HKPA

[Zapp_Brannigan]

No HKPA raise without productivity increase.

Will the rest of us have to pay for an increase of allowance for a select few?

What about admitting that goodwill and extra training capacity are good enough as a productivity increase?

[MENELAUS]

Hardly a select few. The de facto majority now.

[Progress Wanchai]

CX saved plenty with the unilateral introduction of HKPA to replace housing, of which they passed none back to the pilot body.
So until the day HKPA surpasses housing they'll still be saving money.

When that day arrives, then maybe we should consider making some concessions or productivity gains.

Typical Swire gameplay. Steal something from their staff then sell half of it back and call it fair. Ala any concessions they may give on 3 crew long haul.

[betpump5]

Well if that's the case, then the vote will be No. Who in their right mind wants to work more for more money? Surely they both cancel each other out.

Unless you are one of these maniacs who wants to work themselves into an early grave aka Pilots- turned- Sim Instructors .

[Captain Dart]

A big 'thank you' to all the training captains, who have helped to dilute our contract. You must feel very proud about having 'given something back'.

[mngmt mole]

As usual, CX management are trying it on. Even if they increased HKPA by 30%, it would barely compensate for the inflation that has occurred since it was introduced, so even a 30% change would only bring it back to where it was to begin with in value. Now they suggest that to bring you back to somewhere even, you have to work more !! What a joke. Chaps/ladies, throw it back in their faces. I think they need to be shown what a complete withdrawal of goodwill looks like. Frankly, I think AT's Friday Flyer comment was an insult to every pilot in this airline who are now obviously being taken for fools. When other airlines are giving their pilots 30% + pay raises, CX is still diddling around with a long overdue change to HKPA. This management is contemptuous.

[MENELAUS]

Re Dart; nice to see AOAE Captains taking training upgrades. Technically they're not bound by the TB. Still, it's nice to see them supporting the cause, all in the spirit of solidarity. The same solidarity that will see them wanting max support over the Man base closure. Sadly, you reap what you sow.

[Cpt. Underpants]

DL (Delta) just announced a USD952 pretax profit for the final quarter of 2016, as well as predicted pretax profit for 2016 of USD6.6 BILLION.

[boxjockey]

And Delta just gave their pilots another 28% raise. Every day I get a little closer.....

box

[Oasis]

Yes, thats a no for me too.
Now they want me to work harder to pay for the mistake others made in signing up with inferior conditions.
No thank you.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Did you think, for a moment, that they actually think we'll go for this idiocy?

They KNOW

The Zero to Hero types are trapped

They KNOW

We'll never trade productivity for HKPA increases

They KNOW

We'll never strike

They KNOW

That SJS will continue to attract low time/no time applicants

They KNOW

That delay, delay, delay is a tactic that WORKS and SAVES MONEY

They KNOW

They screwed up with fuel hedging

They KNOW

That while they have their heads in the trough, the staff will pay for it

They KNOW

That pilots are perceived as being overpaid and underworked

and

They KNOW

That CX owns the press

Stop being surprised. They're not surprised by anything (except the fuel price) and even that's debatable...

[clear.right]

Re Dart; nice to see AOAE Captains taking training upgrades. Technically they're not bound by the TB. Still, it's nice to see them supporting the cause, all in the spirit of solidarity. The same solidarity that will see them wanting max support over the Man base closure. Sadly, you reap what you sow.

Don't forget the 4 AOAC Captains....

[Cavallier]

Maybe the STCs and TCs will write another letter.

[RAT Management]

I am surprised the AOAHK are even talking to the company. Seriously, after the failed TA. The company know what the AOA want. They know the shortcomings of the TA and the RP's and the HKPA. The line is firmly in the sand. They either meet the line or the stale mate continues simple. Oh and at the same time ramp up the court cases against the company on every stinking issue!

[Natca]

Or just strike, makes things alot less messy for us

[buzz box]

Or encourage Check and Trainers to resign from training.

[Shep69]

Boy, the car dealer really must see a few of the folks at CX coming.

"You know, they put that true coat on at the factory"

"Without that true coat you get oxidation"

Jack up the price and then make a 'deal' with an inflated sticker. Oldest trick in the book. It's all pure profit.

Kind of like taking something away then trying to sell it back to you. Or asking for productivity gains after taking something away you used to have.

Good luck !

[Shag Nasty]

Re Dart; nice to see AOAE Captains taking training upgrades. Technically they're not bound by the TB. Still, it's nice to see them supporting the cause, all in the spirit of solidarity. The same solidarity that will see them wanting max support over the Man base closure. Sadly, you reap what you sow.
Globocnik, I am very certain that NO MAN based Captain has taken a training position and if a LHR based Captain has, well they are not supporting the MAN based guys anyway. And for that matter, either is HKAOA. It will be up to the affected crews to fight for themselves, together. So do not try and split the MAN crews with false accusations.....by the way, you won't divide them, as proven 3 years ago....

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

' The AOAE can be assured of our commitment to assisting them and working together in the defence of their members' rights.'

How much more do you want from another Union?

[MENELAUS]

Shaggers. At no stage did I state that Man captains' were taking upgrades. In fact I didn't specify which other than AOAE. Think Hounslow rather than Cheshire and you'll be in a better ballpark. As for "splitting" Man crews. Wtf ? I made no such attempt. Merely stated a fact that can be checked on the master roster if you can be arsed.

[ChinaBeached]

As so well written by Oasis.

The same group who undercut the market & took what others turned down to get the job want to be considered as equals? The same AOA who sat back & did NOTHING because they deemed C-Scale not affecting their T&C's now see what was predicted from day 1: that when C Scale becomes the majority they'll put immense pressure on those T&C's to lower yours to improve theirs?

It's insulting if not so laughable at how the AOA acts. The C-Scale Gen-Y / Melenial attitude however was always easier to read than a pop up kindergarten book. And the AOA? History repeating itself makes for simple predictability & an astonishing lack of accountability.

[wheels up]

And Delta just gave their pilots another 28% raise. Every day I get a little closer.....

Let's put that "raise" in historical context:

The Air Line Pilots Association union at Delta has been pushing for raises to make up for pay cuts of as much as 50 percent that pilots sustained during the company’s financial struggles and bankruptcy a decade ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/business/delta-pilots-vote-to-accept-325-pay-cut.html?_r=0

[DropKnee]

It's better than what the CX pilots are getting. I see guys leave CX for DL. Not the other way around.

[ChinaBeached]

Exactly. Some members of the AOA raised the topic of a Training Ban on C-Scale joiners. This was never actioned let alone advanced for serious discussion by the AOA.

In any culture be it in a professional, personal or a social environment there is typically a senior person or body of more experienced & mature people acknowledged to use their position to save individuals from themselves. Through shear ignorance or arrogance or immaturity or combination of all 3 these idiots signed for C-Scale. The AOA should have slapped the red apple from the witches damn hand. And yet their rhetoric in this HKPA states how these imbecilic C-Scalers have to live like uni students in cramped shared accommodation not befitting their station at CX? What cr@p. It's exactly befitting their station for what they asked to receive, defended receiving & boasted about being in this job they felt they were entitled to. They're not entitled to anything more than they asked / begged & signed for via a legally binding contract.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Listen to you guys. Honestly you are attacking the people at the company who I have seen only have respect for your conditions. Pull your heads out of the sand. Times have changed. They have just an interest in maintaining their conditions as you do. Is it so wrong to want to improve your position.

[Jn14:6]

Sounds like this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxBtGuu9BVE

[mrfox]

Dan Buster, I'm guessing with that rightous tone you are on A-scale then?

[ChinaBeached]

TurningFinal: I've met many C-scale guys. Many I've spoken with accept the package they signed for and more so regret the decision. The occasional one wants to argue that "the times have changed" as an excuse, but in the next breath b!tch about the cost of living, their shared apartment, it's size and how they'll save for the future. "The times have changed" is a pathetic excuse to say cheap is good and the way of the future. But what we're talking about is the undeniable pressure C-Scale has placed on the rest of the pilot body's T&C's. As I've written before, it's prima nota pure & simple. Not "sign or be fired" tactics as they once used as they're more cunning than that now.

Did Mr "McN...." who posted on the iCadet Facebook page seeking nomination to the GC by promising to dissolve B-Scale as soon as possible to better his/their own package respect the pilot body? What of the many who supported him? If not for the exposure on the AOA Forum he may have gotten a seat on the GC. Was this just a fleeting ideal or a genuine aim by the C-Scale community in general? Not what they tell you on the flightdeck but what they say amongst each other. This genius exposed himself and a rotten core.

Fox: I understand your point but it's not the same. B-Scale did not represent a new generation of pilots where ZERO flight time was good enough, an ignorant appreciation of a professional pilot's worth and an arrogant opinion that they'll be part of the "new generation of CX pilot". B-Scale kept the standards high: little to no change from A-Scale. B-Scale was part & parcel of the Sign or be Fired tactic. B-Scale allowed a pilot to still live comfortably and work towards a secure long term financial future. B-Scale allowed a pilot to support a growing family on a single income. C-Scale represents absolutely none of this. B-Scale maintained high standards of recruitment as the CX interview was revered as amongst the toughest in the world to pass. C-Scale bought questions like "Tell me what your parents think about you becoming a pilot" (as quoted from the cadet applicant in this web site). I can't recall a B-Scale SO who came with a few thousand hours of time, most likely >1000 hrs PIC, freezing during a TCAS RA. Pay bananas & you'll get monkeys. Just read though the Cx Wannabe forum on this site. It's insulting to any professional pilot to think that this is the standard CX seeks & attracts.

JN14: You're welcome to your opinion about those who oppose the degradation of pilot T&C's. I don't know whether you and TurningFinal are iCadets. I find it scary that you mock those who fight against the lowering of standards, as well as T&C's. But like I said, you're welcome to your opinion. I hope you look back at this attitude when the axe comes down further by the next wannabe who'll do it for less, when CX demand you start paying for your type ratings, you have to pay for your meals on board, D-Scale gets ushered in, etc, etc. I hope you can raise your sarcastic personality and laugh it off then as well. But it'll never happen to you, right?

[Yonosoy Marinero]

C-Scale bought questions like "Tell me what your parents think about you becoming a pilot"

Presumably right before asking: "Would they let you live with them until you're 35?"

[mngmt mole]

....and then include the wife and kids under that roof :hmm:

[mrfox]

Fox: I understand your point but it's not the same. B-Scale did not represent a new generation of pilots where ZERO flight time was good enough, an ignorant appreciation of a professional pilot's worth and an arrogant opinion that they'll be part of the "new generation of CX pilot". B-Scale kept the standards high: little to no change from A-Scale. B-Scale was part & parcel of the Sign or be Fired tactic. B-Scale allowed a pilot to still live comfortably and work towards a secure long term financial future. B-Scale allowed a pilot to support a growing family on a single income. C-Scale represents absolutely none of this. B-Scale maintained high standards of recruitment as the CX interview was revered as amongst the toughest in the world to pass. C-Scale bought questions like "Tell me what your parents think about you becoming a pilot" (as quoted from the cadet applicant in this web site). I can't recall a B-Scale SO who came with a few thousand hours of time, most likely >1000 hrs PIC, freezing during a TCAS RA. Pay bananas & you'll get monkeys. Just read though the Cx Wannabe forum on this site. It's insulting to any professional pilot to think that this is the standard CX seeks & attracts.



One question ChinaBeach - do you think you would've been good enough to qualify to join on A-scale back in the day?

[Natca]

And you wonder why our union is so weak? Support our members and pilots as a whole, yes the contract changes suck but they are a product of the green monster. If you want to fix things or turn this place around the answer is unity. Remember the brotherhood of a union scope is not just for current members but also for future members.

[McNugget]

Quite.

Those that are thinking of voting no to the current motion, need to stop and think about what will happen in the short & medium term if this motion doesn't pass.

That isn't a threatening statement, but rightly or wrongly the motion is out there, and not a single good thing can come if it's failing. But, plenty of bad can.

[Michael Hunt]

If you sell your soul to CX just make sure the price is right.
If you look at the goings on at Wed. meeting of our 360 best and brightest I think you will come to the conclusion that nothing good will come of this place going forward.
Worst case scenario is that it won't exist in 5 years time.
So my humble advice is treat it as a stepping stone gig, tough it out until you've got some real experience to find something better. Like the bad old days before cadetships etc.
Trying to get HKPA up to anywhere near he levels to live a reasonable life in HK is simply not going to happen.

[ChinaBeached]

Fox:- I can't answer that to be fair. But I can tell you I studied like a man possessed & had to bring in the thousands of hours flight time experience to stand a chance to be able to answer questions that went well above what the current requirements are. Same with the flight assessment and just like the rest of the B-Scale pilot's did.

My point as mentioned above & opinion remains the same.

[Pedalz]

ChinaBeached,

So after 'turning down the job', you practiced what you preached, you took the mature and intelligent path and spent a large portion of your spare time over the next seven years pulling yourself on an anonymous forum. The same ten guys on here spinning the same broken record is the reason most CX pilots don't even bother reading this part of the site. Whoever is responsible for moderating it, especially before the last TA should be ashamed.

I completely agree, the quality of the local cadets leaves a lot to be desired but there are also guys joining with previous experience. Cadet programmes have been around for over 50 years at mainline carriers and they won't be disappearing soon.

C scalers are quickly becoming or already are the majority. If we wanted to stop CoS99, 08 etc. it should have been nipped in the bud when it happened.

For those that actually work here, remember who the real enemy is. 25 year housing, HKPA and RP's will continue to be bundled. Time for all the unions to come back together and dig their heels in collectively.

Or you can continue to waste your life on here and spin your wheels...

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Exactly pedalz, its time we all come together as a collective. The C scalers I have spoken to want to maintain expat benefits but I have gathered from a few that they wish to be treated with respect from other crew. Calling C scalers brushwingers, iCadets and useless creates a divide amongst the pilot body. If you don't respect them how can you expect those same people to respect you and your conditions. C-scale is here to stay but now is the time to prevent further degradation of conditions for all pilot groups, but it will only be achieved through unity. So the next time you fly with a new SO and wish to complain on here about his/her experience how about instead you take them under your wing and teach them a few things. They will respect you for it and it may just be your saving grace.
Our SOs are keen so treat them with the respect they deserve and they will do the same for you

[ChinaBeached]

And again, Pedalz: you're welcome to your opinion. So it's amusing that you see yourself above "pulling yourself" because your opinion about so many topics is deemed worthy yet others' not - just going by your illustrious holier than thou opinions / past posts on this site.

Yes, I walked away. I did what you wish others would & what you most likely "pull yourself" over a beer at the pub when discussing T&C's with your buddies. "I'm going to...." but you never do. You say "Thank you" & lube up for the next "you're welcome".

Some stand up for themselves & defend against utter bull$hit. Others find excuses to accept & justify it. Respect? You want myself & others in the wider airline world (not just CX) to respect those who contribute to the detriment of the industry? Nah mate. I don't have the ignorant audacity to ask for a sh!t sandwich, beg to eat it, defend the right to eat, sign a contract to do so & then demand a lobster roll.

Cadetships have been around for a very long time. The CX cadetship, as defined by your hero RH, quoted it as it's sole purpose to provide an avenue for HK locals into aviation (CX). It was then turned into a method to pay less for pilots when they opened it up to the global market. So stop saying that "cadetships have been around for 50 years" to defend the indefensible. To compare CX's money grab cadetship scheme as equivalent to anything remotely reputable is ridiculous. Even you can't deny that.

A united AOA? Impossible. You're all too factioned & greedy to think of anyone but yourselves. History is the greatest indicator here. Warham wrote about it & nothing has changed. So forgive me for not joining you for a self defiling session so you can slap each other over the raping of a once great airline.

The "real enemy" as you put it is greed. Spineless greed to look after yourselves first & foremost. If you want 25 year housing go out & get it. Go on. What's stopping you?? It's a united pilot body to activly & vigorously defend what is yours that is stopping you. But you'll just sit back & say "I'm going to...." do abso-effing-lutely nothing. So stop pulling yourself about who the real enemy is when you have an intimate chat with him in the mirror every day. Do what I did. Go on. Walk away. We both know you won't. Accusing others of "pulling themselves" by exposing the truth cuts too close & easier to name call & cower into the shadows.

TurningFinal: which C-Scaler respected my experience, my efforts, my > decade of pursuit to achieve a goal? Name 1. You want equality but have ZERO concept of the term, what it means or the humility required to do so. The numbers of C-Scale members at CX will & has turned you / them into bullies. They want a level playing field when they cr@pped on the airline, the industry & colleagues to get the seat. Respect? They don't know the meaning of the word let alone application.

".....how about instead you take them under your wing and teach them a few things. They will respect you for it and it may just be your saving grace."

So the real pilots need to find ways to earn respect from C-Scale iCadets?? You really are that obnoxious & conceipted? "Saving grace"? You have to be kidding!!? How about shutting up, stop moaning about the contract you begged for, stop telling everyone how you're going to Emirates & stop the rot about being hard done by. You're getting exactly the contract you signed.

[Dilbert68]

I don't have the ignorant audacity to ask for a sh!t sandwich, beg to eat it, defend the right to eat, sign a contract to do so & then demand a lobster roll.

How about shutting up, stop moaning about the contract you begged for, stop telling everyone how you're going to Emirates & stop the rot about being hard done by. You're getting exactly the contract you signed.

Well played sir :D

[nike]

"...I don't have the ignorant audacity to ask for a sh!t sandwich, beg to eat it, defend the right to eat, sign a contract to do so & then demand a lobster roll.

How about shutting up, stop moaning about the contract you begged for, stop telling everyone how you're going to Emirates & stop the rot about being hard done by. You're getting exactly the contract you signed..."

One more time.

[mrfox]

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/pot-calling-kettle-black-9416841.jpg

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Don't let the managers make you believe they don't want a deal anymore.
They do!

Training ban is still hurting. We have more 350/777 coming. The 4 or 5 ***** who joined training won't change much.

Negotiation 101: don't show your cards. Of course they'll say there's no money anymore. They make it look like it's ops normal. It isn't. Training flights get cancelled, it still takes 6 months for a JFO upgrade.

Let's not accept any RP deal that does not meet our standards.

Chinebeached: I wish the icadets had followed your path and said NO when they had a choice. It would have helped everyone and firstly themselves.
I have far more respect for you than for the ones joining on a contract they know is ****e then complain about it a day into the job.

[Sea Eggs]

Hey Anna, I have another idea for you. Let the ab initio cadets to pay for their training like European airlines are doing.

[ChinaBeached]

Zapp - thanks for the sentiments.

Warham's book goes into great detail about the negotiation process and the tactics required not to mention the preparation required to even be a negotiator. CX employee teams of specially qualified people to do this on their behalf so why should the AOA not do the same? I hope they do yet the outcomes seem to only go in 1 direction.

I wish you and your colleagues only the best of luck going forward: and you make your own luck in this world. As you can see on this forum though there are already too many who are still only concerned for their own self interests and don't believe in resisting what is not right in front of their noses. Warham wrote that the only way to protect your future is to safeguard the present. By letting C-Scale come in with little more than a pathetic whimper the AOA screwed the future due their incredibly self satisfying myopic view.

[Trafalgar]

Too true Curtain. Another enduring farce hoisted upon us by the company. Well, the stalemate will continue. They are abjectly the most arrogant and bloody minded incompetents that this industry has ever seen. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

[Ipad]

Curtain and Traf, care to explain when RPs were ever a part of our COS?

[Pain]

We agreed to a COS containing a negotiated Rostering Practice with a 90-day out clause either side could exercise and with no stipulation of what might occur if one side opted out.

He smart are we? We may not like it or want it. But the Company did exactly what we agreed to - the opted out.

[BlunderBus]

So long as you insist on being a pussy they will whip you

[Trafalgar]

Curtain Rod. You are correct. 47% of our membership are too ignorant or plain stupid to insist on an ironclad contract. We are also faced with a similar scenario regarding the seniority issue for the new CMP. There is only one system that is transparent and devoid of corruption, and that is the strict seniority system. My guess is the same members that can't see the sense in CC will also not realise the importance of establishing a strict seniority system regarding rostering. If you sell the long term benefits of this profession for short term gain, you will forever live within a career that is compromised and miserable.

[Trafalgar]

No, I think that, much as they sold short their original career terms for a short term gain, they will now also sell short their long term career gains that come with a proper seniority system. :ugh:

[McNugget]

No, I think that, much as they sold short their original career terms for a short term gain, they will now also sell short their long term career gains that come with a proper seniority system. :ugh:

Why wouldn't they, if they don't want to hang around for the duration?

Strict seniority for me, but when you consider other based guys or categories with no relative seniority movement and those that don't plan to stay, it may turn out a closer vote than we would like.

Anyhow, I think the rules coded in to the system are going to have a bigger impact over the course of a career. It has the potential to be very effective. But, that requires the system being allowed to work as designed. And more "orthodox" manning levels.

[bm330]

There's nothing to choose. We're not at the table. The Based guys are determining the new system.

[cxorcist]

What happens if the based guys end up negotiating something many times better than what we have right now? We going to stay mad at the Company and hate the based AOAs more than we already do? We going to pound our fists in the sand, since we are not sitting at a table to pound, and declare ourselves outraged that such injustices could be imposed upon us? What happens to CC, the TB, and sickness rates then? Surely CX is counting on this. No???

[GTC58]

Based guys also have a Collective Bargaining Agreement which is protected by law and includes the RP's. It can only be changed by negotiation and member vote. Bases are now also protected by law, meaning CX has to stop flying to those bases before they are able to close them. I do not think that "keeping their base" has any influence what the "based guys" have in mind while negotiating CMP, rather then what its unions memberships want to see in the new CMP. IMHO the HKAOA is disadvantaging itself, having decided not to participate in the CMP negotiations. The reality is that the the so called "based guys" will negotiate the new CMP/RP's as required by law and CX will amend the HK COS accordingly. I am sure everyone would prefer the HKAOA to participate in those CMP negotiations. Lets face it CC in Hong Kong did not achieve anything or very little, looking back the past years. Maybe its time for the HKAOA to re-evaluate their position, either escalate their industrial action or end CC. I believe with the current state of affairs time is not in favour of the HKAOA and its members, things might get worse before getting better and from a business point of view a fleet reduction rather then expansion is seen by many analysts as the only viable option. In case of a fleet reduction, Contract Compliance is absolute useless and protecting officers on the bottom of the seniority list will be hard for the HKAOA, if the relationship with management remains confrontational.

[GTC58]

First of all I am not blaming anyone. In regards of Manchester, the UK has no CBA. As far as I know only Australia, Canada and the USA have a CBA.

As far as the RP's go, I was under the impression that the CMP negotiations are actually all about negotiating a new set of RP's.

I am just saying that it might be advantageous for the HKAOA to be part of the CMP negotiations as the result will be a set of new RP's.

[Liam Gallagher]

GTC58,

I assume you are not a member of the HKAOA or AOAE. If you are, you should be ashamed that you have allowed yourself to become so uninformed.

1. The EU based pilots have a fully enforceable employment contract which covers base closure and redundancy. In respect of these two issues, the COS is not hugely different to the AOAC, USAOA and AAOA contracts, which is not surprising given that we all share a common seniority list and PBPA.

2. The EU based pilots are covered by UK employment law, irrespective of what may be in their contracts the Company will have to comply with UK law. There is no point "willy waving" what may or may not be in US/Canadian law, these guys are UK based.

3. The CMP is about building a Roster System. This doesn't necessarily lead to new RPS for anyone. Changes to RPs will only be needed if the CMS conflicts with RPs. Take a moment to read RPs, no matter which base you are on, the RPs are pretty vague and should the company wish to, they can probably circumvent RPs. What they can't circumvent anywhere (HK included) are the pay provisions. If you really are in the HKAOA, read some of the excellent stuff being written by the Australian CMP reps.... Very illuminating for all !!

4. Local laws require the Canadians and Australians to engage in good faith talks. However, the Company has set the bar pretty low as to what ".good faith talks" look like. Rather than suggest AOAE and HKAOA raise the white flag, why not suggest the other 3 unions show a bit of pilot unity and show up to the talks with folded arms and just stare at the two empty seats marked AOAE and HKAOA!! I'll leave you to decide if any of these slogans are appropriate;

United we stand; divided we fall.
The Company can only divide us if we let them.
Turkeys voting for Xmas.
Every based pilot is just a base closure away from being HK based.
Every based FO is just a Command course away from being HK based.
There is more that binds Cathay pilots together than separates us.

Fraternally.....

[GTC58]

Liam

What's with all this hostility. I just pointed out that the U.K. does not have a CBA, collective bargaining agreement. That's all. I never said your contract is not enforceable. I believe you still have COS08, while the other 3 basings areas negotiated and ratified a new CBA. I never implied anything else.

[Farman Biplane]

How did that HKPA into CC vote end?

[SloppyJoe]

It has been added to CC/TB

[Farman Biplane]

Perhaps we should put SHP into CC/TB as well, and all the other issues?

[Trafalgar]

Anotherday. Your continuing optimism and sunny outlook is comforting and appreciated. :hmm:

[VendeeGlobe]

As is your unwavering hypocrisy Trafalgar....

[Will IB Fayed]

Goal posts moved. Well done HKAOA.

[McNugget]

As is your unwavering hypocrisy Trafalgar....

Quite.

The squeakiest wheel in the forum; and there are often good points in the ranting. Alas, it's all just bluster.

[pacflyer7]

Trafalgar and Anotherday you forget that we got offered HKPA deals twice before it was put in the TA last year but the AOA chose not to let us vote on that. So what did you expect was going to happen...

Anotherday, putting everyone in the same boat I see? all C scale joiners are 1-2 years into aviation? doubt it, before you go saying this crap do some research and don't come misinformed. I personally have spent 5-10 years in GA and came to CX with 5000hrs, many are the same now but you chose to not see this? Maybe some respect for the new joiners might get you some respect back.

Why are you even commenting on the HKPA forum if it doesn't affect you?

[ChinaBeached]

5000 hrs TT & 5-10 years in aviation (GA) and you saw the CX iCadet C-Scale as a smart career move? That says more about the person than anything else. Boasting about such time yet only good enough for the CX C-Scale iCadetship isn't something to be proud of fella!!

"I've been at university for 10 years!" What? Completing a 3 year Arts Degree & wondering why reputable companies who offer real salaries to remunerate real professionals didn't come knocking?? You don't get it do you?

"It doesn't affect you...." What an ignorant & arrogant opinion. That's up there with saying the price of oil in Saudi Arabia doesn't affect the fuel a person puts in their car in Singapore.

And you demand respect? Your existence & intense defence of what you proudly applied to receive (C-Scale) places a severe and undeniable pressure on all other pilots at CX. Just because a disgraceful salary & its contract was all you could muster as a career serves no right to bring the others down, despite what so many ignorant compatriots of yours believe. And you have the audacity to converse about "respect"? Your arrogant existence to place undeniable pressure to take money from other pilots, their families & degrade the profession & you want "respect"?

But you will. And you'll defend your right to. And think that you're some doyan of a professional pilot by screwing your betters over. (And yes, they are better. They earned a job & a remuneration package that you couldn't comprehend). They see what you can't & refuse to: the future.

You ignorant & arrogant gen-Y / millennial types want to complain against what you asked for, begged for & defended your right to have. Pathetic.

[pacflyer7]

China, Yet again you guys think you know it all! I was not boasting at all merely defending the SO group when another day says we all have little time and 1-2 years in our careers. So yes if another day had actually respected some of the SO's enough to have a chat on the flight deck he would realise he is wrong.

Now, I could have gone to a lot of places but I did my research. You say the C scale is pathetic? you clearly have not done your research! Where would you go? oh I should just stay in oz not flying a Jet long haul when that is what I actually want to do because it will upset the older guys at CX? now who is being arrogant?

Your way of personally attacking someone shows the type of person you are! you do not know me or what I have done to get my career to where I have (as pathetic as you may think that is).

At what point did you hear me complain about my package?

[arse]

A LOSE/LOSE conversation.

[pacflyer7]

Arse, unfortunately you're right. You're allowed to have a opinion as long as it's the same as theirs right?

[mtc]

Thanks pacflyer for some truth. With that experience you/we also got a check for 100,000 US for joining. Enticing, yes.

Why is it looked so bad upon for trying to improve our package? I know what I signed up for and now given the opportunity will try to improve it! F*** me right?

[coconutrough]

Ugh that Chinabeached guy sounds like a right tosser. Meet you at Stauntons in an hour old mate for a beer and a tap on the beak

[McNugget]

Ugh that Chinabeached guy sounds like a right tosser.

What's fabulous is that he is still ranting on here, a decade after his interview. Long, insulting rants coupled with a bit of self-promotion. He is the epitome of a loser. I'm amazed he hasn't been sectioned yet, and I know some of our more seasoned brethren have contacted him out of concern for his mental state.

I will miss him when the inevitable happens.

[pacflyer7]

China, you really are a miserable person aren't you? It's a forum which many type from their phones so I apologise I offended you with my ill use of capital letters.

The question remains, are you at CX? helping others get into other reputable airlines?

Your'e right I quoted about making our position better, of course when its offered! I never complained about the current package but why should I decline an offered increase?

Also being a forum you should think about trying to expose who people are and calling them idiots when you clearly don't know them. If you'd like to PM me and tell me more about myself go ahead but please remember to tell me who you are, or too scared?

We are all allowed to speak our opinion as are you. It's a forum for HKPA...

I did my research yes and no this wasn't the only place that would take me, for me the whole package is about more than work which is why I chose here. Thats right yes I enjoy my life in Hong Kong.

[coconutrough]

Hahaha yep he's a real loser alright. Do us all a favour and take your 'superior skills' elsewhere. If truth be told, this clown probably works hard just to get 3's in his PC's. Empty cans make the loudest noise, so on and so forth. Ugh give me a break you moron haha

[ChinaBeached]

A rebuttal from 3 likeminded C-Scalers who exist only as the dregs left over from what others refused to accept & what you lapped up and said thank you for.

I use facts and your own histories to argue against you. You haven't the same ability.

iPhones, tablets - whatever. Ignorance is as ignorance does. Each of you argue for your right to cr@p on your colleagues for your own gain. One of you is illiterate, but that's the phone's fault? What next? The Pokemon stole your Vol-8?

Your career will forever be marked as a C-Scale iCadet who took a low-life package that others refused to accept. Unions throughout the world have a name for that.

Loser? In the eyes of the likes of you 3 that's a compliment. I've never sh!t on my colleagues, never undercut the market to get a job, never looked to benefit at the expense of others. If my character wouldn't be accepted in your clique then thank you! If you classify yourselves as winners for how your career exists then all the more pathetic shame. My career will never be stained as yours forever is.

Let's see if I can be right again about the implications of C-Scale. Let's see what you do to your colleagues in the near future, say over the next 3-5 years.

Now lets see this fight for your HKPA and the ramifications to the wider pilot body? CX bought the lowest ebb of the wannabe world so what makes you think they see you deserving of more than you bent over to receive in the first place? And you think Swire have a history of giving away money when they don't have to? When the likes of you ignorant self serving and arrogant fools exist to take what they offer in the first place? Only at the expense of your colleagues will you benefit. You know that but you don't care.

(And McScab - yes you are. I've seen your posts and I've seen your replies. You deny it here but not there. In fact you argued to dig yourself out of a hole once exposed even after being called out).

[pacflyer7]

So you can post without checking your spelling but I'm uneducated for a mistake? (Yes I saw it).

I dont even know why you began this argument? do you? I have never tried to undercut my colleagues. I never once said or tried to do anything of the sort, neither do any of the people I know.

I was simply correcting the fact that there are plenty of joiners with significant experience not so little as was said.

The "fact" is that this is a HKPA forum, so us on HKPA are entitled to comment and have an opinion.

[McNugget]

A rebuttal from 3 likeminded C-Scalers who exist only as the dregs left over from what others refused to accept & what you lapped up and said thank you for.

I use facts and your own histories to argue against you. You haven't the same ability.

iPhones, tablets - whatever. Ignorance is as ignorance does. Each of you argue for your right to cr@p on your colleagues for your own gain. One of you is illiterate, but that's the phone's fault? What next? The Pokemon stole your Vol-8?

Your career will forever be marked as a C-Scale iCadet who took a low-life package that others refused to accept. Unions throughout the world have a name for that.

Loser? In the eyes of the likes of you 3 that's a compliment. I've never sh!t on my colleagues, never undercut the market to get a job, never looked to benefit at the expense of others. If my character wouldn't be accepted in your clique then thank you! If you classify yourselves as winners for how your career exists then all the more pathetic shame. My career will never be stained as yours forever is.

Let's see if I can be right again about the implications of C-Scale. Let's see what you do to your colleagues in the near future, say over the next 3-5 years.

Now lets see this fight for your HKPA and the ramifications to the wider pilot body? CX bought the lowest ebb of the wannabe world so what makes you think they see you deserving of more than you bent over to receive in the first place? And you think Swire have a history of giving away money when they don't have to? When the likes of you ignorant self serving and arrogant fools exist to take what they offer in the first place? Only at the expense of your colleagues will you benefit. You know that but you don't care.

(And McScab - yes you are. I've seen your posts and I've seen your replies. You deny it here but not there. In fact you argued to dig yourself out of a hole once exposed even after being called out).
You can think whatever makes you happy. You're wrong, again. I, however, am correct in calling you a loser.

Please keep coming back. And while you're at it, tell us where you work again?

Oh, yeah...

[ChinaBeached]

Pac: first & foremost this is a public forum. Whilst you may think you need to live in Neverland before being permitted to read the book or comment, that's not quite the case on "public" forum.

I (re)entered this debate as I wished to comment & expose your arrogance. You believe, as you've written it more than once, that only those on the HKPA may comment. No, sorry! Are "entitled" to comment. Whilst you think entitlement is by virtue of arrogance, it's not. Your ignorant efforts to demand more than what you contractually applied to receive, begged to receive, & then defend to receive is pathetic. The B-Scale pilot's are fighting for only what they are contractually entitled to &/or what has been agreed to in prior official negotiations. Yet you with your C-Scale contract that you've been in HK for what? 12 months (going by your interview date as you broadcast on the wannabe forum)? Yet you use the words "entitled"?

Then you boast of your illustrious experience which CX deem you good enough only to be in the same pool as < 500 hr kids. How proud you must be.

Lastly, I commented because you as well as Larry & Moe believe that your efforts to demand a better remuneration package has no bearing on the rest of the pilot body. That they're not "entitled" to comment. Your existence is a serious & undeniable threat to their COS. But you don't see it nor care.

McFly other other hand, he's done more than enough to warrant his own reputation. Tell you where I work? Why? You think I'll submit a CV for you?

So what's wrong with wanting to better your own remuneration package you ask? Nothing. But you simply can't polish a t^rd.

[McNugget]

Yes, CB, that's right; I would like you to submit a CV for you, because I'd like nothing more than to share a workplace with you.

Actually, no. I'd like to know who you're working for, because I'll guarantee that despite your mighty aviation prowess, I'll wager your contract is rubbish.

[ChinaBeached]

It really is pathetic when a C-Scale fool sees his package as amongst the best in world. You seriously are that remarkably lost in self adornment of the crumbs you scoff at as a bottom-feeder. And think it's a 5 star meal....

Where I work is a place you haven't the experience or credentials to even apply for.

[Starbear]

Trafalgar and Anotherday you forget that we got offered HKPA deals twice before it was put in the TA last year but the AOA chose not to let us vote on that. So what did you expect was going to happen...

Anotherday, putting everyone in the same boat I see? all C scale joiners are 1-2 years into aviation? doubt it, before you go saying this crap do some research and don't come misinformed. I personally have spent 5-10 years in GA and came to CX with 5000hrs, many are the same now but you chose to not see this? Maybe some respect for the new joiners might get you some respect back.

Why are you even commenting on the HKPA forum if it doesn't affect you?

SO you did 5 to 10 years GA flying. You don't know which? Was it 5 or was it 10? Or 7 or 5.5 or 9.725. 5 years = 1,000 hrs/Year whereas 10 years = 500/year. Which is it? We have a right to know.

[McNugget]

It really is pathetic when a C-Scale fool sees his package as amongst the best in world. You seriously are that remarkably lost in self adornment of the crumbs you scoff at as a bottom-feeder. And think it's a 5 star meal....

Where I work is a place you haven't the experience or credentials to even apply for.

I didn't say anything of the sort. However, I don't know of many airlines in the world that I don't qualify for, residency issues aside.

So, big shot, which outfit have you blessed with your presence? I'm all ears.

[coconutrough]

Hahaha ChinaBeached you win. Bravo sir, bravo! I'll buy you a beer any time you should find yourself in the NT ;)

[bogie30]

Well done China.

[CowardlyPilot]

I love how this forum brings pilots together. Sometimes I think is was developed by managers to allow the pilots to sabotage themselves.

The divide grows with every hateful word said of this thread.

Good job.

[boxjockey]

And what amazing entertainment it IS!! I found myself reaching for the popcorn where there was none!! Stupendous!

box

[ChinaBeached]

Couldn't agree more. The truth is often better than fiction.

Enjoy the popcorn fellas! (For those who can afford it).

And here's a special little snippet from "keen84" who has or will most likely join CX & the AOA to fight for his HKPA soon enough (refer the wannabe forum):

"Hey guys,
I ve been going thro the thread, u guys r doin a gr8 job here!
I m one amongst u guys who applied recently! My ques is whts wit the website??? Has thr been any movement out thr? Coz as u all knw the website says "To be advised around Sep 2009"
Plz advise!
Cheers!!"

Go get 'em tiger! You & McScrewYouOver can share a bunk bed together Step Brothers style. Going by the date he's probably considering a TCAS RA as we speak!

Pac & McNotButisNulty: he has < 500 hrs. He's just as qualified for your job as you are. Stay proud fellas!

[raven11]

Thanks for the entertainment Chinabeached....
The snippet above from "keen84" speaks volumes for what has happened to an airline that was once renowned for its pilot pool.