Type ratings in the US - foreign citizen [Archive]

mattpilot

9th Jul 2002, 06:49

It is my understanding that new regulations have been put into place were foreign citizens can no longer receive training for a type rating in the USA for a large aircraft or turbine/jet powered aircraft. That correct?

That effectively put a lid on my career.

That is, if its true. The only exception is, or so i understand, that you already own a type rating.

Question.

I think it costs an average of 20.000,- USD for a type rating here in the US. Right? How much do they cost in Europe? I was thinking of getting a type rating in a Fairchild Metro 23 or a bigger King Air type or so, one that is very cheap to operate (maybe you have some suggestions). Or maybe just do one in a simulator. Should be fairly cheap also. That is, as soon as i'm that far in my training. But i like to think ahead :)

Anyhow, lets say i have a US issued Certificate. Can i even take that certificate and go to Europe and train for a rating, or do i have to have local certificates issued by the local regulating body?

How does that work?

Thanks for any input!

foghorn

9th Jul 2002, 09:32

£10,000 - £22,000 (US$15,000 - US$35,000) depending on type and provider for a JAA type rating in the UK. The low end of that range for small turboprops, the upper end for B737 etc. This includes aircraft rental for the base training touch and gos.

You must have a JAR CPL/IR with ATPL theory passes and an MCC to get a JAR type rating. Conversion from FAA is not an insubstantial undertaking (both in cost and time)

Note in this context the term 'certificate' is rarely used outside the US - 'licence' or 'license' is used instead.

Have you thought about Canada or Oz?

hope this helps.
cheers!
foggy.

Freak On A Leash

9th Jul 2002, 10:54

Mattpilot,
Foreign pilots can still get typed in the US provided they pass the FBI`s screening process.Last I heard (and this is a few months back) the screening process took about 45 days.If I`m not mistaken (again this is slightly dated info) the applicant has to provide the training facility various information about him-/herself and the facility sends this info through to the Department of Justice and the FBI - then you get to wait.Things might be moving along at a quicker pace nowadays though.Also heard something about that the training has to be under an approved part 142 curriculm, meaning you can`t just put some cash on their front desk to buy a couple of hours in the sim... and we all know why:mad:

With regards to already typed pilots there is really no problem at all.This is a good thing with regards to recurrent training and such so they can keep the costs down (compared to Europe).

I still haven`t found any info about groundschool alone (typerating courses), so I guess there aren`t any restrictions on those since you`re just learning systems - not actually maneuvering the aircraft.

If you`re thinking about obtaining a license outside of the US I think foghorn is on the right track.Allthough the JAA license is accepted "everywhere" it is also a major hassle to get.The Oz licenses are a lot quicker to get - and cheaper.The same with regards to the Canadian ones.Just keep in mind that the FAA certificates aren`t accepted everywhere (though validations are possible) since they are not "Straight" ICAO licenses (too many differences)...and most of the other countries accept each others ICAO licenses (sometimes the only requirement for a conversion between 2 ICAO licenses is an written exam in Rules & Regulations).

Hope this helps you out!

mattpilot

9th Jul 2002, 16:15

Yes that helps out alot! Thanks!

@fog - sounds like i'd spend a whole fortune again just to obtain JAA licenses - i hope freak is right.

Canada? Hmm, basicly anything thats cheap would work. Oz? Whats that? Sounds like the prison series :)

@freak - I hope your right - having such a lid over my head would of killed me

I'm just curious though were you got your information? I would like to read up on it and/or keep myself updated on this subject.

**edit - nevermind - i found this thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59076

thanks!

redsnail

9th Jul 2002, 23:05

Oz used to be a prison sentence for the original white inhabitants.
Other wise known as Australia. :D

inverted flatspin

10th Jul 2002, 00:06

Freak, ICAO came into being because of the Chicago convention and the last time I checked Chicago is in the US. FAA certificates are fully ICAO compliant in fact most countries around the world try to emulate the FAA system.

foghorn

10th Jul 2002, 08:46

FAA certificates are ICAO-compliant licences, however most countries tend to try to abide by ICAO rather than the US directly. There are significant differences between ICAO and the FAA licensing system in some areas.

The fact that Chicago is in the US is immaterial to the workings of ICAO and its conventions and annexes, as it's an international body, however the US's position as the premier country for aviation lends it a lot of clout.

The UK automatically recognises any ICAO-compliant licence (private or commercial) as a full private licence conferring the aircraft/rating priveleges of the original licence, with the exception that an ICAO Instrument Rating is recognised as a UK IMC rating, not a full IR (therefore higher approach minima and no class A IFR allowed).

Don't know about the licence recoginition position of the other European countries as foreign licence recognition is a matter for national legislation, not the pan-European JAA. Based upon history and attitude to regulation on the continent I would speculate that other European countries would be more restrictive than the UK regarding this.

However if you want the full Commercial privileges here, you have to go through the costly conversion process to JAA. This sticks in some people's throats as it is seen to be a barrier to free movement of labour. Oddly enough the vitriol regarding this is usually rained on the UK (rather than the JAA who make the rules, usually influenced by the habitually more restrictive JAA nations on the continent), probably because many of the people wanting to convert to JAA are Australians/South Africans/New Zealanders with British ancestry (therefore can easily get work permits).

Slightly off-topic ramble, but thought I'd put it here for information purposes, as there's often a lot of emotive rubbish spouted on pprune regarding licence conversion in Europe.

cheers!
foggy.

MLS-12D

16th Jul 2002, 21:56

As Foghorn says, in most of the world one earns a pilot "license". I'm not sure why the USA prefers "certificate".

It's interesting to note that the 1919 Paris Convention (Article 12 and 13) and the 1944 Chicago Convention (Articles 32 and 33) speak of both "licenses" and "certificates of competency", so I guess neither term is more correct than the other.

I do deplore the US term "certificated", which is a ridiculous non-word. :mad: What's wrong with good old "certified"? It's kind of like the headset manufacturers' double-talk about noise "attenuation"; who speaks like that?

MLS-12D

P.S. On a related note, I wish the USA would refrain from refeering to all flight instructors as "CFIs", which should be reserved for CHIEF flying instructors only.

erjdriver

16th Jul 2002, 23:28

Yes, foreign pilots can be typed. Exactly as Freak said. My employer (a US regional airlines), sent me a "release of information" paper for the FBI (I'm still an Italian citizen).

An FAA is an ICAO license. Period. In order to work in other countries, such license must be either validated or converted. In some countries (ex. Emirates) it's an easy process, whereas in other (European countries) it' a BIG pain the the a$$.

The reason the FAA uses certificates instead of licenses is that certificates do NOT need to be reniewed.

PEACE

GoneWest

17th Jul 2002, 03:15

I was speaking earlier this week to "the powers that be" about the 45 day rule.

The response was that the "idea" of making the rule was still an idea - an answer should be forthcoming sometime within the next three months - the training schools are legally prohibited from offering initial type ratings to any non US citizen in the meantime.

Best case date to be accepted by a school for an initail type rating was "tomorrow", worst case was "late October".

Pitts S2B

29th Jul 2002, 20:58

Here it is all 30 pages.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/020729fsdo.pdf

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

worzel

29th Jul 2002, 21:35

Call me lazy, but if someone could just pick the highlights out and post them I'd be grateful.:D

worzel

Left Wing Down

30th Jul 2002, 00:04

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60273&pagenumber=2

This is the latest info from the FAA website http://registry.faa.gov/airmen.asp
specifically: http://registry.faa.gov/airmen.asp#Verify

"Verification of Authenticity of Foreign License, Rating, and Medical Certification

Effective July 23, 2002, persons applying for a certificate issued on the basis of a foreign license under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 61, Section 61.75, using a pilot certificate issued under 61.75 to apply for a commercial pilot certificate under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 61, Section 61.123 (h) or applying for an airline transport pilot certificate issued under the provisions of 14 CFR, Part 61. Section 61.153 (d) (3) must have the validity and currency of the foreign license and medical certificate or endorsement verified by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) that issued those certificates, before making application for an FAA certificate.

You may complete the Verification of Authenticity of Foreign License, Rating, and Medical Certification form (http://registry.faa.gov/docs/verify61-75.pdf) and FAX or mail it to the Airmen Certification Branch, AFS-760. When verification is received from the CAA, you will receive written notification that a copy has been forwarded to the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) you designated in your request. A listing of FSDO (http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/fsdo/index.cfm) locations and telephone numbers is available from our customer services menu.

The verification is valid for 60 days. You may make application for a 61.75 certificate issued on the basis of your foreign license or an airline transport pilot certificate at the designated FSDO during that 60 day period. If you prefer to write a letter, it must contain all of the information shown on the form.

Mailing Address: FAA
Airmen Certification Branch, AFS-760
PO Box 25082
Oklahoma City, OK 73125-0082
FAX number: (405) 954-4105"

Seems like it's up to your home country CAA now... :)

bumpfich

2nd Aug 2002, 10:20

From AOPA ePilot Vol 4 Issue 31.

BACKGROUND CHECKS NOW REQUIRED FOR SOME FOREIGN PILOTS
The FAA has issued a new procedure that requires all foreign pilots to submit to background checks before the agency will issue a U.S. private pilot certificate based on a pilot license issued by another country. The new regulations lift an emergency suspension imposed just over a week ago because
of national security concerns, which barred the FAA from issuing pilot certificates to foreign pilots. See
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/02-3-053x.html

no sponsor

9th Aug 2002, 09:32

Where can I find confirmation that it has been lifted? The link given referes only to the ban.

ETOPS773

9th Aug 2002, 10:18

http://registry.faa.gov/docs/verify61-75.pdf is what you need

no sponsor

9th Aug 2002, 11:05

It looks like I was mistaken. The ban related to any certificates being issued. The new systems to obtain an FAA licence based on your ICAO licence, requires you need to fill out a series of forms, send them to Oklahoma, wait 60 days while verification takes place, and then you'll get a licence sent to you in the post.

This relies on all CAAs arround the globe cooperating with the FAA, and I hear that this could be a problem. I don't know where that leaves everyone. Presumably, it will be almost impossible to achieve?

weasil

16th Jul 2003, 22:18

Click here for the FAA Foreign Pilot Verification Form (http://registry.faa.gov/docs/verify61-75.pdf)

You also need to contact the UK Aviation Authority if you are from the UK to complete this process.

Sheep Guts

17th Jul 2003, 03:13

Ok is this form for people who have allready been issued an FAA Certificate from a foreighn licence in the past?
Or is it just for newbies about to do Training in the US.

I am asking if I would need to fill this in prior to getting a Type over 12,500lbs?

Regards
sheeep

SunNFun

17th Jul 2003, 07:06

Ok is this form for people who have allready been issued an FAA Certificate from a foreighn licence in the past?
Or is it just for newbies about to do Training in the US.

You need this for the first time to get a FAA restricted License plus every time you add a rating to your restricted FAA PPL, i.e. IFR, ME etc.

I am asking if I would need to fill this in prior to getting a Type over 12,500lbs?

That's a whole different animal, check https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/

hth,
sun'n fun :cool:

weasil

19th Jul 2003, 06:41

THis is the form to do any initial training based on a foreign pilot's license (converting to FAA). To do training on heavy a/c (>12500lbs) is an entirely different procedure. Your company has to contact the US DOJ for procedures. (Dept. Of Justice)

Warped Factor

24th Sep 2004, 13:48

....and charge you $130 for the privilege.

Not sure if this has been mentioned here before, but it's due to start later next month apparently.

See this (http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2004/040923tsa.html) from AOPA.

WF.

0-8

24th Sep 2004, 15:52

Here is a bit more info from the AOPA site:

“The new rule requires every school and every freelance flight instructor to register with TSA. It puts the onus on the flight school and individual flight instructors to determine if a flight student is a foreign national. If so, the school or flight instructor must notify TSA that a non-U.S. citizen has requested flight training.

For a foreign national to receive training in an aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds, the school or flight instructor must send TSA a photo of the student after he or she first arrives for training. The student has to send TSA passport and visa data, fingerprints, and training details, among other things. In an illustration of the confusion over the rule, the student also must supply a "unique identification number assigned by TSA." TSA will charge the student $130 to process the application.

Training in aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds can start without TSA approval, as long as TSA has been notified and sent the applicant's information. Of course, if TSA determines the student is a threat, training must stop.

The rules requires that schools or flight instructors retain applicant information and TSA approval records for five years, and the records are subject to TSA audit.

awareness training program" for each flight school or independent flight instructor, regardless of whether they are training foreign students. Schools must maintain a record of such training for one year after the employee leaves the school. It doesn't say how long independent instructors have to keep records of their security training. Again, these records are subject to TSA and FAA audit.

Flight schools and instructors have to comply with the new rule starting October 5 for training in large aircraft, October 20 for training in aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds.”

daw

24th Sep 2004, 16:08

Isn't this a case of the left hand not talking to the right? Wouldn't "foreign" students already have gone through background checks (including visits to the US Embassy in their home country) prior to getting their visas to train in the US anyway? Seems just a revenue earning exercise.

NACGS

24th Sep 2004, 18:02

After a comprehensive review, AOPA is raising concerns that the Transportation Security Administration's "alien training" rule .MAY hit every U.S. pilot, flight instructor, and flight school. Unless TSA clarifies that U.S. citizens are exempt, AOPA believes the rule could be interpreted to mean that, starting next month, they would not be able to complete flight training — including flight reviews — without first going through some type of TSA check

........
......
.......
the last paragraph sums it all up....

TSA is requiring all flight instructors and flight schools to register through their local flight standards district office (FSDO). But TSA apparently hasn't yet coordinated that with the FAA.

"We don't think TSA appreciates the enormity of that task, particularly with the very short time frame," said Boyer. "There are more than 86,000 flight instructors in the U.S."

Instructors and schools also have to undergo TSA-approved recurrent "security awareness" training and maintain documentation of that training. And all required documentation is subject to TSA audit. (See "TSA issues alien training rule.")

"We'll continue to work with TSA to ensure that the rule does not apply to U.S. citizens," said Boyer.

Shall we place bets that it doesnt come into effect in its current form????

iflysims

24th Sep 2004, 21:35

How do you guys feel about this? Will this affect your decission to do flight training in the US? Just wondering if that is just another reason not to train in the US?

mattpilot

26th Sep 2004, 02:18

what about those that are already doing training in the US as foreigners? Will we have to stop come Oct 20th and wait for our "TSA ID #" ?

cfimei

2nd Oct 2004, 23:45

Latest update from AOPA (USA):

AOPA President Phil Boyer has gone straight to the top to stop implementation of the Transportation Security Administration's "alien" flight-training rule.

"In my almost three years of working with TSA, I have never seen such an impractical idea," Boyer told TSA chief Adm. David Stone Thursday morning. "I implore you to delay implementation of this rule to give us the opportunity to work with you to bring sanity to it and help you accomplish your security goals."

The phone call prompted an unscheduled meeting between AOPA Senior Vice President of Government and Technical Affairs Andy Cebula, AOPA General Counsel John Yodice, and senior TSA policy officials.

AOPA has already filed a formal petition to suspend the October compliance date for training in aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or less (see "AOPA petitions to suspend parts of TSA alien training rule"), while Yodice has submitted a five-page letter to TSA's chief counsel seeking clarification and explanations and justifications for the rule's specifics.

"Frankly, I don't believe that TSA understands the flight training industry for small general aviation aircraft, and particularly independent, freelance flight instructors," said Boyer. "What might work for training in aircraft over 12,500 pounds doesn't work for the majority of the GA fleet. One size doesn't fit all."

The rule directly affects more than 650,000 U.S.-certificated pilots, 85,000 resident aliens with U.S. pilot certificates, 93,700 flight students, 88,700 flight instructors, and some 3,400 flight schools.

As currently written, the rule requires every student and certificated pilot to prove his or her citizenship status prior to taking any kind of flight training, including flight reviews. Flight instructors are required to keep copies of pilots' personal information (which could include social security cards, birth certificates, or passports) for five years.

"Many pilots consider this an insult. Our members are incensed about the privacy aspects of this rule," said Boyer. "Many have told us that requiring flight instructors to maintain permanent files filled with personal pilot information is not only inappropriate, it would have a chilling effect on people seeking flight training.

B2N2

12th Nov 2004, 17:57

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...
As far as I know these are the latest rulings:

Visa Procedures

How do you obtain a Student Visa?

You will request from your school a I-20 form, that they will prepare and send to you. At that time you will be required to pay $100.00 for the issuance of the I-20. You can pay online at www.fmjfee.com

You will then need to make an appointment at the US Embassy and take the I-20 form and proof of payment for approval. At that time they will take your picture for their records.

Alien Flight Training Rules

With the new rules in place from the TSA (Transportation Security Administration), schools must follow more stricter rules and guidelines in order to ensure everyones safety.

To whom TSA rules apply:

All aliens/foreigners who apply for training.

Now, what is considered "training"?

What is training? – training that a candidate could use toward a new airman certificate or rating. These rules do not apply for US citizens. Therefore the flight school has to obtain proof of US citizenship (U.S. birth certificate or U.S. passport)

Until December 19th 2004 all aliens/foreigners are exempt who:

* currently hold a FAA airman certificate
currently hold a certificate of a foreign national authority that is recognized by the FAA
* There is no change for aliens/foreigners or U.S. citizens if they seek recurrent training.

So, NO backgroundcheck is required if you come to the USA for:

* BFR (Biennial Flight Review)
* IPC (Instrument Proficiency Check)
* Rental checkout
* Aircraft rental
* Hour building

Upon arrival at the flight school

Upon arrival to the school you will need to have your picture taken, you must register online at the school. You will need to be fingerprinted by the local sheriff on site at the airport for the completion of this investigation. There may or may not be a charge for the fingerprinting depending on location. The fingerprints only need to be done once for them to confirm your identity.

Items needed for background check

In order to complete the background process there is a fee of $130.00 that will be paid at the school to the TSA. You will need to have your Visa, Passport, addresses for the last 5 years along with phone numbers.

You also need to have an email address so that TSA can email the password for you to access the site. If you do not have one, anybody can help you set up a free account.

Further info on:

http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/
and
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/

Hope this clarifies it some.
PM or email for more info....:ok:

Martin1234

12th Nov 2004, 19:53

I'm glad to see that the US establish procedures which are in the favour of the European training industry! When are we supposed to start taking fingerprints from US citizens that want to enter the EU?

Ninety-Nines

12th Nov 2004, 21:51

Don't worry Martin 1234, it is not just the Europeans that are getting checked out......in the US now, due to the TSA ruling, all US citizens have to provide proof of citizenship before renting/training.

US Pilots are not too happy with the situation either. One pilot came in today, when asked for a copy of his birth certificate/passport told me that he would go back to another airfield 10 miles away that did not require this information! I then suggested to him that shooting the school trying to do it right and going to a school that does not really makes the whole system even worse.

In hindsight, as long as we all do what we need to now I feel that APOA will soon weigh in with a simpler solution in the (hopefully) not too distance future.

Martin1234

12th Nov 2004, 22:55

Well, the "TSA rules" only apply to US citizens in order to establish that they really are US citizens and need not to go through the process B2N2 posted. I know you represent a school with lots of students from Europe, but saying that the regulation is "getting at their own citizens too", isn't that a little naive?

I know that you might be opposed to this regulation, but as a European I think that there should be some sort of mutuality. It's pretty steep if a student is going to the US to commence training at a school registered under the UK CAA, getting fingerprinted and all that.. just to risk being thrown out of the country without reason half-way through training.

Ninety-Nines

13th Nov 2004, 13:05

All I am saying is that it is getting their own citizens rallied up having to prove their own citizenship in their own country. Would you not think that you were being scrutinized if you had to prove your citizenship when visiting your local flying club?

As for being thrown out half way through......as long as you are the person that turned up and all the info is basically the same as on the visa application then there is no problem. Some questions requiring dates even have a box to tick whether this is an exact answer or approximate.

Is the system a pain and over the top - Yes
Does it make more work for everyone - Yes

The only students/renters that are really affected are the ones training towards a licence....they have to spend 15-20 mins filling out a web site form and paying $130.00. We have been completing the process for the past 3 weeks at the school and it is running smoothly. For those that have been applying since the law we have been having them fill out the form after giving instructions in their enrollment; there have been no problems as it is more or less the same info as the immigration forms.

Once completed, our students visit the local sherrifs aviation dept on the field for another 20 mins for fingerprinting.

As for renters, they are exempt all of this - the school just completes 2 minute form on line about them.

I can say that laying the process out in a strightforward manner has not deterred any people from my personal view of enrolling candidates in the last 3 weeks.

B2N2

20th Nov 2004, 03:34

It's not as tricky as it seems, it is pretty much a paperwork excersise. No different then anything else in that regard.
Put up the original post to (maybe) clarify the issue.
Wether it is right or wrong, usefull or totally useless..well, I leave that in the middle for now.
The main thing is that it is not as draconian as it seemed in the beginning.

onebounce

29th Nov 2004, 18:38

But for those simply wanting PPL training, the real issue is that only M1 issuing schools can provide the visa form and therefore the training - thereby locking out all the smaller US schools from providing the "first rung on the ladder" training.

Good news for the big schools, income stream lost for the small ones.

B2N2

29th Nov 2004, 18:56

Well One bounce,
That has been the case ever since 9-11.
Before no visa was required for PPl training.
They changed that pretty soon afterward.
All in all about 275-300 schools went bancrupt as a straight result of 9-11.

However, I think the surviving "small"
schools are doing pretty well right now with the uplift in aviation in the US

bumpfich

16th Dec 2004, 13:48

Having lived in a bubble for the past couple of months. OK - so in reality I've been out of the country (UK) and having moved house and not had internet connection for some time.

I have a couple of questions, if anyone can help me (background first):

- I travel to the US on Jan 2nd to commence CPL training on Jan 10th.
- I already have an M1 Visa (issued on Oct 18th)
- I have an FAA Airmans Certificate (based on my UK PPL), issued several years ago.

So it seems from December 19th I will need to comply with these new TSA rules.

- Should I complete the on-line registration in the UK (on/after 19th December)? Or MUST this be done at the school? I am concerned that I may not have all the necessary detailed history information at my fingertips when I am out of the UK.
- I understand applicants can only have their fingerprints done in the US. So I assume this part will have to wait until I arrive. It appears that it is taking some 2-3 weeks to "process" the application once the fingerprints are received. How will this impact my CPL training that starts on Jan 10th?

I appreciate any assistance fellow ppruner's can provide me.

Thanks (and happy christmas)

bumpfich

Naples Air Center, Inc.

16th Dec 2004, 18:32

bumpfich,

You can register online while in the UK or when you arrive in the US, but we recommend registering before coming over to the US.

You can get more details in this thread:

TSA Training Rule (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147463)

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

dpm

17th Dec 2004, 08:54

bumpfich,

The TSA business is far less painful than you might imagine. You might as well register on the TSA website and do as much as you can now (the first step involves the information that you mention) and get it out of the way; the only hassle is that you'll need to scan or fax your passport and visa. Once the first step is out of the way, it all runs quickly and smoothly.

Since you're going to Naples, I can let you know my experience there: everyone is flexible and accommodating with the TSA arrangements there, so it won't hold up your training at all. In particular, the local deputy sheriff who does the fingerprinting (for free I might add) is a nice bloke. So don't worry, get out there and do your flying!!!!

Cheerio, dpm