What does ATC expect? 1000ft/min?

[Chally604]

Hey all,

Can anyone point me in the right direction to find some more info on:

1) How much descend rate ATC expects usually? 1000ft/min minimum?!? Anything at all?

2) When ATC asks for speed reduction how fast do they want the reduction to happen. At what difference in speed do they expect the use of spoilers? Instead of just letting the plan decelerate.

I heard some answers to these questions in my career, but seems there is a lot of gossips, so I wanted to find it PANS OPS/ATM and other docs but wasnt successful.

Thanks

[Chesty Morgan]

In the UK it's only 500fpm enroute or in the hold above transition level. Anywhere else it's up to you.

[Chally604]

Thanks both. So UK 500fpm.
Anybody knows where I can find this in written?
Anyone else on another country?

[ShyTorque]

At many airfields ATC seem to have a formula whilst vectoring aircraft which enables them to judge precisely when pilots will have to level off and roll out onto the localiser at exactly the same time. Especially during instrument rating tests.... :E

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Use whatever you need. If ATC wants something else, they'll tell you.

[Broomstick Flier]

I judge the rate of decel based on the big picture, not many traffics around, late night arrival, just let the aircraft decel by itself, busy hours and following someone on the arrival, reduce asap. Sometimes, ATC will issue a more specific instruction, i.e. "Reduce now to 250kt", then comply accordingly.

At the end, just use your airmanship and good judgment and get the job done.

No cookies for using spoilers all the time :E

[Zeffy]

300'/nm is a reasonable expectation for descent in the enroute structure.
5 X GS works well for that.

[Chally604]

Thanks all for the answers.
It seems there is simply nothing written nowhere, right?!
So it comes down to airmanship, which is quiet a flexible term ;-)

[Chesty Morgan]

From the UK AIP:
3.2.2.4.1 In order to ensure that controllers can accurately predict flight profiles to maintain standard vertical separation between aircraft, pilots of aircraft commencing a climb or descent in accordance with an ATC Clearance should inform the controller if they anticipate that their rate of climb or descent during the level change will be less than 500 ft per minute, or if at any time during such a climb or descent their vertical speed is, in fact, less than 500 ft per minute.
3.2.2.4.2 This requirement applies to both the en-route phase of flight and to terminal holding above Transition Altitude.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-4BA0C7CF734F0306A23DF96AC4040C46/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/ENR/EG_ENR_1_1_en_2016-12-08.pdf

[Lucky8888]

In the U.S...

Paragraph 270 (d) of the Airmans Information Manual directs that ..."When ATC has not used the term 'AT PILOT'S DISCRETION' nor imposed any climb or descent restrictions, pilots should initiate climb or descent promptly on acknowledgement of the clearance. Descend or climb at an optimum rate consistent with the operating characteristics of the aircraft to 1,000 feet above or below the assigned altitude, and then attempt to descend or climb at a rate of 500 feet per minute until the assigned altitude is reached. If at anytime the pilot is unable to climb or descend at a rate of at least 500 feet a minute, advise ATC."

[PilotJames]

The UK AIP says min 500fpm.
If you can't maintain this then just let air traffic know as they use it for their planning.
Some airport notes tell you a min rate of descent in the terminal area.
Manchester technically requires min 500fpm.

[Chally604]

Hi guys,

Thanks again for the feedback. And special thanks for the references.
Seems like min 500fpm seem reasonable.
I was told 1000fpm 10 years ago and wanted to find out finally ;-)

What about the deceleration rate?
Lets say we are heavy and the anti ice pushes you during the descend.
At times it might be a bit tough to get rid of the speed without spoilers. (yeah, I know they are there to be used.... :E)

:ok:

[PilotJames]

My airline participated in a trial at a U.K. Airport with slightly different speeds on base.
They wanted us to achieve that speed in 60seconds or less.

[Brian 48nav]

Why not put your question on ATC Issues, further down the home page? ATCOs from all over the world read that site.

[Amadis of Gaul]

What about the deceleration rate?
Lets say we are heavy and the anti ice pushes you during the descend.
At times it might be a bit tough to get rid of the speed without spoilers. (yeah, I know they are there to be used.... :E)

:ok:

Depends on the aircraft, no? In my experience, I never remember getting yelled at for not slowing down rapidly enough...

[Chally604]

Yeah Brian, maybe thats a good idea too.
Anyways, Thanks for the help.

[FlightDetent]

Chesty gave you direct quote from AIP, what more you need? Just the curious me, sorry. Also be aware that ATCOs are humans too.