Aeros, with or without ?

[sunday driver]

Assuming my Class 2 medical renewal goes OK, I'll be continuing aero instruction at my local school.

Now CAA strongly advise aeros to be committed with parachute attached to person. And of course all gliding is carried out with parachute - the courses I took at Lasham a few years ago got me intimate with wearing the things.

I have already had a couple of aero sessions, however, I have never seen the VERY experienced and capable instructor at my local school troubling himself with a parachute - indeed I have never seen one on the entire airfield (been going there for more than 20 years).

Without getting too specific, the aircraft they use is a lovely, very capable and reasonably new, high wing, tandem monoplane and I suppose you could argue that by the time any ageing pilots have extricated themselves it would all be over.

So - parachutes for aeros?
I'm inclined to raise the topic with them - but what's a good strategy?

[Piltdown Man]

Safety equipment has to be usable to justify its presence. Wearing parachutes in an aircraft that is near enough impossible to get out of is pointless. But wearing one in an aircraft you can get out makes sense. But again, this comes with caveats. When it comes time to hit the silk you will almost certainly be leaving your aircraft in anything other than a normal attitude, with an abnormal airflow, a high rate of descent and quite likely with rotation about more than one axis. Once free you will have to find and pull the ripcord. Easier written than performed.

And the question you have to ask, is why are you are having to jump? Broken aircraft, mid-air collision or disorientation? The reason I ask it that if you think about these things beforehand it makes it easier to make the decision to jump. When you do jump, there is no lower limit. Make sure you can get out quickly by practicing before every flight. Do not wait for canopies to come off. Release them by all means but always release your SEAT harness immediately after. Once out you will need to find the ripcord as fast as possible. A good technique is to curl up into a ball, look for it and with both hands pull. The rest is luck although you can get training.

How you raise the subject, not a clue I'm afraid. How about asking outright?

[ShyTorque]

It was mandatory for RAF Bulldog crews to wear parachutes for all flights. During a real aircraft abandonment after a UAS QFI couldn't recover from a high rotational spin, he ordered his student to "Jump, jump, jump!"

The student forgot to jettison the canopy iaw the emergency drills and instead opened it by sliding it back, as for a normal egress. After he jumped the aircraft promptly came out of the spin. The QFI watched him land in a field then flew back to base!

[tmmorris]

Interesting point about not waiting for the canopy to go as that's not what cadets are taught for the Tutor - instead it's a sequence of actions designed to get the canopy to go, THEN release the harness.

[Piltdown Man]

But the question is, have they actually jumped from an aircraft?

[Philoctetes]

For aeros practice at altitude - parachute yes
For serious work overhead an airfield or in competition, you will probably be too low for a parachute, but then, you should not be getting into serious trouble at such low heights - those snags are sorted at altitude..
For structural failures, the same applies.

[markkal]

When **** hits the fan, even without skydiving experience many pilots managed to bail out of, aerobatic a/c with quick jettison canopies. All but one i am aware of saved their lives, one of them unfortunately hit the tail. I would never fly an aerobatic machine without parachutes. Bailing out is far better than land a tailwheel on rough ground, high approaching speeds around 80 kts, and the almost certainty of tipping over is very riski business, when tipping over the neck is likely to be exposed and then fire cannot be ruled out....In the likelyhood of a possible major malfunction in the air, be prepared to sacrifice the aircraft to save your life, and please do practice regularly idle engine emergency landings over airfield...

[OpenCirrus619]

Modern, emergency, parachutes deploy really quickly - see: https://youtu.be/2oJngucEac4
In the interview afterwards Rob says he made the decision to bail at ~500'.

Glider pilots wear them for 2 reasons:
- There is a significant risk of collision when many gliders are crowding into one thermal
- The seats are bl***ing uncomfortable without them

[B2N2]

Maybe you shouldn't fly aeros in a plane you cant get out of.....:ugh:

[Big Pistons Forever]

I always have a parachute when I do aeros. More importantly I rehearse the bail out drill before every flight. It is that practiced muscle memory when everything is going to shyte that will save you, otherwise the parachute is just an expensive seat cushion.

[djpil]

Without getting too specific, the aircraft they use is a lovely, very capable and reasonably new, high wing, tandem monoplane and I suppose you could argue that by the time any ageing pilots have extricated themselves it would all be over. ..... SDSomething like a Super Decathlon, I guess. I'm aware of two incidents where chutes were successfully used, unfortunately only one person in each case and both had 2 pob.
I was involved with a flying school that considered chutes but it wasn't practical for two reasons. Allowing time for the student to eject the door then get out followed by the instructor resulted in a quite high minimum altitude for our operations. Secondly, the chutes ate too much into the useful load.

As someone said, no use it being an expensive cushion - must have the discipline to plan to use it.

Flying low level aeros solo for a competition or display in a Pitts etc I'd wear a chute.

[Geosync]

I always wore one in a Super D and even a Citabria. I know of glider pilot that had a mid-air with a Hawker, and was able to bail out successfully. The Hawker also limped to an @ss puckering but successful landing at the closest airfield. So, I'd fall back on the old adage- "it's better to have one and not need one, than need one and not have one".

[clareprop]

As a pilot and an ex-skydiving instructor with 1500+ jumps, no hesitation in saying wear one. BUT..know how to use it and don't rely on being able to...

[clunckdriver]

WITH!, {I'm talking from experience, but not going to tell you about it!}

[ShyTorque]

I always have a parachute when I do aeros. More importantly I rehearse the bail out drill before every flight. It is that practiced muscle memory when everything is going to shyte that will save you, otherwise the parachute is just an expensive seat cushion. I totally agree.

During my time as a QFI a new order was published, mandating that due to excessive wear of the covers of parachutes caused by climbing in and out of the aircraft (Bulldog), pilots were henceforth to unstrap from the 'chute before exiting the airframe on the ground, then carefully lift the chute out. We were then required to carry out an emergency egress drill once a month, IIRC (when we were allowed to keep the 'chute on, obviously).

I refused to comply, knowing that regularly unstrapping from the seat and the 'chute was building a scenario where someone might possibly unstrap from the 'chute in the air in the heat of an emergency and exit without it. I continued to exit with my 'chute ON.

A QFI of another unit was later lost in a tragic LOC accident when he abandoned his aircraft and fell out of his 'chute when it opened. The accident report concluded that he had inadvertently unlocked the QRB at some stage in the proceedings. :(

[sunday driver]

Thanks all for the opinions and experience - particularly about pre-flight mental and actual rehearsal.

[Deltasierra010]

Interestingly, it is not mandatory to wear a parachute in a glider, passengers who are large and heavy are quite often flown for weight/space reasons without a 'chute. However, even though the cost and maintenence of them is high most flights are taken with a parachute, the risk of collision is higher especially on a cross country flight because any glider thermaling attracts others and you don't see them all.
A low wing aircraft with a decent canopy jettison should be easy to exit but a high wing aircraft that is out of control would be more challenging, all of that is assuming you have enough height for the canopy to open.

[TheOddOne]

The alternative is a secondary restraint system, as fitted sometimes to the Cessna Aerobat. As structural failure in this type is very unlikely and egress from the door, even with the quick-release hinges, is problematic, you're probably better staying with the aircraft for a forced landing. If you lose control at sufficient height in a C152 to be able to bale out, then LET GO and the a/c should recover. If you're too low for it to recover, then you're not going to get out anyway.

[212man]

A QFI of another unit was later lost in a tragic LOC accident when he abandoned his aircraft and fell out of his 'chute when it opened. The accident report concluded that he had inadvertently unlocked the QRB at some stage in the proceedings.

Yes, and then we went back to exiting whilst wearing it again.

...with parachute attached to person

They're generally more effective that way :E