KA248 tail strike

[LIKE.HKA]

It happened on 3/3 during landing at VDSR.

[kahaha]

Jedi Trainer failing to monitor the FO while showing off to the new joiner in the Jump Seat?

[Weary traveller]

What a puerile response. The checkie in question is a highly regarded and respected individual. Thus far we do not know how or what happened. I'd like to know how the photos managed to make it onto the www so quickly.

[Australia2]

Kahaha,

One of the most inappropriate posts seen in 20 odd years here; you have all the facts I'm assuming ? Failed PCA maybe ?

Absolutely pathetic on your behalf; as above a highly respected Captain with clearly more integrity and where with all than you could comprehend.

There by the grace of god we all go.

Over and out.

Oz2

[flyingbynight]

I'd like to know how the photos managed to make it onto the www so quickly.

You're actually surprised that photographs taken on a smartphone made it onto the internet so quickly?

[Flex88]

Maybe so but perhaps just as likely he/she had an ultra super duper "Brushwinger" highly experienced MPL pilot with 150 hrs in the RHS.

The CAD and KA management are on board for ALL of this... $$$$$$$$$$$$

[Trafalgar]

CR.....you just can't help yourself can you? :rolleyes: It's staring you in the face every single day or your life and you are utterly blind to it. Fascinating.

[Sqwak7700]

Funny how some airlines's incidents only get reported out of their home base.

I seem to remember a tail strike in HKG on a freighter that somehow does not come up on the database at avherald.

Interesting...

[goathead]

Kahahaha is failed in life
He currently leads his purile life at HKE and loves to poke fun at his previous employer KA #bitterntwisted

[kahaha]

If a senior TRE , with all his "respect" , wether demanded or commanded, cannot , at the critical moment in a flight, take control and execute a successful missed approach , then I stand by my words.

The plane bounced. If it was in the KA flight simulator on a check, and the crew had the same outcome, the TRE would have a field day berating the crew.

This was reality not simulation. And someone got it wrong. Period.

And maybe the tre took control after the bounce and got it wrong?

[blind pew]

As a very inexperienced and badly trained second officer I bounced at home base with a trainer in the left hand seat.....not knowing what to do I did as I would have on a Cherokee...kept the attitude but didn't apply power as in the outfit we weren't allowed...that was pnf.
The result was two flight controls stuck valve lights and various other warnings as well as a generator or two tripping..
After Sir had ascertained that we could roll to the gate he started laughing...that was my debriefing...in hindsight he obviously didn't know what to do.
The chief steward entered the cockpit and screeched after sir pointed at me and said "we're not flying with you again mate".
We all hid from the passengers as they disembarked.
Ps I've deleted the expeltives as I don't want to upset anyone

[SloppyJoe]

If that reply does not hit the nail on the head about the problem I don't think anything will.

I reverted to what I would do in a Cherokee.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Don't quite understand the last 2 posts. Sloppy an unverified post on pprune of all places does not indicate a problem.

[Gnadenburg]

It's disappointing to see the knife put into a couple of colleagues prior any outcome of an investigation and even then, any pilot with a bigger picture will understand the vulnerability of us all in a similar scenario. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, Airbus and the system washed their hands of any responsibility a little while ago by rescinding our "TOGA 10" training.

Now the Cherokee analogy may make you warm and fuzzy and secure mentally in your own professional insecurities in a similar scenario, however, the first time I flew a 321 I had 8000 short haul hours on Airbus. In typical fashion, we were tankering fuel to the extremities of MLW, it was my first flight on 321 and no KA training briefing or even a word on bug up with the software anomalies and VLS. Anyways, those who know the 321, know ghastly sinking feeling when you pull back stick in the flare and it's like you have completely lost elevator authority- nothing happens. Smashed onto the runway !

I would not have liked to be in the situation the crew found itself. Flare and Recovery Training was on a 320 sim and what is the level of fidelity when compared to a 321? TOGA 10 offering no guarantees and the 321 is a pig in certain landing scenarios.

[drfaust]

This entire thread just makes me sad. I wish our fellow colleagues all the best in what must be a difficult time for all of them.

And to any of you that are ready with the knives out, try not to be a pack of c***s. It only reflects poorly on your character.

[ZFT]

I would not have liked to be in the situation the crew found itself. Flare and Recovery Training was on a 320 sim and what is the level of fidelity when compared to a 321? TOGA 10 offering no guarantees and the 321 is a pig in certain landing scenarios.

The Airbus training policy of only supplying FSTD data for a single aircraft type within each aircraft family (with classroom differences training) does not help operating crews. The A321 is probably the most extreme example.

[gerago]

You guys are alway quick to go for a kill if some Chinese or Korean or Indon. So this must one of your kind for you guys to be so ever gentle and protective. Hypocrisy at its best. Kahaha just gave you chaps a healthy dose.

[MENELAUS]

For the love of God Gerago. I haven't insulted an Indon in ages.
This is an unfortunate incident; there for the grace of God goes all of us, and I feel
nothing but sympathy for the poor bastards.
And where has the ethnicity ( or gender ) of either crewmember been alluded to. ?
Nowhere as far as I can see. And had it been it would have been wholly irrelevant.
Don't be a c""t all your life. Take the odd day off. ( Nice qweiloh phrase for you ). And,further, the only worry is, frankly, that you and your prejudices occupy the same bit of airspace as I do occasionally.

[Krone]

There are perhaps 3 senarios inplay here:
1) The FO bounced the plane and then touchdown with a very nose high , low energy state. Perhaps -15 below Vapp. Tailstrike.

2) The FO bounced and the Captain took over. Then as above , tried to arrest the sink rate with a very nose high pitch . Tailstrike.

3) The Captain took over at some stage and ultimately failed to initiate the missed approach and his none SOP actions caused the subsiquent tail strike .

Of note is the fact the FO was a former long time 330 operator new to the 321. He had recently missed out on command. A reason the commander should have had his thumb on the red take over button?

As mentioned above , the captain is a senior instructor.
As also mentioned , its fairly normal in ka for instructors to bark and holler in simulators. Arrogance prevails from the instructors seat . De briefs dwell on splitting of hairs and minor errors on a sim check .
FOs are scapegoats for the errors of their captains.

When an instructor in KA is responisble , whether they are well respected or otherwise, its only natural for the silent majority to quietly smirk and think , time to swollow your own medicine.

Ultimately this accident will be brushed under the blanket of incidents that KA contiune to get away with. Recent events inc the 2.8G landing, where ultimately a manager flew back from Penang at FL150 , gear down were never really mentioned in the safety review. How much fuel did that cost? Conviently not mentioned .
And then there was the emergency breach of the FTLs last year by the management pilots wife. Result, nothing . She continues to ply her trade and continues to exhibit fuel compromies. Most local FOs will not fly with her.

Will there ever be a true and level playing field in KA for the regular line pilots? Unlikely. Very unlikly.

[lexxie747]

Very off topic,although some of the comments warrants suspicion@ mr Globocnik, are you by any chance related to this individual? Granted, the name is a very common name, same as lets say john smith, so please forgive my inquisitiveness.

Odilo Lotario Globocnik[2] or Odilo Lothar Ludwig Globocnik,[3] also Germanised as Globotschnig(g)[4] (21 April 1904 – 31 May 1945), nicknamed Globus,[5] was a prominent Austrian Nazi and later an SS leader. As associate of Adolf Eichmann, he had a leading role in Operation Reinhard, which saw the murder of over one million mostly Polish Jews during the Holocaust in Nazi extermination camps Majdanek, Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.[6][7][8] Historian Michael Allen described him as "the vilest individual in the vilest organization ever known".

Im having a problem with the term vilest organization ever known, surely cathay was founded after the war, or am i :} missing something?

[Oasis]

Sh1t always has flowed downstream.

[MENELAUS]

Isn't Wikipedia a wonderful thing ? Course I'm related to him.

[lexxie747]

wiki is a wonderfull thing, however the name actually struck me first, and then i went wiki just to confirm my memory.
Gnade der späten Geburt comes to mind.

[MENELAUS]

Helmut Kohl ? A great and good man, sadly missed. As was Adenauer. My choice of moniker has very little to do with regard for those scum that once stalked the earth. Quite the opposite.
Anyway, we've hijacked the thread quite enough.
Jedem das sein. Another phrase the f@ckrs hijacked for their own ends.

[TheGreenDragon]

Few comments from the usual ranters here.
Seems one of their " respected honourable bloody good trainer" matey types may be in the deep sh1t.

There were 3 pilots , who was doing what though ????

[McNugget]

I love that this thread has turned from a potential discussion where we could perhaps all take a point away with us; to accusing someone as being part of the SS.

Well done, boys.

And you wonder what is to come...

[MENELAUS]

An in depth discussion about einsatz kommando ?

[Dan Winterland]

There are perhaps 3 senarios inplay here:

1) The FO bounced the plane and then touchdown with a very nose high , low energy state. Perhaps -15 below Vapp. Tailstrike.

2) The FO bounced and the Captain took over. Then as above , tried to arrest the sink rate with a very nose high pitch . Tailstrike.

3) The Captain took over at some stage and ultimately failed to initiate the missed approach and his none SOP actions caused the subsiquent tail strike .



There are plenty of other scenarios, equally plausible. Why do all of yours apportion blame to the crew?

[Gnadenburg]

There are plenty of other scenarios, equally plausible. Why do all of yours apportion blame to the crew?

Was wondering about this too Dan ? Perhaps because it's now a Nazi thread ?

[drfaust]

The funny thing is, reading the preliminary findings it looks like the guys have nothing to be blamed for.

But of course people would only know that if they actually worked in the place instead of ranting against it on pprune.

[TheGreenDragon]

On the contary. The updated findings quotes SOP proceedures requiring the PM to be alert for unstable attitudes, to call out any significant deviations , and to go around if necessary.

Of note is that there was a hard landing and subsequent bounce and second landing striking the tail. Its possible the first hard landing dislodged some of the flight control computers causing a flight control anomaly .

Ironically , the trainer acting as PM teaches the UPRT ( upset and recovery) in the sim to pilots on their recent checks. It appears he may not have acted ideally when presented with his real life upset requiring recovery.

Company is trying to blame Airbus. This should be interesting. More to come. ...

[drfaust]

What have you been smoking? I'm not going to take the bait. You go on and have a nice life whilst I wait for the actual investigation results to be published.

Over and out.

[Krone]

From the safety report, the FO ( local guy) initiated a go around when the "pitch pitch"
warning sounded. The Training captain (not local) took over and subsiquently failed to control the situation and caused the tail strike. Dubious decision at best which I'm sure he regrets.

Who takes over and lands when a go around has initiated by the PF? Remember Qantas in BKK? I mean what are the sky gods smoking these days?

[Staggers]

If it transpires the crew acted appropriately or were faced with circumstances that could not be reasonably expected to occur......
That the people on this forum who want to apportion blame without evidence (guilty until proven innocent?) will have the decency to post an apology.
I for one am heartily sick of pilots sitting in judgement of their peers when they were not there nor are in full possesion of the facts.
If management judged crews in the same manner I can only imagine the howls of protest.

[MENELAUS]

Hear hear Staggers.

[Gnadenburg]

That the people on this forum who want to apportion blame without evidence (guilty until proven innocent?) will have the decency to post an apology

Well Krone has already stated his position, he would have gone around.

What if it comes out the aircraft was malfunctioning? The "accused", is safely on the ground with a scrape. Krone could be in a low level go around with no elevator control. :eek:

[pfvspnf]

So sad to see everyone becoming an accident investigator and laughing at others when things like this happen . Last minute instructor takeover is never easy peasy, let's try and learn from each other

[kahaha]

I remember the "us n them" at KA. Trainers: untouchable , bipolar and irrational with their mindless obsessive compulsive disorders regarding the none essentials.
The 0645 check in. The back slapping and moaning about how hard they are working.
Mate, im on 103 hours its killing me . Oh, but hows the OT then ? Ah mate 85k but id rather not be so busy. And all this nonsense infront of a poor single striper whos earning less than half the trainers OT in a month. But do they resign and go back to the line? To hell they do. Privileged rosters, wispering into eleanors ear. Pleeeese give me that duty so I can get off on leave. Please give me that late start and kick that line skipper off that flight. And then theres the joking in the pub, loud talk in public places of DB or Sai Kung , berating some guy for all to hear.

Which brings me to my point about the above incident. The training department in KA have created so much animosity and hatred among the rank and file that when an incident happens to one of the sky gods its only natural the common local and reg expats look on with glee. Not nice. Not respectful. Just human nature.

Now im off back to my purile flights . Enjoy China boys. ��

[Oval3Holer]

What, in this case, was the action or statement made by the FO to "initiate the go-around?"

[LIKE.HKA]

kahaha

Do you have ICAO Level 3 English standard?

[aussie-metal-head]

Very off topic,although some of the comments warrants suspicion@ mr Globocnik, are you by any chance related to this individual? Granted, the name is a very common name, same as lets say john smith, so please forgive my inquisitiveness.

Odilo Lotario Globocnik[2] or Odilo Lothar Ludwig Globocnik,[3] also Germanised as Globotschnig(g)[4] (21 April 1904 – 31 May 1945), nicknamed Globus,[5] was a prominent Austrian Nazi and later an SS leader. As associate of Adolf Eichmann, he had a leading role in Operation Reinhard, which saw the murder of over one million mostly Polish Jews during the Holocaust in Nazi extermination camps Majdanek, Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.[6][7][8] Historian Michael Allen described him as "the vilest individual in the vilest organization ever known".

Im having a problem with the term vilest organization ever known, surely cathay was founded after the war, or am i :} missing something?

Wow, you are very good at researching people's ancestry. Interesting...I'd only be impressed it you could do your entire family tree.