RT waffel

[englishal]

Why don't ATC units pass your details on to the next ATC unit while flying VFR in the UK (or most of the time anyway)? ....a sort of VFR flight following......Its would save a lot of waffel on the airwaves. For example, you are talking to XYZ radar, and when you leave him / her they may 'recommend' you contact someone else. If they passed on your details it'd save an awful lot of messing around and 'passing your message'. You could cut down

'G-XXXX is a PA28 from XXXX to XXXX, routing XXXX 2 miles south of blahdeblah altitdude XXXX heading XXXX estimate XXX at XX request XYZ'

to

"G-XXXX with you 3000' level heading 270" or "G-XXXX with you, 3000' estimate XYZ at XX"

or something similar. If they then want an estimate or position report then they can ask for it. Some people say that US RT is bad, but yesterday afternoon I just had to laugh at the 'quality' of the RT on the airwaves....(especially at the posh bloke on a flight plan who decided to divert without telling anyone)

Cheers
EA:D

[GoneWest]

Why don't ATC units pass your details on to the next ATC unit

In my experience - they do.....and you can tell. If the controller you are talking to says "CONTACT XYZ", they HAVE passed the details - if they say "FREECALL XYZ", they have not - for whatever reason.

It may come down to what service you have ASKED for - as to what service you get.

[capt_sparky]

It will also depend on how busy the ATC unit is.

[englishal]

In my experience, if you are VFR then nearly always they don't pass your details, but get you to freecall or recommend you freecall XYZ.....

Cheers
EA;)

[Keef]

I find that if they KNOW you're going to call the next unit down the line, or if you're in IMC and need the service, they often will pass on your details.

If you're bimbling under VFR and not in any great need of radar service, you'll get the "freecall".

In theory (ha!) it takes the controller just as long to pass your details over his telephone as it does for you to pass them to the next controller by radio.

That doesn't always apply, of course. For those who tell their life history when calling a radar unit, or who were taught one of the longwinded mnemonics like CARPHACERIDGQ then try the short call - who are you? where are you? what do you want?

[TheKentishFledgling]

Keef:

"I find that if they KNOW you're going to call the next unit down the line they often will pass on your details. "

How would they know you're going to be calling a certain ATSU (VFR I mean, not IFR)? I guess if you've filed a FPL which has a routing they might be able to know, but how else would they?
Maybe if in your inital call to them you said you'd be "routing through XXXXX's overhead etc etc...." then they also might know that you will likely be talking to XXXXX.

How did you mean?

tKF

[Whirlybird]

When I flew up the east coast everyone passed on our details - one of the MATZes to Teeside to Newcastle to Scottish Info to Edinburgh etc. But I've rarely known them do it anywhere else. I suspect it may be because everywhere else there's quite a choice of who to talk to, but I don't actually know. But yes, it does save a lot of clogging up the air waves.

[niknak]

If you are under a Radar Advisory (IFR) or Radar Information Service (IFR or VFR), then we'll always try and hand you over to the next radar unit.
All the silences you may get when you make a transmission are not just the atco refusing to talk to you, usually they're on the telephone coordinating.

If you're under a Flight Information Service, you'll not be positively identified, and you're quite likely to be one of many aircraft in the vicinity, most which will be squawking 7000.
Aircraft operating under a FIS will not usually be handed over due to the time involved in making the telephone call and passing on all the details, added to which, the pilot has no obligation to then contact the next atc unit.
There are odd exceptions to this, (aircraft operating over the sea to/from the UK etc).

A visit to your local radar equipped atc unit will open your eyes.;)

[QDMQDMQDM]

All the silences you may get when you make a transmission are not just the atco refusing to talk to you, usually they're on the telephone coordinating.

niknak,

What with all this 'ere technology about these days, you'd have thought the air traffic control system would have an electronic messaging system in place for passing on details. Is something like that planned? Makes more sense than the telephone.

QDM

[eyeinthesky]

QDMQDMQDM

That would require all the possible units being connected to the same system to ensure that they all got the correct data. That would cost a lot of money! Are you prepared to pay for that as well as tax on AVGAS?!

It took my employers 6 years longer than they thought and £623m to have a stab at that with varying degrees of success, and that is only in the known environment of IFR in Controlled Airspace.

We still have to phone coordinations to other units as well because they are not on the same system or because the computer has already passed the details and will not accept any changes.

I think you'll have to perfect your patter for passing the salient details by R/T!!

[QDMQDMQDM]

That would require all the possible units being connected to the same system to ensure that they all got the correct data.

It's essential, though, isn't it? And inevitable? I work in the NHS and eventually they will get around to having a universal electronic patient record so that you can go into any health centre or hospital in the country and your records can be called up.

Might take a while, though. ;)

QDM

[Keef]

tKF

How do they know? I tell them!

If I call a radar unit and ask for a FIS, and don't give any routing information, I won't expect any handover to the next unit. Might get it on occasion, but that's unusual.

If I tell them my routing - including the name of the next radar area(s) - and particularly if I ask for RIS, it's pretty likely.

I don't ask for RAS if I'm in VMC, because that makes both me and the Controller very busy.

If you're in the USA, and file a VFR flight plan, you can ask for and get "flight following" the whole way, complete with handovers. You also get a squawk at the start that stays with you the whole way. That is fabulous! It only breaks down when the weather gets a bit messy and they get too busy as folks change to IFR.

But that's a different system, and we aren't going to get anything like that here in my lifetime. Despite the busy airspace, the UK doesn't have enough controllers to do it - or the will to do it, maybe.

[Chilli Monster]

QDM

The electronic messaging system is a nice idea, but as others have pointed out a) you have to pay for it and b) you have to pay someone to input the data.

The average LARS unit is a one man band. Controller doing the job, writing down the data, doing handovers et al. It's often not a room with banks of radar consoles - it's a regional airfield with one and maybe (subject to their own inbounds/outbounds) two consoles manned - but more often than not just the one. That's one person doing arrivals, departures and LARS plus landline comms. It then becomes a case of proritisation - Radar services get the details passed, FIS sometimes (not always) don't.

Without a huge inject in cash what you have is what you've got.

CM

[Hairyplane]

I always find Brize and Lyneham helpful - thanks guys!

However, on busy days it can be a little disconcerting whilst flying between them on a FIS - having explained your routing through BOTH zones - that you are asked to freecall.

In practice, you find youself chewing your nails waiting to get on the air to do exactly that. The zones aren't that far apart.

I am sure that a visit will indeed find pots of broom-grease and manuals on one-armed paperhanging so no disrespect guys - tough job. Just an observation!

[englishal]

and file a VFR flight plan, you can ask for and get "flight following"

Don't even have to file a flight plan, just ask for it. Beauty of VFR FF is that once you have made contact with the controller, you are automatically cleared through any class C airspace enroute. If its inconvienient to transit certain class C airspace, the controller will hand you off to the Class C airport tower, and the controller will probably vector you around and about a bit....then hand you back to Tracon / Centre to resume FF.

Back on the subject of....

That would require all the possible units being connected to the same system

What is the Air traffic fixed telecommunications network (or whatever its called) then? Is it just a phone system?

Cheers
EA;)

[foghorn]

There is a report on the DETR's wesite at the moment regarding the future of LARS - it recommends that LARS is expanded so that there are dedicated freestanding units in busy areas (ie. units that aren't primarily radar approach control at aerodromes).

However the cost of providing these will be high, notwithstanding the the fact that there is already a shortage of qualified ATCOs in Europe.

Basically HM government doesn't want to pay for the system, GA doesn't want to pay any more additional costs, and
the airlines (who currently pay for LARS via their IFR route charges) want to scale back their contribution, claiming that they receive little benefit from LARS.

It's amazing that the government that wasted £1 billion on a big white tent in Greenwich will not pay £6million a year for an obvious safety benefit.

Don't hold your breath, though.
foggy.

[Chilli Monster]

Hairyplane

Can't speak for Brize but Lyneham is slightly different to the one man band system that civil units work to. Weekdays they will have a zone controller, approach controller, director, and talkdown. Weekends it will be approach and zone. Plus an assistant in there too.

Brize will be similar, but often with a capacity to open up two consoles on the Brize Radar side too - oh for that kind of staffing ;)

Englishal

The AFTN is the teletype system that transmits flightplan data and other airmove messages, not the phone system.

CM

[ATCbabe]

englishal,

Vfr details are often passed onto adjoining units by ATC. I always like to give my colleagues a "heads up" on what traffic is going to transit through their airspace.
However, wether or not I have time to pass on these details is another matter. As a radar controller my first priority is to sequence my ifr a/c and provide a service to my RAS a/c. Next in line is a/c under a RIS and last of all to a/c under a FIS.
If I am busy with other a/c then, I am sorry to say, it is the FIS a/c that will lose out and passing vfr overflight details to another unit is very low priority, especially when as all ready stated, there is no requirement for such a/c to contact the next unit if in class E/F/G airspace. Numerous times i have passed vfr details only to tell the a/c to "contact xx" and to be told back that they are changing their routing and going to contact zz instead. Not only is it a wasted phone call in the first place but then you have to call the adjacent unit again and tell them to bin the details!
Even if you do have the time to pass on details, the receiving unit may not have the time to copy them. If you are busy the last thing you want to do is take a phone call with such details and often you will just tell the controller to tell the a/c to freecall.
If you file a vfr flight plan before departing then all units along the way get details through the AFTN system and this again reduces the details you have to pass. There is nothing worse than a pilot giving his lifes history on the R/T!!
:mad:
As already stated even if the R/T is quiet it often means that we are on the phone. We have to do a lot of coordination for both vfr and ifr flights. Phones are constantly ringing in my ears, but a phone call in my opinion is much better than trying to do such coordination over "electronic methods". At least with a phone call you know that coordination has been effected and that everyone knows what is happening. That way things stay safe which at the end of the day is what its all about.

[englishal]

There is nothing worse than a pilot giving his lifes history on the R/T!!

Ho ho, I quite agree!:p

Thanks for the inside info.
EA;)

[White Shadow]

My VFR call says -

who I am; where I am; my height & QNH; my destination/route; what service I'd like.

Military controllers in the Southwest are efficient & helpful.
Some nice WAAF/WRNS voices, too.

WS

[ATCbabe]

White Shadow,

If only a few more vfr pilots were like you!!:p

That is all the details that I need to provide you with a FIS/RIS. You would be surprised at how long it can take me to drag all the required information out of some pilots!!:(

Almost as bad as the life story ones ;) ;)

[niknak]

STAND UP - SPEAK UP - SHUT UP....... ;)

[Chilli Monster]

If you file a vfr flight plan before departing then all units along the way get details through the AFTN system and this again reduces the details you have to pass. A common misconception - VFR plans only go to the destination and the alternate. The computer that routes the plans doesn't know where to address them with regards to en-rte agencies (unless it was addressed to each one individually).

Notwithstanding this the actual practicalities of having the plan are non-existent. I for one am not going to make up a pile of strips for flights which may or may not call (no where to keep them ready anyway at summer traffic levels) but if this was to be done then there'd be no way I'd have the time to actually find the strip when the aircraft called if there were so many. Direct handovers or info when you call are the only practical solution at the moment.

CM

[ATCbabe]

Chilli,

You are correct that unless stated on the flight plan the plan only goes to destination/alternate adm.
Sorry I should of mentioned that at the time of posting.

[White Shadow]

Babe -
Roger
Thanks
'bye
WS

[GoneWest]

White Shadow - whilst I agree entirely with what you say (though maybe not the way you say it)....if you are going to re-write the CAP413 into your own language does that include the dropping of the word altitude when operating on a QNH??

who I am; where I am; my height & QNH; my destination/route; what service I'd like.

If you're at a height you should be saying the QFE.

[White Shadow]

GW -

Oops.

Thanks. Should indeed have written Altitude, on QNH.

I usually just say the numbers, on RT. -
eg "two thousand feet, on QNH one zero two one"

Seems enough? Tho' probably wouldn't pass an RT exam...

WS