Annex1 and annex2 aircraft

[md 600 driver]

Does anyone know if there any types of aircraft that The owner can choose to Be annex 1 or annex2 or easa/ non easa

[Jan Olieslagers]

I should think the closest you could get is a type that can both be registered as an ELSA (annex 1) or as a (national) ultralight (annex 2). There would still be a difference in MTOW. Details must depend on your national eules and bylaws.

[Above The Clouds]

Does anyone know if there any types of aircraft that The owner can choose to Be annex 1 or annex2 or easa/ non easa
PA18 Piper Cubs are one example, in the UK most are Annex II.

[Capt Kremmen]

Annex 2 aircraft are those that are operated in compliance with Permit certification from the Light Aircraft Association (LAA) or, the CAA here in GB.

[robin]

At the moment it isn't a matter of an owner choosing whether to go Annexe I or Annexe II. It is laid down in a list held by EASA.

Moving from Annexe I is a dreadful faff and one not to be taken lightly. You'd be better off finding an aircraft that is in the Annexe you want rather than trying to change it.

[Capt Kremmen]

md600driver


Go onto the LAA website. There's a list of types of Annex 2 aircraft.

[md 600 driver]

Capt kremen
Thanks but I am looking for information to see if there is any registered aircraft that for the same type some register annex1 and some register annex11

Above the clouds
I also checked the caa ginfo and couldn't find any pa18 on annex1 they are all annex2

Also looking to find if anyone has ever changed their aircraft from annex1 to annex 2.
Or
easa to non easa Legally

as I would like to have a aircraft on annex 11 rather than annex1
Thanks

[gasax]

If there is a type certificate holder the aircraft will be Annex 1. If or when that company closes, sometimes years after the authorities can decide to move it to annex II, as has happened with Austers etc. But remember that the CAA was for probably more than 15 years the de facto type certificate holder. The critical point is the owner does not get to choose. He/she can make representations but nothing more.

Virtually all PA18/150s are Annex 1, the smaller older aircraft can be Annex II, depending on the authority. Homebuilt replica Pa18s can be Annex II.

A considerable number of deHavilland's Austers etc have moved from I to II - but only after the authority ruled they could and the LAA agreed to administer them.

In places like France the situation is at least as complicated with for instance Gardans moving from Annex I to a restricted C of A category, still administered by DGAC

[Capt Kremmen]

md 600 driver


Aircraft do move from Annex 1 to 2 if the original Type Certificate holder does not anymore exist. This can mean that the a/c in question is 'orphaned' and can, with some major administrative leverage, be adopted into Annex 2. That's the theory.

[dsc810]

Some gliders from the same manufacturer who still exists are Annex I while their older ones are Annex II.

[Barcli]

A kit built Pitts S2A will be annex II , a factory built Pitts S2A will be annex I - I believe

[md 600 driver]

Gasax you replied

Virtually all PA18/150s are Annex 1, the smaller older aircraft can be Annex II, depending on the authority. Homebuilt replica Pa18s can be Annex 2.


I've checked on the UK CAA ginfo website and I can't find any pa18 /150 or even any other PA 18 on annex1 they are all on annex 2 (non Easa )which Easa country are you referring too please

[BillieBob]

I've checked on the UK CAA ginfo website and I can't find any pa18 /150 or even any other PA 18 on annex1I'm confused. Where do we find this Annex I? Annex I to what? The aircraft to which EASA regulations do not apply are listed in Annex II to the Basic Regulation but Annex I is to do with Essential Requirements for Airworthiness.

[Jan Olieslagers]

they are all on annex11Unless I missed something there is only Annex1 and Annex2 - never an Annex11. Life is hard enough as it is.

[md 600 driver]

sorry wrong terminology then annex 1 and annex 2 or easa or non easa

[460]

Beware.

Current Basic Regulation:
Annex II (Roman 2) specifies which aircraft are excluded from EASA.
- thus, everything else is included
Annex I (Roman 1) has nothing to do with lists of aircraft
- it does 'Essential requirements for airworthiness'

... but the Basic Regulation is being revised; due out in a year or so.
In this new one, the exclusion list will be in Annex I.
Details of the exclusions are subject to pretty extensive debate right now.

Enjoy.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Some incorrect statements here, as 460 points out.

Annex 1 is something else.

Annex 2 defines what isn't administered by EASA. This includes all amateur built aeroplanes, research aircraft, current and ex military aircraft, microlights, as well as aircraft built in small numbers and of national importance

So yes, most (possibly all?) of the LAA fleet are Annex 2, .definitely all of the BMAA fleet, all the warbirds administered by the CAA, but also Concorde if it were still flying, the BAe-146-301 that gets notammed as Metman1, anything flying on E-conditions. ..

If in doubt, look it up on G-INFO. If the magic phrase "non-EASA ", appears, it's Annex 2.

G

[Jan Olieslagers]

@460 & @GtE: I stand corrected, thanks.
Any explanation about WHY In this new one, the exclusion list will be in Annex I.
and what difference it would/will make?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Presumably just a tidy up of the layout of the regulations. UK government does it to our aviation regulations every once in a while, just as we've all got used to the paragraph numbering of the Air Navigation Order.

G

[Jodelman]

Annex 2 aircraft are those that are operated in compliance with Permit certification from the Light Aircraft Association (LAA) or, the CAA here in GB.

Not all Annex 2 aircraft are on a permit (LAA or CAA). For example, Piper PA22's are Annex 2 but on a C of A.

In places like France the situation is at least as complicated with for instance Gardans moving from Annex I to a restricted C of A category, still administered by DGAC

As I understand it, some of the Gardan Horizons in the UK are on an EASA C of A and some (one?) are on an EASA permit administered by the LAA.

[flybymike]

Go onto the LAA website. There's a list of types of Annex 2 aircraft.

Do the LAA maintain an exhaustive and complete list of Annexe2 types? Their website only seems to give "examples" of such types.

Isn't the Bulldog a type which can be either CofA or Permit?

[ChickenHouse]

Did you read the regulations for Annex 1 and Annex 2 before? Any Annex 1 can change to Annex 2, i.e. when getting equipped for scientific research. Back may be more complicated.

[md 600 driver]

Chicken house
No I didn't see that reference in the regulations where about in there was that please




Did you read the regulations for Annex 1 and Annex 2 before? Any Annex 1 can change to Annex 2, i.e. when getting equipped for scientific research. Back may be more complicated.

[BillieBob]

Did you read the regulations for Annex 1 and Annex 2 before? Any Annex 1 can change to Annex 2You still haven't got it, have you? There is no such thing as an 'Annex 1' aircraft.

[robin]

BillieBob

Thanks for clearing up the confusion. As far as I can see there is the "EASA Product List" and the Annexe II to the Basic Regulation list of non-EASA aircraft.

I guess a lot of us got that one wrong and assumed there were 2 Annexes; one for EASA types and one for non-EASA types

[ChickenHouse]

From the CAA on Non-EASA or "Annex II" aircraft (https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviation/Pilot-licences/Introduction-to-licensing/What-is-a-non-EASA-aircraft-/):

Currently, Annex II includes:
...
• Aircraft built or modified for scientific or novel purposes

= modify any EASA aircraft and you end up in "Annex II".

[S-Works]

Not necessarily. getting permission to modify an EASA aircraft for novel purposes would be pretty hard to come by and what is the definition of novel?

All of the aircraft I know that are modified for scientific purposes are still CofA aircraft as the scientific purposes are normally tied AOC work. I doubt very much you could modify your Cessna as a storm chaser and persaud the CAA to stick it on a permit...

[ChickenHouse]

All of the aircraft I know that are modified for scientific purposes are still CofA aircraft as the scientific purposes are normally tied AOC work.
That may be the case, but the question was
Does anyone know if there any types of aircraft that The owner can choose to Be annex 1 or annex2 or easa/ non easa
which is independent of the fact that obviously these chose to not go Annex II, even though they could. The reasons may be manifold, but that is another story.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I hate having to repeat myself.


Annex 2 aircraft are not all sub-ICAO. Plenty of them operate on a full (national, but still fully ICAO compliant ) CofA.

There are also sub-ICAO aeroplanes which are not Annex 2, and operate under EASA permits to fly.

Plenty of flight testing is done under EASA. These are not normally Annex 2.

G

[Rod1]

Some aircraft in Annex 2 can be either permit (LAA) or c of a. An example would be a Bulldog.

Rod1