G650 ER real range

[lear60fellow]

Hi all, can someone advise of real maximum range on G650 ER? I mean real numbers not the ones published on testing by Gulfstream

[fleigle]

Why would you not want to believe the numbers quoted by Gulfstream??.
Do you think that they would lie?.
Do you think that if they did lie that pilots and operators would not have publicised that lie?
There are enough of them flying worldwide now now that it should be easily verified.
Go to Flightaware, find a G650 or two and track their flight history, it should be fairly easily determined what their range is.
Gulfstream are well known to be very accurate in their actual claims.

[FlyMD]

I have it from the horse's mouth that a 7'200 NM trip was made with all necessary reserves and 5 people on board with a G650, without the ER STC.

If you fly the speeds as published, Gulfstreams tend to overperform the published figures. Be careful to consider ALL factors of your flight (Load, Temperatures en route, available flight levels, etc...) before committing to a figure...

I have done 6490 air miles myself with an older G5, 4 people on board.. The reason we had almost 3'000lbs on board at landing was that we had consistent ISA -15 over the whole route, were able to get some non-standard intermediate levels, and flew consistent LRC. Had we done optimum climb and descent profiles for fuel we could have saved another 200-300 lbs.

[Soave_Pilot]

Go to Flightaware, find a G650 or two and track their flight history, it should be fairly easily determined what their range is.

??? You tell the guy to believe Gulfstream's numbers, then you advise him on going to Flightaware to find them out? Pick a side.

[fl610]

I have not flown the G650/650ER, however I do have a lot of experience in G11, GIV, GV and G550. Without exception they have all exceeded the range of the published figures, admittedly some not by very much but still better than some other manufacturers products that I have flown that have not even come close to meeting their published figures.

[fleigle]

Soave,
If you look at historical flights for any aircraft type and past flights then you will see actual distances flown, flight times, and whatever.
Seriously, check it out and then come back at me.
f

[galaxy flyer]

I don't doubt its range, my question is who wants to be cooped up in a tube for 16 hours? What about inflight rest for four pilots? I've done 12.6 in a Global and that's two hours two much.

GF

[Lucky8888]

Flights over 10 hours in our 650ER's have a relief crew on-board. We include that in our Ops manual.

[Lucky8888]

We usually get "book" or better range on our 650ER's

[galaxy flyer]

But, at 12 hours aloft, the commercial standard (91K,135,121, foreign rules for NCC ops) is four pilots. We put a third pilot on when 10 or hours, but try sleeping across from the galley. The business just isn't big enough.

GF

[TowerDog]

. But, at 12 hours aloft, the commercial standard (91K,135,121, foreign rules for NCC ops) is four pilots. We put a third pilot on when 10 or hours, but try sleeping across from the galley. The business just isn't big enough.


What is across from the galley?
Not proper crew rest facilities on a 14-16 hr jet?
Can't use a pax lay-flat seat with a curtain?

(Just curious, never flown a biz-jet, but lots of long-haul Boeings)

[galaxy flyer]

In both the Global and the GLF, the crew rest area, either lie-down or reclining seat are opposite the galley--noise, smells, F/A shuffling around. There us only an acoustic curtain to separate the two. Remember the "tube" is about 8" narrower than a -9, too. The pax area is just that--the pax area, not yours, usually. There just isn't a lot of floor/volume to out anything like a Boeing crew rest area. And, it's a 16-hour plus jet.

GF

[TowerDog]

2 bunks behind a curtain across from the galley?
Yeah, guess we are spoiled on the Boeings, especially the 747 freighters.
Bunch of bunks and 1-class seats in the upper deck area.
Big galley too. (Still long days, get jet-lagged and dehydrated regardless)

So, how often do you guys go with double crews and 16+ hrs flights?
Once a year, or twice a month?
No stops and crew changes enroute, fuel tanks are too big, ouch.

[FlyMD]

Under EASA commercial rules, we can go the full range of the 650ER and more with 3 pilots (18 hours duty). However, the rules for the crew rest are a bit more specific: to be an approved crew "bunk", there needs to be a full-flat bed, light proof, with adjustable temperature, and reasonable sonic insulation. As the rest is right next to the forward galley and the forward lav, I need earplugs however to catch some Z's....

The big "cheat" is that there is no space for a second flight attendant, nor for the first one to have a decent sit-down when the crew bunk is occupied. So most operators don't have FAs but "ISP"s instead (inflight service providers).. They don't have official emergency duties, so they don't need proper rest or training..

If I owned a 70M$ airplane, it would bother me that the person preparing my food and looking after my well-being, as well as being closest to me when things go pear-shaped, is not subject to flight duty limitations...

[Tray Surfer]

FlyMD,

The big "cheat" is that there is no space for a second flight attendant, nor for the first one to have a decent sit-down when the crew bunk is occupied. So most operators don't have FAs but "ISP"s instead (inflight service providers).. They don't have official emergency duties, so they don't need proper rest or training..

If I owned a 70M$ airplane, it would bother me that the person preparing my food and looking after my well-being, as well as being closest to me when things go pear-shaped, is not subject to flight duty limitations...

Could not agree more. As an FA, in our operation, we do not get trained, however both of us come from commercial aviation backgrounds, and have been trained within an inch of our lives in our previous flying incarnations. There is talk/want for us to be trained properly on this operation, but if that were to happen, who knows... Also talk of a new longer range aircraft too, and I could see the FA's crew rest becoming the forward lav... (joking obviously... or am I? :D )

But, you make a very valid point, the person in the back has the possibility of doing a hell of a lot more than just serving the food and washing the dishes... If there was a lav or cabin fire, or a medical incident, I would prefer (if I owned a jet :D ) that the person who is in the cabin knew how to fight a fire correctly on an aircraft and how to use the equipment available... OR, do effective CPR and use the Defib and Oxygen on the principal passenger in those valuable couple of minutes when they have just hit the floor after going into a post heart attack cardiac arrest...

But, hey how... That is the business aviation industry for you! :O

[galaxy flyer]

Tower Dog

Who said anything about 2 bunks, just one. I flew lots, LOTS of augmented days in the C-5 and it was much better than the Global or GLF for in-flight rest. The best comparison would be the C-141, if flew it.

FlyMD,

That's basically our rule as a 91 operator, but wouldn't be sufficient for any commercial FAA operation. We, more often than not, did a crew change at the tech stop, but the Global was about a 12-hour plane at M.85. Frankly, the G5000 is perfect--11 hours, stop, board a new crew and catering and go on. There's nowhere you can't make in 22 hours at .85. And a tech stop is only an hour.

GF

[FlyMD]

Tray Surfer, we do train our ISPs, keep them current on all the Emergency stuff, firefighting, etc... In addition to the operator's requirement they do hangar-based training on the doors and emergency exits, and additional medical training with regards to our pax's needs..
However when there is an enlarged flight requires 3 pilots, the ISP loses on all fronts: less storage space for the catering, only the cockpit jump seat to have a sit-down, and she does the whole flight without hour limitations. I

[Tray Surfer]

FlyMD, I am hoping that will become the case with my Op, although I am going to do my own training this year, just because I feel I should keep myself current, and, compared to the US for example, recurrent is peanuts in the UK.

However, it will still be the same as you for flight time Ops etc. Hey ho...

[Lucky8888]

We put the augmented crew in the pax area. We are all on the same team and it never creates a problem.

[galaxy flyer]

Good for you, Lucky8888, but that's not common.

GF

[JTF]

The flight attendants at my Global 5000/6000 operator do use the forward lav for a rest area when the crew rest area is full of pilots on the 6000 and any time they need to sit down in flight with pax on the 5000. The jump seat is very inconvenient to operate and not particularly comfortable. Augmented flights on the Global aren't all that nice for any of the crew on a Global, but especially brutal on the FAs. I did 11.5 hours on one flight where the poor FA never had a chance to sit outside of takeoff and landing- the pax didn't sleep and had very elaborate meals.

[stilton]

Hang on, the FA's use the lavatory as a 'rest area' ?!

[lear60fellow]

Thanks all for the feedback, please don't get into duty time limits, it's not the place to, this is a technical question.

So, the 7500nm limit can be reached with proper conditions? I mean, not with 100kts headwind and so but with an average route wind and temperature.

[noneya]

Absolutely the G650ER will make its 7500nm range and then some. If you throw in winds then we can talk about one particular Vegas company that did over 8000

J

[galaxy flyer]

Lear60fellow,

Not to be argumentative, but crew rest facility is every bit as important as the aircrat's range. What good is the plane with an exhausted crew?

GF

[Lucky8888]

Good for you, Lucky8888, but that's not common.

GF

I didn't say it was. :)

[josephfeatherweight]

Absolutely the G650ER will make its 7500nm range and then some

This is correct.

With apologies to Lear60fellow, who doesn't like the thread drift - does anyone do/contemplate 24 hour duty day with 3 pilots (eg augmented) in a Global or G650 utilising the crew rest?

[galaxy flyer]

I recently was speaking with a buyer who wanted to do NYC-SYD straight thru with a three pilot crew, return 2 days later as a monthly trip. My operator stopped st 17 hours, planned crew changes often.

GF

[Booglebox]

I've seen a G650 do NFFN-KTEB in 14 or so hours. Most impressive!

[Bizjetlover]

I've seen a G650 do NFFN-KTEB in 14 or so hours. Most impressive!
I’ve seen g650 doing one stop in 6k nautical miles trips

[Global Aviator]

It amazes me how no real crew rest is built into a 7500nm machine.

With that kind of flight time an augmented crew is the safest or am I wrong?

An owner will spend 70 mil on an aircraft but not consider the ultimate safety of the flight? Part 91 ops you could have a crew flying silly times!

Charter ops well what’s the point of a long range aircraft if you have to stop to change crew?

Even the ACJ320NEO doesn’t seem to have real crew rest standard.

Or am I just thinking to much? Or drinking to much good Whisky while posting?

[flyboyike]

Even the ACJ320NEO doesn’t seem to have real crew rest standard.


I don't think there IS such a thing as a "standard" ACJ. There is so many possible configs that there could be all sorts of facilities.

[Global Aviator]

I don't think there IS such a thing as a "standard" ACJ. There is so many possible configs that there could be all sorts of facilities.

Very fair point indeed. What I should have said is the fit outs and proposed fit outs I’ve seen does not include crew rest.

I really do feel it is a real issue that will only grow as range increases.

Yes it costs money, however as I’ve said as a pax isn’t the well being of the people responsible to keep things safe paramount? The current answer is.......

[mutt]

I could show you some 747 or 787 BBJs that dont have realistic crew rest facilities.... no one ever appears to waste space on them, even with 3 levels used for passenger accommodation

[ELLS]

Our crew rest is pretty good [G650ER]. It is fwd of the galley across from the fwd lav and has a wood panel door, a lie flat seat/bunk, a window and a TV/monitor. Easy to get a few zzzz's. As a part 91 operator we are limited by company policy and common sense rather than FARs. Usually use 2 pilots up to about 12 hours and then add a 3rd depending on all the relevant factors. I personally prefer not to use a 3rd because you get there with 3 tired pilots but it makes sense for the long ones. As for the range- I came from a G550 and the longest leg we've put on our new 650 is 13.4. She will go a lot farther than that.

[CaptainProp]

It amazes me how no real crew rest is built into a 7500nm machine.

With that kind of flight time an augmented crew is the safest or am I wrong?

An owner will spend 70 mil on an aircraft but not consider the ultimate safety of the flight? Part 91 ops you could have a crew flying silly times!

Charter ops well what’s the point of a long range aircraft if you have to stop to change crew?

Even the ACJ320NEO doesn’t seem to have real crew rest standard.

Or am I just thinking to much? Or drinking to much good Whisky while posting?

Was just looking at data on the G7500 and thought the same. There’s no chance you’ll be able to operate these jets on European AOCs getting max duties out of a 3 pilot crew as the rest facilities availabe don’t actually qualify as such.

CP

[DCThumb]

Was just looking at data on the G7500 and thought the same. There’s no chance you’ll be able to operate these jets on European AOCs getting max duties out of a 3 pilot crew as the rest facilities availabe don’t actually qualify as such.

CP
Errr, why not? I work for a European AOC and the crew rest on our Global allows us to use it as crew rest. The rest area on the 7500 is an improvement on this!

[CaptainProp]

With Class 1 rest facilities max duty with 3 pilots can be extended to 16 hours. None of the crew rest seats / facilities that I have personally seen in Global / Gulfstream aircraft have even complied with Class 3 rest facilities. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist of course, but I think a lot of EU operators are just dodging these regulations and using whatever seats / rest facilities (or even jumpseats!) they have without actually complying.

CP

[DCThumb]

The standard Global crew rest is a lie flat seat in a cubicle where light is controlled. The only area for debate is whether it is sufficiently isolated to qualify as Class 1.

As it has a certified ‘acoustic screen’ between it and the galley, isolating it from the crew and passengers, it qualifies as Class 1.

Even a conservative operator can qualify it as class 2. Yes it’s not in the same league as the Boeing 777 crew rest area for example but it provides a perfectly adequate sleeping space.

[Hodin]

[...], but I think a lot of EU operators are just dodging these regulations and using whatever seats / rest facilities (or even jumpseats!) they have without actually complying.

CP

Cannot confirm - but maybe depends on your national CAA.
Before you can use those extensions you need to get an approval for them from your CAA - at least in my EASA state.
I was involved in a few of these and they were quite strict about what qualifies as class 1, 2 or 3 crew rest. Even with on site inspections - pictures not always did the job!
Compliance of FDT were checked in audits, especially on those a/c without class 1 crew rest.