FAA capitulates to city of Santa Monica.

[piperboy84]

FAA gives city the authority to shorten runway from 4900 to 3500 and close it entirely in 2028.

Bugger !


https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=21394

[jack11111]

The FAA should post a guard at KSMO incase the city gets the idea to pull a Richard M. Daly stunt and dig trenches across the runway a la Chicago Megis Field .

[India Four Two]

So the "People's Republic" won. I'm sorry to hear that.

[Flyingmac]

To put things into perspective. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Santa+Monica+Airport+Outdoor+Antique+%26+Collectible+Market/@34.0179681,-118.4518238,3359m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x8b603c39069fdc50!8m2!3d34.0143 763!4d-118.4486787

[S-Works]

Is that the one Harrison Ford parked on the golf course next to it after an engine failure?

[SWBKCB]

To put things into perspective. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...4d-118.4486787

Is there an airfield in the LA area that doesn't look like that? Been having a look recently for another project and that seems very familiar!

[Jan Olieslagers]

If you'll excuse me for playing the devil's advocate: keeping an aerodrome active when all around is built up is asking for trouble - sooner or later there will be forced landings in the streets or houses or supermarkets. Of course the real question is who allowed the build-up to happen.

[piperboy84]

The history of the field was the Douglas company built the DC3 here during WW2 I've heard stories that some of the factory was underground with a park on top to give any japs that may want to bomb it a bum steer. All the houses to the south and to the west were called "Douglas" houses and were built for the factory workers, most were 2 bed 1 bath, 1200 square foot on a 5000 square foot lot and sold for $5000. A lot of those original houses still exist today without modification or addition but now commad $1.5 to $2m so the real estate value to developers for the 270 acres of airport is in the billions. All houses to the immediate north and west of the field are in Santa Monica, the ones to the east and south are in the city of Los Angeles. My house 1 block south on Stanwood has seen all the old neighbors change from Telco workers and tradesmen to new arrivals who are Google, Snapchat and other high tech type folks with a high percentage being from the Indian sub-continent. Of late they are constantly coming to my door asking me to sign petitions to close the airport due to as they say "it's intruding on their lives". I politely decline to sign but explain to them that my method of enjoying my flying hobby and limiting people intruding on MY life was to vote for Trump with a view to enjoying the roll out of his commitment to cancel the H-1B visa program allowing foreign hi tech workers entry to the US. That normally prevents repeated intrusions on my day. .

[27/09]

asking me to sign petitions to close the airport due to as they say "it's intruding on their lives".

Ahh, so this intrusion has started since they move in. It's surprising how supposedly bright people can be so dumb.

I'd love to see the looks on their faces when you tell them to have sex and travel.

[Cenus_]

The history of the field was the Douglas company built the DC3 here during WW2 I've heard stories that some of the factory was underground with a park on top to give any japs that may want to bomb it a bum steer. All the houses to the south and to the west were called "Douglas" houses and were built for the factory workers, most were 2 bed 1 bath, 1200 square foot on a 5000 square foot lot and sold for $5000. A lot of those original houses still exist today without modification or addition but now commad $1.5 to $2m so the real estate value to developers for the 270 acres of airport is in the billions. All houses to the immediate north and west of the field are in Santa Monica, the ones to the east and south are in the city of Los Angeles. My house 1 block south on Stanwood has seen all the old neighbors change from Telco workers and tradesmen to new arrivals who are Google, Snapchat and other high tech type folks with a high percentage being from the Indian sub-continent. Of late they are constantly coming to my door asking me to sign petitions to close the airport due to as they say "it's intruding on their lives". I politely decline to sign but explain to them that my method of enjoying my flying hobby and limiting people intruding on MY life was to vote for Trump with a view to enjoying the roll out of his commitment to cancel the H-1B visa program allowing foreign hi tech workers entry to the US. That normally prevents repeated intrusions on my day. .

Never in my life has one individual gone from high regard to utter contempt so quickly. Such a shame.

[India Four Two]

Is that the one Harrison Ford parked on the golf course next to it after an engine failure? Yes, the golf course is just off the west end of 21:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Santa_Monica_Airport_-_California.jpg

What the picture doesn't show is that the golf course is about 100' lower than the threshold of 3. I suspect that Harrison Ford would have been better off continuing and ditching in the ocean off Venice Beach.

Here's a picture I took the day after the accident, when piperboy84 took me for a flight. The wreckage had already been removed.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/SMO/04%20Golf%20Course%20SMO%20IMG_2027_zps8vc7wbxa.jpg

[piperboy84]

Never in my life has one individual gone from high regard to utter contempt so quickly. Such a shame.

Sorry to hear that, and puzzled why.

[Silvaire1]

If you'll excuse me for playing the devil's advocate: keeping an aerodrome active when all around is built up is asking for trouble - sooner or later there will be forced landings in the streets or houses or supermarkets

Yes, and what of it?

Jan, in the US airports are built to serve people, and oddly enough people live in cities. There are few or no better examples of a city that can benefit from GA than greater Los Angeles: traveling from Santa Monica to anywhere takes hours in stop and go traffic, or a few minutes in a light plane. If I lived there (I don't) I think a light plane would be a Godsend in how it allows one to escape quickly from Smell A, maybe the only thing that would make it bearable to live there. Yes, people land those planes in all sort of places in an emergency but the number of people impacted is almost zero, particularly in comparison to people killed in car accidents in the same area. Cities are like that, and light aircraft are a great tool to access the middle of cities. Especially so since single engine aircraft demonstrated reliability good enough to fly over cities... let's say 70 or 80 years ago! In LA they've been used for that purpose ever since.

Piperboy84, when approached by relentlessly self-absorbed people, I too enjoy making amply clear that I don't agree with them, or their agenda. I think many of them in areas like yours, including temporary immigrants buying & selling $1.5M houses, have never been confronted with the idea that somebody might have a different perspective than their own. I think the rather clear lesson in that regard is no bad thing. Good on you.

[Tarq57]

Piperboy84, when approached by relentlessly self-absorbed people, I too enjoy making amply clear that I don't agree with them, or their agenda. I think many of them in areas like yours, including temporary immigrants buying $1.5M houses, have never been confronted with the idea that somebody might have a different perspective than their own. I think the rather clear lesson in that regard is no bad thing. Good on you. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. Can't agree with the means to the end, though. (Voting for Chump).
I hope that at least some good can come of it.

[9 lives]

I'm not familiar with Santa Monica airport, but I am extremely familiar with the three Toronto area airports which have closed since I started flying, and a fourth which is on the verge of closing. In all cases the closure was in large part to a shift in the balance of public pressure and increasing land values, to the interest and revenue generated by the airport. The shift was always away from aviation - our industry simply does not create enough revenue to justify the investment in prime real estate for an airport.

General aviation is at best tolerated by the public, but as often disliked and feared. They live their entire lives believing that they have no interest nor benefit derived from GA, so they will make little concession for it. So too, nearly all politicians.

The Toronto airport next to go will be Buttonville, late this year. I have been a regular user of this airport for 40 years. It existed as early as the '30's at that location, as my mother tells of taking flying lessons there in the late '40's. During the most recent 40 years, I have seen this airport go from being "one its own" surrounded by fields, to now being surrounded by built up area. There is nowhere practical to force land near by. There have been several airplane vs building and airplane vs road traffic crashes in recent years. I now fly high and close circuits there, just in case...

This very evening I dined with a pilot owner friend, who has been a Buttonville tenant for 30 years. He is now faced with relocating his 'plane a further 30 minute drive from where he lives, as the next nearest suitable airport. There simply is no other choice. Equally to his dismay, he reports that the very active Buttonville Flying Club will lose it's meeting place, as the next most suitable airport lacks facilities for that.

There is no solution for city dwellers to assure convenient GA facilities, the two are not harmonious. Where they co exist, pilots should think themselves fortunate, and go out of the way to appease the local non pilot citizens to delay the inevitable as long as possible...

I miss these old and convenient airports, as I miss Toronto International CYYZ welcoming GA... yes, I used to fly a 172 and 310 based there. I used to fly that 310 to Meigs Field in Chicago, I miss it too. Anything we can do to preserve these airports is great, but our options are limited.

[Silvaire1]

General aviation is at best tolerated by the public, but as often disliked and feared.

That may actually be true in Santa Monica (with its bizarre and unpleasant culture) and in some other cities, Chicago (e.g. Meigs Field) politics having been driven by similar forces, but it is not in general true among average people in the United States. I think most normal people rather like having light aircraft around.

What's driving the airport closure situation in some US cities, where more airports are actually needed due to road traffic congestion, is very clear: the prospect of gigantic building permit fees and 1.2% or more annual property tax revenues from whatever is built on that heretofore Federally supported land... which doesn't currently pay much property tax or ground rent. That, plus similar greed among local property owners who would like to flip their homes and move away.

That aside, airports in other US places are definitely disappearing to a degree as the years pass, but I think mainly its because there is less practical need for as many airports now versus then: in most US areas it's easier for an aircraft owner to drive 20 miles to a given airport now than it was to drive 5 miles 70 years ago... when there were so incredibly many US airports. In 1950 there were four GA airports within 12 miles of my house, but the roads to get there were not so good. Now I drive 20 miles in just a few minutes, front door to hangar door, and the facility is much better than any of those 1950 airports. I think big picture, in regard to most areas outside of those big cities like LA where they actually need more GA airports to meet demand, consolidation of airports is a rearrangement to better match the infrastructure on the ground.

[MarcK]

In the US, there is a wonderful website called Abandoned and Little-Known Airfields (http://www.airfieldsfreeman.com/). There were many more in the Los Angeles area.

[Martin_123]

his commitment to cancel the H-1B visa program allowing foreign hi tech workers entry to the US.

let me see if I understand this right - there are highly skilled professionals coming to your country, rising the GDP, paying taxes, attracting investment etc etc, generally making place wealthier around them and you want them out?

and how is it that you yourself can have homes on 2 different continents yet those of Indian subcontinent can't?

[Victorian]

This is indeed a world wide problem. In Finland, Malmi (another city centre airport) was due to close in December, but reportedly gasps on for a year or two more, though the operator Finnair has quit and it's to be operated by the city council directly in the meantime.

In UK, Wellesbourne hangs by the slender thread of Compulsory Purchase threatened by the local council in the face of many local property owners who stand to make a (large) financial gain if it closes. I'm not confident of a good outcome there.

Santa Monica is not only convenient for an annual industry convention that I attend at Century City, but also for the President who based his helicopter entourage there during the same week and closed down my planned side trip to Catalina Island with his TFR!

So that's three airports frequented by me alone that are on life support. Against that I can set the brand new Saint George (Utah) at which I was the first 'international' arrival, but not many more new airports. Even Saint George replaced a much more convenient downtown airport, now closed but still tantalisingly visible, like Filton or Sheffield City. I suppose Inishboffin off the Connemara coast would count if it ever opened to traffic, and of course the new airport at St Helena definitely counts but is a tiny bit outside my range, so it's not all bad....

[Fly-by-Wife]

Saying that one will vote / has voted for T Ronald Dump (for the purposes of winding someone up) and actually doing so are not the same thing at all.

There are certain conclusions being jumped to here.

FBW

[S-Works]

Well spotted and said FBW....

[piperboy84]

let me see if I understand this right - there are highly skilled professionals coming to your country, rising the GDP, paying taxes, attracting investment etc etc, generally making place wealthier around them and you want them out?

and how is it that you yourself can have homes on 2 different continents yet those of Indian subcontinent can't?

Someone from the Indian sub continent, myself or indeed from anywhere can have as many homes as they like. Where I differ from the folks that come to my door in LA is for the duration of my stay at my home in Spain I don't petition the authorities or agitate my neighbors to cease practicing legal hobbies and permanently dismantle the facilities where these activities are held. Bullfighting being an example of something I disagree with, however If it personally bothered me to the extent I felt I must do something then the proper course of action would be to sell up and get on a plane and go home. Their country, their rules, a visitor swanning in temporarily to dictate how other cultures live is xenophobic or perhaps even racist.

As for the the H1b program benefiting the country (and by extension its citizens) its industry and GDP you are having a laugh. The program is no more than a poverty gladiator contest between college debt strapped Americans fighting for a decent job with health and pension benefits against an import with significantly less expectations and with the sultans of corporate America and their Wall st. hedge funder mates sitting in the viewing stands being served by their bought and paid for handmaidens in the congress and senate who just happen to write the visa laws.

[Martin_123]

Someone from the Indian sub continent, myself or indeed from anywhere can have as many homes as they like. Where I differ from the folks that come to my door in LA is for the duration of my stay at my home in Spain I don't petition the authorities or agitate my neighbors to cease practicing legal hobbies and permanently dismantle the facilities where these activities are held. Bullfighting being an example of something I disagree with, however If it personally bothered me to the extent I felt I must do something then the proper course of action would be to sell up and get on a plane and go home. Their country, their rules, a visitor swanning in temporarily to dictate how other cultures live is xenophobic or perhaps even racist.

As for the the H1b program benefiting the country (and by extension its citizens) its industry and GDP you are having a laugh. The program is no more than a poverty gladiator contest between college debt strapped Americans fighting for a decent job with health and pension benefits against an import with significantly less expectations and with the sultans of corporate America and their Wall st. hedge funder mates sitting in the viewing stands being served by their bought and paid for handmaidens in the congress and senate who just happen to write the visa laws.
two thoughts on this:

you don't have every immigrant or H1B visa "owner" banging on your door, don't you? You have couple of wackos same way you have couple of British pensioners living in Spain whinging about the local way of life, that doesn't mean you should stop migration as a whole. I don't think you'd like being kicked out of Spain simply because someone else from your country was being annoying?

as for the "poverty gladiator" - if you stop cheap labor (not that "cheap labor" applies to silicon valley) coming in, you don't gain highly paid jobs for locals.. you end up with jobs going in the direction where cheap labor is coming from.. I really thought that americans would have learned this by now looking at what happened to motoring industry etc.. but you will just not learn from the mistakes of the past..

I seriously think countries that built their wealth on slavery, colonialism and exploitation are in no position to complain about immigration, you simply have no moral or legal grounds for it..

Anyway I'm sure your Indian neighbors are not the only ones trying to shut it down.. it's a pity this happens, and as others have stated - it happens all over the world. We are overpopulated. If you wanted to stop it, you should have voted for someone who supports planned parenthood and abortions.. ;)

[Expatrick]

"Someone from the Indian sub continent, myself or indeed from anywhere can have as many homes as they like. Where I differ from the folks that come to my door in LA is for the duration of my stay at my home in Spain I don't petition the authorities or agitate my neighbors to cease practicing legal hobbies and permanently dismantle the facilities where these activities are held. Bullfighting being an example of something I disagree with, however If it personally bothered me to the extent I felt I must do something then the proper course of action would be to sell up and get on a plane and go home."

Spot on!

[cats_five]

Santa Monica is not only convenient for an annual industry convention that I attend at Century City, but also for the President who based his helicopter entourage there during the same week and closed down my planned side trip to Catalina Island with his TFR!

One busy week a year isn't enough by a long chalk.

[9 lives]

it's a pity this happens, and as others have stated - it happens all over the world. We are overpopulated.

Overpopulation is apparent where people seem to want to be - to which my daughter would say: "Yeahhhh :hmm:". Population tends to be incompatible with airplanes, farming, wildlife sanctuaries, weapons testing, and the list goes on. The challenge for those land use activities is that the population has the money. If pilots and aircraft owners paid tens of thousands in hangarage/tiedown fees per year, and hundreds for each landing, the airports would have a fortune with which to justify their existence. But nearly all pilots struggle to justify hundreds for the hangarage, and tens for the landings. Based upon that economic model, the aviation will be economically forced out, let alone perception of nuisance/danger. Airports are generally not financially sustainable, and become less so, when the surrounding property values increase dramatically increase.

Pilots and aircraft owners will have to realize that they may have to be willing to be where the flying can happen, and it won't be convenient. Between 30 and 25 years ago, when successively three convenient airports closed, I saw the writing on the wall. I moved, 75 miles toward Canadian nowhere, and bought land. I made peace with all the neighbours in advance, and my planes have peacefully coexisted with a rural area ever since. Over population will not affect my runway during my lifetime.

But, this past year, new to regulation in Canada, new aerodromes may require approval. In the middle of nowhere, success can be assumed. But, in quasi populated areas, the population has a say too. There's a beautiful lake not far from me, and I splashed into it one day in the amphib. I got the evil eye from shore. I had the feeling of being in the wrong place with my 'plane. I left. I mentioned to a friend, and he told me that recently, that lake had been totally privately purchased, and closed to all but the owners. Sure enough, on the next print of the chart, it was marked as not for use. Fair enough, the landowners unified, and bought the entire lake - it's private.

There are awesome vast expanses of space in many places on earth, where airplanes could be operated, and no one would care a bit - over population not a concern. But, they're not convenient!

[RatherBeFlying]

I echo ST 's litany of the three small airport closures near Toronto. I and many others happily flew at all of them until the real estate developers smelled profits. Well, a construction company did happen to find King City airport more useful as an equipment park:(

There's folks been clamoring for some decades to close down Toronto Island Airport. The major complaint is noise and fumes. Somehow these folk give the adjacent Gardiner Expressway and Lakeshore Drive a free pass:}

Rural folk are generally live and let live types. But watch out for estate and ranchette developments. My old glider club was the subject of orchestrated noise complaints from the people who bought into the latest such development. They sicced Transport Canada and the city of Hamilton on us. The previous rural municipality had been forceably amalgamated into Hamilton, a good half hour drive away through farmland:mad:

Like ST, I decamped to a two hour drive from a major city.

[Martin_123]

Overpopulation is apparent where people seem to want to be

humans as well as animals have always migrated and concentrated in the areas of plenty.. So yes, you are right, it is apparent.. and as the concentration and demand grows in these particular areas, infrastructure and landscape around it is forced to change.. I can't say I'm a fan of it, but no matter which way you look at it, it is a competition for the resource and survival of the fittest.. (or of that who can shout louder)

[terry holloway]

A new and major airport was built inFinland a few years ago miles away from the people, but on a good road. The workers at the airport bought land and built houses close to the airport, and guess what? Yes, people now complain about airport noise!

[Expatrick]

"I seriously think countries that built their wealth on slavery, colonialism and exploitation are in no position to complain about immigration, you simply have no moral or legal grounds for it..."

As regards Indian immigration I am not sure many Africans would agree with you.

[terry holloway]

"I seriously think countries that built their wealth on slavery, colonialism and exploitation are in no position to complain about immigration, you simply have no moral or legal grounds for it..."

As regards Indian immigration I am not sure many Aficrans would agree with you.
I thought the Indians were in America first?

[Expatrick]

I thought the Indians were in America first?

I think we are talking about different Indians - but then I also think you know that!

Apologies for the spelling mistake in my previous.

[piperboy84]

I seriously think countries that built their wealth on slavery, colonialism and exploitation are in no position to complain about immigration, you simply have no moral or legal grounds for it..

Yes us Anglo Saxons are a bad bunch, I just hope and pray that I and future generations of my offspring don't neglect to continually apologize and make amends for our forefathers sins of past colonialism and the devastation it has wrought on former colonies to this day. Forcing our language, civil administrative practices, educational system and transportation networks has left places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Mumbia, Vancouver and large cities in the US and Caribbean completely unprepared for today's modern world. If we had just emulated the benevolent, peaceful and mutually benificial practices of the other colonialists like the Japanese or Turks for example, perhaps we would now be benefiting from the liberal immigration policies that they have instituted to rectify their past injustices. I'm led to believe it's only a few hours flying time from Aleppo to Ankara.

[Silvaire1]

Don't forget the Spanish and their Latin American legacy of effective, trustworthy government and responsible population control. That results in US citizens from L.A. and similar places scrambling southbound and overwhelming Mexican infrastructure. At least they can send a little money home so the relatives at home in L.A. can afford fuel for their planes.

[India Four Two]

The beginning of the end, as reported on Avweb:

The City of Santa Monica has approved a contract for shortening of the runway at SMO from 4,973 feet to 3,500 feet. After years of attempts to close the airport entirely, the City of Santa Monica entered into an agreement in January with the FAA that would permit the city to shorten the runway immediately and to close the airport in 2028. The excess runway will be converted to blastpad and runway overrun spaces. While sufficient for piston, turboprop and even light jet traffic, 3,500 feet won’t be enough runway for owners of the largest business jets, who will have to move their planes elsewhere. The city estimates shortening the runway will reduce jet traffic by 44 percent.

The exact design is scheduled for completion later this month with construction work ongoing from October to December of this year. The airport will be closed overnight for significant portions of this time and the city says operators can expect the airport to be closed for seven to 14 days during this period.

[piperboy84]

The NBAA are giving it once last try to block the city, however I think it may be in vain.

NBAA Returns to Court Over Santa Monica | Flying Magazine (http://www.flyingmag.com/nbaa-returns-to-court-over-santa-monica)