SAR S-92 Missing Ireland

[Same again]

I don't know whether this is relevant because we do not know what they where attempting to do towards the later part of the flight. However, Weather Radar can be tricky to set up correctly to pick up obstacles on the surface of the sea, especially if a turn is involved at sufficient height that when the turn is complete the radar sweep is now looking over the top of the obstacles. Or in other words, the descent angle from the helicopter is too steep for the radar to sweep the flight trajectory.


SAR helicopters use a search radar for let downs - not a weather radar. A different animal. In conjunction with FLIR and EGPWS the resulting picture is very accurate and large buoys can be detected easily. A cliff face or island would be obvious. Particularly so from 200 feet which is the level at which the helicopter would be 2 miles from the target.

[tistisnot]

FC80 - top cover (fixed wing) here would have been IMC and probably heard a landing call. Switch off, all safe. A satellite tracking system could have pinpointed the final tracked position if you paid for the more frequent 20 sec burst and had a true flight follower covering the SAR flight and seeing the last report probably just short of the HLS.

Especially relevant when ELT's etc fail to deploy / activate. You have an immediate position and can engage RCC. Of course mutual support would provide a rescue possibility but fixed wing only possibly air-drop a survival raft / kit. Depends upon your budget. CHC uses SkyTrac extensively in the rest of the world - it works well.

[212man]

SAR helicopters use a search radar for let downs - not a weather radar. A different animal. In conjunction with FLIR and EGPWS the resulting picture is very accurate and large buoys can be detected easily. A cliff face or island would be obvious. Particularly so from 200 feet which is the level at which the helicopter would be 2 miles from the target.
Not sure what you mean precisely, but the SAR S92 uses the Honeywell Primus wx radar: https://aerocontent.honeywell.com/aero/common/documents/myaerospacecatalog-documents/Helicopters-documents/Primus_700A-701A_for_SAR.pdf

[[email protected]]

DB - :ok:I don't know the CHC SOPs and I don't know how good their radar is (not a search radar I'm pretty sure though, that was what we had on the SK) but an IP over 10 Nm away from the intended LS is rather extreme.

We used to let down from MSA well within 5 Nm and the final trans down from 200' was at about 1.25nm.

There may well have been other factors such as radar contacts as I explained earlier that may have affected their letdown procedure.

IIRC the S-92 has the facility to mark a target on top at 1000' (or whatever the required height is) and then complete a fully automatic letdown to the hover.

As for continuing IMC below MSA, we had special dispensation to do so because of the accuracy of the radar and the crew composition (dedicated radar operator) - again I know not what the CG AOC permits.

[jimf671]

The whole 'top cover isn't required due to SATCOM' is a bit of a non-argument in my opinion.

SATCOM is far from perfect and even the most modern systems can still suffer from delays, drop-outs, lack of clarity and all the other issues anyone who's used them much will know about.

In a hover at 50 feet hundreds of miles out to sea it's a much nicer option to have LOS VHF comms at the press of a button with someone sitting above you watching instead of -

'Engine failure, does anyone have the number for the ARCC handy?

0044... splosh.

Please hang up and try again' :hmm:


Agreed.

In the UK, we are still mourning the loss of a world-class electronics suite and a working bomb-bay overhead.

Meanwhile, still messing with improvisations seven years later and no clarity on the SAR role of the next generation of MPA. No amount of armchair comms toys can replace the on-scene presence of skilled aviation professionals with good maritime tools at their disposal.

The warm fuzzy feeling that Crab referred to earlier is known to be available in a variety of strengths.

[rotorspeed]

DB

Why would you have used Blackrock for an IP for the approach to Blacksod out of interest? It would have added 10 mins to flight time (when you need fuel), is 300ft elevation and has presumably similar lighting to the Blacksod refuelling destination lighthouse, which is also surrounded by flattish ground? On another point, anyone know if Blacksod had any weather reporting? And if not, given its function as a remote refuelling base, surely it should do for the relatively modest cost involved? What weather would the crew have had to best indicated what to expect at Blacksod?

[Beaucoup Movement]

If the crew were letting down to Blackrock to get visual underneath then the track they took seems reasonable for a straight in approach into wind (based on the info from the map from a previous post. Now, looking at that map, they appear to have gone around to the north-west, either because they didn't have sufficient visual references or because of a technical problem (which we still don't know at this stage of course).

What is puzzling me is why they took a left turn back towards Blackrock downwind & possibly low level especially at night? If the cloud base was 300-400ft & the lighthouse being 300ft above sea level on blackrock then there was a chance they wouldn't have seen it from the last known position just short of the island. Could it have been a case of being in a very vulnerable position, i.e; Vortex Ring? low forward indicated airspeed with a tail wind descending towards a very big wall of rocks & realising what was going on but then being too late when trying to pull power - too close to the ground?

Or some sort of technical problem either at a similar time of potential Vortex ring state (which would be extremely unfortunate) or from the initial go-around worsening?

RIP to such a talented & experienced crew... very sad time for all :(

[Same again]

Not sure what you mean precisely, but the SAR S92 uses the Honeywell Primus wx radar:

Operated in the sea search mode for let downs. DB was talking about WX radar.

[SASless]

BM,

Just a what If.....assume the Crew was going to use Blackrock for an IP for a let down to Blacksod....and had a Technical issue it may have caused a need to amend their plan to perform a precautionary landing at Blackrock.

At this point anything is possible......and all of these questions should begin to be answered if the CVR/Data Recorders can be recovered and are in good condition.

[Thunderbirdsix]

Guys if any of you wish to leave a message of condolence check out the fan page for Rescue 115 where there is all the info on Rescue 116, hard to believe but over a million people have visited the page since the accident.link below


https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/


Granuaile getting equipment including submersible loaded in Galway Harbour


https://twitter.com/fcorby/status/843094580220313600

[MarkD]

The dispute above as to whether 116 was doing top cover or mutual support seems a bit silly - was 116 not the plan B for the unavailable *top cover* CASA?

One hopes that the investigation digs into plan A as deeply as it will the technical sequence of events which led to the loss of the aircraft and crew, even if that embarrasses command officers or ministers.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

CRAB, thanks for your explanation. Rotorspeed, my choice of Blackeock as an IP is based on bugger all experience of the area or the SAR AP modes in the 92. However, armed with what I have flown over the ocean I would expect the radar return looking back East towards the coast to look very busy. 13 Km for an IP is nothing really when we use 6-7 No this days for the Base turn onto an ARA final with an uncluttered Radar return and one clean target destination.

It just seems to make sense that before getting close the the bay coastline you take the significant obstacle out of play i.e. Blackrock.

Like I said though I am not pontificating from a strong position experience wise rather I just think the flight path the trace implies is not too unreasonable.

Only one other thing I notice and that is the base turn on the trace looks very tight. It may be just the scale of it or it could mean they were very rapidly trying to course reverse. Anyone have an opinion on this?

[AnglianAV8R]

DB, the base turn may not necessarily be as tight as drawn on a GPS track trace. Remember, it is simply a series of positions at fixed time intervals and the line drawn between does not always accurately depict the actual track flown.

[buzz66]

Both FMS Computers will be of particular interest to the Investigation Team.
The FDR won't give them the "Planned" FMS Data.
Pretty sure the Individual doing the Flight Following IE Flight Track/Skywatch/Skytrack....whatever you want to call it has already asked plenty of questions.

I see Skytrack as a marketing tool and feel good thing for Oil & Gas Heli Op's,.....But SAR/EMS is a whole different story.
It's as good as ATC these days. It's as good as a third Pilot.

Modern Tech is only as good as the Individual/s interpreting/believing/monitoring & acting on the data as presented.
When confronted with the choice of optimism verses reality, most choose optimism because reality is just to confrontational to deal with.

BTW if the range on the Moving Map is scaled in tight, and it would be during approach......both Blackrock & Blacksod would look very much the same. Both are fringe coastal, both have have a lighthouse adjacent, both are approached from the water, depending on wind direction

The Stars all aligned the wrong way on this fateful night.

[El Bunto]

The dispute above as to whether 116 was doing top cover or mutual support seems a bit silly - was 116 not the plan B for the unavailable *top cover* CASA?

If top-cover is felt to be a necessity for SAR then that should be baked into the tender and bid cost.

If the parties involved decide to go ahead and low-ball without it, subbing helis when they can't persuade someone to give them non-contracted, non-guaranteed, unpaid fixed-wing top-cover, well... I know where the embarrased faces should be. Not at Air Corps HQ, Baldonnel.

[MarkD]

If top-cover is felt to be a necessity for SAR then that should be baked into the tender and bid cost.

If the parties involved decide to go ahead and low-ball without it, subbing helis when they can't persuade someone to give them non-contracted, non-guaranteed, unpaid fixed-wing top-cover, well... I know where the embarrased faces should be. Not at Air Corps HQ, Baldonnel.If top cover was not to be called upon because it's a contractor responsibility, why would the DF have entertained the request at all, instead of pleading personnel shortages now?

[Michael Gee]

may have missed this
but why should there be 2 refueling possibilities within a few miles of each other?

[AnglianAV8R]

may have missed this
but why should there be 2 refueling possibilities within a few miles of each other?

I believe there aren't. Blackrock is not a refuel point.

[[email protected]]

The whole top-cover issue simply wan't a problem when we had a Royal Air Force that was interested in SAR and maritime aviation.

Any long-range jobs (more than 150Nm) from the Irish coast were done by RAF SAR from Valley or Chivenor or in extremis Navy SAR from Culdrose and Prestwick (RAF Sea Kings had the greater range).

Top cover was provided by the Nimrod fleet, as Jim671 has highlighted, with experienced maritime aviators, extensive comms and surveillance suite and the ability to drop liferafts and supplies.

All this went in relatively short order with the demise of the Nimrod and the contractorisation of the Mil SAR Force.

Somewhere in the change over, responsibility for the area W of Ireland was handed back to the Irish CG and Govt - if they didn't elect to provide adequate replacements then that is a matter for them.

However, having said that, it is the UK SRR (Search and Rescue Region) that extends much further West than a helicopter than reach - therefore should it not still be a UK responsibility?

[cncpc]

Would this new machine perhaps have been equipped with the Sikorsky Rig Approach System?

[Red5ive]

Granuaile has left Galway Docks for Black Sod.

It took on extra equipment, including what looks like a underwater RV

[OnePerRev]

Godspeed, and enough of the foul weather.


Families need word, and less importantly, the Salt water will destroy many aerospace materials the longer the exposure. And no official word on what the 'significant piece of wreckage' is.

[Galwayguy]

Granuaile has left Galway Docks for Black Sod.

It took on extra equipment, including what looks like a underwater RV

It is an rv & I would of thought that the Celtic Explorer, which also has cranes & survey equipment would follow along.

[smcc63]

Which is why I asked the question back in post #93. I would be surprised if they were not using NVD on this type of mission, but maybe someone closer to this could answer.

A further important enhancement is in the pipeline, beginning in autumn 2014. Night Vision Goggle (NVG) equipment will be introduced, with the aim of being fully established across the fleet within 18 months.

[Red5ive]

It is an rv & I would of thought that the Celtic Explorer, which also has cranes & survey equipment would follow along.

Looks like the one from Celtic Explorer
Deepwater ROV | Marine Institute (http://www.marine.ie/Home/site-area/infrastructure-facilities/research-vessels/deepwater-rov)

Celtic Explorer looks like it off on some other task. On marinetraffic it is shown stopped between Blackhead and Ballyvaughan.
http://www.marine.ie/Home/site-area/infrastructure-facilities/research-vessels/track-vessel

[reefrat]

Celtic Explorer was tasked to the site,, may have been redirected

[Red5ive]

Celtic Explorer was tasked to the site,, may have been redirected

Its in the link I posted above
Blue whiting acoustic survey (18/03/2017 to 07/04/2017)

[212man]

Would this new machine perhaps have been equipped with the Sikorsky Rig Approach System?

No, but it does have the SAR AFCS, which is more comprehensive and includes some of the modes that the Rig Approach uses, such as Velocity Hold.

[Galwayguy]

Its in the link I posted above

Seems a bit strange to be tasked back to fish. They may only get windows of opportunity & you think that they would want all their assets available.

Another priority must be to get back on the Island for a full search.

[[email protected]]

So it seems feasible, if the information we have so far is all correct, that they may have clipped Black Rock during the letdown (debris on the rock that could not have been washed up) and then tried to keep control of the damaged aircraft and elect (or had no choice) to make a water landing.

This landing was clearly a hard one but survivable (at least for a short while) for one of them since you don't get thrown out of the cockpit of an S92 if you are properly strapped in.

The whys and wherefores of the choice of letdown position will only come from the accident investigation but, like so many accidents, it probably won't have one cause but many contributory factors where all the holes in the swiss cheese have lined up.

Lets hope the wreckage and the remaining crew-members can be recovered soon, for the sakes of all involved.

[JimL]

Does Blacksod have an APV or PinS let down procedure?

Jim

[snakepit]

I'm sure they had iPads on board, use and capability guided by SOP. In any case they have Euronav mapping available on the big screens, again subject to SOP guidance.

https://flyinginireland.com/2015/03/irish-coast-guard-enhancing-capabilities/

The article above is very enlightening but I believe it relates to the specifications of the 92 brought in for the contract straight from Sikorsky? Of note is the fact that it had EuroNav in the front which is being taken as indication that all the Irish CG S92s are the same.

Question - were the 4 aircraft that were transferred from the CHC UK Interim SAR contract also updated to have EuroNav? When they served the contract in the UK they were not fitted with EuroNav in the front so there may be a difference in aircraft modification states across the fleet. The lack of mapping in the front of 4 of the 5 aircraft might mean slightly different procedures are required depending upon which aircraft the crews are in.

The article also shows the Sikorsky derived S92 was based at Sligo whereas the Dublin aircraft was from the UK contract and therefore may not have had EuroNav mapping in the cockpit? Speculation based on what the crews may have done using a mapping system that no one is sure was actually fitted will not help, but knowing for sure what the actual fit was may be of more help?

[Galwayguy]

So it seems feasible, if the information we have so far is all correct, that they may have clipped Black Rock during the letdown (debris on the rock that could not have been washed up) and then tried to keep control of the damaged aircraft and elect (or had no choice) to make a water landing.

This landing was clearly a hard one but survivable (at least for a short while) for one of them since you don't get thrown out of the cockpit of an S92 if you are properly strapped in.

The whys and wherefores of the choice of letdown position will only come from the accident investigation but, like so many accidents, it probably won't have one cause but many contributory factors where all the holes in the swiss cheese have lined up.

Lets hope the wreckage and the remaining crew-members can be recovered soon, for the sakes of all involved.

Is there any scenario where she wasn't in the cockpit ? Are there evac hatches in the windows ? Why didn't any of the epirbs trigger ?

The problem, with the debris on the rock, is it depends on where it's found & how heavy it is. Light debris could easily be blown on to the rock or washed up. Any heavy debris, above the strandline, must of either fallen there as part of a mechanical failure or as a result of a collision.

But to me the big question is why were they anywhere near the only obstacle ? From memory Blacksod would be a gentle, flat approach from the sea with no obstacles. I also wonder why you would fly so far out before turning in to approach ?

I watch these helicopters a lot - I live by the sea. I have seen them come over Black Head (around 300 metres) & descend into the bay. I have even seen them descend from the hover. So why go 10 miles out to sea ?

[212man]

Does Blacksod have an APV or PinS let down procedure?

Jim
I don't think APV is suited to a helipad, whereas PinS would be. I very much doubt there is such a procedure, but suspect there may be future!

[fisbangwollop]

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0319/860852-rescue-116-search/

[coyote_ie]

Guys suggesting casualty on the fishing vessel had a minor hand injury, not life or Death! If true, serious questions have to be asked as to why two helicopters were launched at night in poor weather conditions.

[[email protected]]

Coyote - it is very common for a casualty aboard a vessel who gets a SAR helo launched, not to be anything like as bad as anticipated.

One reason is that a land-based doctor is often consulted by radio/phone and they will always err on the side of caution since they can't see the casualty and make a real assessment for themselves.

The job I mentioned earlier - 250 Nm West of Ireland was for a crewmember with 'appendicitis' , when we turned up, he was standing on the deck quite happily with his suitcase in hand and, we subsequently discovered, didn't stay that long in hospital at Shannon.

Part of the job I'm afraid.

[AAKEE]

The job I mentioned earlier - 250 Nm West of Ireland was for a crewmember with 'appendicitis' , when we turned up, he was standing on the deck quite happily with his suitcase in hand and, we subsequently discovered, didn't stay that long in hospital at Shannon.

Part of the job I'm afraid.


Yes, and also the other way around - injured person standing and smoking on arrival - doctor very angry due to this - X-ray later showed this guy actually could have died by twisting the head. This was not GB or Ireland, but sure that happens for you guys also.


To make the decision to launch or not to launch isn't always that easy.

[SASless]

Seemed our flights in really atrocious weather always turned out to be some fellow that missed his crew change from the Rig or who wanted be on scene when his next child was conceived! But that was in a location in West Africa working in the Oil Patch. Those were offset by the genuine flights where. people really needed transport to a medical facility even if there were no first rate Trauma Centers.

[malabo]

I don't think APV is suited to a helipad, whereas PinS would be. I very much doubt there is such a procedure, but suspect there may be future!

I agree, a single snapshot at DH of a solitary helipad without thousands of feet of lead-in lights is not ideal. The preferred LNAV (what you call PinS) is fine for approaches over flat terrain like Blacksod where the MDA would only be 50' higher than an APV (in Canada, EASA may be different). We had them in SE Asia, east coast Canada (Sable Island?), all privately commissioned by the helicopter operator and retrievable from the FMS database. They couldn't have cost much.

The financial cost of this tragedy will probably be close to 100m, so a consideration.

[SASless]

The presence of signicant amounts of wreckage or important parts definitely will be of use in the investigation 's efforts to determine what happened.

There are many ways such wreckage could come to rest as it did...but examination of the pieces and the sequence in which they are positioned along the track of the aircraft will tell the story. Damage to the pieces can also point to a cause.

A very close examination of Blackrock should uncover signs of contact if that is what happened.

Recovery of the CVR and Data Recorder will yield the best account hopefully!

[Apate]

There was mention earlier in the thread that the component may have belonged to the tail section, possibly a TRGB?



I've looked but can't locate any such reference. Can you provide a link or message number?

[cncpc]

I believe it was sourced to one of the papers from Mr. Whyte.

[wian132]

Hi everyone, I've been following the last 10 or so pages on this. Very sad what happened. RIP.

Regarding the wreckage found on Blackrock, I saw a post on a different forum regarding it. I don't think a lot of people noticed the post. I am just quoting and not sure how accurate the information is.

"the wreckage, part of the tail, was found in the island in the area between the lighthouse and the adjoining building"

[albatross]

Perhaps they got it from Trump.
I do not like the "I heard XXXX but can't say where or from whom"
If you can't name a credible source please don't post.
Especially in cases such as this one.
Just my opinion.

[Apate]

P9 : 177/180

There's no reference other than what I would presume hearsay or word of mouth but it's come from 2 different posters.

Thanks. I was searching for a link, but I see all we have is a couple of "I've heard...." statements without even a source being quoted.

I hear lots of rumours in crewrooms, most of which turns out to be complete bo**ocks :}.

Hopefully things will become clearer sooner rather than later. :ok:

[Triskelle]

Looking at the LKP on the larger scale map of post #115, it appears to be on the N side of Blackrock. Also the pic in post #140 shows the helipad to be on the N side of the lighthouse - which would be consistent with the turn NW then turn ESE to approach the helipad. The weather reports from the nearest stations suggest that conditions around Blackrock would have been a cloud base around 200-300 ft with visibility reduced in RA/DZ and a SW'ly wind around 20kt. As a meteorologist, a stable SW'ly airstream of that strength passing over an obstacle such as Blackrock would have produced a severe downdraft on the N side of the rock (like a 'hydraulic jump' airflow) - in such situations I've known of 10 metre yachts to be flattened or even dis-masted. So if they were below the 300ft summit of the rock (perhaps with the intention of climbing to approach the helipad IFR in cloud) the downdraught conditions below the cloud base on the N side of Blackrock could well have been very difficult even for a S92.

[SASless]

Why would they be trying to land at Blackrock if the stated destination of Blacksod was at near sea level on flat ground?

[Light Buffet]

Disappointing to see the crackpot theories starting to appear. I guess this is the vacuum being filled.

When I check my vacuum at home, it is usually full of rubbish.

[212man]

Why would they be trying to land at Blackrock if the stated destination of Blacksod was at near sea level on flat ground?
From the g/s and a/s information we have, they clearly weren't!

[OnePerRev]

Looking at the LKP on the larger scale map of post #115, it appears to be on the N side of Blackrock. Also the pic in post #140 shows the helipad to be on the N side of the lighthouse - which would be consistent with the turn NW then turn ESE to approach the helipad. The weather reports from the nearest stations suggest that conditions around Blackrock would have been a cloud base around 200-300 ft with visibility reduced in RA/DZ and a SW'ly wind around 20kt. As a meteorologist, a stable SW'ly airstream of that strength passing over an obstacle such as Blackrock would have produced a severe downdraft on the N side of the rock (like a 'hydraulic jump' airflow) - in such situations I've known of 10 metre yachts to be flattened or even dis-masted. So if they were below the 300ft summit of the rock (perhaps with the intention of climbing to approach the helipad IFR in cloud) the downdraught conditions below the cloud base on the N side of Blackrock could well have been very difficult even for a S92.


The downdraft off the mountain is an interesting theory, I seem to remember from my (Many years ago) college weather classes, that the disturbance can be higher than the object itself as well. Even if they had the lack of visibility under control, dealing with that kind of sudden and local turbulence could easily add additional workload. That looks to be like a formidable island from the sea perspective, but you add a mystery about the air.

[minimaman]

Has the final speed approaching blackrock been clairified as 90kts?On marinetraffic
the final transmission from Rescue 116
gives a heading of 098 degrees and a groundspeed of only 9kts
See attached image which also shows the exact final
position in relation to Blackrock island.
At Blacksod while approaching from the west one would need to letdown 50m before the lighthouse.Attempting the same at blackrock would quickly lead to danger as when heading on the same track one would encounter steep terrain before the lighthouse.If there were clouds as reported at 300ft this would be challenging.The AIS data does suggest controlled flight until the final position shown.

1938

[SASless]

Triskelle raises an interesting point.....just what magnitude of downdraft could be experienced at Blackrock with a 20 Knot Southwesterly Wind blowing?

How high above Blackrock could that down flow of air be encountered?

If the Aircraft was on some sort of FMS SAR mode tracking inbound towards Blacksod.....could the aircraft have lost height as it was tracking overhead Blackrock and the crew not have time to counter the ROD produced by the down draft?

Yes.....I know.....just "what iffing it" a bit in following up on his comment.

I know from experience a 45 Knot Wind over an offshore platform can produce some really sporty turbulence on the down wind side......20 Knots seemed to be just some bumps and wiggles.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

20 kts rotoring over a descending helicopter at little or no airspeed would cause problems. However it would do very little to a large helicopter at cruise speed.
Oneperev, what you are describing is Mountain Waves.

[SuperF]

I wouldn't even be concerned about the machine possibly getting in the lee of a rock in a 20 kt wind. If that helicopter cannot handle those conditions, then they have one precious little puppy on their hands, that shouldn't be used in anything but clear blue days. Now i don't think is the case, but that is where this convo is heading.

And when the knives come out for me, actually yes i do fly, and have just recently come off a job operating fully loaded, in the lee of a 2000' hill, in 32 kt gusting 65, along with smoke mixed in, and we were required to do relatively precise drops on fires to save houses. There were a number of helicopters doing it, from 120's, 350, 355, BK and UH1's all on the fire, and they all handled it, and I'm sure that a 92 would be able to handle those conditions as well.

[[email protected]]

Look at the shape of Blackrock and the fact it is isolated - the wind will blow around it with only a small amount of turbulence at the top - an approach even 15 degrees out of wind would avoid that turbulence and any downdraughting would be absolutely minimal.

[Ber Nooly]

I don't really agree with the downdraft theory. The island is only 400 metres long at its longest part and only max 82 metres high, so minimal scope for a downdraft. That final AIS fix, showing it on the westerly point of the island at 9 knots (but we don't know at what altitude), and where the search is happening 60 metres to the east of the island (so both points about 500 metres apart), with reports of debris on the island, don't suggest a downdraft issue. At that speed and with the distance between the two points so far it just doesn't add up for me. And it doesn't explain why they said they were on their final approach to BlackSOD, 10 NM to the east.

[212man]

Has the final speed approaching blackrock been clairified as 90kts?On marinetraffic
the final transmission from Rescue 116
gives a heading of 098 degrees and a groundspeed of only 9kts
See attached image which also shows the exact final
position in relation to Blackrock island.
At Blacksod while approaching from the west one would need to letdown 50m before the lighthouse.Attempting the same at blackrock would quickly lead to danger as when heading on the same track one would encounter steep terrain before the lighthouse.If there were clouds as reported at 300ft this would be challenging.The AIS data does suggest controlled flight until the final position shown.

1938
I can't see your image on my phone, but the image I posted previously clearly shows 098 at 90 kts.

[Ber Nooly]

I can't see your image on my phone, but the image I posted previously clearly shows 098 at 90 kts.

Yes, your image shows it at 90 knots but a little further west of the island than minimaman's one.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/592162-sar-s-92-missing-ireland-6.html#post9708155

[[email protected]]

That last position would appear to be about that of the water entry so the heading and speed may well be correct - as to whether it was controlled entry or not we will find out later.

[Ber Nooly]

That last position would appear to be about that of the water entry so the heading and speed may well be correct - as to whether it was controlled entry or not we will find out later.

No, water entry would appear to be EAST of the island. The dive area is 60 metres east of the island.

The commander of the LE Eithne Irish Naval vessel was on radio this morning. Tomorrow will give them a window for diving. Listen to him here (http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9_21146986_0__)

[[email protected]]

OK, well that is even more confusing.

[Red5ive]

OK, well that is even more confusing.

On Sunday the two small crafts, Geo and An Gearoidin (see attached jpg), were concentrating on the south east area just off the island.

When you look at the last position with the projected path turned on, its almost in line with the helipad on the Open Street Map overlay. Which makes no sense...

[212man]

Yes, your image shows it at 90 knots but a little further west of the island than minimaman's one.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/592162-sar-s-92-missing-ireland-6.html#post9708155
Still very strange as my image was if the last remaining position on the marine map. Curious!

[minimaman]

It still appears from the AIS data that the heli approached blackrock from the west tracking east with a track of 098 degrees as previously shown.It may have clipped the lighthouse outbuildings or something above the westerly cliff,at this point with severe loss of controlability from a compromised aircraft theoretically the heli could have ended up ditching anywhere around the islands perimeter?however the westerly side would have been the more obvious choice given the laws of physics.i guess all will be known when the fdr and cvr are retrieved the whole thing is very sad especially when these great pros saved so many people themselves.

[gulliBell]

Any idea how deep the water is in the search area?

[ConnemaraFarmer]

Any idea how deep the water is in the search area?

In or around 40 meters I believe.

[GJOYT]

Has anyone listened to live atc for the hours after R116 went missing? At around 0250am R118 and R115 start searching the BlackSOD bay area. If only they had have known R116's last known position on AIS they could have started searching there instead of the wrong area and possibly have found the captain in the water sooner. I'm still listening to it at present. Does anyone know where they found the captain in the water? Was it close to BlackROCK?

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/einn/EINN2-Mar-14-2017-0230Z.mp3

[212man]

Any idea how deep the water is in the search area? around the rock it's in the 30-50m region

[Ber Nooly]

Any idea how deep the water is in the search area?

Here is the sea depth, in metres. From Vesselfinder.com

http://www.pprune.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1948&stc=1&d=1490021446

[[email protected]]

If the last AIS plot is West of the rock and the wreckage is East, it could be that the water entry was West and the flot gear kept the aircraft on the surface for long enough for it to drift round to the East before it finally sank.

[lowfat]

I wouldn't put to much into the AIS trace and final position of the aircraft .
Its a transponder system designed for track slow moving ships so its sample rate is not fast.
It is fitted to the sar machines to give the customer a track. Its based on ground stations generally so its relativly cheap to operate.
true track would be Blue sky or the like.

[atakacs]

Am I correct that the flight recorders have not been located yet?

[pfm1000]

Am I correct that the flight recorders have not been located yet?

Have been located but not recovered yet due to weather. Recovery expected to happen after weather improves tomorrow.

[smcc63]

Am I correct that the flight recorders have not been located yet?

Not located yet,,
Sea conditions still to rough to commit divers

[OttoRotate]

Am I correct that the flight recorders have not been located yet?
The beacon signal has been located, indicating roughly where the CVFDR is on the sea floor, but it has not been visually confirmed or physically retrieved yet.

[Red5ive]

Am I correct that the flight recorders have not been located yet?

Located but not recovered.

They did sonar scans on the area yesterday with smaller craft and will dive or send in ROV as soon as the weather permits.

Local vessels carried out detailed inspections of the undersea conditions using sonar scanning technology. They surveyed depth and access points as well as mapping obstacles to ensure that divers will have a considerable insight into the local geography when they begin their operations.
Taoiseach says families of Rescue 116 crew need answers (http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0320/860998-progress-in-search-for-116-crew/)

A signal from the black box was detected last Wednesday but heavy swells and bad weather have prevented sub-aqua teams carrying out exploratory dives.http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/improved-weather-enables-scans-of-helicopter-search-site-445683.html

The Coast Guard's Declan Geoghegan said that they have made significant progress.
"All the work that we set out to do in terms of the preparatory work for the launch and the main rescue mission has been completed," he said.
"It's just weather dependent now. At the moment the forecast doesn't look great - I'm mainly talking about swell in that area."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/latest-taoiseach-in-mayo-to-meet-volunteers-searching-r116-helicopter-crew-782209.html

[The SAR RC]

The article above is very enlightening but I believe it relates to the specifications of the 92 brought in for the contract straight from Sikorsky? Of note is the fact that it had EuroNav in the front which is being taken as indication that all the Irish CG S92s are the same.

Question - were the 4 aircraft that were transferred from the CHC UK Interim SAR contract also updated to have EuroNav? When they served the contract in the UK they were not fitted with EuroNav in the front so there may be a difference in aircraft modification states across the fleet. The lack of mapping in the front of 4 of the 5 aircraft might mean slightly different procedures are required depending upon which aircraft the crews are in.

The article also shows the Sikorsky derived S92 was based at Sligo whereas the Dublin aircraft was from the UK contract and therefore may not have had EuroNav mapping in the cockpit? Speculation based on what the crews may have done using a mapping system that no one is sure was actually fitted will not help, but knowing for sure what the actual fit was may be of more help?

Snake pit

That's a useful insight. I'd originally intimated that the Irish SAR S92 fleet only had a moving map display in the cabin but withdrew the post when the above article was posted and I felt that I'd put inaccurate information on the forum. Having aircraft with differing modification states would be nothing new to Irish SAR.

If there was only a moving map in the cabin then the cockpit crew would be semi - reliant upon the rearcrew to inform them of their position relative to Blacksod and Blackrock.

So can anyone provide clarity? Was there a moving map in the cockpit?

[juice]

RTÉ the national broadcaster has just reported the AAIU as stating that a significant amount of wreckage has been recovered, and that damage is consistent with tail section striking "rocky surfaces" on Blackrock.

Closing piece on Main TV news at 9.00pm. No link yet.

Edit: more emerging.

From Newstalk -

A "significant amount" of wreckage from the missing Rescue 116 helicopter has been recovered near Black Rock Light House, the AAIU confirmed.

In a statement this evening, the AAIU said a significant amount of wreckage has been recovered from the sea and this has been logged and will be brought to the AAIU wreckage facility in Gormanston, Co Meath, for detailed examination.

"Some helicopter wreckage has been recovered from the general area of Black Rock Light House," the statement reads. "This wreckage is primarily from the tail area of the helicopter. At this early stage in the investigation it is not possible to be definitive about the exact nature of damage to the recovered wreckage or indeed the circumstances of the accident.

"However, there appears to be marks on some of the recovered wreckage which are consistent with the tail of the aircraft contacting rocky surfaces on the Western end of Blackrock. The investigation has not yet definitively identified the initial point of impact."

In addition, the AAIU expressed that they were "anxious" to recover and examine as much wreckage as possible, and in particular to recover the combined voice and flight data recorder, or 'black box'.

Link http://http://www.newstalk.com/reader/47.301/95419/0/

[212man]

RTÉ the national broadcaster has just reported the AAIU as stating that a significant amount of wreckage has been recovered, and that damage is consistent with tail section striking "rocky surfaces" on Blackrock.

Closing piece on Main TV news at 9.00pm. No link yet.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0320/860998-progress-in-search-for-116-crew/

[Red5ive]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7ZE7OJWkAAMkAC.jpg

[AnglianAV8R]

Regarding the wreckage "recovered from the general area of Black Rock Light House" I'm wondering if the parts of the tail bearing signs of impact with rocks were recovered from the shoreline or from high ground near the lighthouse itself ?

[jimf671]

Would reports of the search being delayed by the sea conditions not tend to indicate that there is no seaborne or shoreline work at Black Rock and this was a landward discovery?

[212man]

Would reports of the search being delayed by the sea conditions not tend to indicate that there is no seaborne or shoreline work at Black Rock and this was a landward discovery?
No, they would not.

[Thunderbirdsix]

From Breaking News on the Irish Independent tonight


Investigation into downed Rescue 116 reveals marks 'consistent with aircraft hitting rocks' - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/investigation-into-downed-rescue-116-reveals-marks-consistent-with-aircraft-hitting-rocks-35549803.html)

[SASless]

Red5ive posted the official Press Release....which stated "Some Helicopter wreckage has been recovered from the general area of Blackrock Light House....".

They did not say.....in the general area of Blackrock but specified the Light House.

Even allowing for translating that into American Redneck Speak....that tells me the Investigators went ashore at Blackrock and in walking about the Light House area....found bits off the Aircraft.

Or....did I completely misunderstand the Press Release?

[212man]

No; that's already established over the weekend. They did, but define "close to the lighthouse" : it's a pretty small rock!

[minimaman]

So it looks like this confirms the theories of contact made with blackrock island from a westerly approach.The AIS data did put the aircraft just west of the island at 12.46am,heading east at 098 degrees towards the west side of the island but at a slow speed of 9kts. From the AAIU information it appears that the tail of the heli collided with the western rockface.Would this mean that the heli was turning away from the island at the last second and that the tail rotor struck the cliff as the crew attempted to save the situation?Maybe with the weather it wasnt possible to see the cliff face till the last second .It still seems strange that the EGPWS did not warn the crew earlier?This does look like a CFIT incident but only time and the fdr cvr will tell for sure.It still looks like they should not have been near blackrock at all.The flight track from dublin goes directly to this rock and not Blacksod. While some have mentioned it could have been used as an approach point this is looking increasingly unlikely given the helis low altitude 9nm out,the low speed of 9kts and the radiocall at 12.45 saying landing shortly at blacksod. It would be interesting to see how these 2 lighthouses appear as navaids in the fms and if the codes are similar.Or do the coordinates of these remote lighthouses have to be entered manually?It is worth looking at the flightpath again in light of the new AAIU information -see attached.This approach shape would have worked perfectly for sealevel blacksod. If one believed they were at sealevel low blacksod but were actually at blackrock it would be serious.At Blacksod you could fly east and low towards the lighthouse and let down 50m away from it without issue,using the same technique in blackrock could leave a collision unavoidable particularly with a low cloud base.However this scenario does seem difficult to believe with such a highly experienced and capable crew used to far more challenging operations out at sea and only the fdr and cvr will tell the full story.

1950
1951

[Mark Six]

Are Blackrock and Blacksod already in the pre-loaded waypoints in the FMS data base or
do they need to be loaded manually? If pre-loaded what are the respective designators?

Didn't get a response the first time I posted this. Might be relevant. Anyone?

[Ber Nooly]

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/843969168785506309

[going grey]

Any thoughts on how one crew member was recovered outside the helicopter and the expectation that three more crew members may remain inside the helicopter ?

[smcc63]

I know Captain Fitzpatrick had completed dunk test two weeks ago, so procedure was very familiar to her, what I am asking is why her personal locater did not alert rescue services to her location

[gulliBell]

Sure, as a thought. One crew member was successfully able to extricate themselves from the aircraft using taught escape techniques (whether the aircraft remained on the surface briefly, or whilst submerged). The others, through physical incapacity due to injury, or through misfortune being caught up in wreckage, regrettably were unable to do so.

Given reports that the tail was found on land, it would have been a very short and wildly disorientating ride in the dark from the point of impact to the flights conclusion with absolutely nothing a crew can do to recover the situation, short of shutting down the engines prior to impact. And I'd be surprised if there was time to even do that.

Regarding activation of the personal locator, as far as I know this requires manual activation. Injuries sustained during egress from submerged helicopter may have rendered the survivor unconscious (and this is exactly what happened to the Australian Army Blackhawk pilot that was killed in the HMAS Kanimbla accident off Fiji - by the time he arrived at the surface after deep water escape he was unconscious and subsequently died from salt water inspiration).

[OttoRotate]

Apologies if I'm breaching etiquette, but has anyone seen reports that indicate the pilot was responsive at the time of rescue? I only ask because a few military veteran coworkers' general response to the reports of "critical condition" was that this was SOP if SAR crews did not have someone licensed to pronounce at the point of rescue, and so the condition is not changed to "deceased" until reaching the hospital and the attention of full MDs. Is this generally correct?

I realise there is also a desire to keep some level of details away from the press out of respect for the families, but I ask because this might be a relevant detail distinguishing between an aircraft with enough left to go into the water under some control, allowing for egress; and a completely uncontrolled descent, where crew are ejected during impact.

[gulliBell]

If the tail rotor and presumably a chunk of tail cone was missing from the helicopter, which departed the scene suddenly and unexpectedly, at night, and at low level, I think it's a fair assumption that the helicopter was completely out of control from that point until it impacted the water. I don't think a cockpit crew would be ejected from an S92 during a crash sequence. To be released from the seat would require a conscious action from the crew member to unbuckle the seat harness. If they were ejected from the aircraft whilst still attached to the seat, I think the impact forces required to do that would not be survivable in any event, and if ejected whilst still attached to the seat they'd probably sink and not float to the surface.

[megan]

.However this scenario does seem difficult to believe with such a highly experienced and capable crew used to far more challenging operationsUnfortunately, you're only as good as your last flight. No matter your experience, you're human, and subject to all the foibles thereto. An oft quoted phrase is "There but for the grace of God". If people are honest with themselves they will admit to peering into that dark chasm, and having lady luck draw them back to salvation.

[gulliBell]

From somebody who teaches highly experienced and capable crews in their annual simulator re-currency checks, I can vouch for the fact they can sometimes make surprising simple mistakes that result in dire consequences. Fortunately the simulator has a reset button and no harm done. Real life operational flying is far less forgiving. Making mistakes is an inherent limitation of being human.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

On a 225/175, if the aircraft is in a landing configuration and approaching a suitably designated site (airfield, heliport etc), the EGPWS is inhibited as the system assumes that you are trying to land. I am unfamiliar with the S-92 but assume it is at least similar. Would Blackrock have been designated as a landing site? If so, might that explain why presumably the crew got no warning from it?

[helicrazi]

On a 225/175, if the aircraft is in a landing configuration and approaching a suitably designated site (airfield, heliport etc), the EGPWS is inhibited as the system assumes that you are trying to land. I am unfamiliar with the S-92 but assume it is at least similar. Would Blackrock have been designated as a landing site? If so, might that explain why presumably the crew got no warning from it?

The alerts are inhibited, but surely on such an approach the TAWS screen is still being displayed?

I'm not sure if this has been covered,

Consider that the 'landing Blacksod' was a mistake in the call by whoever made it, and the intention was to always land at Blackrock, although I think someone has pointed out there is no fuel there,

On approach, less than 9kts at committal, maybe prior to as power comes in, TRPCS rears its ugly head again? We all know what happens next?

[helicrazi]

Some pictures of the Helipad at Blackrock.

Where has the 9kts come from? Surely this would indicate it was coming in very close to the Helipad for landing?

Wondering why the tail would strike the rock first and not the cabin? Discovering the aircraft was too low, pulling up and the tail clipping the edge sending it into a spin?

We have another Tail related incident then, be that from collision or component failure, it's still unclear. I'd hope that this wasn't anything to do with the bearing.


Seems we could be thinking along the same lines,

The 9kts was on an AIS trace a few pages back, posted with a picture.

[212man]

To be released from the seat would require a conscious action from the crew member to unbuckle the seat harness. If they were ejected from the aircraft whilst still attached to the seat, I think the impact forces required to do that would not be survivable in any event, and if ejected whilst still attached to the seat they'd probably sink and not float to the surface

I don't think that's completely true - think of the two survivors off the BAH BV234. They had no idea how they arrived on the surface.

Apologies if I'm breaching etiquette, but has anyone seen reports that indicate the pilot was responsive at the time of rescue? I only ask because a few military veteran coworkers' general response to the reports of "critical condition" was that this was SOP if SAR crews did not have someone licensed to pronounce at the point of rescue, and so the condition is not changed to "deceased" until reaching the hospital and the attention of full MDs. Is this generally correct?


I suspect you are correct as I was quite surprised to see the initial news briefings saying so openly that "things weren't hopeful".

[gulliBell]

The BV234 survivors may well have instinctively released their own seat belts, and following the stress of the moment, completely forgotten about it when they arrived on the surface. I'd be very surprised if an S92 pilot could get free of their seat, even in a very violent arrival, without manually releasing their seat harness.

[Loquatious]

What the crew’s plan was will become apparent soon enough and hopefully the missing will soon be returned.

Without altitude information it is not possible to conclude whether this was an approach to Blackrock or not.

A change of plan due to developing a tail rotor control issue after the turn inbound to Blackrock is unlikely. The procedures for this would suggest that it be better taken to a runway.

All in the 92 world would have been aware of the recent issues regarding the tail rotor. Low pitch or high pitch situations would be a challenge at 80 knots, low altitude, partial IMC at night but any tail control anomalies once encountered would likely not be misidentified as recently happened.

I lack SAR insight but I would expect such letdowns to start from the overhead. The profile flown inbound Blackrock is more like an ARA, albeit with something like a go around followed by an arcing turn. A SAR mode/procedure or simply gradual commanded heading change? I would go with this profile for an approach to Blackrock low level but am unable to see why is would be the profile of choice if they thought as the radio call implies they were at Blacksod. There is certainly scope for a mix up given the similarity of name and basic elements .i.e Lighthouse and landing site.

If deprived of EGPWS active warnings due to approach speed, a crew finding terrain in very close proximity would have been poorly placed to go around as from the photos, Blackrock presents a crescent shape to the west.

If the tail came into significant contact with part of the terrain during avoiding action, the fuselage would have made heavy contact with the rock strewn surface of the sea. Such hard contact could be borne out by the recovery of a fuel tank sponson which are designed to detach at high G loading commensurate wth impact.

As we know, aviation is unforgiving and can be very cruel but a tail rotor problem and a navigation error would, for me, be a scenario too far.

[BookwormPete]

It seems a weather window has been identified at 05.00 tomorrow (Wednesday):

Speaking to Independent.ie, Irish Coast Guard officer Declan Geoghegan said that favourable weather conditions had been identified at 5am on Wednesday morning and that plans were being put in place to commence operations shortly thereafter.
"A window has been identified at 5am in the morning, where weather conditions are hoped to improve and swells will have gone down. More surveying will be carried out today to gather extra information, which will then be brought onto the Graunaile," Mr Geoghegan said.

"Everything will be put in place and if the weather remains favourable we will be ready to go at 6am tomorrow morning," he added.

[rrekn]

The recovery of the detached sponson isn't that telling, as the sponsons are designed to shear, seal and break away during an impact.

The far more telling item is the recovery of the largely intact internal aux fuel tank, and the SAR door with the door track still attached.

[catch21]

I don't think their intention was to land at Black Rock for the following reason. The radio message "Landing Blacksod" would have been noticed by another crew member, pointed out, and corrected.

[helicrazi]

I don't think their intention was to land at Black Rock for the following reason. The radio message "Landing Blacksod" would have been noticed by another crew member, pointed out, and corrected.

Not in high workload with things going wrong. Capacity is very much reduced.

[albatross]

The recovery of the detached sponson isn't that telling, as the sponsons are designed to shear, seal and break away during an impact.

The far more telling item is the recovery of the largely intact internal aux fuel tank, and the SAR door with the door track still attached.

Where did you get a list of the recovered items?
Did I miss some post?
Thanks.

[pfm1000]

I don't think their intention was to land at Black Rock for the following reason. The radio message "Landing Blacksod" would have been noticed by another crew member, pointed out, and corrected.

Plus it makes no sense they would land at Blackrock. It's uninhabited and there's no fuel. the lighthouse is solar powered.

There's a contract in place between Irish lights who operate the lighthouses and the coast guard to provide helipad and refuelling services on the western seaboard at the manned lighthouses at Blacksod and Castletownbere. i.e. they would not choose Blackrock.


Edit: Annex 12A of this document includes a site plan for Blacksod helipad. http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/ircg-liaison-agreements-and-mous/2010-03-22-service-level-agreement-ircg-and-cil-2010-signed.pdf

[smcc63]

From Accident investigation of Sykorsky S92 near Newfoundland 2009, PLB specific:::
The PLB design is such that over-tightening of the antenna could, with very little resistance, cause the antenna connector to turn. If tightening is continued, the wires running from the connector will eventually break. Three of the PLBs recovered following the occurrence and examined by the TSB had loose antenna connectors, which would have prevented them from being watertight. Two of those three PLBs had twisted wires, one of which had the wires twisted until they broke. The broken wires would have made this PLB incapable of transmitting a signal. The third PLB antenna connector, which was recovered from the survivor, was likely damaged prior to the occurrence.
The manufacturer’s website states that the beacon is protected against the effects of immersion in water to depth between 15 cm and 1 metre. All of the recovered PLBs had contamination due to salt water ingression. The PLBs are electronic components and must be sealed from moisture to ensure correct operation. Since none of the search and rescue aircraft that responded to the occurrence received a transmission on 121.5MHz, it is likely that sea water quickly penetrated the PLBs, rendering them inoperable.
The flight crew were equipped with ACR AEROFIX 406 PLBs (part number 11-07709), which are small lightweight devices that were carried in their immersion suit leg pocket covered by the pocket flap. These PLBs transmit a 406 MHz signal that is detected by the COSPAS-SARSAT satellite system, and includes a registered unique, digitally coded distress signal. The 406 MHz beacons also transmit on 121.5 MHz to allow for traditional homing by SAR resources. The flight crew’s PLBs were not recovered by the TSB

[FlyingHead]

It is a very sad story. Experiences and well known crew who were appreciated by all their peers. My sympathies to their collegues anf families.

Many of you are asking why they did an approach to BlackRock when in fact they wanted to take fuel at BlackSod. I think because of the weather, the ceiling was to low to do any kind of approach at Blacksod, therefore the crew elected to do an approach similar to a NDB ARA at BlackRock, and then proceed VFR/NVG to Blacksod. The reason they didn't do the similar approach at Blacksod is normally a NDB ARA have to be at a certain distance from shore to comply with obstacles clearance (between 10 n.m. and 14n.m.). For me it show that way the crew knew exactly what they were doing.

My two cents.
FH

[Redhawk 83]

As a former SAR pilot and RCC worker I was wondering if anyone can help with these questions regarding the survival vests worn by Irish CG crew:

What type survival beacon(s)/radios are carried in the vests?

I thought I saw on one posting that their survival beacon is a manual activation type; is that correct? Or is it an automatic type that activates upon immersion?

Is the inflatable part of the vest equipped with an AIS Man Overboard type beacon that activates upon inflation?

Replies to the thread ok with me or you can send it privately to me.

My condolences to all; especially to the families.

[GJOYT]

Hi Flying Head,

How come they never flew near BlackSOD though if this was the case?

Looking at AIS data there were about 5nm south of BlackSOD on track to BlackROCK. At no point on ATC or Coast Guard frequency did they say that they were approaching BlackROCK to get visual. 2 minutes before the crash as they commenced the 180 degrees turn the said that they were approaching BlackSOD. This indicates to me that the crew may have thought that they were approaching BlackSOD instead.

Just my interpretation of the evidence so far and I'm sure I could be far from the truth.

[[email protected]]

Flying Head - it maybe that they were using a legacy procedure that pre-dated the S-92, something that they used to do in that area in the S-61.

The S-92 is far more capable and could have easily conducted a letdown without routing via Blackrock but maybe it was just what they were used to doing.

I start to wonder if the AIS track West of Blackrock is just an anomaly and that they never went that far away from the rock before water impact - if there really was that much damage to the aircraft after hitting the rock then it would seem to have to render it unflyable.

As for the survival aspects, it is certainly possible to release your harness and egress the aircraft yet drown on the way to the surface - I don't know if Dara's lifejacket was inflated or not.

[Thunderbirdsix]

I was just wondering could the Coastguard Controllers at Malin Head or Valentia who may be looking at Rescue 116 on their live AIS screens have contacted them on Marine Frequency and asked them why they were at Blackrock and not Blacksod or would they not get involved when they are going to land

[Nubian]

If the report about the radio call ''landing in Blacksod'' is correct, why would they do so as far out as about 10 NM from destination?

[FlyingHead]

Hi GJOYT, if you know the weather is to low at Blacksod, why fly over, or like CRAB said maybe a pre dated procedure have been used. I think at this stage all theory are valid to a certain point. I hope the CVR/FDR will answer most of the questions!

Cheers
FH

[Flapwing]

I heard that Dara's life jacket was inflated and helmet was not on.... upon recovery...

[catch21]

If the cloud base is 200-300 feet how can you explain using Black Rock at 275 odd feet for routing in towards Blacksod at 40 odd feet?

[electrotor]

AAIU Statement.

AAIU Statement: AAIU Investigation into the loss of R116 | AAIU.ie (http://www.aaiu.ie/node/1055)

[FlyingHead]

Hi catch21, I thought the ceiling was a little bit higher.

[Ber Nooly]

Hi catch21, I thought the ceiling was a little bit higher.

Belmullet (30 km to the northeast, 9 m amsl) was Overcast at 300 ft. Mace Head, 80 km to the southeast of Blackrock, was Overcast 400 ft but down to 200 ft 1 hour later.

[oleary]

If the cloud base is 200-300 feet how can you explain using Black Rock at 275 odd feet for routing in towards Blacksod at 40 odd feet?

How would they know exactly what the ceiling was at Blackrock, there is no weather reporting at that site.

[Red5ive]

Last couple of hours Granuaile has been operating close to Blackrock. Hope they launched ROV, some divers, or better.

Wind is currently 10kn was 30.

[rotorspeed]

Seems we are presuming that there is no weather reporting at Blacksod - when I asked this some time ago no-one responded. Given that this is one of the few refuelling points on the north west coast and the presumably frequent poor weather, this is surely a major omission, the modest cost of which must be justified in the future. Furthermore, does anyone know if there was any ground to air RT at Blacksod? It's hard to believe a simple hand held receiver was not in use, but there again I have seen no reports of comms here.

And then we come to the critical issue of navigation. Given that there is a significant chance that this aircraft was not where its crew thought it was, I am astonished to gather from some posts that there is a possibility this S92 did not have a moving map display in the cockpit? Is this really the case? It seems incredible if so that a $20m aircraft can have less such kit than most single engined VFR helis. And such an omission may well be a major contributory factor in this accident.

[Thunderbirdsix]

There is weather reporting at Blacksod and the comms are marine VHF, I have heard other Helicopters going in for fuel at other times asking for the latest weather and visibility as they are coming in,there is also a remotely operated Coastguard Station at nearby Belmullet operated by Malin Head Coastguard Station

[Marama]

Blacksod has an automatic weather station 10 miles from the lighthouse. It used to be at the lighthouse and it was the Blacksod Lighthouse forecast that they relied on to give the Go-ahead for the D-Day landings.

[rotorspeed]

Ok good, so does anyone have any idea what the reported vis and cloudbase was at Blacksod around the time of the accident?

[Red5ive]

There is weather reporting at Blacksod and the comms are marine VHF, I have heard other Helicopters going in for fuel at other times asking for the latest weather and visibility as they are coming in,there is also a remotely operated Coastguard Station at nearby Belmullet operated by Malin Head Coastguard Station

Belmullet Automatic is listed here
Coastal Reports - Met Éireann - The Irish Meteorological Service Online (http://met.ie/forecasts/coastal.asp)

[Thunderbirdsix]

Ok good, so does anyone have any idea what the reported vis and cloudbase was at Blacksod around the time of the accident?

Someone posted a while back that the cloud base on the night was 300 feet don't have any other info

[Red5ive]

Ok good, so does anyone have any idea what the reported vis and cloudbase was at Blacksod around the time of the accident?

You can select BELMULLET (A) and date on the menu on the right. It just a basic report
Daily Data - Climate - Met Éireann - The Irish Meteorological Service Online (http://met.ie/climate/daily-data.asp)

[mr velo]

Both Granuaile and LE Eithne on the way back in from Black Rock area now and returning to Blacksod Bay. Hopefully weather remains ok for search tomorrow morning.

[FlightSpanner]

And then we come to the critical issue of navigation. Given that there is a significant chance that this aircraft was not where its crew thought it was, I am astonished to gather from some posts that there is a possibility this S92 did not have a moving map display in the cockpit? Is this really the case? It seems incredible if so that a $20m aircraft can have less such kit than most single engined VFR helis. And such an omission may well be a major contributory factor in this accident.

Not as standard they don't, it's a cost option, no knowledge if the SAR 92's have them or not.

As for not being where they thought it was I find it hard to think they mistook the lighthouse for Blacksod, aircraft heading would mean they were aproaching Blacksod from the wrong direction and put them over land?

[Ber Nooly]

Someone posted a while back that the cloud base on the night was 300 feet don't have any other info

This is the 1 am synop report for Belmullet station (9 m amsl), 14 km north of Blacksod, 27 km northeast of Blackrock.

AAXX 14011 03976 47130 /2210 10106 20099 30242 40254 55003 7818/ 88///
333 88/03==

Visibility 3 km, Wind 220 @ 10 m/s (19 knots), Temp 10.6 °C, Dewpoint 9.9 °C, Sea-level pressure 1025.4 hPa, Stable, rain shower, Overcast at 300 ft.

I've made up this chart showing Belmullet and Mace Head obs. Cloudbase had lowered to 200 ft at Mace Head at 2 am.

http://www.pprune.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1967&stc=1&d=1490140755

[swashplate92]

Hi everyone.
Been reading through all the posts on here. Very sad and tragic. Regarding Rescue 116's positioning, the following may be of interest to you all. Seems to be the very last ATC conversations between Rescue 116 and Shannon (SNN)
[/URL]
[URL="http://archive-server.liveatc.net/einn/EINN-High-Mar-14-2017-0000Z.mp3"]EINN-High-Mar-14-2017-0000Z.mp3 (http://archive-server.liveatc.net/einn/EINN-High-Mar-14-2017-0000Z.mp3)

[Outwest]

The pertinent part of that recording starts at 19:30

[Vibetribe]

Shannon ATC have noted that R116 are continuing to head out to sea and have asked the question, Where are you going?
Very sad to listen to the long radio silence after that. RIP

[rotorspeed]

But what is most pertinent is that 116 told Shannon that its intention was to refuel at Blacksod.....

[smcc63]

Is it known what type of PLB the crew were issued with and any reason why the PLB did not assist in the early location of Captain Fitzpatrick"s position post accident,,, thank you

[Ber Nooly]

Their intentions are unclear in that clip.

Asked if they are going direct to the ship, they say...

"Our intentions are not to go as far as the ship but it is a possibility, it is a possibility"

I cannot understand the next sentence, it's a little unclearer,

We are having problems getting there or we will have problems getting there for rescue so our intention is to stop at blacksod for a refuel and then we will figure it out from there.

To me, they are indecisive, there is no clear plan on what they are doing. Stopping at blacksod for more fuel (rather than low on fuel) to figure out what they would do next.

As they were indecisive on their actual plan, they could easily have elected to land on blackrock rather than blacksod to give them time to figure out what to do next. It is a possibility, it is a possibility suggests to me that their plan for blacksod was on their mind but not a certainty.

I don't think we can draw any conclusions from that 30secs audio, it's indecisive.

.

They said they were finding it hard getting "two-way" (comms) with R118. Nothing about not being sure about making it to the ship. Their plan was definite to land at Blacksod. From there they would then see what to do.

[fisbangwollop]

With my trained Air traffikers ears ( I talk to these guys on a daily basis) they definately say their intention is to refuel at Blacksod.
I am guessing that most of the navigation is done by the crew in the back of the cab using all the bells and whistles available to them. And I understand that is some pretty good kit with a map display going down to Ordnance Survey quality. So why end up at Black rock when they think they are going to Blacksod?
I am certain all will be clear once the contents of the CVR are revealed.

[agirl]

They said they were finding it hard getting "two-way" (comms) with R118. Nothing about not being sure about making it to the ship. Their plan was definite to land at Blacksod. From there they would then see what to do.

What they said was:

"We are having problems getting two-way with Rescue 118 at the moment so our intentions are to land ON Blacksod, refuel and we'll figure it out from there I suppose."

I think using the word "ON" instead of "AT" could indicate they may have been aware they were landing on an island (rock in this case) and not at a landing area on the mainland?

[Ber Nooly]

Okay thanks for clarification on the "two way" that's the part that was unclear to me.

A definite land at Blacksod? Sorry, I don't agree there.

It says their intentions were to land at blacksod for a refuel, not that they were definitely landing at Blacksod for a refuel. In addition to that, explain the "our intentions are not to go as far as the ship, but it is a possibility, it is a possibility"

The word intention is used twice, and in the first instance with a But.

I don't agree that this soundclip is conclusive proof personally, why use the words, but it is a possibility, it is a possibility.

The CVFDR will obviously be crucial here.

What? ATC asks them what their intentions are and they say "we're landing at Blacksod for fuel". That means they're going to land at Blacksod for fuel. The word "Definite" is not required in ATC.

You're getting caught up in semantics. I don't see any confusion in their intentions, and obviously neither did the controller.

[gulliBell]

I've landed on occasion to conjur up a plan when faced with a tricky situation that required a bit of thought, much easier to do the conjuring when sitting safely on the ground. However when I see the daylight photo of that helipad on Blackrock, surrounded by cold water, at night and in bad weather, there is no way I'd contemplate landing on that in those conditions for that reason. It just doesn't make sense to me as an alternative compared with the other option. Which is why I suspect they thought they were somewhere other than where they actually were, for whatever set of reasons. The under the weather transit reason from where they were to where they wanted to go does make operational sense, except when you look at it from the angle that they actually hit the rock. So by implication, the fact that the rock was there came as a surprise to them. Of course a serious malfunction at a critical point might explain why they hit a rock that they knew was there.

[GJOYT]

Don't forget that 2 minutes before the crash as they turned towards BlackROCK, they transmitted on the Coastguard frequency that they were approaching BlackSOD.....

[norunway]

Your just trolling now, you are obviously not a professional pilot, so what qualifies you to make such outlandish claims.

Any one that has flown, or still fly's on a SAR flight knows the professionalism that such crews fly with, and to say that they misidentified Blackrock as Blacksod is just rediculous.

If you know what the low level approach to Blacksod looks like, you wouldn't be making such comments.

No once have you asked have the missing crew been recovered yet? Instead it looks as if you are only interested in questioning their descision making on a 30 second ATC clip.

[GJOYT]

Professionals make mistakes too!

Were you in the helicopter when the accident happened?? No.. So anything is possible until they get more evidence from more wreckage and the black box.

The arrogance of some people on this...

[Same again]

Anyone who has ever launched for a SAR flight with a rescue callsign will know that apart from a basic intent there is no plan as there is seldom time to make one. The plan evolves as the flight progresses and is constantly changed as more information becomes available.

Everything is a 'possibility' Mitchaa until it becomes an impossibility.

[catch21]

Your just trolling now, you are obviously not a professional pilot, so what qualifies you to make such outlandish claims.

Any one that has flown, or still fly's on a SAR flight knows the professionalism that such crews fly with, and to say that they misidentified Blackrock as Blacksod is just rediculous.

If you know what the low level approach to Blacksod looks like, you wouldn't be making such comments.

I think we need to keep an open mind. In the Glasgow thread there were some very, very loud voices in the room proclaiming "no way in the world could this helicopter be run to fuel exhaustion".

[heliski22]

Apart from the RT references to Blacksod, the information I have is that the helipad at Blackrock is 9m. It was built around the Bo105 which served the lighthouses for many years and, I understand, is just about acceptable for an EC135. I think we can be satisfied that nobody was planning to land an S92 there.


Establishing what they were doing in such close proximity to it and what brought about their ultimate, and increasingly apparent contact with it will have to wait just a little longer until crews recover the data recorder.


In the meantime, for the sake of the families and those close to them who are most seriously affected, we must hope that the missing crew members can be found sooner rather than later in what remains an extremely challenging environment for the services involved.

[Ber Nooly]

So explain the words "but it's a possibility, it's a possibility" - There's nothing definite about that statement to me.

In the case of an accident, it's imperative that you get caught up in semantics. Everything needs to be crystal clear and to my ears with the words, but, possibility and intentions, those words are far from clear.

Just my opinion and perhaps wide off the mark but it's open to interpretation.

Some posters are suggesting the crew didn't have a clue where they were and they didn't know they were anywhere near a 300ft rock, I find that extremely hard to believe hence why I am having trouble with the ATC transcript.

The words "It's a possibility" were referring to whether they needed to go out to the boat. They were not used in reference to landing at/on Blacksod helipad.

As pointed out, they need to play it by ear to some extent as things evolve. The lack of contact with R118 was obviously causing them to consider their options. Land the chopper, refuel it and make a plan of action.

[Red5ive]

Anyone worked out how long R118 was out of range of Shannon ATC and R116?

Accident investigators say they have not yet found any marks suggesting an impact between the helicopter and the island or its buildings. So how did the main wreckage and the tail parts come to be so far apart?https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/discovery-of-helicopter-tail-wreckage-adds-to-questions-around-crash-1.3019244

Attempts had been made last night to use the Marine Institute’s ROV Holland 1 in 40m of water off the island’s south-east corner where the signal from the helicopter’s black box was first detected a week ago .https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rescue-116-granuaile-to-deploy-remotely-operated-vehicle-1.3019947

The Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) was launched shortly after 9am this morning from the Marine Institute vessel, the Granuaile.

It is the second time search teams have managed to deploy the high-tech device.
Underwater robot deployed in latest attempt to search for Rescue 116 and missing crewmen - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/underwater-robot-deployed-in-latest-attempt-to-search-for-rescue-116-and-missing-crewmen-35554720.html)

A local fisherman in Blacksod Bay this morning said the weather has started to deteriorate after a good spell overnight.
Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Eamon Dixon said it will probably be Friday before the sea is moderately calm again.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0322/861598-mayo-helicopter-crash/

[Search&Rescue]

Your just trolling now, you are obviously not a professional pilot, so what qualifies you to make such outlandish claims.

Any one that has flown, or still fly's on a SAR flight knows the professionalism that such crews fly with, and to say that they misidentified Blackrock as Blacksod is just rediculous.

If you know what the low level approach to Blacksod looks like, you wouldn't be making such comments.

No once have you asked have the missing crew been recovered yet? Instead it looks as if you are only interested in questioning their descision making on a 30 second ATC clip.

Norunway

Unfortunately, the SAR Crews can also make mistakes like other aviators... We are only Humans...

[mr velo]

Helicopter wreckage located off Black Rock.

[Mech1111]

Main wreckage located now by ROV.

[Mech1111]

https://twitter.com/patmcgrath/status/844530495941738497

[Duchess_Driver]

As a professional pilot, my bosses favourite saying is

NO plan ever survives contact with the enemy...

So I can well understand that whatever the plan was when 116 left on its fateful journey it would be as loose and fluid as possible to allow for all sorts of possibilities.

Certainly, from my POV, the uncertainty is about whether they were heading out to the ship or not, not whether they were putting down for more fuel.

[Red5ive]

The wreckage of Coast Guard helicopter Rescue 116 has been located off the Mayo coast.https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0322/861598-mayo-helicopter-crash/ (https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0322/861598-mayo-helicopter-crash/Few)

RTE report
https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/844537634139467776

Few details on what was found, but current forecast is for a two or three day weather window starting Friday.

[Thunderbirdsix]

Irish Naval Vessel "LE Eithne" heading to the area where wreckage has been found with family members of the missing crew on board

[HandLuggage]

For those commenting on the ATC 0000Z recording posted above, note that there was one further call with R116 made on the next tape (from 0030Z) which you can get here (http://archive-server.liveatc.net/einn/EINN-High-Mar-14-2017-0030Z.mp3). Skip to about 4:30 in the recording.

"Shannon, Rescue 116"

"Rescue 116, Shannon go"

"Passing 4000 feet now in the descent making our way to Blacksod for refuel, Rescue 116"

"Copy ... <inaudible>"

[jimf671]

I've landed on occasion to conjur up a plan when faced with a tricky situation that required a bit of thought, much easier to do the conjuring when sitting safely on the ground. However when I see the daylight photo of that helipad on Blackrock, surrounded by cold water, at night and in bad weather, there is no way I'd contemplate landing on that in those conditions for that reason. It just doesn't make sense to me as an alternative compared with the other option. Which is why I suspect they thought they were somewhere other than where they actually were, for whatever set of reasons. The under the weather transit reason from where they were to where they wanted to go does make operational sense, except when you look at it from the angle that they actually hit the rock. So by implication, the fact that the rock was there came as a surprise to them. Of course a serious malfunction at a critical point might explain why they hit a rock that they knew was there.


What he said.

And no point in micro-analysing the call. It's not a scheduled airline flight with hours of planning. It's a SAR flight with a wide range of possibilities.

[Red5ive]

Jurgen Whyte of the Air Accident Investigation Unit said it was the "absolute hope" that the crew are with the wreckage.
"It's hugely positive, we could hear the beacon, we were homing in on the beacon and the proof in the pie is we have located the main part of the wreckage which is the helicopter itself.

"We have the wreckage so it's just a matter of getting the weather window to get the ROV down, work our way through t
'Hugely significant' discovery as underwater robot locates Rescue 116 wreckage - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hugely-significant-discovery-as-underwater-robot-locates-rescue-116-wreckage-35555312.html)

[ODEN]

For me its not far away at all that Blackrock and Blacksod can easily be mixed up.
Can you imagine the reference to the helipads in the FMS....BLARO and BLASO for example...

Dont know the CHC SOP for entering waypoints in the FMS but misstakes of putting wrong waypoint in the box can turn out very bad...like in the Cali accident.

If they had no Moving map either then its very easy to loose your situation awareness.
If that is the case and if they did not have NVD I would really question the operator to put the crews in such difficult situations with not enough resorces.

[Red5ive]

If they had no Moving map either then its very easy to loose your situation awareness.

If that is the case and if they did not have NVD I would really question the operator to put the crews in such difficult situations with not enough resorces.

Could the recent bankruptcy restructuring process have had an effect on resources available?
CHC Group Plan of Reorganization Confirmed by Court | CHC (http://www.chcheli.com/node/69)

[jimf671]

https://flyinginireland.com/2016/05/chc-group-files-voluntary-chapter-11-chc-ireland-ltd-not-impacted-by-the-move/

[Apate]

Could the recent bankruptcy restructuring process have had an effect on resources available?
CHC Group Plan of Reorganization Confirmed by Court | CHC (http://www.chcheli.com/node/69)

No. The funds for the transition to NVD are provided by the Irish Coastguard. The reasons for delay are no doubt many and varied, but Chapter 11 isn't one of them.

[tistisnot]

CHC outside of N Sea (not known by me) would have been, before flight - 1. check fms approved database in date (if not, manually enter required locations from published source) 2. check user waypoint database in particular for destination / alternate which is mobile (normally marked with 'X' as first input) against latest customer / rig status sheet and read and crosscheck challenge and response Lat / Long. 3. Confirm correct waypoint routeing. A fixed HLS / platform location in the user database may not necessarily have been checked ........

En route, each leg track and distance should be checked against ops flight plan.

[The SAR RC]

If they had no Moving map either then its very easy to loose your situation awareness.
If that is the case and if they did not have NVD I would really question the operator to put the crews in such difficult situations with not enough resorces.

Er, they did have a radar you know. And, we believe, a moving map in the cabin.

[Apate]

CHC outside of N Sea (not known by me)

Obviously! The Irish coastline is not the N Sea :E

[smcc63]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/live-map-captures-flight-path-of-coast-guard-helicopter-1.3009956?mode=amp

Notice air speed at Blackrock,

[malabo]

Crew was trained, experienced and qualified. Aircraft was equipped for the task. I don't buy the "there but for the grace of god, everyone messes up sometime, etc" arguments. Operations procedures are meant to be boilerplate, to tolerate the "human errors" that can creep in. "It's 1am and we're all a little tired, lets double check all the FMS entries and get all the gear front and back working for us" - it is called threat and error management. I don't doubt that all other civilian SAR operations have had to stand in front of their CEO's and assure them that this would not have happened in their organization. The "system", from the IAA on down, simply cannot tolerate any kind of unaddressed risk. The "swiss cheese" model is an explanation of operations management failure to address all risk, and falls under the responsibility of the company SMS system and S&Q that is charged with auditing effectiveness of the current and anticipating the worst in the future.

To land at Blacksod on that night you had to get under the weather. If that was the plan at the outset then they could have dropped out just west of Fahy Lough, nice 10x2nm corridor. From the radio transmissions it sounds more uncertain, they may have gone out a ways to try contact 118 before deciding to come back for a refuel. Pprune will know soon enough, some may know already.

Us Canadians can't seem to fly without a map Garmin on the panel, but the 92 had lots of mapping capability. Rear crew with their detailed maps showing own position and communicating to the front. EGPWS will paint shorelines and obstacles, so will radar, RadAlts plus GPS altitude if required, user waypoints can be defined as airports and will show up on the flightplan screen (almost Garmin-like), and finally the iPads with any number of apps that map. JeppFD strangely enough shows Blackrock but with an elevation of only 46' - anybody else confirm?

[Red5ive]

Prayers and reflection as Rescue 116 wreckage located

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/prayers-and-reflection-as-rescue-116-wreckage-located-1.3020811

[mini]

I've been lurking here from a distance, I've old ties with this outfit.

My take is they had problems and were trying to ground at Blackrock.

Nothing else makes sense.

[gulliBell]

The considerable effort required to launch the SAR effort in this instance for a fisherman at sea with a non-life threatening thumb injury is difficult for me to comprehend also.

[ryanair wannabe]

For those commenting on the ATC 0000Z recording posted above, note that there was one further call with R116 made on the next tape (from 0030Z) which you can get here (http://archive-server.liveatc.net/einn/EINN-High-Mar-14-2017-0030Z.mp3). Skip to about 4:30 in the recording.

"Shannon, Rescue 116"

"Rescue 116, Shannon go"

"Passing 4000 feet now in the descent making our way to Blacksod for refuel, Rescue 116"

"Copy ... <inaudible>"

Sounded like "you can report airborne again"

[ODEN]

Er, they did have a radar you know. And, we believe, a moving map in the cabin.

Eh..I know. That is the last defence and if that was working and used correctly (GMAP tilt down, gain etc) then they should have known they where approaching land...but there is a significant height difference between Blackrock and Blacksod....and that you dont see on the radar...but the EGPWS might give you a hint...but maybe not enough if you think you are somewhere else...

Anyway, we will find out soon enough what went wrong.
SAR is challanging and the margins are sometimes very small and I hope crews all over the world get all the training and resources they need to do a safe and good job as possible.

[tistisnot]

Obviously! The Irish coastline is not the N Sea :E Fair point. I did not want to include Canadians nor SE Asians with Northern Hemisphere. Dare we settle for Remainer's "European Waters"?!

[industry insider]

My take is they had problems and were trying to ground at Blackrock.

But they didn't tell anyone, in fact they said Blacksod. Even if they had a problem, Blackrock would not be a good place to go.

[gulliBell]

...and if they had an immediate dire and urgent problem with an intent of a forced landing on Blackrock, with 4 crew who would all have access to the outside world on the radio, you'd think one of them wouldn't be able to get a RT call out.

[megan]

Operations procedures are meant to be boilerplate, to tolerate the "human errors" that can creep inSo why then do we have accidents?

[JimJim10]

...and if they had an immediate dire and urgent problem with an intent of a forced landing on Blackrock, with 4 crew who would all have access to the outside world on the radio, you'd think one of them wouldn't be able to get a RT call out.

I think all of this will be answered with the recorders. There are very many possibilities, from a "simple" human error cfit, to a loss of tail rotor and fast yawning situation for a number of seconds before impact, restricting rear crew abilities to transmit a radio call-especially if they were unrestrained at the time. Also the large rock and low (decreasing) altitude, a rear crew transmission on fm (antenna on bottom of fuselage?) may not have been picked up if there was only one attempt. Recorders will (hopefully)show what happened in detail.

[rotorspeed]

R116 was tracking directly to Blackrock for the last 100nm after it left Dublin, and indeed passed by Blacksod about 4nm south, still maintaining a direct track to Blackrock, then went close by Blackrock and then turned back and approached it again. It is clear R116 was consistently aiming for what we know was Blackrock.

This does not therefore look like a late change of plan to land at Blackrock following some kind of emergency.

The question is why was the acft aiming for Blackrock. One reason is that they were deliberately using it as an approach point to get visual for a VFR transit to Blacksod. But this makes little sense - why go 10nm further to let down right over a 300ft rock rather than let down over the sea just south of your prob max 100ft elevation Blacksod destination, also having a lighthouse? A second reason could be that they deliberately intended to land at Blackrock and take stock. This makes no sense either - why would you opt for a hazardous uninhabited rock with a probably too small helipad and no fuel? And anyway, you have just told Shannon you are landing at Blacksod.

The third reason is of course that they thought they were actually going to Blacksod the whole time, hence the direct track, call to Shannon, second approach, and descent to a height that would have been fine for Blacksod. But then the huge mystery is how could such a fundamental navigation error have been made, and continue to be made, by a clearly very experienced crew? FMS mis-programming would be the obvious answer for the initial mistake - and indeed Blackrock and Blacksod are, and sound, very similar. And if you actually lived in a place called Blackrock, that name would be much more familiar, particularly late at night when you're tired and rushing...... But even if this happened it is still hard to see how such an experienced crew in presumably such a well equipped modern acft with moving maps visible to both crew and cabin would not have picked up this error in good time.

[gulliBell]

Regarding reason 3...fundamental navigation error...I'm no expert in the human factors area, but I've got a hunch that a highly experienced crew is equally prone to making a data input error, and not noticing it, as a novice crew. I don't think experience is any protection against data input errors, and what follows thereafter, simply because that is the way humans are built. We have become accustomed to the computer being infallible and lulling us into a false sense of security against our own fallibility.

[helicrazi]

Regarding reason 3...fundamental navigation error...I'm no expert in the human factors area, but I've got a hunch that a highly experienced crew is equally prone to making a data input error, and not noticing it, as a novice crew. I don't think experience is any protection against data input errors, and what follows thereafter, simply because that is the way humans are built. We have become accustomed to the computer being infallible and lulling us into a false sense of security against our own fallibility.


But if it was a data entry error, in their minds they were still heading to Blacksod and their mental picture would have been the approach to blacksod, then the approach they flew would have made no sense? heading to the north abeam overland to approach again over land? Surely it would have been a let down and a run in over the sea without an overfly? especially to such a low landing site? heading off overland first to approach backsod makes little sense to me in poor weather

[sunnywa]

Did the S92 in question have systems to automatically deploy both the floats and ELT in the advert of entering the water? My apoligies if this has been asked previously.

[smcc63]

Did the S92 in question have systems to automatically deploy both the floats and ELT in the advert of entering the water? My apoligies if this has been asked previously.

It had flotation system, but designed for specific decent and speed rates

[skadi]

Seems like the weather is not as bad as predicted for today. The "Granuaile" is again on station at Blackrock.

skadi

[Ber Nooly]

R116 was tracking directly to Blackrock for the last 100nm after it left Dublin, and indeed passed by Blacksod about 4nm south, still maintaining a direct track to Blackrock, then went close by Blackrock and then turned back and approached it again. It is clear R116 was consistently aiming for what we know was Blackrock.

I don't agree at all. From 100 NM out it was headed in the general area of Blacksod/Blackrock, etc., but this could have been actually a route towards the ship's location. To say that it passed 4 NM south of Blacksod so it wasn't heading for it is being a little simplistic.

[[email protected]]

Unlikely to be heading for the boat since R118 was doing that plus they had already declared they were refuelling at Blacksod before comtinuing on any tasking.

If they had no NVD it is more likely they were using a legacy profile from S61 days to get to Blacksod - if this meant using Blackrock as a visual marker to confirm they were clear of any other terrain then it sort of makes sense but still doesn't explain how they came to hit the rock.

[helicrazi]

It must be my simplistic brain, but why wouldn't you just set up a way point out in sea and track in, rather than heading for a bit of rock miles away to potentially get visible with said bit of rock, only to lose it behind you as you head for land, possible losing both landmark references, at least with letting down offshore using radar and taws you can track in direct as required at low level?

[FlightSpanner]

Unlikely to be heading for the boat since R118 was doing that plus they had already declared they were refuelling at Blacksod before comtinuing on any tasking.

If they had no NVD it is more likely they were using a legacy profile from S61 days to get to Blacksod - if this meant using Blackrock as a visual marker to confirm they were clear of any other terrain then it sort of makes sense but still doesn't explain how they came to hit the rock.

To regain VMC?

[[email protected]]

To regain VMC? Yes, it would seem so.

helicrazi - yes it does seem a complicated way to do it but I guess they had their reasons.

It is disappointing that the introduction of NVD has taken so long though.

[Scattercat]

Yes, it would seem so.

helicrazi - yes it does seem a complicated way to do it but I guess they had their reasons.

It is disappointing that the introduction of NVD has taken so long though.

Once all of the factors come to light in the investigation of this sad event, I suspect it will be somewhat more than "disappointing" that this crew weren't equipped with NVD's. It's not like this is new technology. Expensive yes .... lifesaving? ... possibly.

[Ber Nooly]

It must be my simplistic brain, but why wouldn't you just set up a way point out in sea and track in, rather than heading for a bit of rock miles away to potentially get visible with said bit of rock, only to lose it behind you as you head for land, possible losing both landmark references, at least with letting down offshore using radar and taws you can track in direct as required at low level?

Their original plan seems to have been to go out to sea to get establish comms with R118. This being unsuccessful they may have changed their plan, turned back to land and refuel at Blacksod, hence the turn. Still, why turn to Blackrock?

[LAXX5]

It had flotation system, but designed for specific decent and speed rates

From the S-92 Rotorcraft Flight Manaul:
The floats are not designed to absorb the force of water impact and must only
be deployed after water entry. When the flotation system is armed, the floats will automatically deploy via the immersion switch or manually deploy via the collective mounted FLOAT switch. The pilot should manually deploy the floats immediately after water entry.
The ELT is self-activated by a crash force of 12 Gs.

[Vibetribe]

Quote:
Cause.

The cause of this accident is unknown at this stage, and all aspects will be investigated, including weather, human factors, and technical issues. Initial examination of the technical records of the aircraft have not identified any anomalies and the Health & Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) readings taken from the previous flight, show no irregularities – including in the specific area of the Tail Rotor Pitch Change Shaft (TRPCS) bearing.

[agirl]

Us Canadians can't seem to fly without a map Garmin on the panel, but the 92 had lots of mapping capability. Rear crew with their detailed maps showing own position and communicating to the front. EGPWS will paint shorelines and obstacles, so will radar, RadAlts plus GPS altitude if required, user waypoints can be defined as airports and will show up on the flightplan screen (almost Garmin-like), and finally the iPads with any number of apps that map. JeppFD strangely enough shows Blackrock but with an elevation of only 46' - anybody else confirm?

The elevation of 46' is more like the elevation of Blacksod which is 43'.

I am convinced there was a mix up between Blackrock and Blacksod. If you look at Wikipedia Lighthouses of Ireland page, the Location coordinates for both lighthouses show Blacksod Bay.

It is quite possible that someone keyed in Blacksod Bay as a destination and did not realise that there were two lighthouses at that address and accidently chose the wrong one.

[Fullofexcuses01]

Quote:
Cause.

The cause of this accident is unknown at this stage, and all aspects will be investigated, including weather, human factors, and technical issues. Initial examination of the technical records of the aircraft have not identified any anomalies and the Health & Usage Monitoring System (HUMS) readings taken from the previous flight, show no irregularities – including in the specific area of the Tail Rotor Pitch Change Shaft (TRPCS) bearing.

How do you know this information? Is it confirmed by chc or the Coast Guard? Please share

[cncpc]

The elevation of 46' is more like the elevation of Blacksod which is 43'.

I am convinced there was a mix up between Blackrock and Blacksod. If you look at Wikipedia Lighthouses of Ireland page, the Location coordinates for both lighthouses show Blacksod Bay.

It is quite possible that someone keyed in Blacksod Bay as a destination and did not realise that there were two lighthouses at that address and accidently chose the wrong one.

Google Earth shows it at 36 feet.

These are monitored flights, are they not?

[smcc63]

How do you know this information? Is it confirmed by chc or the Coast Guard? Please share

CHC is represented on the board of Helioffshore

[[email protected]]

It is quite possible that someone keyed in Blacksod Bay as a destination and did not realise that there were two lighthouses at that address and accidently chose the wrong one. They will have had the Landing site at Blacksod as a waypoint since it is a well-used refuel point.

Very unlikely to just mix up the lighthouses.

[cncpc]

Plus it makes no sense they would land at Blackrock. It's uninhabited and there's no fuel. the lighthouse is solar powered.

There's a contract in place between Irish lights who operate the lighthouses and the coast guard to provide helipad and refuelling services on the western seaboard at the manned lighthouses at Blacksod and Castletownbere. i.e. they would not choose Blackrock.


Edit: Annex 12A of this document includes a site plan for Blacksod helipad. http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/ircg-liaison-agreements-and-mous/2010-03-22-service-level-agreement-ircg-and-cil-2010-signed.pdf

Concise and correct. On available facts, there is no rational basis for a theory there was to be an intentional landing at Blackrock.

It seems that there is a sparsity of revealed comms for this operation. Surely there has been more communication than the Dublin departure ATC tape and the "Landing Blacksod" snippet?

Would anyone have the AIS track for R115? Had it gone out to the ship, or where was it?

[justanotherflyer]

They will have had the Landing site at Blacksod as a waypoint since it is a well-used refuel point.


Indeed so - it would appear the same helicopters flew a very similar mission just five days earlier. Including both refueling at Blacksod.

The skies are desolately quiet without the crew of Rescue 116 - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-skies-are-desolately-quiet-without-the-crew-of-rescue-116-35542611.html)

Not necessarily the same crews, of course.

[Thunderbirdsix]

Rescue 118 now landing at Blacksod after flying to Dublin to collect some equipment.

[cncpc]

The words "It's a possibility" were referring to whether they needed to go out to the boat. They were not used in reference to landing at/on Blacksod helipad.

As pointed out, they need to play it by ear to some extent as things evolve. The lack of contact with R118 was obviously causing them to consider their options. Land the chopper, refuel it and make a plan of action.

Does anyone know the co-ordinates of where this boat was? Is it possible that the track we see from Dublin was a direct track to where the rescue was to take place? There is then the conversation where R116 says their plan is not to go to the ship, but it is a possibility. At that time there were com problems with R118, which seems to be some distance ahead of R116, who may not have known whether they might in fact have to go all the way out. If they remained unsure of what R118 was doing, they may have decided to go to Blacksod for fuel if standing top cover at the ship was still a possibility.

In that scenario we would have the Shannon convo taking place east of Blackrock, the decision to turn back resulting in the teardrop track, and then...?

Would they have launched direct the ship without needing a fuel stop, or would the fuel stop have been necessary with them considering that the status of R118 was uncertain and they would need full fuel to continue out to sea?

[smcc63]

Does anyone know the co-ordinates of where this boat was? Is it possible that the track we see from Dublin was a direct track to where the rescue was to take place? There is then the conversation where R116 says their plan is not to go to the ship, but it is a possibility. At that time there were com problems with R118, which seems to be some distance ahead of R116, who may not have known whether they might in fact have to go all the way out. If they remained unsure of what R118 was doing, they may have decided to go to Blacksod for fuel if standing top cover at the ship was still a possibility.

In that scenario we would have the Shannon convo taking place east of Blackrock, the decision to turn back resulting in the teardrop track, and then...?

Would they have launched direct the ship without needing a fuel stop, or would the fuel stop have been necessary with them considering that the status of R118 was uncertain and they would need full fuel to continue out to sea?
With 30‐minute reserve:
Range is 467 nm (865 km) with normal fuel
Range is 802 nm (1,485 km) with two 210‐gallon internal aux tanks

[Red5ive]

I believe on the Dublin ATC R116 took off heavy and also refused a vertical take off because of that.

At Black Sod Bay, the Le Samuel Beckett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%89_Samuel_Beckett_(P61)) is now the lead ship.

[SASless]

Also worthy of consideration is the "early" landing call to ATC by 116.....as they were some distance from ATC's location they may have made the "Landing Blacksod!" call while they were still high enough to have reliable comms with ATC.

[Thunderbirdsix]

Prime Time at 9.30pm on RTE1 tv say they have new information about the collision avoidance system on Rescue 116, Prime Time is a current affairs programme it can be watched on your laptop through the RTE player, go to rte.ie/player

[cncpc]

I believe on the Dublin ATC R116 took off heavy and also refused a vertical take off because of that.

At Black Sod Bay, the Le Samuel Beckett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%89_Samuel_Beckett_(P61)) is now the lead ship.

If it intended to land at Blacksod before continuing on to the rescue site, there would have been no need to take off heavy.

[tenbyboy]

Just a thought !! Descending through 4000ft in marginal weather towards blacksod lighthouse in the black of night low cloud mist light rain on instruments and all going to plan...in the distance beam of light breaking through the cloud from the lighthouse (blackrock) thinking they are home start to concentrate on the approach and just take the eye of nav instruments as they becoming visual with their destination. .I've done it before in a fixed wing flying to harverard west in Wales 9nm out visual with the airport had been so paticular all the way across the water checking double checking dme vor GPS the lot ..seeing the airport in front of me took my eye off everything and ended up on finals for st David's military I'm not the first for this to happen ,commercial flights have done it too at other destinations...if I had of even glanced at my GPS dme I would of noticed immediately
Very sad to all involved hope they are recovered soon

@Eyesee
I take it you mean Haverfordwest? ;)

[Red5ive]

First dives are planned from dawn on Friday on the wreckage of Rescue 116 off the north Mayo (https://www.irishtimes.com/search/search-7.1213540?tag_organisation=Mayo&article=true) coast as the search continues for three missing Irish Coast Guard helicopter airmen.


The Navy divers working in pairs will have an eight-minute limit on the seabed
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dives-on-wreckage-to-begin-as-blacksod-search-continues-1.3022607
(https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dives-on-wreckage-to-begin-as-blacksod-search-continues-1.3022607?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

[mr velo]

"Final reported altitude 220 ft".

"EGPWS database did not contain Blackrock".


This was just reported on PrimeTime on RTE television.

[Ber Nooly]

It has just been stated on RTE's Primtime programme that the EGPWS database on R116 did NOT contain Blackrock, therefore it could not warn them about the imminent collision. Also that their last reported altitude was 220 ft..

[smcc63]

Re "prime Time" at 220 feet approaching Blackrock,with 9nm to reach blacksod , doesn't add up

[helicrazi]

It has just been stated on RTE's Primtime programme that the EGPWS database on R116 did NOT contain Blackrock, therefore it could not warn them about the imminent collision. Also that their last reported altitude was 220 ft..

Still should have shown up on the wx radar? That is shocking though, gobsmacked it wasn't in the database, sends shivers...

[Ber Nooly]

Still should have shown up on the wx radar? That is shocking though, gobsmacked it wasn't in the database, sends shivers...

I'm not sure how terrain shows up on weather radar? I'm sure its returns must be different to those of water droplets, so if the radar is tuned to water is it possible that it may not show up terrain?

[helicrazi]

I'm not sure how terrain shows up on weather radar? I'm sure its returns must be different to those of water droplets, so if the radar is tuned to water is it possible that it may not show up terrain?

It would have shown up

[Eyesee]

@Eyesee
I take it you mean Haverfordwest? ;)

Sorry I do indeed 🖒

[wiggy]

Can't talk for the aircraft in question here but any weather radar I've used over the years has done a good job at portraying significant terrain, most especially coastlines/islands.

[Ber Nooly]

Can't talk for the aircraft in question here but any weather radar I've used over the years has done a good job at portraying significant terrain, most especially coastlines/islands.

I wonder if a slightly downward radar tilt at such a low altitude would fail to pick up terrain until it was too late.

[henra]

I wonder if a slightly downward radar tilt at such a low altitude would fail to pick up terrain until it was too late.

Why should it? Cumulu Granitus should give a very solid return, especially if they were below crest height (which would be the case at 220ft).

[Ber Nooly]

Why should it? Cumulu Granitus should give a very solid return, especially if they were below crest height (which would be the case at 220ft).
Because it would be scanning the sea surface just in front of the aircraft and not picking up distant targets.

[henra]

Because it would be scanning the sea surface just in front of the aircraft and not picking up distant targets.

Unlikely that it would be so much swept that it wouldn't be able to see what's half a mile in front of it.
Somehow still unexplicable and very likely a very unfortunate chain of events/circumstances. Blackrock not potentially being in the EGPWS DB probably being one important factor

[soggyboxers]

I do wish so many idiots would stop posting utter rubbish on this thread until we know what really happened. Even in the 1970s the weather radar we had would have picked up something like Blackrock even in Wx mode

[Red5ive]

What caused the crash of Rescue 116?

Katie Hannon has new information on the operation of the system designed to give the crew a final warning of an obstacle in their flight-path.


http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-extras-30003379/10703638/ (https://rte.ie/player/)

(may need Irish IP/proxy to view)

[rotorspeed]

Just because Blackrock was not in R116's EGPWS database presumably that doesn't necessarily mean the crew did not know about it? The notion that they were therefore unaware of it doesn't fully explain things to me. If you didn't know about Blackrock (and assumed it was open sea) would you still pick that point to do a let down? And to 220ft? It is still a long way from Blacksod, and also not in the middle of open sea to the southeast. Furthermore if one assumes that they did pick that fairly random point, why do a tear drop pattern to return right to it after the first approach? But more importantly this location doesn't look a great one to me to use for a low level straight in approach over sea to Blacksod - there are uninhabited (unlit) islands pretty much en route to cross, 3 miles from Blacksod.

So just because Blackrock wasn't in the EGPWS database could it still have been in in the FMS database? If not, could they have been aware of Blackrock from charts and entered the coordinates manually in the nav database? And presumably, given a fairly long direct track to it, the coordinates were inputted to navigate to that point, even if they thought it was open sea not Blackrock. And finally, was Blackrock shown on the moving map display that they were presumably monitoring? For example, it is on a 1:500,000 moving map I use.

[Red5ive]

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-extras-30003379/10703638/ (https://rte.ie/player/)

(may need Irish IP/proxy to view)

Doesn't the RTE report assume all the Coastguard S92's have the same spec'

Is it strange that Sligo-based R118 helicopter had been tasked at 9.40pm on Monday night to go 241km west and
R116 left Dublin at 11.02pm.
Wouldn't that mean R116 was then about two hours twenty behind R118, if you assume about an hour to get to the west coast doing about 100kts.

[cncpc]

Doesn't the RTE report assume all the Coastguard S92's have the same spec'

Is it strange that Sligo-based R118 helicopter had been tasked at 9.40pm on Monday night to go 241km west and
R116 left Dublin at 11.02pm.
Wouldn't that mean R116 was then about two hours twenty behind R118, if you assume about an hour to get to the west coast doing about 100kts.

And nobody had any idea where it was when R116 turned around.

[megan]

Forgive me, a little off thread, but posted to address a statement made earlier by malabo. I don't buy the "there but for the grace of god, everyone messes up sometime, etc" arguments. Operations procedures are meant to be boilerplate, to tolerate the "human errors" that can creep in. In the course of observing 60 flights 899 deviations were observed, 194 in checklist use, 391 in monitoring, and 314 in primary procedures.

PrecisChecklists and monitoring are two essential defenses against equipment failures and pilot errors. Problems with checklist use and pilots’ failures to monitor adequately have a long history in aviation accidents. This study was conducted to explore why checklists and monitoring sometimes fail to catch errors and equipment malfunctions as intended. Flight crew procedures were observed from the cockpit jumpseat during normal airline operations in order to: 1) collect data on monitoring and checklist use in cockpit operations in typical flight conditions; 2) provide a plausible cognitive account of why deviations from formal checklist and monitoring procedures sometimes occur; 3) lay a foundation for identifying ways to reduce vulnerability to inadvertent checklist and monitoring errors; 4) compare checklist and monitoring execution in normal flights with performance issues uncovered in accident investigations; and 5) suggest ways to improve the effectiveness of checklists and monitoring. Cognitive explanations for deviations from prescribed procedures are provided, along with suggestions for countermeasures for vulnerability to error.

https://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/publications/NASA-TM-2010-216396.pdf

malabo, you must be management given your statement.

[oleary]

I do wish so many idiots would stop posting utter rubbish on this thread until we know what really happened. Even in the 1970s the weather radar we had would have picked up something like Blackrock even in Wx mode

What soogyboxers said.

[Ber Nooly]

I do wish so many idiots would stop posting utter rubbish on this thread ...

Charming...

[Pltnorway]

I wonder if a slightly downward radar tilt at such a low altitude would fail to pick up terrain until it was too late.

No, it would not fail to pick up terrain ahead of you.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

BER NOOLY you are getting a bit of a kicking because your posts, although childlike to us in the know, are good questions that are at the heart of this accident.

EGPWS is not the panacea you would imagine it to be and can never be trusted as a primary navigation aid. The Regulator makes that clear as does the manufacturer.

The WX Radar, If used reasonably competently should show a clear coastline. Islands, ships and boats. It's hard to accept that this crew, doing such a procedure, at such heights AMSL, would not have the Radar trimmed for optimum performance. At the heights implied large ships become a hazard. This was their bread and butter day job after all.

It's as hard to accept they navigated to the wrong waypoint.

While there is always potential for human error, In this case there were multiple layers of "humans" experienced and authorotive enough to reduce the chances of an error exponentially.

It is for these reasons that Soggy Boxers is getting irritated because in the end, the only real answers may come from the wreckage, FDR and CVR data. Without this information, nothing of this incident makes any sense when the experience and skills of that crew are considered.

BER nooly. Hope that explains Soggies frustration.

[Thunderbirdsix]

Doesn't the RTE report assume all the Coastguard S92's have the same spec'

Is it strange that Sligo-based R118 helicopter had been tasked at 9.40pm on Monday night to go 241km west and
R116 left Dublin at 11.02pm.
Wouldn't that mean R116 was then about two hours twenty behind R118, if you assume about an hour to get to the west coast doing about 100kts.


Rescue 118 was tasked at that time but went from Sligo direct to Blacksod to refuel before heading to the ship, I would have thought that top cover should have the two S92s travelling together and not to be so far behind.

[Fareastdriver]

For what it's worth I posted this a week ago.

I am reminded by a CFIT in China in the late 90s. This was flying towards the coast, VFR, in a low cloudbase and flew into the steeply rising coastline. The radar was on and from the CVR the crew, being aware of the coastline, had commenced to backtrack towards the sea. From the wreckage the radar was assessed as being on and the tilt was selected at least 5 degrees up.

Flying with the radar tilted is common to avoid ground returns that interfere with returns from cloud formations especially over land. The upwards tilt will mask obstacles directly in front at and below the same height. For example, using the 1/60 rule 1 degree tilt up will hide a 1 foot obstacle 60ft in front; a 100ft obstacle 6,000ft in front. 5 degrees nose up will mask the same obstacle at 1,200ft or under a 1/4 mile. Most radars, when selected to 5 miles or greater, will not define at a 1/4 mile as it will be lost in scanner base scatter. It means that you can fly at a 300ft cliff at 200ft and not be aware of it.

Again I am not familiar with the this helicopters radar kit but that happened once. Not on the database they could have thought it was a ship.

[tistisnot]

Charming...

Soggy is right - await 3 things 1. CV/FDR retrieved intact, 2. All bodies recovered 3. Prelim accident report published ...... and then start discussing.

[helicrazi]

For what it's worth I posted this a week ago.



Again I am not familiar with the this helicopters radar kit but that happened once. Not on the database they could have thought it was a ship.

A ship would look different than a land mass, and would you pass over a ship at 220ft? Still doesn't add up.

[Ber Nooly]

BER NOOLY you are getting a bit of a kicking because your posts, although childlike to us in the know, are good questions that are at the heart of this accident.

EGPWS is not the panacea you would imagine it to be and can never be trusted as a primary navigation aid. The Regulator makes that clear as does the manufacturer.

The WX Radar, If used reasonably competently should show a clear coastline. Islands, ships and boats. It's hard to accept that this crew, doing such a procedure, at such heights AMSL, would not have the Radar trimmed for optimum performance. At the heights implied large ships become a hazard. This was their bread and butter day job after all.

It's as hard to accept they navigated to the wrong waypoint.

While there is always potential for human error, In this case there were multiple layers of "humans" experienced and authorotive enough to reduce the chances of an error exponentially.

It is for these reasons that Soggy Boxers is getting irritated because in the end, the only real answers may come from the wreckage, FDR and CVR data. Without this information, nothing of this incident makes any sense when the experience and skills of that crew are considered.

BER nooly. Hope that explains Soggies frustration.

Childlike but also a good question? Which is it? So a downward radar tilt while flying at 220 ft would have no problem detecting something say 2 km ahead?

I never said EGPWS was a panacea or their primary means of navigation, quite the opposite in fact.

There is a way to answer questions, which the vast majority of people have done in a civil way. There is just one senior member that seems to have a chip on his shoulder, as also evidenced in some of his replies on other threads too.

[helicrazi]

Childlike but also a good question? Which is it? So a downward radar tilt while flying at 220 ft would have no problem detecting something say 2 km ahead?

I never said EGPWS was a panacea or their primary means of navigation, quite the opposite in fact.

There is a way to answer questions, which the vast majority of people have done in a civil way. There is just one senior member that seems to have a chip on his shoulder, as also evidenced in some of his replies on other threads too.

Yes is the answer, the radar would see it. Based upon standard set up etc etc etc doesn't matter if you are in wx mode or gmap, the tilt would have to have been extreme not to pick it up. Which I can think of no reason for it to be anything other than within a normal range.

[Ber Nooly]

Rescue 118 was tasked at that time but went from Sligo direct to Blacksod to refuel before heading to the ship, I would have thought that top cover should have the two S92s travelling together and not to be so far behind.

Anyone know what approach to Blacksod R118 used? Did it go via Blackrock too? Conditions at nearby Belmullet were not ideal in the hours previous.

Midnight
Visibility 2.5 km, Ceiling 400 ft

11 pm
Visibility 3.9 km, Ceiling 600 ft

10 pm
Visibility 6 km, Ceiling 500 ft

[Madbob]

Whats' the wx like today for recovery work to commence? Any update appreciated.
MB

[Ber Nooly]

While there is always potential for human error, In this case there were multiple layers of "humans" experienced and authorotive enough to reduce the chances of an error exponentially.



As there were in AF447, Asiana at SFO, Turkish 1951 at Amsterdam, etc...

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

BER NOOLY, sadly your question is "childlike" in that if you had experience of the weather radar you would know the answer to your question is impossible given the variables in play. I am not being rude just explaining why people get frustrated with some posters.

The EGPWS is the virtual world.
The RADAR is the real world,

but as you quite correctly state there are errors that can be made in setting it up to give accurate information that you may need at that particular time. Crews such as SAR are well practiced in such techniques and scenarios. There is nothing to suggest this crew did anything wrong with the radar, but it is possible to set it up so badly that the picture it provides does not give the information you may need. It is also possible, with severe sea conditions, that sea clutter can obscure the targets in play ahead of you. Again this crew would certainly know that.

Many of us understand these issues very well and thus can see no merit in trying to decode what and what did not take place in that cockpit.

Don't take your bat home but just recognise that some issues seem black and white but in reality they are much more complex.

We have to wait for the real situation that will hopefully be presented by the recorded data on the FDR/CVR. In the meantime the desktop assessments count for f***k all.

[pfm1000]

Whats' the wx like today for recovery work to commence? Any update appreciated.
MB

Pretty good for the next few days:

Sea Area Forecast until 0600 Saturday 25 March 2017

Forecast for Irish coastal waters from Valentia to Erris Head to Howth Head:
Wind: Northeasterly or variable force 3 or less.
Weather: Fair.
Visibility: Good.

Outlook for a further 24 hours until 0600, Sunday, 26 March 2017: Light easterly winds in the northwest and north, elsewhere moderate northeasterly winds occasionally fresh in the southeast. Fair weather.

[Thunderbirdsix]

Whats' the wx like today for recovery work to commence? Any update appreciated.
MB


Weather at the site today is reported as excellent, diving to commence at 10am, Navy divers will go down two at a time and can only spend ten minutes at the site before coming back, two more will then go down ,this is so they don't need to decompress after a dive, they are all currently at the site so hopefully things will go ok for them.

[pfm1000]

Divers expected to go down around now.

From RTE:

"Naval Service divers are due to commence their investigations at the wreckage of Coast Guard Rescue Helicopter 116 shortly.

Sea conditions are favourable and fair weather expected for the area around the search site.

Teams of specialist Naval Service divers will embark in pairs and will stay underwater for ten-minute periods.

The operation is being coordinated by the LÉ Samuel Beckett, which is located close to the wreckage at Blackrock Island.

It is hoped that the three missing crew members - Captain Mark Duffy, Winch Operator Paul Ormsby and Winchman Ciarán Smith may still be in the wreckage.

Detailed mapping of the undersea conditions has been carried out in recent days and images gathered by specialist cameras have been reviewed by the multiple agencies involved in the operation.

The wreckage is located in waters 60m off the western face of Blackrock, at a depth of around 40m.

Wind conditions in the area have eased considerably and the forecast is for fair or fine weather with good visibility.

Specialist equipment was loaded onto boats at Blacksod pier yesterday evening in anticipation of those favourable sea conditions.

All the agencies involved are stressing that safety concerns will take precedence throughout the operation.

At a briefing at Blacksod Lighthouse last night, Superintendent Tony Healy said the hope was that the three crew were in or near the wreckage.

He said the conditions for underwater exploration of the helicopter were the best that search teams had experienced so far.

Chief Investigator with the Air Accident Investigation Unit Jurgen Whyte said a lot of information had been gathered and that everything possible was being done to assist the dive process.

He said he was confident that dive conditions would be good for a number of days.

Mr Whyte said the priority was to recover the three crew members before efforts were made to access the flight recorder."

[Ber Nooly]

Weather at the site today is reported as excellent, diving to commence at 10am, Navy divers will go down two at a time and can only spend ten minutes at the site before coming back, two more will then go down ,this is so they don't need to decompress after a dive, they are all currently at the site so hopefully things will go ok for them.

Weather at Belmullet at 10 am:

AAXX 24101 03976 45/71 /1602 10087 20028 30318 40330 52010==

Visibility 21 km, Wind 160 ° (SE) 2 m/s (3 knots)

[industry insider]

Ber Nooly


So a downward radar tilt while flying at 220 ft would have no problem detecting something say 2 km ahead? I don't think I would ever use a down tilt at 220', it would be at least level tilt if not one division up, depending on clutter. I always wanted to see as much as possible what was in front.

[catch21]

Divers expected to go down around now.

From RTE:

"...

The wreckage is located in waters 60m off the western face of Blackrock, at a depth of around 40m.

..."

Can you confirm western face? Previous communications have said the area of interest is to the east?