Quick question re total inability to turn

[ToTheWoods]

Hi folks,

One (hopefully quick) question.

I had a lesson in a PA28 yesterday and it was my first after a ‘break’ of 18 years. (I previously had 10 hours in a 172).

We tried normal turns and mine were pretty shocking. It actually got a little heated in the cockpit. I’m 6’ and couldn’t see the engine cowling which I think may be partly responsible. Please could someone describe in simple terms what I should look for outside the window in a turn to the left? E.g. should the engine cowling be visible and if so should it be on, above or below the horizon? Is the cowling even the point of reference? I realise this may be a thick as a whale omelette question but I couldn’t get it yesterday and I've looked online in vain.

Thank you

[Sillert,V.I.]

Don't be too hard on yourself. Having a clear & distinct horizon helps a great deal, and UK weather isn't particularly kind in that regard.

It's a long time ago, but I remember my first few hours of training were done in abysmal weather, so those early flights were done just above a solid cloudbase. This is a great environment to practice turning as you have a distinct horizon, any change in height is quickly noticed, and there is usually no turbulence.

[jonkster]

Ask the instructor to demonstrate a turn first so you can train your eyes. Then you try and replicate that picture. Faster to see it done right first than stumbling about trying to guess and not getting it right.

[dont overfil]

In my early training days I found it important to have a reference point on the cowling to match the horizon. Not just for turning but also for flying at different speeds.
I'm surprised you can't see the cowling on a PA28. Can the seat be adjusted higher or perhaps you could use a cushion?
I've just thought of another option. I've seen helicopters use a narrow tape across the screen as a reference.

[Piltdown Man]

Is your seat at the right height? It should be adjustable so that you can clearly see the cowling, prop boss and an area of ground ahead of you. In flight, are you looking out or trying to sneak a look at the clocks inside? Next time, do as jonkster suggests and look ahead to the horizon as your instructor demos turns to the left and right.

PM

[Discorde]

Your view will be something like this:

http://steemrok.com/4142%20v1%20jpg

(From 'Handling Light Aircraft' by Julien Evans.)

[bgbazz]

Here's what worked for me, many years ago. Before you even start off on the flight, adjust your seat until you see the top of the cowling without straining your neck...make sure you are positioned correctly for reach as well, so when you are sat comfortably, able to reach everything and being able to see the top of the cowling, you should be good to go.

Once at cruising altitude, trim for straight and level, preferably over flatish terrain, confirm that the aircraft is maintaining that attitude and make a disctinct mark (I used a chinagraph pencil) on the windscreen in front of you, just where the sky meets the ground, off in the distance. It makes a really good attitude reference for the rest of the flight...and it wipes off afterwards!

Later on when converting to rotary flight on a Bell 47, with a bubble canopy, that method came in really handy. Some pilots I know, still have a piece of tape stuck there all the time.

[ToTheWoods]

That is brilliant - thank you so much!

The diagram really brings it home - I was clearly sitting faaaar too low in the aircraft as I couldn't see the cowling on the ground without stretching!

Hopefully the wx is good on Friday so I'll be back up - in the meantime it's FSX and The Flying Journalist on YouTube.

Thanks again folks.

[ChickenHouse]

Please could someone describe in simple terms what I should look for outside the window in a turn to the left? E.g. should the engine cowling be visible and if so should it be on, above or below the horizon? Is the cowling even the point of reference?
In simple terms? -> Do not, repeat, do not concentrate to actively "look" at any reference. If you do, you focus on one single spot, but you have to control a bunch of flying balls. Look outside and let your intuition do the rest while rapid scanning bank and vario. If you concentrate, you get too low. Get your brain to use the butt-AHRS connected brain-autopilot ;-).

[jamesgrainge]

Is it just me who prefers a low seating position? I am 6'3" so perhaps it just seems low. I prefer my face to be the one doing the horizon spotting out the window, as oppose to concentrating on the end of the nose, it always looks at the wrong attitude when I look over it.

[JGardener]

Are the seats of a Pa-28 normally height adjustable?

I have never noticed nor even looked.

[ToTheWoods]

I understand the posts since Discord's excellent diagram however I think I should make clear that I couldn't see anything other than the 30 deg triangle of land in the left if the view - i.e. I couldn't see the horizon at all as soon as I started turning. I think it's a seat height thing. Will report back on Friday :-)

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Is it just me who prefers a low seating position? I am 6'3" so perhaps it just seems low. I prefer my face to be the one doing the horizon spotting out the window, as oppose to concentrating on the end of the nose, it always looks at the wrong attitude when I look over it.

No; it's not just you and I'm only 5'11". I haven't flown a PA28 for a while, but the ones I flew had rivets on the centre windscreen bar. I just put a chosen rivet in the right place and it worked fine.

SND

Edit. The rivet method was explained by Brian Lecomber in Talk Down. He also used the cutaway portion at either end of the panel.

[ToTheWoods]

No; it's not just you and I'm only 5'11". I haven't flown a PA28 for a while, but the ones I flew had rivets on the centre windscreen bar. I just put a chosen rivet in the right place and it worked fine.

SND

Edit. The rivet method was explained by Brian Lecomber in Talk Down. He also used the cutaway portion at either end of the panel.
Hmm...I'm beginning to wonder if an (my) instructor ought to be explaining this to me after ten or so minutes of me asking what I should be looking for (while we were in the air).

I think I'll try again at my next lesson after explaining my issue with turns / views before we get to the aircraft.

[India Four Two]

I fly a 182 regularly. The first thing I do, before even strapping in, is winding the seat up as high as possible i.e. with my headset just missing the headlining.

[Flyingmac]

I fly a variety of aircraft. Often just once. First thing I do is jack the seat up before I sit in.
Most are easy to lower a touch while sitting. A real pain to heighten.


The horizon is wherever it is when you've trimmed for level flight.

[Duchess_Driver]

Me thinks the first thing I would be doing is changing instructor!

Firstly, you should have had a long briefing on all the science behind it, how to actuate the controls, what to look for and COMMON errors to avoid.

Secondly, you should have had a pre-flight brief to remind you how....

Thirdly, he should have demonstrated a turn then taught you the entry, maintenance and exit from, at each point allowing you to practice that small element. He certainly should not just be sitting there watching you struggle.... he should be analysing your performance and correcting the mistakes as you make them. If you haven't got it after two or three attempts he should br re-teaching....

[bingofuel]

We tried normal turns and mine were pretty shocking. It actually got a little heated in the cockpit.

That is not the atmosphere to learn in, an instructor should not let things become heated. I would suggest it became heated because he was incapable of instructing you correctly.

Get a better instructor!

[BEagle]

To be honest, that FI sounds to be totally and utterly clueless.

Teaching basic attitude exercises such as 'Medium Turns' should be the bread and butter of most PPL FIs. If he/she didn't emphasise the sequence of 'L00K OUT, ATTITUDE, INSTRUMENTS', then he/she wasn't teaching you properly.

Get a proper instructor and learn correctly - asking people on a 'private flying' forum is fraught with risk from unqualified posters.

[pulse1]

I get really annoyed when I hear of students receiving such bad instruction they do not at least understand how to carry out simple turns. I used to be an ATC gliding instructor and you have to be able to teach everything in 3 minute chunks using very efficient patter. Now I always offer my passengers in an SEP a go on the controls and I cannot remember one who couldn't do simple turns after one short demonstration of primary effects of controls along with a little patter to draw their attention to small changes in pitch. Some were obviously better than others and some would lose there coordination after about 10 minutes but everyone could understand what they were doing and why.

[mary meagher]

For all you short people....I have for years now been making seat cushions for the gliding club FROM STACKS OF NEWSPAPER! Wrapped in plastic tape.
And covered in a nice cloth cover. So the cost is ZILCH. (except for your effort).

Your seating must be NON COMPRESSIBLE. Try standing on a newspaper cushion, and it will NOT compress! And you can make it as high or low as suits your preference.

Just try to remember not to leave it out in the rain.....

[Piltdown Man]

I am very sorry but I have been guilty of assuming. I assumed you would have been introduced to the aircraft before flight. That would have covered seat adjustment, sun visors, doors, harnesses, escape, fire in flight etc. That would be a one-off for every new type of aircraft you get into. But before all that, a proper lesson plan would have been created and briefed through with you before flight. That is how proper instructors do things. Missing any of these is not really acceptable. Then in flight, I would expect a "pattered" demo so you could see what was expected of you followed by your attempts. Being a normal human being, you won't get it right first time - that is to be expected. Then the instructor really earns their money. Reinforcing what you got right and trying to work out how to fix the things you got wrong - staying calm (and cool) throughout.

PM

[Crash one]

Your view will be something like this:

http://steemrok.com/4142%20v1%20jpg

(From 'Handling Light Aircraft' by Julien Evans.)

Like Piltdownman I too assumed you had been shown seat adjustments etc.
The view above is certainly not what I get at 5' 8" in a PA28 nor a 172.
I had to crank the seat up as far as possible in a 152 to be able to see properly.
If you can't see the cowling out the front you have no reference for anything.
Rather like driving your car while looking out the sunroof.
That instructor is completely at fault and should be replaced.

[The_Pink_Panther]

TTW,

I think I flew with that instructor once; only once. No demo, shouts lots, doesn't change their delivery if you don't get it. It won't help you, and it doesn't give the school or other excellent instructors a good name. Lots of good advice already posted by others that I won't repeat.

Food for though - when I started to fly I learnt with an instructor who (without fail) calmly talked through a demonstration in the air to reinforce what he'd said on the ground. He did this with everything before getting me to do it. For a lot of the initial flying skills (turns, climbs, climbing turns, steep turns etc.) I found it infuriating as I already had a good handle on flying, but from there on in (stall recovery, spin recovery, unusual attitude recovery) I'd got so use to his mannerisms I could (nearly) always repeat his clam demonstration and patter without fail. Who you learn from and how you learn WILL set the bar you start flying from. No one enjoys flying with Captain Shouty McNoPatience.

TPP

[scifi]

Just wondered if the OP has ever ridden a Bike, it's much the same principle...
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfJjaQOnqNM
.
Use the same sort of bank angles...
.

[memories of px]

BBB LAI say no more!