matter of when and how.

[Progress Wanchai]

Look closely at the numbers. It's basically a $1 Billion dollar profit, destroyed by a $3 Billion dollar fuel hedging loss.

You're being very generous to the muppets Dan.

Don't forget the 4 billion dollar cash flow hedge loss. If the bean counters had done exactly NOTHING we'd have made 5 billion dollars on a turnover of 46B.
I think most airlines would be on cloud 9 with an 11 percent profit margin. This airline unfortunately makes financial decisions while being on cloud 9.
Ice addicts running a pharmacy would be more financially responsible.

[spleener]

Hopeless. Simply hopeless.

STW. I'd have accepted a better '$' offer. It was the attached 'conditions' that that overrode my greed!
Your viewpoint is a myopic case of short term gain, long term pain. - And; where with your strategy would we stand from a bargaining point right now??
Think it's a case of blowing smoke up my old jet pipe and telling me I'm on fire actually. Now that rhetoric IS hopeless.

[cyrex]

I see all the naive and gullible fools are out again. Even Trump's tweets are more intelligent than the above comment.

Just stating the fact. Don't really care what your delusional self thinks.

[Kitsune]

https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2017-08-16/is-cathay-s-late-show-a-final-bow-for-independence?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=bd&utm_campaign=headline&cmpId=yhoo.headline&yptr=yahoo

[crwkunt roll]

If any manager gets any bonus this year, we should seriously down tools. Cabin crew too.
Aside, I don't see how me voting YES could have stopped them cocking up the fuel hedge!

[Ipad]

No you don't see and the sentence, re the vote and hedge, doesn't make sense. What we and our GC should have seen, as the hedging screw up was known at the vote time, was the bad times ahead and grabbed what was on the table. That deal is now in the garbage can and it's only going to get worse from here on on. Stupid strategic positioning by the HKAOA.

[Dragon69]

And you somehow believe that if things were so dire that they would actually honour the last TA had it passed??? How long have you been at CX?? You do know that they have a filthy record of reneging on agreements and promises, right??

So if anyone here is dilusional it's some of you who think that things would be all roses had the TA passed.

[Flex88]

No you don't see and the sentence, re the vote and hedge, doesn't make sense. What we and our GC should have seen, as the hedging screw up was known at the vote time, was the bad times ahead and grabbed what was on the table. That deal is now in the garbage can and it's only going to get worse from here on on. Stupid strategic positioning by the HKAOA.

Hindsight is "always" 20/20 jackass :rolleyes:

Is this as good as it gets ???

[cyrex]

And you somehow believe that if things were so dire that they would actually honour the last TA had it passed??? How long have you been at CX?? You do know that they have a filthy record of reneging on agreements and promises, right??

So if anyone here is dilusional it's some of you who think that things would be all roses had the TA passed.

How long have you been at CX? You take the money and deal with it later! Not honouring the TA? Fine, then we can vote to do IA. It's time to grow some balls instead of suggesting what ifs.

[FreemaninHK]

How long have you been at CX? You take the money and deal with it later! Not honouring the TA? Fine, then we can vote to do IA. It's time to grow some balls instead of suggesting what ifs.

Industrial action? Guys get even stop going into discretion.. no one is gonna park a plane..how long have you been here? Its every man for himself. Full Stop.

[Dragon69]

How long have you been at CX? You take the money and deal with it later! Not honouring the TA? Fine, then we can vote to do IA. It's time to grow some balls instead of suggesting what ifs.

I'm fairly certain longer than you. The problem with just taking the money, as others have pointed out several times before dumb @ss, is that you were giving away everything in the process.

A completely sub-standard TA barely got rejected, and you think the same group that voted YES will vote for IA? Good luck with that!

[Liam Gallagher]

Cyrex,

You gotta read the fine print of any deal. The company has a colourful history of reneging on deals and to suggest that our response would have been to vote IA indicates that you haven't thought this through.

Who would have organised the vote? The GC?... Nope, because under the terms of the TA they had to recommend against future IA let alone organise a vote. You? Nope, because the company's lawyers would have been all over you.

Bought any Snake Oil recently?