VFR over water?

[Flyingcope]

Im just about to begin my PPL I have 12 previous hours from a few years ago that was given free to me.

I had a thought that id like to go cross channel when I do finish the PPL. A while off yet but its an idea I've had for a while. I was wondering what the limits were on flying VFR over water like the channel?

[A and C]

No limits on VFR over water but the English Channel can get a bit haze that makes the horizon difficult to see, an extra hour or so with an instructor brushing up the instrument flying to a point that you can hold good straight & level flight may well be a good idea if you are going to fly all but the shortest route across the water.

[ChickenHouse]

The aircraft does not know and does not care being over whatsoever. "Visual" over water is just a bit boring - looking down at water water water ship water water water ... No problems flying over the channel and the former restrictions, mainly uncomfortable altitudes for crossing, have been eliminated anyways. Do the first crossing together with a fellow pilot having done that before, so you get an introduction on radio communication procedures needed (principles with position reports, border crossing, mid-channel reports are quite similar to ocean crossing, so a nice further education).

[Mike Flynn]

I agree with Chickenhouse.

The route from Berry Head to the Channel Islands is easy these days with GPS.

When I first flew to Guernsey in 1981 it was just dead reckoning.

The run to the Channel Islands still offers duty free fuel,cheap flying and a nice weekend trip.

[Jan Olieslagers]

The aircraft does not know and does not care being over whatsoever.

Indeed. Which means one should have a plan B over water just like over land. For example, against the case the frontside ventilator suddenly stops.

[terry holloway]

Quite right, the engine doesn't know it's over water but sometimes they do stop! Therefore you need to read up on water "landing" technique and be dressed to survive. That includes a lifelacket and a dingy is a good idea. However, now I have mentioned a dingy, a number of people will tell you how difficult it is to get the dingy out of the aeroplane, and not to bother with one! They are right : it would be difficult but I always fly with one for long over water trips, and if the sea temperature is less than 16c I will always wear an immersion suit.

[piperboy84]

.. No problems flying over the channel and the former restrictions, mainly uncomfortable altitudes for crossing, have been eliminated anyways.

When did that happen, what are the new rules?

As for a PPL making the long crossings, as said above get some straight and level training. Twice on the Weymouth to Jersey crossing with good VFR forecast I couldn't see a damned thing thru the sea mist apart from the odd glimpse of the whitecaps.

A few years back I was talking to an ex BA captain from Belfast who flew his RV regularly across the water to Scotland, me being a novice asked him what he thought the best crossing altitude was. He was of the firm opinion that no more than 200 AMSL was his preferred height because if the engine quits he did not want to endure the long period of time it took gliding down from say 8000 while running the bitter recriminations and regrets about life including cursing his ex wives and girlfriends over and over while dawdling along at best glide. He'd much prefer going straight into the drink and be done with it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

No limits on VFR over water but the English Channel can get a bit haze that makes the horizon difficult to see, an extra hour or so with an instructor brushing up the instrument flying to a point that you can hold good straight & level flight may well be a good idea if you are going to fly all but the shortest route across the water.
Agreed. Over sea haze, it's much better for everything but lookout to act as if you're in cloud: fly by reference to instruments, just keep alternating between that and a heads-out lookout - which does need a good degree of cockpit discipline, but is perfectly achievable by any reasonably current PPL.

G

[terry holloway]

When did that happen, what are the new rules?

As for a PPL making the long crossings, as said above get some straight and level training. Twice on the Weymouth to Jersey crossing with good VFR forecast I couldn't see a damned thing thru the sea mist apart from the odd glimpse of the whitecaps.

A few years back I was talking to an ex BA captain from Belfast who flew his RV regularly across the water to Scotland, me being a novice asked him what he thought the best crossing altitude was. He was of the firm opinion that no more than 200 AMSL was his preferred height because if the engine quits he did not want to endure the long period of time it took gliding down from say 8000 while running the bitter recriminations and regrets about life including cursing his ex wives and girlfriends over and over while dawdling along at best glide. He'd much prefer going straight into the drink and be done with it.
A long time ago! There used to be a low level VFR corridor from Dover to Cap Gis Nez at 1,500 ft ( I think!). In the 60s there was a lightship on the route! However these days one flies in the open FIR outside of controlled airspace, which means higher altitudes are available. That said, there are a lot of miiliary danger zones in the wider bit of the channel and a radio call is needed to cross them. Occasionally they say no so sufficient fuel is needed for detours!

[piperboy84]

Occasionally they say no so sufficient fuel is needed for detours!

Lord don't I know that one, I had a hurried departure from Cherbourg with no internet connection to file a plan and ended up circling mid channel south of the military zone for 45 minutes in the pissing rain trying to figure out plan B because the zones were active and crossing them was refused. Ended up doing a huge detour back to the southwest skirting between the Islands and mil zones and reaching land near a place called Dunkswell for a unplanned landing in Swansea for the evening. A one hour crossing ended up a two and a half hour magical mystery tour! All ended well, the plane performed beautifully and the natives of SW Wales do enjoy a piss up.

[ETOPS]

Flyingcope

Hope you have picked up some useful tips :ok:

Don't forget to listen for that slight (but recognisable) change in engine note..............2 miles after passing the coast :eek:

[Talkdownman]

A long time ago! There used to be a low level VFR corridor from Dover to Cap Gis Nez at 1,500 ft ( I think!). In the 60s there was a lightship on the route!
Hythe-Ambleteuse, via the Varne Lightship, at 1500 on the 'Channel QNH...! Nostalgia ain't wot it used to be...

[ak7274]

Flyingcope

Hope you have picked up some useful tips :ok:

Don't forget to listen for that slight (but recognisable) change in engine note..............2 miles after passing the coast :eek:

I used to hear that too.

Then I realised that on coasting out,as I looked over my shoulder to check I had indeed coasted out, the Headset cable was taught against my shoulder and pulled the earpiece away from my ear. It never sounded the same when I tried to adjust it.;)

[terry holloway]

What none of us have said clearly enough to the thread starter, is that it's not that difficult and it's great fun to fly into and around Europe!!

[The Old Fat One]

op,

Be advised when revising your ditching drills (which if you don't do, Darwin has control) that many articles you will find on t'internet on sea survival are not written by survival instructors, they are frequently written by well meaning, but often misguided amateurs.

A quick crash course (no pun intended)

the principles of survival are (in strict priority order):

protection
location
water
food

Sea survival wise you can forget water and food, you will be dead long before they are a factor. (unless you are planning on crossing the open ocean).

Protection means, protection from drowning - a proper well fitted, serviceable life preserver is a must (if not carried, Darwin has control...)

Following on, protection means protection from the cold. On average you will die in 30 minutes to two hours in UK waters from hypothermia in the winter months, but be aware your body parts, specifically your hands will be useless in after just 10 minutes or so. An immersion suit will extend this time, a modern dinghy will extend it for more than long enough to get rescued...ASSUMING...

Location. Nobody mentioned it above ( I rest my case). IF YOU DON'T GET OUT A MAYDAY, YOU WILL ONE LUCKY BOY TO SURVIVE. A acknowledged mayday with an accurate position will ensure someone will get to you promptly. No mayday...its in the lap of the gods. However, a modern locator beacon may get the job done as well....but **** it, get a mayday out!!!

Location. A modern locator beacon will again, massively enhance your chances of survival.

Bottom line, most pilots can ditch successfully and stats prove that. Regrettably most (private) pilots then perish in the sea and stats prove that too.

No skills, no kit...Darwin has control.

Hope you learnt something.

PS

Don't be tempted to fly low level over the oggin...them sea birds make a right mess of your face.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Quite right, the engine doesn't know it's over water but sometimes they do stop! Therefore you need to read up on water "landing" technique and be dressed to survive.
... or believe the book figures that say that if you take the shortest crossing and scrape along the bottom of CAS you're never out of gliding reach of land.

(And it's not always looking at water and ships - on my first crossing I saw neither, as the channel between the cliffs at each side was filled with fog.)

[terry holloway]

op,

Be advised when revising your ditching drills (which if you don't do, Darwin has control) that many articles you will find on t'internet on sea survival are not written by survival instructors, they are frequently written by well meaning, but often misguided amateurs.


There is a very good and professionally written Sea Survivlal document issued by GASCo.
I don't think the even better RAF documents are available outside of the military.

[Chuck Glider]

Regarding the concern about engines over open water, I read long ago that many engine problems arise when something is changed so I have always adjusted settings and made whatever checks I thought appropriate before coasting out and then tried to fly a steady course to my landfall. So far so good.

'Automatic rough' over water is, of course, nonsense but I have found that the air tends to be relatively smooth and non-turbulent on sea crossings so perhaps the engine note may be more apparent in the relative calm, giving rise to the idea but mostly I think it's nervousness from being out of one's comfort zone.

The channel short crossing to Cap Gris Nez, which I imagine would be your initiation to the business, is relatively short and is probably quite busy with sea traffic. There are longer sea crossings available within the UK much less frequented by shipping below and they can feel quite lonely.

[custardpsc]

why wait to finish your ppl? nothing to stop you doing this as dual cross country...

[Talkdownman]

why wait to finish your ppl? nothing to stop you doing this as dual cross country...
Good idea. A rental agency will probably require that a first cross-channel flight be undertaken dual, so you might as well get their wish out of the way.

(Personally I don't see much difference between cross-country and cross-water, but it's part of the rental business I suppose...)

[terry holloway]

Regarding the concern about engines over open water, I read long ago that many engine problems arise when something is changed so I have always adjusted settings and made whatever checks I thought appropriate before coasting out and then tried to fly a steady course to my landfall. So far so good.

'Automatic rough' over water is, of course, nonsense but I have found that the air tends to be relatively smooth and non-turbulent on sea crossings so perhaps the engine note may be more apparent in the relative calm, giving rise to the idea but mostly I think it's nervousness from being out of one's comfort zone.

The channel short crossing to Cap Gris Nez, which I imagine would be your initiation to the business, is relatively short and is probably quite busy with sea traffic. There are longer sea crossings available within the UK much less frequented by shipping below and they can feel quite lonely.
I regularly need to change tanks on long overwater trips and my heart always races when I do so!
However, some long distance flyers routinely and deliberately empty tanks in order to use all the contents, and when they do so the silence must be deafening!

[Sam Rutherford]

I'm currently flying back-forth about 5 times a month - it's all very easy. I try to go at around 6000ft which means that there is only an extremely short period during which I cannot glide to some sort of strip on one side or the other...

[GASCo]

GASCo is running a Ditching & Sea Survival Seminar at the RNLI College on Tuesday 21st March 2017 starting at 1000 hours and finishing by 1700 hours. There are some places left so if you would like to join us please get in touch asap to register. Full details and application form can be found at:

ditching & sea survival seminar (http://www.gasco.org.uk/seminars/ditching_and_sea_survival.aspx)

There are presentations about pre-flight preparation and considerations on how to handle a ditching emergency together with many practical tips; advice on surviving a ditching; sea survival and choice of survival aids. The theory sessions are followed by a practical session in the state-of-the-art facilities of the RNLI’s integrated Sea Survival Centre, where real-life conditions and rescue operations will be simulated to give you essential practical experience in sea safety and survival techniques using typical GA lifesaving equipment and realistic water conditions. Participants are closely supervised throughout by the in-water team of highly competent RNLI trainers and lifesavers.

The seminar will reinforce the excellent points made by all the posters here especially The Old Fat Man whose advice is right on the money. All equipment is provided but you are encouraged to bring your own survival suits, lifejackets and dinghies if you wish to try them out in representative conditions.

GASCo is a charity and the seminar is not run for profit so I trust that I am not breaching PPRUNE advertising rules by promoting the seminar here.

[tmmorris]

Can't make this one but is there a future date I could book? (Can't get out of work at that sort of notice sadly.)

[BackPacker]

Having been to a similar course in the Netherlands a few years ago, I can highly recommend this. Heck, if I lived any closer I would've gone to this one as a refresher - especially since they offer the opportunity to try out your own gear.

[Downwind Lander]

why wait to finish your ppl? nothing to stop you doing this as dual cross country...

That depends on your instructor. He or she may say that estimating height by eye is harder over water (ask a display pilot) and that much of the object of the exercise is navigation by map reading with reference to the ground and a map. It is almost a pity to waste the opportunity.

[GASCo]

Can't make this one but is there a future date I could book? (Can't get out of work at that sort of notice sadly.)
Yes of course. We are finding it quite difficult to get space at the RNLI College at the moment due to RNLI internal training requirements which is the reason why there wasn't much notice for this seminar. If you call Penny in the GASCo office on 01634 200 203 or email her at [email protected], she'll put your name down for the next one.

[tmmorris]

Thanks, I've emailed.

[Ebbie 2003]

Don't know what all the fuss is about.

Yes, you have to take precautions - for me that means life jacket, a raft and a personal PLB.

Always amuses me when I hear of pilots saying "I now have 200 hours and think I'm ready for Lydd to Le Touquet" you can see the French runway from 4,000ft over Lydd on a clear day!

95% of my flying is over the ocean (I'm a PPL and live in Barbados) we have no helicopters to come get us and yup, sharks!

My first post check ride cross country was New Jersey to Barbados - longest over water leg Antigua to Barbados about 350 miles - if the engine keeps running no problems so one needs to have a adequately maintained machine.

As it happens my airplane is up in Florida at the moment (FXE) and I'll be flying it back down in the next couple of weeks after a massive rebuild and refurb (new everything and I mean everything except the basic structure and engine block). I am a lot more worried now than I was when it looked ready for the scrap heap - will I fall foul of the bathtub curve I wonder?

[cotterpot]

Sea temp 23 deg C in Florida and higher in Barbados don't quite compare to the 8 deg in English Channel/North Sea

[Sam Rutherford]

Or the -1C of Greenland! :-)

[felixflyer]

One thing I would add to the list of gear is a snorkel. I have one attached to my jacket.

Anyone that spends time bobbing about in the Channel whilst scuba diving will know that in a bit of chop it can be hard to breath without taking on water. Divers use their regs or a snorkel when on the surface for that reason.

[rolling20]

The English Channel: Having done some 10+ crossings in singles and twins, my advice would be to pick the shortest point, lifejacket on, try and keep an eye down below for shipping, if the prop stops, ditch as near as poss to a ship,smaller the better. When you do ditch, harness tight and be prepared for a sudden stop. Open the door before impact and don't forget it should float for a short while, so don't panic!

[tmmorris]

First aid course last week: the instructor (ex RAF) pointed out how essential a spray hood is on a life jacket to avoid inhaling water. Snorkel would do as a mod on a jacket not equipped with a hood I guess.

[Ebbie 2003]

Yep.

The water off Florida is low 20's and the coast guard helicopter will come get you - but try that 150 miles SE of Antigua - no helicopter is coming even if they know where you are the cutter won't get to you in under a day so you are spending at least one night out there.

Even at 23C exposure is going to get you.

Channel has more ships etc. crossing and laterally you're going to get picked up.

I have been thinking of investing in a survival suit but the hot and sweaty during the flight (my plane is Ok in the air - but 40C+ during the taxi even with the door open and the air scoop) and it making it cumbersome to exit in the event of a water landing puts me off the idea; I do have a SpareAir though and being a diver know how to use it properly.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

The English Channel: Having done some 10+ crossings in singles and twins, my advice would be to pick the shortest point, lifejacket on, try and keep an eye down below for shipping, if the prop stops, ditch as near as poss to a ship,smaller the better. When you do ditch, harness tight and be prepared for a sudden stop. Open the door before impact and don't forget it should float for a short while, so don't panic!

Try getting some time in. I flew off-shore helicopters for 12 years (8 000) hours and more sectors than I care to remember. I ditched north of Aberdeen in 13+ degree water. The cold was shattering. Along with the shock and the violence of the impact and the jammed emergency exits I was f***ing grateful to see the surface again, despite being seriously contaminated by jet fuel. The crew and passengers on that aircraft underwent annual survival training and all of us agreed afterwards that the escape drills went to utter rats**t, Once out of the aircraft we reverted to the survival training we had been taught.

We were picked up after 25 mins in the water, all suffering from different degrees of hypothermia and poisoning from the fuel that surrounded us. Yeah, it'll float, but it may be upside down, and if it's a PA28 I doubt it.

Most light FW get their windscreens smashed by the impact on the water and that's what stops you getting the dinghy and the other kit on your freezing, bruised, shocked and terrified way out of the wreck. Your kids are in the back seat? I bet you forget them in the struggle, and stamp on the the wife sitting next to you as you go out of the one small, and awkward door.

I've done at least another 1000 off shore sectors since that. I've flown 19 solo, single engine Atlantic crossings, 200 multi-engine, multi-crew crossings. I respect over water more than most. Survival training is valuable, experience will show you the truth. But no engine knows it's over water. Go do it. If it goes wrong save me a seat on a Gypsy Moth shaped cloud.

There. Is a lot of theory on the web; grab the fact and knowledge while you can.

SND

[Capt Kremmen]

Could someone remind me as to approximately how many moving parts there are in a piston aero engine ?

[Jan Olieslagers]

A lot.
Why?

[Capt Kremmen]

Here's a clue. It's something to do with flying over water single engined.

[Jan Olieslagers]

The opening question mentions no engines, could even be about gliding (though I do not think that was meant).

[rolling20]

Try getting some time in. I flew off-shore helicopters for 12 years (8 000) hours and more sectors than I care to remember. I ditched north of Aberdeen in 13+ degree water. The cold was shattering. Along with the shock and the violence of the impact and the jammed emergency exits I was f***ing grateful to see the surface again, despite being seriously contaminated by jet fuel. The crew and passengers on that aircraft underwent annual survival training and all of us agreed afterwards that the escape drills went to utter rats**t, Once out of the aircraft we reverted to the survival training we had been taught.

We were picked up after 25 mins in the water, all suffering from different degrees of hypothermia and poisoning from the fuel that surrounded us. Yeah, it'll float, but it may be upside down, and if it's a PA28 I doubt it.

Most light FW get their windscreens smashed by the impact on the water and that's what stops you getting the dinghy and the other kit on your freezing, bruised, shocked and terrified way out of the wreck. Your kids are in the back seat? I bet you forget them in the struggle, and stamp on the the wife sitting next to you as you go out of the one small, and awkward door.

I've done at least another 1000 off shore sectors since that. I've flown 19 solo, single engine Atlantic crossings, 200 multi-engine, multi-crew crossings. I respect over water more than most. Survival training is valuable, experience will show you the truth. But no engine knows it's over water. Go do it. If it goes wrong save me a seat on a Gypsy Moth shaped cloud.

There. Is a lot of theory on the web; grab the fact and knowledge while you can.

SND
People like you make Pprune worthwhile. In my military time I learned a lot from listening to people and understanding their experiences and how it could be used for future reference. In flying you never stop learning, no matter how old you are or experienced and you take that advice in good grace. Fortunately I have been able to pass some of this on to younger less experienced pilots. Never have I lauded it up over them or derided their inexperience. One can only assume you were or still are the playground bully. I am grateful I shall never have to share a cockpit with you as your CRM is non existent.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Rolling20;

Re-reading with the benefit of self not containing a bottle of Rioja it does come over badly:\

But, from that experience came some good changes to the safety equipment we used then, and it has continued to improve in that sphere of ops since. Most light aircraft do lose their screens on impact and the front seaters get the bow wave, freezing cold full in the chest. The aircraft will usually float for a short time, but the tank vents eventually let the water in, the engine is mighty heavy and drags the aircraft under, speeding the loss of bouyancy.

I do believe that GA does get a bit hung up about single engine over water, I'd be more worried about an engine failure over forest or mountainous terrain. There are always going to be accidents/failures, but if we really assessed the risk in our every day lives we'd never get out of bed. In the UK we live on a small island and while I love flying around it I enjoy exploring different places and there is a lot of pleasure to be had getting there by air in my own time rather than by the timetable of a Gatwick LoCo.

I apologise if I came over as arrogant, but I learned the hard way that day that even the very best training is just that. Its' good, but no substitute for experience.

On a practical note, when I fly SE over water I always carry a STAS unit like the ones issued to the off-shore passengers. In the cold of my ditching I nearly drowned as I tried not to gasp for air. The STAS bottle I carry contains enough air for 5 minutes and allows the desperate breathing that the cold demands of the body. The theory being that once you have escaped you will be breathing surface air and can gasp all you need until you calm yourself into survival mode.

If the water temp is below 15 degrees I wear an immersion suit as well as carrying a dinghy and wearing a life jacket, and the jacket has a spray hood. In training I found spray hoods horribly claustrophobic, but in the real event I was really grateful for it as it broke any waves that were splashing into my face. A sea survival course at thr RGIT, Aberdeen or PTANS Lowestoft is not cheap, but it may just make the critical difference between smiling and waving at a winchman, or greeting him with arms fixed outstretched staring into eternity.

In GA we'll spend £200 going for a burger on a Sunday, when we could spend £200 going for stunning moule frittes on Dieppe harbour, maybe one £200 burger could be a survival course?

Not a great performance from a CRMI!

SND

[FullWings]

The opening question mentions no engines, could even be about gliding (though I do not think that was meant).
I’ve gone across the Channel in a glider about five times. Technically, mine can leave Dover at a little over 2,000’ and still make the other side. Practically, I get as high as I can (4-5,000’) before setting off...

[Sam Rutherford]

Which means you could cross at 1000' and still be in range of land at all times...

[rolling20]

Rolling20;

Re-reading with the benefit of self not containing a bottle of Rioja it does come over badly:\

But, from that experience came some good changes to the safety equipment we used then, and it has continued to improve in that sphere of ops since. Most light aircraft do lose their screens on impact and the front seaters get the bow wave, freezing cold full in the chest. The aircraft will usually float for a short time, but the tank vents eventually let the water in, the engine is mighty heavy and drags the aircraft under, speeding the loss of bouyancy.

I do believe that GA does get a bit hung up about single engine over water, I'd be more worried about an engine failure over forest or mountainous terrain. There are always going to be accidents/failures, but if we really assessed the risk in our every day lives we'd never get out of bed. In the UK we live on a small island and while I love flying around it I enjoy exploring different places and there is a lot of pleasure to be had getting there by air in my own time rather than by the timetable of a Gatwick LoCo.

I apologise if I came over as arrogant, but I learned the hard way that day that even the very best training is just that. Its' good, but no substitute for experience.

On a practical note, when I fly SE over water I always carry a STAS unit like the ones issued to the off-shore passengers. In the cold of my ditching I nearly drowned as I tried not to gasp for air. The STAS bottle I carry contains enough air for 5 minutes and allows the desperate breathing that the cold demands of the body. The theory being that once you have escaped you will be breathing surface air and can gasp all you need until you calm yourself into survival mode.

If the water temp is below 15 degrees I wear an immersion suit as well as carrying a dinghy and wearing a life jacket, and the jacket has a spray hood. In training I found spray hoods horribly claustrophobic, but in the real event I was really grateful for it as it broke any waves that were splashing into my face. A sea survival course at thr RGIT, Aberdeen or PTANS Lowestoft is not cheap, but it may just make the critical difference between smiling and waving at a winchman, or greeting him with arms fixed outstretched staring into eternity.

In GA we'll spend £200 going for a burger on a Sunday, when we could spend £200 going for stunning moule frittes on Dieppe harbour, maybe one £200 burger could be a survival course?

Not a great performance from a CRMI!

SND
No problem and apology appreciated, as are you thoughts on here. We can all learn from each other, no matter how little or how much experience we have.

[Jan Olieslagers]

@Sir Niall: do not be over-concerned about style. But what do you mean by a STAS unit and a STAS bottle ??

[hoodie]

STAS (or STASS, as the UK military call it) is Short Term Air Supply System.

That is, a small compressed air supply and integrated mouthpiece, regulator and purge all of which is small enough to be mounted on a lifejacket.

In the US, similar systems are marketed as "SpareAir" and are also available in Europe I've just found.

Looks like this:

https://www.aerosafe.co.uk/acatalog/SPAREAirbreakingsurface(300x226).jpg

If carried, you should definitely get some training as there are potential health hazards with mis-use; e.g. embolisms etc.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Exactly as hoodie says. I'm so used to the thing I forget it's not very well known.

SND