Getting robbed,"taxy time"

[GonTek]

Anybody come across this when being charged for training,hire etc.
This works out at block/tacho time + ten minutes.

To explain,time was logged from engine start to engine stop and includes time idling and run up checks etc,tacho time was also used (and rounded up )when added to log.

Times were put in log and ten minutes added to total time,it works out cost wise at £23.33 extra on top of total cost.
When questioned they said its "taxy time" and that's what they charge everyone,surely this is not legal unless terms are displayed and agreed to if you choose to hire or take up training.

Thoughts on this and its legality ?

[JSAG]

There are many ways of charging.
I know of time charged chock to chock, i.e. time moving.
We get charged by the HOBBS meter, roughly engine running time.

And I've heard of take off to landing plus 10 minutes taxy time (for busy fields where you might have to queue and hold unfairly).

But engine start to finish PLUS 10 minutes sounds illogical and unreasonable.

Of course any instruction, briefing, de-briefing would be reasonable to charge extra.

[MrAverage]

Many clubs/schools do this if charging using a tacho rate. They do it to compete with others who quote chocks rates, generally not to cheat the customer (although some do). This is because a sensible tacho rate looks really expensive until you "convert" it to a brakes off / brakes on cost. You sort of need to compare apples with oranges correctly, if you get my drift.
PM me if you need further explanation.............

[ChickenHouse]

The school I used to work for charged for training and check rides on tach time plus 10 min before and 10 min after for briefing and debriefing. This was transparent in the price list and all welcomed that because this time was also the basis for payment of the freelance FI/CFI/CFE. I thought this as to be fair.

[hobbit1983]

You are, of course, entitled to vote with your feet.

[GonTek]

Fully understand both comments and your points of view.
I intentionally put down on the log engine start time,flew the detail and engine stop time and tacho end time,total time was approx 40 mins,this was total time the engine ran and total time for use of the plane..

Log was filled in with times as stated previously and I made a point of saying stop to start times,this was altered in front of me and ten minutes added,I have mentioned it before and the answer was that what we charge.

At £164 per hour inc landing fee its £23.33 more and if it was a twin (and it was explained when I flew the twin + 15 mins) it can be £100 or more extra !

Just peeves the life out of me when somebody tries to charge over the odds.

[Sam Rutherford]

If that's how they do it (and it's published somewhere) then that's how they do it.

If it wasn't explained to you, or not clearly displayed, in advance then that's uncool but perhaps not 'deceitful'. It's unlikely that:

1. They only charged you this because they thought they could get away with it.
2. They deliberately didn't tell you in advance.

Explain to them that they should make the billing system very clear in advance (rather than wait to be asked, as you didn't ask) to avoid future complaints...?

Safe flights, Sam.

[GonTek]

Chicken House,dual rate is more (obviously) and includes FI cost and landing and the +10 mins is stuck on top !

My whole point is the time stated was from start to stop no "clipping" times and don't think it fair to charge if the tacho may be slow !

Hobbit,flown there for 14 years and far to big to fly local ultralights,its only in the past year or so this has come into force.

And No Sam its not published and from what I have seen nobody questions it and just pays up.

[foxmoth]

As said, many charge wheels off to wheels on plus 10 and that is not too unfair as it includes taxi time but they seem to be charging taxi time twice!
In fact the AIRCRAFT hours are only wheels off to wheels on so a bit unfair to charge for taxi time anyway! Personally I would be looking at another way to go flying - but then I am in a group aircraft anyway so we can charge what WE decide and any surplus goes into the group funds.

[Sam Rutherford]

"not published" - have you asked them where their rates are noted? They presumably have something written somewhere with all the prices of all the services they offer?

If not, then they should - but you should ask them first about this. Difficult to run a business without something as simple/important as this...

[ch.ess]

Where I learnt: T/O to LDG +6 min (and a reasonable rate)
Where I voted with my feet: off-block to on-block (plus a higher rate)
Read elsewhere: Tacho time (with reasonable rates commensurate with that system)

T/O-LDG allows for a more careful warm-up procedure followed, valuable during winter. When charged per running hour, people tend to race through everything...

Instructor rates should be set so that they fit the system, 10min added for "nothing" sounds strange.

Is it more than other schools in the area when you add it all up ?

[tmmorris]

We were charging for t/o to t/d but sadly evidence suggested club members were consistently erring in the direction of lower costs for them... so we've switched to tacho instead. Sad but necessary, though if it leads to more accurate reporting it could actually bring hourly rates down. Tacho at least means that taxy and holding time is cheap, if not free. I used to pay on Hobbs at a busy airfield and it hurt!

[foxmoth]

I dont understand how they can charge taxi time when the engine is not running - or is there a downhill slope from the apron so you can taxi to the runway engine off??:rolleyes::hmm::ugh:

[ChickenHouse]

I dont understand how they can charge taxi time when the engine is not running - or is there a downhill slope from the apron so you can taxi to the runway engine off??
I read "taxy", not "taxi", so must be some kind of local tax they tax'y :ugh: :rolleyes: .

[Gertrude the Wombat]

They need £x per year for y usage of the aircraft. Whether they charge a higher rate for wheels up to wheels down, or a lower rate for engine start up to engine shutdown, or an intermediate rate for brakes off to brakes on, is up to them, as is whether they calculate taxy time by flight time plus ten minutes, or flight time by block time minutes ten minutes, or actually time taxy time by watch, or whatever.


For the same aircraft and the same level of service it'll even out, you'll pay the same amount for the same flying regardless of the charging algorithms.

[Cows getting bigger]

When I was a CFI, we would charge students for the time they put in their logbook. Of course, that technique is a little bit more tricky with renters. The industry default appears to be airborne time plus 5 minutes either side. You then fall into the trap of renters rushing on the ground.

I once considered a fixed rate/hour plus a rate for fuel used, the latter being a rough interpretation from tacho. The advantage here would be that renters wouldn't be racing around at 2500rpm all they time. Unfortunately, that idea proved too difficult to manage.

Back to the OP, I think it unethical for you to be charged engine running time when not taxiing.

[9 lives]

When I learned to fly airplane, I was charged engine running hours. I thought that was fair - I logged engine running hours.

When I learned to fly helicopter, I was charged engine running hours, less .1 hours per flight. The rationale of the training organization was that they did not want their students rushing through checks, so they would absorb that cost, to encourage good practice, and risk of an unsafe situation from something being missed. I liked that policy.

In the end, if you're paying for more aircraft operating expense than you are logging as the pilot, something is wrong.

[Ebbie 2003]

Sounds odd but I suppose that if the airport is big and or busy (mine has 11,000ft runway and lots of big jets) the taxi time coule be weird - so one would tend to benefit (I have had a 0.9 on the Hobbs but w/off to w/on of less than 30 minutes; so one would "win"

A smaller less busy airports with shorter taxi distances one would tend to lose.

The real reason for the w/off w/on thing is to get the benefit of the hours count for 50/100 hour checks - one only records w/off w/on (the tach takes care of engine times) probably delays the 50/100 by 5 to 10 hours overall.

That means for a busy renter their plane is more economic - so even if you seem to lose by a few minutes, you are benefiting form the renter's lower costs in the rate to which the hours are applied.

[Meldrew]

To avoid bad feeling from the users, regardless of the above mentioned charging methods, surely the best way is to charge by tacho time, where the tacho runs slower when taxiing or at low rpm, encouraging cruise at lower power settings. The operator then works out what that tacho time rate should be in order to cover costs and give the profit margin required. Or is that too simple!

[Sam Rutherford]

Can I suggest that it really doesn't matter as long as it is CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD BY EVERYONE IN ADVANCE. It's the surprise that leaves a bad taste, not really the cost or method... As someone else has already mentioned, they all end up costing about the same because if not:

1. They go bust because they're not charging enough.
2. They make lots of money for a very short period and then go bust because they're charging too much.

[DownWest]

Had a share in two groupe A/C. The Piper J3 came into our base for a check. While I was looking carefully at things, I found a note on the drive cable to the tacho. " We know what you are doing XXXX" ( a member) so stop it! Seems he was disconnecting the tacho to 'reduce' his hours. Not cricket!

[A and C]

As someone who supplies aircraft to flying clubs I had to change from charging from take off to landing according to the entry's made by pilots in the aircraft log, however it became clear that a small number of the people had difficulty in getting the numbers right and always seemed to find tailwinds.
I changed to charging using the tachometer times, I was very careful to set the tachometer rate at one that would reflect the rate for take off to landing rate and not disadvantage those who had previously accurately recorded flying times.

[foxmoth]

" We know what you are doing XXXX" ( a member) so stop it! Seems he was disconnecting the tacho to 'reduce' his hours. Not cricket
I think in most groups this would have lead to an invite to donate what he should have paid, plus a bit more to make sure, and an invitation to leave if it happened again!

[chrisbl]

Re the OP I find the charging policy unusual unless the nominal rate is set low to be an enticement and needs to be jacked up by 16%.

Our school charges for brakes off to brakes on either a dual or solo rate as appropriate as Brakes off to brakes on is what goes in the logbook.

We also record tacho time and airborne time and generally tacho time and airborne time usually come close to brakes off to brakes on plus 10. it varies a bit depending on the home runway in use and the proficiency of the pilot/student.

The tip for all prospective students is do a proper comparison of cost per logbook hour. This includes any additional bits for briefing / debriefing/ fuel surcharges etc.

The other potential gotcha is with landings. Is it one price for the whole detail irrespective of the number of landings per detail or do you pay for each landing /touch and go? It can make a considerable difference to the overall cost for each lesson.

Lack of transparency and "sweetheart" rates too good to be true are a common problem in the flight training field.
Don't be afraid to ask for sample invoices.

[B2N2]

It's confusing but let's see what we can do to clarify;

Old(er) aircraft may not originally have or have had a Hobbs meter.
Installing can be costly as it needs to be wired into the electrical system and tapped into the oil pressure line. Yes a true Hobbs meter runs on oil pressure and not on the Master switch on.
If you accidentally leave the master switch on or take 10 min to read a checklist with the Master switch on the Hobbs should not run.

If it does then it's only wired into the electrical system.
So Hobbs time should be true engine run time and is for all intends and purposes (by the FAA) legal to log as flight time in your logbook although operating time is probably a better word.

A Tacho runs even with clock time at a high powers setting.
So if somebody comes back after an hour clock time with 1.0 Tach time they've run it balls to the wall.
Anything less then (almost) full power the tach runs slower then clocktime.
In normal flight training operations this is usually a factor of 1.25 meaning that one hour of Tach is really 1hr 15 min of engine run time.
0.8 Tach is around one hour clock time.

So if the school or club charges by Tach and Tach only they're basically robbing themselves because fuel is still being burned, instructors are still providing their time and wear and tear and depreciation is still taking place.

So lets say the airplane is $100/hr and the instructor is $50/hr and the school uses teh Tach:

1.0 Tach = 1.25 x$100 + 1.25 x $50 = $125 + $62.5 = $187.5
This would not include briefing and debriefing time for which the instructor needs to be paid. So let's say 15 min pre and 15 min post for another $25.

Final bill $212.5 and you expected $150 because you don't know how the billing works.

[Tinstaafl]

I think there is some incorrect information in many of the above posts.

There are three times that are of interest.

1. Time in Service (TIS). This is the time that *must* be logged to track inspection & maintenance requirements. It is defined as when the aircraft becomes airborne until it lands. As long as that *minimum* time is tracked, then you are legal. You could use a system that incurs TIS at a greater rate but not one that under records. The disadvantage of recording more time than minimum is that maintenance will fall due sooner than is strictly necessary. That makes the cost of operating the aircraft greater.

Acceptable methods include:

- Log airborne & landing times using your watch or the aircraft's clock.
- Use some sort of meter eg Hobbs. The issue becomes how is the meter activated. At a minimum it must start by the time the wheels leave the ground, and stop once they're back on the ground. Common methods (in increasing amounts of time added to the minimum) include weight-on-wheels (WOW) switch, airspeed (triggered at some reasonable airspeed just prior to becoming airborne), oil pressure, & master/battery. Also gear up/down activated.

Only the 1st two could be considered accurate. All the others except gear up/down record additional, and unnecessary, TIS. Gear up/down isn't legal because it records TIS sometime *after* the aircraft leaves the ground until sometime before it lands ie it fails to record time that is required to be recorded.

*Note: Many places use the hour meter on a tachometer. It is usually calibrated to clock 1 hour in time at cruise RPM. At lower revs it under records, at higher revs it over records. As long as it doesn't under-record for the whole of the flight than that's ok. But if it records some amount of time less than the true TIS (as defined) then it isn't legal. Doesn't mean that many organisations don't use it, but to follow the strict interpretation of the rules...

Note that TIS does not include engine starts, taxi, or any other operation of the aircraft other than airborne time.

2. Pilot flight time: From when the aircraft 1st moves under its own power until it comes to rest at the completion of the flight. Note that this includes taxi time, unlike TIS.

Required to show compliance with minimum experience requirements, currency etc.

3. Company time for billing: This can be any method that company wants to use to cover costs and, hopefully, give a profit margin. It could be number of clouds in the sky, or TIS, or Hobbs activated by one of many switches, on the clock or whatever.

Ultimately it costs $x.yy / hour for the company or owner to cover costs (and, hopefully, have a profit margin). Whether it charges a lower rate using a faster clocking method, or a higher rate using a slower clocking method doesn't matter.

The only way to compare costs is to check the total cost for any given flight using each of the offered charging schemes.

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I've ignored maintenance that falls due based on cycles or calendar. Usually cycles also includes an airborne requirement eg starting an engine without also getting airborne doesn't necessarily accrue a cycle. Depends on what the manufacturer has specified for that item or part.

[ChickenHouse]

I guess the two sides of the coin are described well. One side is the cost per logbook hour, which is what the pilot feels, what she/he is interested in and what can be measured quite easily. The other side, the real TCO cost per flight hour is seldom really gathered beforehand, so discussion is always off balance on facts basis. Usually a company doing charter tries to guesstimate total costs and expected flight hours, but this is seldom done well and falls under risk of commercial operation (and as such, the uncertainty has to be paid for by itself).

Charging per Hobbs, per OffBlock/OnBlock or per Airtime is doing nothing to the total costs at the operator, it only shifts distribution throughout the users (or should do). If you complain on the way you are charged, you are trying to get money out of the pocket of another fellow pilot, please keep that in mind. Looking at the very bad commercial numbers of the usual charter businesses, I suspect that many didn't recognize this and pulled money from the survivability of the businesses.

[Clare Prop]

When doing the costings you have to weigh up the fixed and variable costs and divide them by the hours as accurately as you can predict baed on past costs. If an aeroplane is hired on tacho then the hourly rate will be worked on 100 hours flown per 100 hourly. If on hobbs, more like 115 hours per 100 hourly. So you can hire on tacho, but it will cost 15% more, for example.

If you think you are being robbed then best to discuss this before the flight than after.

[9 lives]

At lower revs it under records, at higher revs it over records. As long as it doesn't under-record for the whole of the flight than that's ok. But if it records some amount of time less than the true TIS (as defined) then it isn't legal.

It is true that the tach will under record at lower RPM, however, not much, until the RPM is so far below the 1:1 that the plane will hardly maintain altitude. As the tach and hour meter are a part of the approved type design, they are required to meet accuracy standards. In Canada the standard for accuracy is +- 5%. Therefore your tach time could be 5% out either way, and still be legal. I cannot imagine an inspector declaring an unacceptable situation with TIS being recorded from an airworthy tach hour meter.

[flyinkiwi]

I used to fly an Arrow whose Hobbs was airswitched to activate above 40 knots IAS. The owner insisted that we warm the engine up properly and was willing to absorb the cost of extra time spent on the ground on cold days. It came in handy one day at an airport where the sole charge controller got so busy she forgot about us for 20 minutes while we sat at a holding point.

[Tinstaafl]

Using an airswitch, the only cost of engine running on the ground is the miniscule amount of fuel burnt. None of that time accrues as TIS - which is what maintenance inspections are based on.