How do I know what permissions I need?

[tobster911]

Hi All, it's me again...

I'm just waiting on mu license to be dispatched. Had an email from the CAA saying I was missing something on paperwork, which I've emailed across to them today, so hopefully they confirm that and get it sent to me. It's only been 6 weeks (to the day).

Anyway, reason for my question is this: I'm going for a flight to an airfield I've never been to next month (specifically, Leicester) and want to know how you can tell whether you have to request permission to start etc? On my QXC, I flew to two international airports (which required said permission), but at my home airfield, I don't need to. May sound like a stupid question, but, I need to know.

Also, when it comes to refuelling, that's always something that's been done for me, but as far as I'm aware, not every airfield has someone who does it for you. Is it difficult to refuel?

Sorry for the silly sounding questions, but thank you in advance for your helpful, non-condescending, comments :)

Kind Regards

TW

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Also, when it comes to refuelling, that's always something that's been done for me, but as far as I'm aware, not every airfield has someone who does it for you. Is it difficult to refuel?
This is not a practical problem for those many of us who can't afford a rental long enough away from home base to use up a tank full of fuel!

[Prop swinger]

For any licensed airfield your first source should be the IAIP under Aerodrome Index - Specific (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=6&Itemid=13.html). Any local regulations will be in the para 2.20 of the text data. For unlicensed airfields use their website or your favourite airfield guide.

You can also ask if phoning for PPR, or over the radio or at control when paying a landing fee.

[ShyTorque]

In general, ATC don't bite if you ask nicely by phone. If you're not sure, just call up and announce you're ready to start. If you're cleared, or alternatively told nothing to affect, job done.

[1800ed]

Most of the information you need is found in the AIP:

NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=6&Itemid=13.html)

This'll tell you everything you need to know about any airfield you choose to visit. I tend to just print off the pages I need, but you can buy the Pooleys/AFE books for a hard copy.

[MrAverage]

You should have at least been shown how to refuel, correctly and safely, during your training.................

[MrAverage]

.........and there's no such thing as a silly question in aviation, but if you manage to ask one you might be given a silly answer!

[xrayalpha]

Generally speaking:

If there is an Air/Ground service - ie Placename Info - they can't tell you what to do, so start -up would be at your leisure.

If there is a FISO - ie Placename Radio - then they can tell you what do do on the ground, except when on the runway. So you might not be able to start up without their permission.

And, of course, a full ATC may even have a dedicated Ground frequency.

In practical terms, just ask when you pay your landing fee!

[tobster911]

Thank you for all your answers. Yea, never got shown refuelling, but will ask when I go back to the airfield (hopefully next week some time).

If there is an Air/Ground service - ie Placename Info - they can't tell you what to do, so start -up would be at your leisure.

If there is a FISO - ie Placename Radio - then they can tell you what do do on the ground, except when on the runway. So you might not be able to start up without their permission.

And, of course, a full ATC may even have a dedicated Ground frequency.

I thought this was the case, but wanted to confirm.


This is not a practical problem for those many of us who can't afford a rental long enough away from home base to use up a tank full of fuel!

I won't be away long enough to use a full tank, however, a 2.5 hour return flight (requiring 55 l of fuel plus 15 l reserve), with a PIC weighing 75kg and a rather portly passenger in a Robin HR200 means I won't be able to put the full amount of required fuel in on departure, I'll have to do it in 2 sections.


Thank you all :)

[pulse1]

If there is an Air/Ground service - ie Placename Info - they can't tell you what to do, so start -up would be at your leisure.

If there is a FISO - ie Placename Radio - then they can tell you what do do on the ground, except when on the runway. So you might not be able to start up without their permission.


I think that these are the wrong way round.

"Placename Radio" is A/G and has no control, just provides information
"Placename Information" can control you on the ground and onto the runway for T/O at your discretion.

[tobster911]

Ah yes, I could be wrong, but that sounds more like it

[scifi]

I think the above have mentioned most of the possibilities. So it's....


Pooleys to check for PPR.
Go to the big C to pay your Cash.


If you need fuel, it is easier to taxi to the pumps after landing, (with directions from the tower.) than before take-off.
Then some airfields require you to Book-Out, so ask for an internal phone and dial the internal number of the Tower.


.

[foxmoth]

You should have at least been shown how to refuel, correctly and safely, during your training......

Not an option at many airfields, in fact at some fields it will only be a limited number of employees who are insured, but if you are at a field where this is required and you are not happy to do it yourself then ask and generally there will be someone on hand to assist.
For requesting start I have never bothered a ANY airfield unless I am on an IFR plan!

[Sam Rutherford]

The best way to ensure a happy visit is to simply pick up the phone and call them. Or, if you have more time, ping them an email...

[Nick T]

What foxmoth and Sam said.

At East Mids Airport the limit of my refuelling training was 'Hi Matt, any chance you can fill up Tango Golf for me please?' ;)

I've just got a share in a PA28 at Tollerton - I've had much the same queries as you re: refuelling / startup / procedure... just ask - people are quite happy to fill in the gaps :)

Edit: oh, and if you've only sent off paperwork to the caa today then they won't look at it until Wednesday at the earliest, then reassess it on Friday... don't ask me how I know ;)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

You should have at least been shown how to refuel, correctly and safely, during your training.................
Yup. I was taught how to ask Ops for the refueller as necessary.

[tobster911]

I'll find out about refuelling next time I go, and will, as suggested, ping off an email to ask. All the information from the AIP is kinda confusing, but I've figured it out :)

Nick T - I know you had a HUGE delay with your license application, but why do you reckon they won't look at the email until Wednesday? (just out of curiosity).

Many thanks


On a totally different topic, does the license come with a holder, or do I have to buy one separately? If so, any suggestions as to where to get one from? Thanks

T

[tmmorris]

In my experience you only ever need to ask for start either

a. on an IFR flight plan (so ATC can get themselves in gear!) - won't apply to you yet
b. at big airfields with an ATIS - and the ATIS occasionally says 'all aircraft call for start on XXX.XXX'.

Even the RAF base where I fly doesn't require a call for start for club aircraft, though oddly there is a military habit of calling 'complete, closing down' before shutdown.

[Nick T]

tobster: i've got nothing to really go on other than my own experience... you rush around trying to get paperwork sorted and emailed over, but then they only clear out the email box every few days. (Unless they changed things recently)
Same with posting things - one guy i spoke to said that if i posted something on a Thursday it would get there on the Friday then sit in a pile for 'matching' until the middle of the next week.

But yes, the licence does come in a holder :)

[nkt2000]

The only place I have Been where you have to call for startup is Fife as they do parachute jumping and don't want anyone dropping onto your propeller.

[ChickenHouse]

@tobster: You are at a point where you feel one known bug in pilots training, the little introduction to cross country flights.

I welcome you ask here, because there are not few fresh pilots never get off their training area for a long time after receiving their license. Most start with two things, talk to elder fellows at their home airfield and reading the AIP.

At which training facility did you get your training? Do they offer a short add-on training? At my home ATO it is called "quick XC refresher" and includes briefing for basics on cross country and cross border flights.

[150 Driver]

Best advice based on my experience...

Plan the route, when you are ready to fly it have someone who is experienced -doesn't necessarily have to be an instructor - check it over for anything you've missed (Danger areas, altitude restrictions etc).

Have a look at the aerodrome plan - whether Pooleys or AFE - this will tell you most of what you need to know. The website might also give a few clues (e.g. look at the Goodwood one which gives great help on noise abatement departure and arrival routes).

Then call the PPR/ATC number and have a chat, ask what you're uncertain of and explain your experience level. IME they would rather deal with an issue on the ground before you take off than when you're in the circuit going the wrong way at the wrong height ! They might even advise against arriving at certain times if there is peak demand - e.g. a fly in known to be happening at 11-12 that day.

Ask in particular if there are any landmarks that local practice uses as reporting even if not published VRP's (e.g. approaching Shoreham from the North East I've commonly been asked to report when visual with the road tunnel)

Then... just go and do it.

Expect to make some mistakes and if you do, own up to them - even if they sound stupid. Everyone makes them, there are precious few Sky Gods around. But if, for example, you are in the circuit going the wrong way everyone else would rather know so they can watch out for you.

Enjoy. The memories that I hold dearest in flying are (1) First solo, (2) QXC, (3) First XC post licence.

[150 Driver]

On the refuelling front, in the unlikely event that you get to do it, it is just the same as filling a car (except for the fact there are multiple tanks). The hardest thing is often finding how to pay !

The most complex place I've had to fill up was Enstone which was self service from a tanker, the lorry engine needed starting to make the fuel pump. Then to pay, it required a message left on a mobile phone which a day or so later triggered a call back so they could get my credit card number.

[noflynomore]

Second 150's useful post, especially the phone call bit. Tell them you're on a new licence, ask how they like to see things done. You might be told its always an overhead join, or if its quiet by all means join downwind or long finals. Or for heaven's sake don't overfly the chicken farm at... don't taxi on the grass, it's boggy, You want fuel, just taxi to the pump and we'll do the rest etc. Its nice to know these things in advance and no one ever minds being asked.

Have fun.

[150 Driver]

It is rare to have to call for start.

The only one I can recall having to do so is Norwich. I can't remember whether it is on the ATIS, but it is in the flight guide and there is a sign that can't be missed next to the phone in the briefing room used to book out. Just in case I'd missed it, on speaking to ATC to book out they reminded me to call for start, which was on top of being advised to do so by the receptionist when paying the landing fee !

Of course, if you do have to call for start remember to switch the radio off before then starting.

[Level Attitude]

Callsign: "Place Name Information" means there is a licensed "Flight Information Service Officer" on the radio - and they control you on the ground with the exception of the active Runway.

Listen to replies when you call up for the first time as sometimes airfields that you expect to have Callsign: "Xxx Information" reply with Callsign: "Xxx Radio" - this means that, at that particular time, only a licensed Radio Operator is on duty - and therefore there is no element of Control at all and the services they offer might be reduced.

tobster911,
Well done on passing your test and I applaud your wish to actually use your Licence (once it arrives).

However a PPL is often referred to as a 'Licence to Learn'. Are you sure you want to do two new things (X-Country to visit a new airfield and carry passengers) on your first flight post Test?

Why not plan and fly to Leicester solo now, whilst awaiting your Licence? Your Instructor should be happy to authorise.

I am sure you remember this from Air Law (and it is unlikely that anyone would ever check until you fly abroad):
- Your PPL (which will come with a little blue holder) will NOT be valid when it arrives - You have to sign it to make it valid.
- For any flight you are required to carry with you both your Licence AND a Photo ID.

[foxmoth]

On the refuelling front, in the unlikely event that you get to do it, it is just the same as filling a car
Dam, I must remember to attach the earthing wire next time I fill my car!:hmm::rolleyes:

[noflynomore]

Dam, I must remember to attach the earthing wire next time I fill my car
Probably just one of those conventions that has become a fixed habit, it doesn't mean there is necessarily a good reason for it though. I doubt there is any more need to earth the fuel nozzle on a plane than on a car. It's even done for jet A1 refuelling - with a pressure attachment so no fuel open to atmosphere!
That's not to suggest you shouldn't do it if it is expected, of course.

Some Spanish airfields insist that all airside vehicles have a wire mesh flash-arrestor over the exhaust pipe, some airfields even insist on a fire truck attending a refuel. These are hangovers from ancient times and an anachronism nowadays but nonetheless are still enshrined in rules or accepted practice despite serving no known useful purpose (except possibly keeping more firemen employed than are really needed).

[TheOddOne]

Refuelling accidents are mercifully rare but when they do happen, the consequences are usually severe.

JatA1 is either dispensed using a bowser or at larger airports by a hydrant system, with a truck containing measuring and filtering equipment connected between the pot on the stand and the aircraft. The fuel is delivered at a pressure of around 11 bar. If (as has happened) another vehicle drives into the ground connection and snaps it, the plume of jet fuel reaches 150' in to the sky before the automatics detect the sudden loss of pressure and shut the system down. The reason for using a static line for JatA1 is that many thousands of volts of static electricity are generated by the fuel during the dispensing process. Whilst the pressure couplings aren't open to the atmosphere, the insides of the tank are.

Another danger with JatA1 fuelling is that if there is a fracture in the line, then fuel can be sprayed on to a hot surface, such as an aircraft engine or the running engine in the fuel dispenser. A refueller sadly lost his life during the refuelling of a BA 777 at Denver in 2001.

I can't recall a fuelling accident to a light aircraft attributed to static discharge but there are quite a few videos on the internet of car fuelling fires. Allegedly, in the United States, these are sometimes caused by the synthetic fibres worn by people rubbing themselves against the bodywork. In one case, I think someone was attempting at night to see if fuel was flowing by the light of the flame from a cigarette lighter. A Darwin award contender, surely!

It only takes a few seconds to attach and then detach a static line to and from an aircraft. There are those folk who have taxied away with the line attached - very embarrassing.

TOO

[ShyTorque]

I doubt there is any more need to earth the fuel nozzle on a plane than on a car. It's even done for jet A1 refuelling - with a pressure attachment so no fuel open to atmosphere!

As TheOddOne wrote, JetA-1 flowing through the hose itself causes a static charge to build.

150 Driver,
It's not particularly "rare" to be required to call for start clearance if there is an ATC unit on the airfield; it just depends on where you fly from.

[LFT]

At Prestwick on either of the GA Aprons you don't need to call ATC to start but you do need to Book Out with an ETD so they'll be expecting you to call for taxy around about that time, but at Oban they do expect you to call for start even though you Book Out on the R/T just before or after start.

[n5296s]

Out of curiosity, what exactly is the point of having to get permission to start the engine(s)? I could see that if you have big jet engines it could save you money if you know you won't be able to taxi for a while - but even that is a convenience to the aircraft.

I've never heard of it in the US, not even at airports big enough to have a discrete clearance delivery freq. I've flown out of several Class B airports including LAX.

For Norwich, it's consistent with other aspects of the place that I've read about on here. But really, what's the point?

[foxmoth]

Start clearance is generally for an IFR clearance where you can have a slot time, this slot time can be LONG after the time you are actually ready to go!
In the States most large airfields have a clearance frequency and this is who you get airways clearance from but the ramp is seperately controlled and you ask for push and start with ramp (you also need clearance to enter the ramp taxiing in).

[Maoraigh1]

Oban EGEO requires start-up permission, as there can be unaccompanied school kids boarding the flights home to their islands.

[LFT]

Sounds sensible enough.

[ShyTorque]

Some airfields also have strict noise abatement rules affecting how long engines can be run.

[foxmoth]

There are these examples, but in my experience this is rare enough that any airfield requiring this for VFR aircraft will have it clearly stated in flight guides.

[tobster911]

But yes, the licence does come in a holder
Thank you Nick, at least we get more than just a piece of paper and a 2 month wait for our hard earned £183.

In my experience you only ever need to ask for start either

a. on an IFR flight plan (so ATC can get themselves in gear!) - won't apply to you yet
b. at big airfields with an ATIS - and the ATIS occasionally says 'all aircraft call for start on XXX.XXX'.

Even the RAF base where I fly doesn't require a call for start for club aircraft, though oddly there is a military habit of calling 'complete, closing down' before shutdown.

Ah, OK. The only two I've flown to are Norwich and Southend, which both have ATIS and where my instructor told me I need to. Thank you :)

@tobster: You are at a point where you feel one known bug in pilots training, the little introduction to cross country flights.

I welcome you ask here, because there are not few fresh pilots never get off their training area for a long time after receiving their license. Most start with two things, talk to elder fellows at their home airfield and reading the AIP.

At which training facility did you get your training? Do they offer a short add-on training? At my home ATO it is called "quick XC refresher" and includes briefing for basics on cross country and cross border flights.

I am indeed. Thank you, I'll always ask questions if I'm unsure, but sometimes worry I'm getting a bit annoying :/ I did my training at Anglian Flight Centres in Earls Colne. I do believe they offer this, so will look into it.

I am sure you remember this from Air Law (and it is unlikely that anyone would ever check until you fly abroad):
- Your PPL (which will come with a little blue holder) will NOT be valid when it arrives - You have to sign it to make it valid.
- For any flight you are required to carry with you both your Licence AND a Photo ID.

Thank you. Once I've signed it, do I then have to send it back to the CAA, or is it valid as soon as I put my squiggle on it?


Thank you everyone for all your much appreciated help :)

[tobster911]

@NickT - They got back to me today - apparently, what I sent was EXACTLY what they needed, however, they need it direct from the ATO. Luckily, after I asked, they responded very quickly. Fingers crossed

-------EDIT-----

Oh no, apparently that's not enough and it has to come DIRECT from the ATO. Why is this so difficult?


---------EDIT AGAIN------

Just had a phone call from them saying my license should be here on Wednesday or Thursday xD - YAY

[Nick T]

Ah, the fun and games!

I'll keep my fingers crossed that everything turns up this week for you. :D

[tobster911]

Thank you. At least I've had them call me, and the licensing officer has been pretty good at returning emails. Here's hoping everything goes well

[tobster911]

So, the license arrived yesterday. All signed and sorted. Looking forward to taking my Mrs out for a local flight on Monday (weather permitting).

[cotterpot]

I think you will find you actually have a Licence :)

[tobster911]

Ah yes, I do. How did that slip thru (sic) the net?