Crash'landings'

[Grim Reaper 14]

Any advice for the best way to crash? I know those that say to aim between two trees, thereby ripping both wings and fuel away from where you'll end up. Practical? Bleedin' stupid? Advice please! Also in relation to ditching - best practice, best things to avoid, etc.

Hoping I never need to find out first hand though!:)

[treadigraph]

Some useful info on ditching and other safety-related topics here...

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/general_aviation/document.asp?groupid=231

Hope none of us ever need it!

Cheers....

Treadders

[QDMQDMQDM]

Try www.equipped.com for excellent reviews of survival equipment, including rafts, life vests etc. Makes frightening reading.

QDM

[TheKentishFledgling]

A book I've read (it may have been Stick and Rudder!) talks about getting the tail to hit the ground first, as this will make things a lot "better" for you.

tKF

[Sdn Ldr Handlebar]

Tally Ho Chaps

Now call me an old buffer but here's something I know more about than any bally aviator alive........ mainly because anyone with more experience of crashing than me is likely to be dead.

WWII saw me shot down over 350 times and not once did I fail to walk away....Ok so I crawled a few times .....all counts though believe me.......best advice is don't leave it too late before deciding to stuff the prop into the ground.......most dead pilots are dead because they fought the damn plane........stupid ******s thought they could fly with one wing or no engine or something like that........no, best advice.......make your decision to ditch early.........that way you have time to pick your spot.......don't be the duty hero and try to bring the old kite home.........if she's spewing smoke and flying like a welly boot full of swarfega and ball bearings start looking for somewhere to put it down........pick your spot and treat it like a normal approach.........or as normal as approaching the ground in a perpendicular fashion can be.......

Suppose what I'm trying to say is...........

Give yourself time!!!!

Well chaps must fly.....TTFN

Sdn Ldr Handlebar

[camaro]

Aim for the softest, least expensive thing you can see and close your eyes.....:D

[Bre901]

I know someone who had to make a glider outlanding in a more than hilly zone (southern alps). He touched down in a very small meadow and ended purposefully in an apple-tree orchard. Aimed between to trees. Both him and his passenger came out of the wreck with nothing but bruises on the shoulders (straps tightened before landing).

This worked fine with a wooden glider. Don't know what that would have been in a glass or carbon one. Glass exhibits some plastic deformation before breaking, whereas carbon is very brittle and does not dissipate that much energy. Metallic structures would probably behave better.

Nevertheless, I guess it is still better to aim between trees than towards one :D

[FWA NATCA]

Grim Reaper,

Questions about emergency landings off field, and in water

1. consult the aircraft manufactures Manual.
2. talk with experts who have investigated crashes.
3. talk with your local Coast Guard Rescue people about water landings.
4. Pratice Emergencies only with a qualified Instructor, so IF it happens you are prepared.


There are many Bold Pilots, but there are NO old bold pilots, nope, they are called statistics.


Mike R
FWA

[mattpilot]

Here some advice that you can take with you right now.

This is the FAA recommendedway (and sometimes just my own :))

1) landing on land - day
- first choise: airfields or out of service airfields. You should plan your route so that you always have a field to land in. Here in the US we have 20000 fields. i think this is gonna be hard for you in the UK because i think you guys dont have that many.
- second choice: farm land. I think they say the lighter the texture the softer the ground - or is it the other way around? Not to sure, but either way. Make sure you land with the rills(that the right word?), not agains them - make sense?
- third choice: roads. if possible, make sure its free of trees & poles either side. and also make sure its as car-free as possible
- fourth choice: personally, i have never heard anyone say to put it between 2 trees, but it makes sense if your in an area with no clear fields. Just do as recommended above. Your landing roul-out should be fairly short :D

2) landing on land - night
to be honest with you, your chances of surving this are very slim. Reason? You can't see squat.
- first choice: airfields - see above
- second: roads that are lighted. At night, they are pretty much free of cars so it should be no choice
- third: FAA recommends to pick a dark area to land on if above isn't available. They reason its a field or something clear. I think it could be anything. Body of water or woods (they are very dark) is what i'm thinking. But other then that, i dont have any idea. So ya might as well go with that :D

3) landing on water - day/night
lets face it, your screwed :) hehe j'k
since there is only one choice, here some tips:
- land parallel to the waves, not against them (same as farm field above) duh! Hard to see from above, i know, but try your best if you want to survive the hard impact that a wave will cause.
- when descending, CFI i know recommended to have a stabilized descend of about 50-100fpm. since its hard to judge the height when over water you will have a hard time flaring at the right time. Of course, this only works when your making a landing with engine power. Yes, believe it or not, its sometimes safer to land on water with engine power (since you figure you will lose your engine soon anyway) then to try to make it to shore with some engine power. IF you lose your engine en route, your impact on water will be alot harder, and probably tip over = not good.
- there is controversy of whether or not to deploy the gear. The manual should always be consulted on this matter. If you did the wrong thing, even though you thought you did the right, better, thing, the insurance will not cover you and the FAA will kick yo ass for not following regulations (which state you must follow operating procedures established by manufacture).


I think thats it - any comments? If my theories are wrong i'd like to be educated - i'd like to walk away too if it ever happens :)

[Rod1]

FWA NATCA You said

4. Pratice Emergencies only with a qualified Instructor, so IF it happens you are prepared.


Why? If you only practice with an instructor you are much more likely to panic if it happens for real and you do not have your safety blanket along.

I practice emergences, including PFLs, regularly, but I only fly with an instructor once or twice a year, normally in a different aircraft type from that which I fly most of the time. I have survived one total engine failure and one partial without any damage or injury. If I had not kept in current practice I would have probably crashed both times.

Rod

[mattpilot]

i agree with Rod. The FAA, for example, recommends only to do it with CFI's. But if you only fly with CFI's on your Biannual review (or whenever you UK guys have your reviews), then you will probably be out of luck when it actually does happen. Just when you do it, make sure you operate the engine correctly. You know, clean out the engine every 500 feet (if you idle to long, and then suddenly apply full power on the go around, your engine could be 'stuck'). Make sure carb heat is on (since your on reduced power setting).

[QDMQDMQDM]

The thing I'm trying to drum into myself more than anything (I so hope I don't forget it when / if the time comes ) is 'Don't stretch the glide'. The temptation must be overwhelming if you think you're just a bit short and very many experienced pilots have succumbed to it.

Far better to land short, wherever it is, than dive in from a stall / spin.

Ugh. Gives me the shivers just to think of it.

QDM

[mattpilot]

what i usually do when practicing emergencies is, once the power is gone, trim the plane all the way down. This way i can forget about keeping the A/S and concentrate on other things. in the 152 this works pretty well as it keeps recommended A/S for you.

IMPORTANT: Dont forget, there is a big difference in your glide distance & rate of descent with some engine power (practice) and no engine power (real thing). Dont think, just because you made this far during practice, that you can make it that far in the real thing. this is most dangerous when on downwind to an emergency field. You'd like to think that last time you went this far out too(practice), but when the real thing happens you have to cut it a little shorter (the base leg).

This is also important. When picking a field to land, it is often very hard to judge height. Because you will always suffer from the "Runway Width Illusion". The thing that helps me is to look at objects on the ground and compare them to the field. A tree usually is the best thing. I failed my first stage check because i didn't consider that. The other 2 stages was just perfect because i knew what to look for.


Hope this helps.

[FWA NATCA]

Rod1,

I encourage pilots to seek out a CFI prior to praticing emergency procedures, because it is important that the sequence of steps during an emergency are done correctly.

My main point is, how many times have you heard of a pilot feathering the wrong engine because the pilot DID NOT follow the proper procedures, I can go on and on with examples, of emergencies that should had been recoverable but weren't because the pilot made critical mistakes during the emergency that compounded the situation.

Whenever a pilot hasn't flown for awhile he or she tends to get rusty, and it's easy to forget an important step when an emergency decides to present itself. After brushing up on emergency procedures with a CFI, I see nothing wrong with a pilot praticing on their own, but it doesn't hurt to have another pilot on board to critique how you handled the simulated emergency.

In the USA we hold Pilot safety seminars called Operation Rain Check, that give pilots an oportunity to discuss safety procdures and fly with a CFI to learn and test their knowledge of the proper steps for handling various emergencies.

Constant pratice makes the emergency procedures automatic, I just don't want to see the pilot leaving out important steps and making a bad situation worse.

Mike
FWA

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well I'm not as experienced at crashing as Sldr Handlebar but I have done it a few times:(

1/. Engine failure on initial and landed back on field (downwind) with no damage.

Notes:

I know that the '180 turn' is the great aviation 'no no' but under the right conditions using the right technique it can be done. My other option was suburbia and as one of my first instructors said, "You have no right to take your airplane into someone's living room...even if you die trying don't do it.

I have also landed a C185 on a road. Down hill, down wind, around a corner, hitting power lines (that I couldn't see) and walked away without a scatch and with only superficial damage to the aircraft...because I accepted that this was my best option, maintained correct speeds and fought the aircraft to a standstill. No matter how bleak the view out the window may be if you don't give up hope you will maximise your chances. Give up and you are dead! The above road 'arrival' happened off an extended down wind, due traffic, where I turned 180 degrees, realise I wasn't going to make the field...turned 100 degrees more and set up on the road at about 200'...hit the power lines at about 40' and landed amidst light traffic. It was the option with maximum plusses...terrain in the area was not the best with lots of little hills and gullies full of scrub. It was a very busy 90 seconds or so:eek:

Of course if I had checked that my (very experienced) student had done what I directed and changed tanks (hidden from view beneath/between the seats) it would not have happened at all..so mea culpa:(

I once had a prop blade depart the aircraft (really old C206) at 1000' on initial, the engine spewed oil on the windscreen in it's death throws and I couldn't see $hit. I trimmed for minimum speed flight and aimed approximately where a huge field was, more or less straight ahead...and just arrived...but walked away and got drunk later on with the parachutists that I had been carrying...but who jumped out at the first hint of trouble. I had a chute as well but the drop zone owner who owned the aircraft had threatened me with painfull death if I ever jumped for anything less than losing a wing:( Just after touchdown the engine fell off the front of the aircraft due to damage sustained to the mounts from the few seconds of very unbalanced spinning prop...it wedged under the left wheel strut and brought me to a sudden stop.

General Rules:

1/. NEVER STRETCH THE GLIDE.
2/. BETTER TO HIT SOMETHING NEAR THE END OF THE GROUND ROLL SLOWLY THAN FAST BEFORE YOU TOUCH DOWN.
3/. UNDERSTAND HOW THE AIRCRAFT YOU ARE FLYING WILL REACT TO WHATEVER YOU MAY NEED TO DO.
4/. PRACTICE GLIDING FULL FLAP SIDE SLIPS SO YOU CAN GET INTO TIGHT OPTIONS.
5/. IN A SE AIRCRAFT ALWAYS KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR PLACES TO PUT DOWN.
6/. PRACTICE GLIDE APPROACHES TO TOUCH DOWN AT SUITABLE AIRFIELDS.
7/. GOING INTO TREES MAKE A FULL FLAP STALL INTO THE TOPS AT THE SLOWEST POSSIBLE SPEED AND AS CLOSE TO THE TOPS AS POSSIBLE.
8/. IF A DITCHING IS INEVITABLE DO IT WHILE YOU STILL HAVE POWER. ACCEPT THE SITUATION AND PLAN BEFORE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE.
9/. HAVE A PLAN OF ACTION YOU ARE HAPPY WITH BEFORE YOU ROLL ON TAKEOFF. IN SE AIRCRAFT WHAT WILL YOU DO BEFORE 100'/300'/1000' WHAT AFTER?

Remember that an amatuer is surprised when an engine fails on take off...a professional is surprised when one doesn't.

When I was learning to fly at night I asked my father (20000hrs) about engine failures at night.

"Put the aircraft in the landing configuration/speed...when you think you are close to the ground turn on the landing lights...if you like what you see leave them on!!!":D

Studying the countryside around where you usually fly and thinking about what you would do in various scenarios is some of the best preperation...practicing manouvreing the aircraft in gliding flight, under supervision and at a safe altitude could save your life and the lives of those with you...hey might be you children:cool:

Chuck.

Edited to remove the description of a manouvre that is beyond the skill levels of average PPLs

[Rod1]

FWA NATCA

If pilots cannot handle emergences they should, as you suggest, seek assistance ASAP. All qualified pilots need to be able to handle emergences on there own with the wife and kids in the aircraft.

My worry about your post was one of currency. Most qualified pilots with access to there own aircraft, or a group share, do not fly regularly with instructors. I see a growing trend in these pilots not to practice, as it is dangerous to do so. The result is a lot of people will not even do stalls solo, let alone PFL’s. It is very important that an emergency is handled quickly and accurately. The ONLY way to do this is to practice and test yourself frequently. If you judge you are not performing OK and you need help, then an instructor is the next step. All the correct procedures are well covered in the checklists, flying books and aircraft manuals.

Chimbu chuckles

Respect man! There is a lot of truth in your post. I too have turned back and lived to fight another day. In my case it was water ahead or dry land behind. The problem is I used my Gliding experience to do it and PPL’s are not trained in the same way. Most of the PPL’s that have attempted a turn back have died. I know of some military types who were taught turn back on the Bulldog, and have used it for real.

[FlyingForFun]

mattpilot, I'm sure your idea of trimming full down will work fine in your 152, but I'd be wary of advising anyone to use this technique in another aircraft without trying it at altutude first - preferably with an instructor - since the trim on different aircraft is bound to behave differently. In fact, even in an aircraft where you say you've tried it and you know it works, I'd suggest people try it for themselves at altitude before they rely on it, since the controls will no doubt feel different...

Chimbu chuckles, thanks for the advice on the 180-degree turn, however I think I'll steer clear of it for now. There was another thread somewhere on PPRuNe very recently where some people with more experience than I'll ever have were saying that the 180-degree turn is only appropriate in certain types, that military instructors were allowed to do it so long as they practiced it every week, and that military students were never allowed to do it, or something like that.

Should you really be taking off from a field where you have no emergency landing options? Some of the runways at White Waltham are pretty close to built up areas, which is why the standard circuit for runway 07 includes a turn onto 010 degrees as soon as it's safe. Even then, if the engine quits it won't be pretty, but you'll be in the woods instead of in the houses. But the 180 degree turn certainly doesn't sound like the kind of thing I'd like to try in an emergency, even if the only other other option is a built up area. I'd rather be able to control where my aircraft crashes than try to turn back and stall/spin. As your instructor said, you have no right to fly an aircraft into someone else's living room - so it's essential that you maintain control of your aircraft for as long as possible. If they were the only two options, I'd rather fly into someones living room in a controlled manner than go spinning into somones living room.


It's always a danger describing flying techniques on a forum like this - I know I've just stopped myself from doing it several times, and there are probably even more times when I've been guilty of doing it without noticing. But please, anyone who reads this thread, don't try any of these techniques alone without first consulting the POH, and then flying them with an instructor. And if you really feel like you need to ask for advice on how to handle emergencies, you probably need to book a couple of hours dual with an instructor. IMHO.

FFF
-------------

[Chimbu chuckles]

FFF I agree....I came so close to deleting all comment about the turn back manouvre but with the caveats in red I decided to leave it sit. (since thought more and decided to delete it)

But if any pilot suffers an engine failure and just decides on the spur of the moment to try it I can absolutely gaurantee that the outcome will be stall,spin,crash, burn and die.

I also lost a mate and his girlfriend in a turnback after partial engine failure in a Tiger Moth...but the girlfriend was standing atop the top wing in a frame...he turned back because he was afraid she'd be killed if he flipped over landing straight ahead...her neck was broken in the crash and he died due to ingesting flame/super hot air while trying to free her from the burning wreckage.

When I learned the turnback I was doing an instructors rating..I practiced and practised...got to the point where I could slap the flaps down, whip the aircraft over on a wingtip and pull to the burble before whipping it back level...apart from anything else it was a $hitload of fun.

I own a Bonanza and mainly due to the fact that it lives in Oz and I'm here I have not flown it much...when I do get to fly it I'll try the manouvre but my gut feeling is that the aircraft WILL NOT DO IT. This based on the numerous glide approaches I have flown in the aircraft and the fact that A36s glide like an aerodynamically efficient manhole cover.

It is very probably, as you point out, not possible in every type of aircraft.

In general terms though all sorts of unusual manouvres should be taught and practiced...advanced stalling and lots of aeros when I was a young tyro saved my life more than once in the PNG highlands when bushflying later in C180s,185s and Helio Couriers...the average PPL who never flies more than basic straight & level type flying except every two years at the BFR is dangerous.

Chuck.

[mattpilot]

@chuck

i didn't get to read your technique before you deleted it. I would be very interested in it. I've asked my instructor(s) plenty of times on what to do. They dont really have an answer. You'd be amazed by their inexperience.

If you dont want to post it again, could you e-mail it to me, please?



@FFF

thanks for clearing that up for the rest. i figured that was a given. At least i personally wouldn't do anything in the real deal that i haven't practiced myself.

[FWA NATCA]

Chimbu,

Yesterday afternoon a C152 departing FWA lost his engine and attempted a turn back to the runway and DID NOT make it, he stalled and crashed into a chain link fence about a quarter mile off and south of the runway. Because the fence caught the airplane and cushened the impact the pilot was able to walk away from the crash.

Why the pilot did not elect to land straight ahead onto several road ways is unknown.

Mike

[andrewc]

The following article by a professor of aeronautics and pilot
at http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/possible.html is rather
interesting as an analysis of the issues behind engine
failure turnbacks...

-- Andrew

[Chimbu chuckles]

Interesting article andrewc, I agree with most of it but wonder why they didn't try 45 to 60 degree AoB with flaps going down through the turn?

FWA NATCA,

I removed the description of the '180 turn' because I was worried that it might cause pilots who are not current in general, let alone in advanced handling, to try it without training and practice.

As the article posted by andrewc states, with training and practice it is a reasonably safe manouvre...to that I would add that with training and practice it's $hitloads safer than crashing into tall trees, freezing water, houses or busy roads. Why they didn't try it with flaps is beyond me in an otherwise comprehensive evaluation.

Also as the evaluation states...It's a standard requirement for glider pilots from 200'...the only difference between the aircraft types is glide ratio and therefore starting altitude...fixed wing aircraft have flaps to minimise the turn radius and help with reducing stall speed.

When I fly single engined aircraft I brief myself, particularly when the departure is not straight forward from an engine failure point of view. The same way as I brief my co-pilots when flying jets. I've been constantly amazed over the years how few professional pilots (without airline backgrounds) cannot do a departure/arrival brief to save themselves. What hope for your average PPL holder?

I flew close to 1000 hrs in SE aircraft in the PNG Highlands departing off 17% sloped, rough, curved airstrips at up to 10000' DA and over VERY nasty terrain, up to 16+ sectors a day and often with windshear and quartering tailwinds for takeoff or landing. Believe me that tends to focus your mind on the job at hand and what you might do in case of an engine failure.

When the ONLY places you are going to end up is either the side of a mountain sloped at 30 to 60 degrees and covered in vegetation ranging from tall Kunai grass to huge trees...or a white water river with boulders the size of houses then you tend to look at what's possible as opposed to what your several hundred hour instructor, who had yet to venture far from the circuit area, told you at ab initio stage.

The reason it is not taught is because generations of powered FW instructors have been told it is impossible, or at the very least incredibly risky...when pilots, who have not been taught how, crash trying it, on the spur of the moment, it just reinforces the preconcieved idea further.

IMO there is a huge % of Pilots out there, of whatever licence type, who either should not have a licence at all, or who while capable of the skills required, were not taught all the skills necesary to safely and competently pilot an aircraft. The reasons for this are that schools and aircraft manufacturers want everyone to fly and bend over backwards to get weak sisters through so that they can then rent or buy aircraft.

Most non professional pilots don't fly anything like enough to keep current and they virtually never practice emergency procedures, as witnessed by the abismal showing at Bienial Flight Reviews. A good mate is a very senior and hugely experienced Authorised Testing Officer for CASA and the horror stories he tells of conducting flight testing on candidates for initial issue or BFR send my blood cold...people even try and dictate to him what they are prepared to do and not do during the test:eek:

I would hate to think how many practice emergencies I have done in 10000 hours of flying in various charter, supplemental airline, 'major' airline and corporate jet operations...both administered by me as the checker and administered to me as checkie...it would be thousands...how many would the average ppl do in a life time...50? 100?. How many hours have I spent contemplating how to best cope with various scenarios that might pop up in my day to day operations as everything from SE bush pilot to corporate flight department CP...thousands more...how many the average PPL holder over a lifetime?

Various august bodies agonise over accident statistics but when it comes right down to it achieve very little...why? Because no-one seems prepared to tackle problems at the early stages and demand high enough standards at initial and recurrent training.

If doing that forces many people out because they can no longer afford it....TOUGH!!

Chuck.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've only crashed the once, and didn't enjoy it. I've helped investigate far too many.

My best piece of advice concerning take-off, is that for EVERY take-off, in any aircraft, in any field, work out in advance what you'll do at each point if there's an engine failure, brief it, and if necessary stick to it. For example "in the event of an EFATO I'll attempt to stop on the runway, if too high up to 600 ft, I'll turn slightly left and land in the wheatfields there, above 600 ft I'll turn right and fly a tight circuit back onto the runway". If you brief it, you might do it.

On landing, fly a circuit that so far as possible, would allow you to glide to the runway, or at-least a suitable landing site if the engine were to stop at any point. That probably means a tighter circuit than most light aircraft pilots are used to, so be it.


Higher, never fly where you couldn't land or at-least ditch, avoid low flight over forest etc - remember you've only the one engine.

G

[LowNSlow]

Genghis spot on. Bomber Command circuits should be banned unless they are dictated by location etc.

I've never crashed (so far) but I've had some interesting "arrivals" :D

As mattpilot said, gliding in with the propellor making an interesting intersection in your line of vision rather than whizzing around at idle speed makes a BIG difference to

a) the glide performance

b) for those fortunate enough to fly taildraggers you have no propwash over the tailfeathers which makes directional control once on the ground interesting if your brakes are of the "minimal" variety :eek:

I like to practive PFL's when I go flying (lot's of big fields in East Anglia) and I never fail to amaze myself how badly the first one nearly always goes......... Strangely enough it went fine when I did my bi-annual checkflight. Since then I've found that talking to myself helps ie describing out loud what you are doing seems to help the thought processes as I had done on my bi-annual