SEP revalidation 7 weeks after expiration

[TomTomClub]

Hello guyz

The EASA rule says, the pilot has to prove 12 h incl training flight with FI, everything done during the last 12 months before expire date of the ratings.

I have a confirmation from the EASA, that there is intentionally NO requirement that the revalidation itself has to be made within the same period. It can be 5 weeks after expiration date or even 4,5 month.

One of the reasons is, that the pilot has the right do do all of 12 hours within 12 months.....that means he may do the 12 th in the last evening before expiration. So we can take the 12 months rule seriously.

My ratings expired and I applied 3 month after, because I was looking like crazy for an approved FI who could revalidate by exp. . I gave up after 2 months.

NOW, the CAA does not want to confirm what the EASA officers confirm :{
So, the want me to do some refreshing hours plus prof check.

What is your experience? Do I really have to meet an lawyer in european airlaw?


thx for an advice

TomTom
(Switzerland)

[Whopity]

The UK CAA is applying the regulation as written
FCL.740 Validity and renewal of class and type ratings
(a) The period of validity of class and type ratings shall be 1 year, except for single-pilot single-engine class ratings, for which the period of validity shall be 2 years, Therefore at the end of the 2 year period if not revalidated, the rating has expired.(b) Renewal. If a class or type rating has expired, the applicant shall:
(1) take refresher training at an ATO, when necessary to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant class or type of aircraft; and
(2) pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to this Part.
How can EASA interpret that differently?

[TomTomClub]

thx
Of course they are expired. So let them expire.....why not. You think, you need a renewal now (?).
But you just fulfilled the requirement of your 12 hours perfectly within the 12 months.. This is the only requirement to hold the right of revalidation in ur hand. You are not yet a candidate for a renewal. You are a candidate for revalidation. A candidate for a renewal cannot prove the 12 h, done within the 12 months before expiration. Do you see the point? Most nations follow this EASA rule, but a couple dont.

TomTom

[foxmoth]

(1) take refresher training at an ATO, when necessary (my underlining)

Certainly as an instructor I was told I should not be signing unless it was priot to expiration. Should not really need any training if you are current.

[TomTomClub]

can be you were told....but the legal basis is missing, if you take a look at the EASA rule

Just supposed, your rating is good from 1. January to 31. December....and you have the right to prove 12 h within these 12 months. Then logically your last flight may be on the 31.Dec.
Wether you think, the revalidation must be done within the validity, then your time period to prove your 12 h is how long? Do you guess it is 7 months in reality? Or is it nine, or even 10,5 months? The Easa says, it is full 12 months.

Hey...I am fighting :) Often there is a difference between beeing right and getting the right judgement

[Whopity]

So let them expire.....why not. You think, you need a renewal now (?). FCL.010 does"Revalidation" (of, e.g. a rating or certificate) means the administrative action taken within the period of validity of a rating or certificate which allows the holder to continue to exercise the privileges of a rating or certificate for a further specified period consequent upon the fulfilment of specified requirements. If it has lapsed, expired, was not revalidated within the period of validity, then:"Renewal" (of, e.g. a rating or certificate) means the administrative action taken after a rating or certificate has lapsed for the purpose of renewing the privileges of the rating or certificate for a further specified period consequent upon the fulfilment of specified requirements.

[TomTomClub]

Thank you
I am lookin like crazy for the sentence "means the administrive action taken within the period of validity..."
The sentence "If it has lapsed, expired, was not revalidated within the period of validity, then:" seems to be your own sentence, isnt it?

Pls, do me the favour and show me the link. FCL.010 ist a list of abbreviations. I know this list.

TomTom

[MrAverage]

Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with the way the regulations are written or not, your rating has lapsed. You need an LPC to renew it!

[TomTomClub]

@MrAverage
well, I am asking for facts and an official easa document. Some points of view are nice to read.

If a police officer keeps your driver licence, you probably wanna check the legal basis written in an offical document instead of his oral opinion.
No ? Would you accept his point of view without checking the law? Come on--> you would not :)))

I dont wanna seem rude, but Im for sure very emotional for 3 days :(

Thanx so far guyz...I ll let you know how I get forward with the CAA

TomTom

[Mustapha Cuppa]

well, I am asking for facts and an official easa document. Some points of view are nice to read.

It is open to you to go onto the EASA website and download and view all relevant EU reguations and EASA documents,

FCL.010 ist a list of abbreviations. I know this list.

You clearly have not read FCL.010.

[TomTomClub]

@ Mustapha
all I can find is this:

[Mustapha Cuppa]

That is not FCL.010. It is GM1 FCL.010 (guidance material)

You need to look at the regulation, not the guidance material.

I'll give you a clue. The regulation is Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011.

[Whopity]

Part FCL (https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/Part-FCL.pdf) Page 20

[S-Works]

The EASA "officers" have guided you incorrectly. It is also down to the NAA to interpret the regulation. The UK CAA have interpreted and made a decision. Game over, do an LPC.

[hobbit1983]

TomTomClub,

After two months of being told 'no, you need an LPC' (I assume) by FIs, and being told the same on here, prehaps you might consider that it's not a point of view, it's regs.

Unfortunately you've missed the window. You'll need to do an LPC, as bose says....

[S-Works]

He is being told it by at least 4 Instructors and 3 of us Examiners to my knowledge......

You cant beat a barrack room lawyer....... ;)

[huv]

Just phoned my Danish CAA on the subject. The answer (my translation): "If the FCL.740.A (b)(1) conditions were met on the day of expiry, of course no problem. Come by and I'll put the new SEP rating date in your certificate right away."
This has to my knowledge been practiced here since the JAR days before EASA Part-FCL, and sensibly still works.

[S-Works]

Each NAA can interpret the regulation as they see fit. They have to justify it to the EASA audit team at audit time.

The UK CAA have made a decision on how they interpret this and not matter how many other CAAs you quote doing things differently it will not change the response from the UK. My understanding of the OPs post is that he is dealing with the UK CAA or maybe another that interprets it the same way. So its game over, LPC is required.

[PaulisHome]

Without for a moment disagreeing with the advice on this thread....

I can't think of a good reason why the CAA should take the position that they have - that is why it is a good thing to insist on a test if the revalidation isn't signed off within the period. Can anyone enlighten me?

If there is no good reason, then maybe it would be a good idea to lobby the CAA to change their position on this - if it's down to the NAA.

Paul

[S-Works]

Flying with an invalid document?

Let's assume the rating has expired, you fly to another country, get ramp checked, how do you prove you are legal to fly?

We get ramped checked all the time at work. The people checking are generally customs, they are not there to be experts on Licencing regulations, they are to check all your documents are valid and in date. The do that simply by checking the date. Let's see you get smart arguing a point with a French customs officer that you are legal but just did not bother to get a required signature...... ;)

[huv]

Flying with an invalid document?

I understood the question differently.
I think the question was: Can you revalidate? and not: Can you fly?

[hobbit1983]

And the answer (despite asking the Danish CAA, looking at EASA regs, and asking FIs) is;

You can do neither with the UK CAA.

It's not exactly an onerous requirement and not exactly a secret either....

[PaulisHome]

I understood the question differently.
I think the question was: Can you revalidate? and not: Can you fly?

....You can do neither with the UK CAA.

That's correct. Clearly you shouldn't fly, but is there a reason why you shouldn't revalidate? I just can't see one.

Paul

[MrAverage]

Ok. Let's create an example. Bloggs didn't fly at all in the first year, then did his 12hours etc. etc. in the first 3 months of the second year. How much longer than the end of the second year would you suggest he should be able to revalidate without an LPC? Before answering I would respectfully suggest you consider the fact he would be putting the rest of us at greater and greater risk the longer your chosen period is. A line has to be drawn somewhere and I feel the authorities are being too generous already.

[foxmoth]

Ok. Let's create an example. Bloggs didn't fly at all in the first year, then did his 12hours etc. etc. in the first 3 months of the second year. How much longer than the end of the second year would you suggest he should be able to revalidate without an LPC?

I can see the OPs point - you could get it signed "in date" and do exactly the same flying as in your example no matter how long you left it beyond the second year, but the UK CAA are interpreting it in one way and the Danish differently - if you don't like the way the UK does it go to Denmark and get it signed there - it will of course probabaly cost more to get the flights to get it signed than an LPC in the UK.

[S-Works]

Except the Danish CAA can't sign a U.K. Licence.....

[Cirrussy]

I sympathise with your predicament, Tom Tom, and hadn't really thought about it like that until you mentioned it. If you've done the hours and flight with an instructor within the period, revalidation after the expiry date (within a reasonable time frame) sounds sensible to me.

[hobbit1983]

That's correct. Clearly you shouldn't fly, but is there a reason why you shouldn't revalidate? I just can't see one.

Paul
Cos thems the rules, unfortunately!

[PaulisHome]

Ok. Let's create an example. Bloggs didn't fly at all in the first year, then did his 12hours etc. etc. in the first 3 months of the second year. How much longer than the end of the second year would you suggest he should be able to revalidate without an LPC?

...revalidation after the expiry date (within a reasonable time frame) sounds sensible to me.


Providing revalidating after expiry adds no more time to the next revalidation period (ie it runs from the old expiry, not the new revalidation), then when the signature is obtained makes no difference to Blogg's flying safety.

Cos thems the rules, unfortunately!

Yes, indeed. I'm just suggesting that it's an unfortunate interpretation of the EASA regulation.

I'll declare an interest having once missed one of the very many dates I seem to have to keep track of flying three classes of aircraft across two licenses. The result was unnecessarily complicated.

Paul

[hobbit1983]

Isn't it the same as the old JAR regs, though?

(honestly can't remember)

[TomTomClub]

Hey guyz

Thanks to the guyz supporting me. Also thanks to the guyz who changed some arguments against my hope to get the new ratings.

BUT:

in fact....I have them revalidated now.

You wanna now why?
Cause I met the requirements. And the date when I apply for the revalidation is not part of the requirements.

Take a look:

Dear Mr xxxxxxxxxxxxx,

Please excuse the long time for answering your request below.

As already explained to you on the phone, the administrative procedure for revalidation of ratings is not detailed in Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 and therefore up to the Member States. However, we contacted the UK CAA who indicated that your particular case will be reviewed again as a result. In this context, you are invited to contact Mr. XXXXXXXXX from UK CAA to receive further information on this review.

We hope this helps.

Best regards

Christian Kucher
FCL Regulations Officer
European Aviation Safety Agency


Postal:Postfach 10 12 53, 50452 Cologne, Germany
An agency of the European Union

�� Move to new EASA Headquarters!
As of 6th June 2016 we will be operating from our new Headquarters located at:
Konrad-Adenauer-Ufer 3; D-50668 Cologne (more info (https://www.easa.europa.eu/can-we-help-you#we-are-moving))


After all, I would say that every case is different. You have a good chance to get your "delayed" ratings if there is a history of long discussions, irritations and very late answers (in this case from the CAA) to receive a chance of a serious review (by CAA & EASA). My story began a couple of weeks before exparation date. Maybe that helped.

Happy landings
TomTomClub

[MrAverage]

Proverbial can of just got opened..................

[Level Attitude]

This is just so wrong!

Revalidations and Renewals do not just happen by magic, it is up to the Licence Holder (Pilot) to apply for them.

After any successful Licence Proficiency Check, the Examiner would, undoubtedly, just complete the process for the Candidate automatically.

However, for SEP Revalidation by Experience, the Licence Holder must apply to an authorised person for the actual Revalidation: CAA Representative, any FE, or the specific individual FI who carried out the required 1 Hour Dual Flight.

The OP is correct that:
that the pilot has the right do do all of 12 hours within 12months.....that means he may do the 12 th in the last evening before expirationHowever, meeting the requirements is not Revalidation, which is defined as “the administrative action” – ie completing the paperwork.

So any Licence Holder needs to also plan, and allow the time, for this and, by definition, if the administrative action is not carried out during the current validity of a Rating then IT IS NOT a Revalidation.

ANNEX I [PART-FCL] SUBPART A GENERAL REQUIREMENTS

FCL.010 Definitions
For the purposes of this Part, the following definitions apply:

‘Revalidation’(of, e.g. a rating or certificate) means the administrative action taken within the period of validity of a rating or certificate which allows the holder to continue to exercise the privileges of a rating or certificate for a further specified period consequent upon the fulfilment of specified requirements.The OP says he went to many FIs to try and get his “Revalidation” signed, but none of them would have been able to even if within the timeframe as, unless they had flown the DUAL Flight with him, they would not be authorised to do so.

The OP was wrong to try and challenge this but, even more worrying as they are going against their own definitions, EASA were wrong to allow this.

[TomTomClub]

so, what do you think is the reason behind the rule you are believing in?? Do you think it is for safety reasons to make sure the Pilot applies in time (before exp. ?) Just to avoid this guy wastes 19 month with sending the forms&logbook out? Just to avoid he doe not get rusty?
As long as he/she doesnt apply for the rev. and have them finally revalidated he is Not allowed to get airborne. Right?

From the second year on, the watch is ticking. He s got 12 month to prove the 12 h. But he is not allowed yet to fly :( .

So what? Thats why the aviation authorities of several countries decide from case to case and are flexible (you call it magic).

My impression from the discussions with the EASA and especially with the CAA is:

The are not happy with some details. The have more troubles with the current details. And I think they made their experiences over the last couple of years.
I was told that some details in regulations are not "smoothies" and not practicable and some changes are taking place soon. Cause neither the CAA nor the EASA wanna make us angry.

Back to the definitions in 1178/2011

The EASA declared in 2 mails that the defintion how a reval. and a renewal in case of a SEP rating differs, is just an example to make it easier to understand what the words mean. It is NOT a regulation for revalidations of SEP ratings. Cause a fixed regulation is written in a more professional form.
And several nations expected to have the right for their very own national ways how to handle some administrative details.

From this point of view the document 1178/2011 makes sense.


Last point .
The CAA takes now 9 weeks to revalidate a rating (and they r def. not lazy). When do u want me to apply then? How many month do you allow me to fly my 12 h ?
You r thinking now, the timestamp of my FedEx envelope is the key? Pls show me that rule :*

I am feeling sad for those pilot who lost their ratings in a similar way.
Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant now. Maybe you can imagine that I m just happy now. Hoping my sadness disappears soon.

TomTom

[BEagle]

Trying to decipher this gibberish, it seems that the UK CAA has only agreed to 'review' the case of an applicant who failed to get his SEP Class Rating revalidation signature before the expiry date stated in the Certificate of Revalidation.

[TomTomClub]

@ BEagle
you think the examiner just could nt find a pen? No :p

Im from Stockholm. It is not easy anymore to find an approved examiner. Rules have changed. Pilots from Croatia (for ex.) yet do not know of the (CAA)changes.
Communication could be better.

[custardpsc]

TTC - I would like to understand this a little better. Do I have this correct: It seems that you flew 12h and did a flight with an instructor, before expiry but that the instructor himself was not able to sign for the revalidation directly onto your licence. Presumably this was because he was just a regular instructor not "an examiner holding a valid UK issued Part-FCL examiner certificate or a Flight Instructor with the privileges of FCL.945."

So you find yourself with the requirements met, but not able to find the correct level of instructor to sign the revalidation, and also you were not able to send off the notification form to the CAA either.

So, after expiry you could not fly, but had met the requirements prior to expiry, just lacking the final signature / actual revalidation.

It would seem sensible that when you did find a person qualified to sign it, that the rating was then re-validated with a renewal date in line with what would have happened if it had been signed before expiry date. It would seem that some national authorities have this pragmatism and some don't. Or in EASA - speak "the administrative procedure for revalidation of ratings is not detailed in Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 and therefore up to the Member States."
BUT
EASA also does say " "Revalidation" (of, e.g. a rating or certificate) means the administrative action taken within the period of validity of a rating or certificate which allows the holder to continue to exercise the privileges of a rating or certificate for a further specified period consequent upon the fulfilment of specified requirements." (https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/Part-FCL.pdf page 21) which does suggest that you need to get it all done including signature before it expires.

BUT - the real answer isn't EASA, It is the UK ANO. and that states ( my red ink)

The Air Navigation Order 2016 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/765/schedule/8/made)

Issue of certificate of revalidation

2. Except in the case of holders of a Private Pilot’s Licence (Balloons and Airships), a certificate of revalidation must be issued where any of the requirements for revalidation or renewal in the tables in paragraph 1 have been met.

Form of certificate of revalidation

3. A certificate of revalidation must be signed by a person authorised by the CAA to sign certificates of this kind and certify—

(a)the functions to which the certificate relates;
(b)the date on which it was signed;
(c)that on the date on which the certificate was signed the relevant requirements for revalidation or renewal in the tables in paragraph 1 have been met;
(d)where the relevant requirements for revalidation or renewal in the tables in paragraph 1 involve—
(i)the gaining of experience, the type or types of aircraft in which the experience was gained;
(ii)the taking of a test or proficiency check, the type of aircraft or flight simulator in or by means of which the test was conducted.

So , on the date which you could actually get the certificate signed, you had to have met all of the requirements. And the person signing should put that days date and sign it, with expiry date 24 months from the previous expiry.

So I would say that you were technically correct. But no authorised instructor is going to sign it like that and risk a problem, as I am guessing you already found out. Which is why you are now arguing legal opinion with the CAA, Please do keep us posted as to how you get on...

[Heston]

Given the amount of time and energy that TTC seems to be spending on this, I'd have thought it would be easier just to do what's needed rather than arguing.
But that's just me, anything for a simple life.

[BEagle]

FCL.945 privileges may not be exercised by an FI for a pilot whose SOLI is different to that of the FI - EASA has confirmed that.

Of course the CAA 'review' may simply reply "We've considered your case and have decided that your Rating must be renewed by flying an LPC with an Examiner"....

[Contacttower]

BUT - the real answer isn't EASA, It is the UK ANO. and that states ( my red ink)

Assuming we are talking about an EASA licence, then the UK ANO has nothing to do with it. It has no legal relevance to the maintenance of EASA licences, only national ones issued under the ANO. Part-FCL is the applicable regulation for EASA licences.

[TomTomClub]

@Heston
I felt from beginning somethin is wrong here. So I felt I ll get my ratings. In the same way I can feel in the beginning of a tennis match that I will win (or I wont lose).

I m not th guy to give up so early. EASA and CAA have enough chaos and problems with a couple of rules. So I knew I have a chance.

If a police officer just kept my driver licence with a very "thin" reason , I d call my lawer to do ANYTHING to get it back..
I would not begin at once with a refresher course and accept a new skill test just cause it is easier.

TomTom

(too sad that no one answers my question how many months I have for my 12h flight time and how to send the forms to the CAA before exp. date if I do my last flight just 1 day before expir. date. In Swedish it is called "this 12 months rule is not "round"))

[TomTomClub]

Just to remind you, guyz

6 Countries do revalidate without prof checks if the requirements were met in time. Cause they focus on the sense behind