Indonesian Citylink Pilot [Archive]

HighAndFlighty

30th Dec 2016, 06:42

From the Jakarta Post

A Citilink pilot was removed from duty on Wednesday after passengers claimed he was incoherent in a flight announcement he made before takeoff.

One of the passengers voiced suspicion that the pilot may have been intoxicated.
“Around 15 minutes before the scheduled departure, the pilot spoke random words in his flight announcement. I suspect that he was drunk as he kept mumbling and shouting,” Ketut Buda, who was booked on the Citilink flight from Juanda International Airport in Surabaya, East Java, to Soekarno Hatta International Airport in Jakarta on Wednesday morning, told a local radio station.

Ketut said most of the passengers decided to disembark in a show of protest. They also asked the airline to replace the pilot in question.

Citilink, the low-cost subsidiary of national flag carrier Garuda Indonesia, said later in the day that the pilot, identified as Capt. Tekad Purna, would be investigated after the incident.

The Citilink flight was scheduled to take off at 5:15 a.m. After the incident, Citilink replace the pilot and the flight departed an hour behind schedule with 154 passengers on board.http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/12/28/allegedly-drunk-citilink-pilot-speaks-random-words-from-cockpit-passenger.html

HighAndFlighty

30th Dec 2016, 07:22

Onboard footage

https://youtu.be/DdfZyAZLXSA

Heathrow Harry

30th Dec 2016, 07:53

well good for the passengers - the standard Indonesian response is to sit tight and not cause any trouble - they may well have saved not only their own lives but a lot of other people's lives as well...........................

Consol

30th Dec 2016, 08:15

What did the F.O. have to say about this? What was the flight planning room like? A lot of traps before he got to the aircraft and nothing had caught him.

India Charlie

30th Dec 2016, 08:29

I dropped my Jepp charts at security :D

followthegreens

30th Dec 2016, 09:47

Love how the security staff just help him get on his way :eek::)

That's some impressive hierarchical culture...

WingNut60

30th Dec 2016, 10:04

Indonesian culture (particularly Javanese) is very non-confrontational. The unwritten rules are: never admit fault; never accuse anyone else of being at fault. NEVER!
People are killed for accusing others of having done something wrong when their guilt is self-evident.
The assistance from the security guys to pick up the charts without once questioning his condition is a very good example of this trait.
The next step then is normally a completely unbelievable explanation to account for the transgression and that explanation is then accepted by all.
And please don't infer that these are racist comments - this is taught at cultural awareness classes.
And it is a cultural trait that is evident to a greater or lesser extent right through SE and eastern Asia.

It would have taken big balls, a lot of training to counter their upbringing and a strong and clear management ethos for those security guys to have intercepted the pilot.

Hotel Tango

30th Dec 2016, 10:39

India Charlie, I don't understand the meaning of your post!

This guy was seriously under the influence of something or other. Unbelievable that security let him go on his way. Did it really take the pax to raise the alarm? Frightning!

India Charlie

30th Dec 2016, 13:10

I was being funny and sarcastic at the irony of it all. I did find the video funny, though I recognise the seriousness of the situation.

If those security personnel hadn't helped him get whatever fell out of his flight bag, how would he even conduct a briefing? I guess that he wasn't even sure whether he was in Jakarta or Jogjakarta.

The least those screeners could have done was to report his condition, but it doesn't seem to be in their purview (cultural conditioning?).

Hats off to the alert pax for booting him out (for good it should be).

peekay4

30th Dec 2016, 14:14

Citilink Execs Resign

Less than 72 hours after reports of an allegedly drunk Citilink pilot showing up for work circulated in the public, two top executives of the low-cost carrier announced on Friday their resignation as a gesture of responsibility for the incident.

Speaking to The Jakarta Post on Friday, Citilink vice president of corporate communications Benny S. Butarbutar said that president director Albert Burhan and operational director Hadinoto Soedigno had decided to resign from the company following the incident.

"Pak Albert expressed his intention to resign all of a sudden at the end of a press conference [on Friday] as a form of his responsibility [regarding the case]," he said, adding that the resignation must first get approval by the company’s board of commissioners and its parent company.

Must be the Indonesian "never admit fault" culture someone cited above.

More from: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/12/30/citilink-top-executives-resign-after-drunk-pilot-incident.html

testpanel

30th Dec 2016, 14:39

SO, its time to put Garuda on the black list, again!

Citilink is a LCC of/for Garuda.

This is just insane!

If the mentality/culture over "there" is like that, its not only Citilink pilots that are seen as "untouchable" as mentioned before.

After 1 young co-pilot (with known "medical" issues) was allowed to continue to fly and crash and kill more than 100 persons, EASA mandated mental health and drug and alcohol testing in the whole of europe.

As a pilot, going through numerous security checks in europe, sometimes i cannot even bring a bottle of water with me, let alone a (little) swiss army knife.
(i don't want to know what would happen if I did pass the security like that at Paris CDG :uhoh: , jail time probably)

The indonesians needs to face reality, and change.
I respect cultures but keep cultures on the ground, not in the air.

Resigning "managers" of the airline, nor firing a pilot, nor educating crew in a 1 day classroom class will NOT change the attitude towards safe operation.

Best signal is banning Garuda (again!) and "help" the indonesian authorities cleaning up!

Moi/

30th Dec 2016, 16:21

Many people from security, to the dispatcher and even the crew would have been aware of the smell...and should have questioned it. Be it with him directly, or via immediate management.

Someone could have took him a side, had a quiet word with him and advised they self declare un-fit and "go sick". If they ignored you, well they are open to the whole world falling onto them. Sadly sometimes you cant reason with a drunk person.

Edit - Assumed to be drunk based upon the name of the link below

More from: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/12/30/citilink-top-executives-resign-after-drunk-pilot-incident.html

peekay4

30th Dec 2016, 16:33

SO, its time to put Garuda on the black list, again!

Citilink is a LCC of/for Garuda.

...

Best signal is banning Garuda (again!) and "help" the indonesian authorities cleaning up!
Citilink is now independent from Garuda (the airline), operating with a completely separate AOC, aircraft and management team.

They share common investors (the group company is still the largest investor) but since 2012 the two airlines have been operating as separate entities.

Albert Burhan wasn't just a "manager" at the airline -- he is/was the CEO of Citilink. So seems to me they are taking the safety incident seriously.

peekay4

30th Dec 2016, 16:57

Many people from security, to the dispatcher and even the crew would have been aware of the smell...and should have questioned it. Be it with him directly, or via immediate management.
Let's not jump to conclusions. The airport authority performed drug and alcohol tests on the pilot after he was pulled and those tests came back negative. They sent a second set of samples to a state lab but we won't know the results until after the weekend.

So at this point we don't know when (or even if) the pilot consumed any illegal / intoxicating substance. He could have appeared fine until just prior to the gate security checkpoint. He might not have smelled of alcohol when he passed by security.

Heck for all we know so far, he could have been having a medical issue.

testpanel

30th Dec 2016, 17:07

Speaking to The Jakarta Post on Friday, Citilink vice president of corporate communications Benny S. Butarbutar said that president director Albert Burhan and operational director Hadinoto Soedigno had decided to resign from the company following the incident.

Albert Burhan wasn't just a "manager" at the airline -- he is/was the CEO of Citilink. So seems to me they are taking the safety incident seriously.

"Taking the safety incident seriously"....are you kidding me?

He walked away, did NOT take responsibility!

A real manager would take his/her responsibility serious, he did not, just walked away....(to the beach or so:yuk:)

testpanel

30th Dec 2016, 17:10

Heck for all we know so far, he could have been having a medical issue.

Sorry, wrong answer,
after the Germanwings disaster:mad:

Radgirl

30th Dec 2016, 17:42

No Testpanel, RIGHT answer if indeed the alcohol and drug screen were done properly and were negative. There are a number of medical issues that could produce this outcome. And relevant indeed to this thread as the question still to be asked is why did the FO do nothing?

However, agree more likely that the results were not 'really' negative.....

Sunamer

30th Dec 2016, 18:20

looks like that pilot got problems with his IRS

hr2pilot

30th Dec 2016, 18:45

Someone could have took him a side, had a quiet word with him and advised they self declare un-fit and "go sick".

Wrong....simple solutions to big problems do not always work. This guy has a big problem either with attitude and/or alcohol (assuming he is inebriated and not suffering from some medical occurrence). Sweeping it under the rug does nothing to ensure it will not happen again.

testpanel

30th Dec 2016, 18:53

And relevant indeed to this thread as the question still to be asked is why did the FO do nothing?

Typical asian culture? Blame the F/O?

Come on, i don't need to be a doctor to asses that video that the guy is not fit to fly:yuk:

ph-sbe

30th Dec 2016, 21:31

Heck for all we know so far, he could have been having a medical issue.

The problem here is not why the airman was fit to fly: everyone will agree that he wasn't, regardless of cause.

The elephant in the room is the fact that he was able to make it to the aircraft in that condition, with nobody stepping up. That's a cultural issue, and nobody cares if that's company-wide, country-wide or continent-wide.

All aviation professionals (and for once, that includes security/TSA) are part of the swiss cheese, and every single person has the responsibility to make sure the holes don't line up to cause an incident.

testpanel

30th Dec 2016, 21:43

The elephant in the room is the fact that he was able to make it to the aircraft in that condition, with nobody stepping up. That's a cultural issue, and nobody cares if that's company-wide, country-wide or continent-wide.

Exactly. So thats why we (the world) should ban indonesian airlines.
Or better, screen every boy and girl before flight, in indonesia.

pfvspnf

30th Dec 2016, 22:01

What makes you think you can trust the lab results ? With money anything is possible in indo

India Four Two

30th Dec 2016, 22:14

Indonesian culture (particularly Javanese) is very non-confrontational. ....

Wingnut60's post is very pertinent. It would have been very difficult for the security screeners to confront the captain directly. However intervention via a third party should have been possible.

When I lived in Jakarta, an expat employee of the oil company I worked for nearly died after he was stabbed by a driver. The expat had bawled out the driver, in public, after the driver had got his truck stuck in a mudhole two days running. The driver lost so much face that the only thing he felt he could do was kill his supervisor. The expression 'running amok' comes from Indonesia.

Concerning the captain's behaviour in the security video, one thing that comes to mind is an experience that I had years ago, when I was helping a driver who was in the first stages of a diabetic coma. I was convinced that the driver was extremely drunk, until the ambulance arrived and the paramedics asked the right questions.

WingNut60

30th Dec 2016, 23:37

My previous comments referred to the actions (and inactions) of the security guys, and only them.
Bearing in mind their "position in life", and that they are not airline employees, and the number of them spread around the countless airports of the Indonesian archipelago, it is highly unlikely that they will ever constitute a reliable part of any screening process for drunk or ill pilots. Perhaps, with time, training and a strong management ethos of support they might be coaxed into reporting aberrant behaviour. Maybe they did, in this case. Who knows?
But it is extremely unlikely that they would, in the foreseeable future, ever directly confront a pilot who was acting irrationally.

But every crew member on that aircraft who had contact with the pilot could and should have been able and willing to confront him over his behaviour. Again, maybe they did.

As for the CEO et al falling on their swords, let's see if that actually happens. Don't overlook the proviso mentioned in another previous post.
Personally, I'd prefer to see them stick around and fix the problem(s).
And the problem, as I see it, is not that a single pilot got drunk and reported for duty but that he got as far as a pre-flight PA announcement before the passengers revolted and stopped the flight.
Damned right the FO (and pusser) has some explaining to do.

Now, was the pilot actually inebriated? Please see my previous comments concerning "unbelievable excuses".
If the pilot was actually just ill, then the CEO's are off the hook too, right?
And, for the record, "running amok" is traditionally regarded as temporary, aberrant behaviour and is both understandable and excusable. Even mass murder - refer "non-confrontational" in my previous post.

And finally, as for banning Indonesian airlines again (eg Garuda) because of this incident, that logic, if applied equitably, would see LH banned based on the actions of the German Wings pilot.
There have been significant improvements in the Indonesian aviation industry over the last 10 - 15 years, achieved with the considerable assistance of aircraft manufacturers (protecting their products reputation) and foreign governments (protecting the skins of their travelling citizens).
Is it all perfect now? Hell no.
What is important now is that the effort continues and that achievements are maintained. Not so easy during times of recession. We'll see how that goes too.

peekay4

31st Dec 2016, 01:16

The indonesians needs to face reality, and change.
I respect cultures but keep cultures on the ground, not in the air.

Really, testpanel?

Earlier this year an American Airlines pilot was forcibly dragged off the cockpit -- in front of horrified passengers -- before failing two sobriety tests and arrested for alcohol intoxication.

Also as discussed right here on pprune this past summer in Scotland two Canadian pilots (the Captain and the Co-Pilot) were both hauled from the cockpit and arrested for being drunk.

Just six weeks later two United pilots were also arrested at the same airport for being drunk.

And this year we also saw an Alaskan Airlines 737 pilot charged for actually flying two segments full of passengers while having a Blood Alcohol Content three times the legal limit.

That wasn't even the worse. A JetBlue Captain was charged in April for actually drinking while flying the plane, from Orlando to New York, with 151 passengers on board. His co-pilot later testified that he saw the Captain drank "an unknown beverage" during the flight, and on a previous flight, yet said nothing. The Captain was only caught due to a random post-flight test.

Yet I didn't hear a peep from you about banning UK, Canadian and US airlines from European airspace?

But due to Indonesian culture, there is no accountability in some cases and they simply get let loose after an apology.

Again, really? In the US, Canada and Europe many airline pilots previously charged for intoxication are now back in the cockpit of various airlines. ALPA (the union) fought very hard to establish a pilot rehab program (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125815793649847831).

And yes, some of them have undoubtedly relapsed. But I guess it's ok for Western pilots to get a second chance, but not for Asian pilots, right?

If this Citilink pilot was indeed intoxicated then the press will ensure that he will get the book thrown at him. But let's not pretend this is an Asian or Indonesian "cultural" issue when all the other drunk-pilot examples above make it clear that it's not. Prejudice and racism take on many forms.

ZFT

31st Dec 2016, 01:51

2 excellant posts. Let's hope this will set a new trend for 2017.

HighAndFlighty

31st Dec 2016, 02:47

Wondering if the initial intoxication tests checked for THC.

If not, it may explain the initial negative results.

I hope, for the pilot's sake, it's not the case.

Lantern10

31st Dec 2016, 03:48

bud leon

31st Dec 2016, 05:44

Resignations.

Citilink executives quit after video emerges of allegedly drunk pilot (http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/citilink-executives-quit-after-video-emerges-of-allegedly-drunk-pilot-20161231-gtk6ox.html)

I wonder how often that happens in the imagined superior cultures.

Glad to see the posts above pointing out how inane the posts are blaming Indonesian culture on this. They are particularly inane because Indonesia has relatively low alcohol consumption rates.

Also, there is no information on whether the security guards subsequently notified superiors, or whether the FO was also taking some kind of action. Posters have just jumped to a bunch of uninformed conclusions based on their prejudices.

It is true that Indonesian culture is polite and generally avoids conflict, but in my business experience Indonesians will engage in conflict as appropriate. It's also true that Indonesians avoid blame. However I've found that behaviour in almost every culture I've worked in, witnessing senior executives from western countries completely annihilate juniors' careers to protect themselves.

I actually wonder if many of these self-appointed behavioural experts actually work in asia, because although many of the cultural qualities discussed exist, they are nowhere near as dominating as so often described on this forum. They certainly need negotiating, as do the negative aspects of western cultural behaviours as well.

WingNut60

31st Dec 2016, 07:20

I wonder how often .............

I actually wonder if many of these self-appointed behavioural experts actually work in asia............

First worked in Indonesia 1978.
Last stint - resident 1996 through 2016.
Do I pass muster?

flydive1

31st Dec 2016, 07:28

Really, testpanel?

Earlier this year an American Airlines pilot was forcibly dragged off the cockpit -- in front of horrified passengers -- before failing two sobriety tests and arrested for alcohol intoxication.

Also as discussed right here on pprune this past summer in Scotland two Canadian pilots (the Captain and the Co-Pilot) were both hauled from the cockpit and arrested for being drunk.

Just six weeks later two United pilots were also arrested at the same airport for being drunk.

And this year we also saw an Alaskan Airlines 737 pilot charged for actually flying two segments full of passengers while having a Blood Alcohol Content three times the legal limit.

That wasn't even the worse. A JetBlue Captain was charged in April for actually drinking while flying the plane, from Orlando to New York, with 151 passengers on board. His co-pilot later testified that he saw the Captain drank "an unknown beverage" during the flight, and on a previous flight, yet said nothing. The Captain was only caught due to a random post-flight test.

Yet I didn't hear a peep from you about banning UK, Canadian and US airlines from European airspace?

Again, really? In the US, Canada and Europe many airline pilots previously charged for intoxication are now back in the cockpit of various airlines. ALPA (the union) fought very hard to establish a pilot rehab program (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125815793649847831).

And yes, some of them have undoubtedly relapsed. But I guess it's ok for Western pilots to get a second chance, but not for Asian pilots, right?

If this Citilink pilot was indeed intoxicated then the press will ensure that he will get the book thrown at him. But let's not pretend this is an Asian or Indonesian "cultural" issue when all the other drunk-pilot examples above make it clear that it's not. Prejudice and racism take on many forms.

Well said:ok:

Heathrow Harry

31st Dec 2016, 08:21

Wing Nut is correct - the culture is very different - I guess if you have 140+ million people in Java mainly living in one storey buildings in VERY close proximity you develope a culture of not making waves - or you spend all your time fighting the neighbours and your family.

Things are changing there - the fact the passengers kicked off is a very interesting development - but it takes a long time to change things anywhere. The Western "light the fires, kick the tyres" attitude has almost disapeared but it took decades to eliminate it

Chris2303

31st Dec 2016, 08:50

Excessive blood sugar perhaps?

I read somewhere that can manifest itself as "drunkeness"

bud leon

31st Dec 2016, 09:46

First worked in Indonesia 1978.
Last stint - resident 1996 through 2016.
Do I pass muster?

Well I don't see you making some of the broad-based criticisms others are making. However, I do think you are making assumptions about the security guards. It actually seems to me in the video that the security guard at the bottom left is concerned and may be heading off to tell someone. Another consideration is that all security guards have a narrow role and are not likely to step out of that role for fear of criticism - in any country. Is their role to apprehend suspect drunken pilots? I can imagine anyone in their position thinking that the pilot is not going to make it on to the plane without someone pulling him up. As has been discussed above it seems that in many countries pilot safeguard systems are not at the level of passenger safeguard systems. So it's better to look at the systems and not the individuals, and I imagine that is being done now. This is a global issue. In many industries where there are high risk roles it's almost impossible to access a workplace without undergoing impairment testing. It seems in many countries, including countries in the west, flying an aircraft is less well regulated. This is not about asian culture this is about the aviation industry lagging behind many safe work systems. And given recent events in western countries any attempt to blame asian culture dilutes the need for contemporary safe systems of work that seem to be missing in aviation. Forget drug or alcohol impairment, what about fatigue? The aviation industry, sadly, is falling behind other industries when it comes to managing human error. And most professionals in the industry refuse to admit it.

WingNut60

31st Dec 2016, 23:24

What is missing here is any real knowledge of what was (or wasn't) already happening to address the pilot's incapacity.
It is entirely possible that the security guys, purser and / or F/O had already initiated some intervention; but then, maybe not.
Maybe there were already police and airport authorities scratching at the door when the passengers revolted. But that is not what is being reported.
It would be very interesting to know if that was actually already happening.

Having passengers walk off a plane because they perceived that the pilot was drunk is not a good look for any airline. If in doubt, ask the airline executives who chose resignation as a consequence of this incident.

You are (almost) entirely correct. This is not the first time that a pilot has reported for work while incapacitated and it surely won't be the last; anywhere in the world. So any systematic control needs to address two requirements:

a) That incapacitated crew are identified and prevented from assuming their duties for obvious safety and operational reasons. It seems that self-policing and an honesty policy have some shortcomings in this regard.
b) That this process is transparent to the paying customers. It must occur long before the affected crew member ever gets near an airplane.

Many industries with the same problems have adopted either random or blanket drug and alcohol testing. I will risk the squeals of indignation and suggest that perhaps the aviation industry needs to take a look at this approach too.

And yes, bud_leon, this post does not address fatigue. But this thread was never about fatigue.
And I'm not sure that the two can or should be treated as related anyway, other than in a very general manner. So I'll leave that one to you.

As for Indonesia, please don't under-estimate the extent of alcohol and drug use. They are far more widely used than is commonly perceived or acknowledged.

bud leon

31st Dec 2016, 23:37

WingNut60 - I've worked in facilities where an impairment test is given rather than drug or alcohol testing. I think that is a very respectful approach and actually makes more sense. And that's why I included fatigue. The focus should be on fitness for duty. I can remember when drug and alcohol testing first became popular, on the back of massive campaigns from testing suppliers. Commercially drug and alcohol testing is much more lucrative than cognitive testing.

I don't underestimate the extent of alcohol and drug use in Indonesia.

WingNut60

1st Jan 2017, 00:50

Yes, I agree. I didn't go down that path just to keep the argument simple.
And trying to detect fatigue levels at the start of a flight may not be all that pertinent with respect long haul routes.
I suspect that fatigue detection systems as used in high-end automobiles and mining trucks, for instance, have possible uses in aviation.
Detecting fatigue once in the air may be closing the gate a little late but such systems might provide some valuable insight into the true extent of the problem.

Pearly White

1st Jan 2017, 02:18

This looks like footage of said Captain's negotiated removal from the flight deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2syfWITeTY

It doesn't look like he's taking the suggestion well.

HighAndFlighty

1st Jan 2017, 02:38

This looks like footage of said Captain's negotiated removal from the flight deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2syfWITeTY

It doesn't look like he's taking the suggestion well.

This incident is going to live long in aviation folklore.

armchairpilot94116

2nd Jan 2017, 00:27

As they say: First the man takes a drink.
Then the man takes another drink.
Then the drink takes a drink.
Then the drink takes the man.

It is nothing but sad to watch a human being destroy his career and possibly his family life.

Anilv

2nd Jan 2017, 23:52

Sad fact of flying in this part of the world is that there are a lot of rich daddies whose offspring did not do well in the academic sense... best course of action is get them a CPL and fast-track them into the LHS, voila.. my son is a "Captain".

Said offspring are typically hard partying chaps and booze and drugs are part of their scene... no problem as daddy is ever ready to bail them out.

Hard to imagine but in this part of the world there is not much of a General Aviation scene to supply pilots for the airlines. In the old days, the legacy carriers had their own cadet-ship programs, supported by some air-force pilots but due to the recent explosive expansions the easiest source for pilots are those who pay their way.

In the old days, the legacy carriers could pick the 'cream' of the school leavers, top scorers in O and A levels. Not so much now.. its more a case of meeting the minimum requirements, academically and professionally (as a pilot with CPL).

In this part of the world, the Captain is still God and most of the guys down the line know that they became captain because they had powerful friends...that's why they step carefully.

With regards to the F/O.. could it be that they were partying together? More than likely if they were away from base. That would explain the reluctance to say anything.

pfvspnf

3rd Jan 2017, 03:24

Anil , this is not the case with all the young captains out there that have worked hard and earned the maturity to pass a command course just like anybody else .

The bigger problem here is that the captain is clearly wasted and the ground staff is still treating him like a king .

Anilv

3rd Jan 2017, 08:59

pfyspnf.

I agree that there are good and bad..but in some places money and influence goes a long way...hopefully the bag of experience gets filled before the bag of luck empties.

ZFT

3rd Jan 2017, 09:42

Money and influence goes a long way everywhere!

peekay4

10th Jan 2017, 11:24

In a twist, the Citilink pilot has been cleared of any alcohol / drug use.

After the initial negative test taken right after the incident (as reported earlier (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/588896-indonesian-citylink-pilot.html#post9624972)), blood samples were sent to a state lab for a second test, which also came back negative.

Then the pilot was subjected to an extensive 2-day physical, toxicological and psychological tests at Indonesia's National Narcotics Agency (BNN). Test samples from blood, urine and hair all came back negative.

Psychological testing did reveal some anomalies, including depression.

The pilot's license and flight medical were revoked earlier -- in part based on alleged procedural violations -- and will not be reinstated.

WingNut60

10th Jan 2017, 13:26

Far be it for me to infer anything about this incident - I was not there.
However I will be in SUB in a couple of weeks and I am keen to ask a few locals what they think of this finding.

Please have a read of my previous posts (#8 and #26, I think) and see if you can spot any of the aforementioned characteristics in this outcome.

Anyway, it's nice to see that the pilot concerned has a ray of hope to cling to and that the airline executives will be able to cancel their offers of resignation.

If it quacks like a duck ....

peekay4

10th Jan 2017, 13:58

I don't think so, at least as far as the pilot's is concerned. His license will not be reinstated (rightly or wrongly) and either way his career is finished.

Even though the pilot has been cleared of substance abuse, he's still on the hook for alleged CASR violations and it looks like the (new) Minister of Transport is eager to make examples out both the pilot and Citilink for these violations.

The Citilink Board of Directors will make a decision on the exec resignations within 30 days. My guess is the damage has been done and the CEO will not be able to continue. I'm sure there are other execs within Citilink and/or Garuda who are now lobbying to take on the job. Of course, in Indonesia, anything can happen...

WingNut60

10th Jan 2017, 14:14

Yes, newspapers reporting that licence pulled permanently because testing indicated that the mental and physical health of the pilot was found to be unstable.

Pencabutan izin terbang Tekad tersebut dilakukan karena hasil tes Balai Kesehatan Penerbangan Kemenhub menyatakan kondisi Kapten Tekad tidak stabil secara kesehatan jiwa dan fisik.

Some papers making reference to use of "Gorilla Tobacco" but seems more like rumour mill at this stage.
The substance (mentioned as being AB-CHMINACA) seems to be a synthetic cannabinoid and is currently on a list of substances, in Indonesia, being evaluated for possible listing as a narcotic.

One thing about Indonesia, the truth will probably come out eventually, even if not fully verified.

HighAndFlighty

11th Jan 2017, 00:37

When I first saw the video clip of the pilot at the security point, I drew on my years of intensive self-education regarding the effects of illicit herbs and deduced that he was as high as a kite.

Some papers making reference to use of "Gorilla Tobacco" but seems more like rumour mill at this stage.
The substance (mentioned as being AB-CHMINACA) seems to be a synthetic cannabinoid and is currently on a list of substances, in Indonesia, being evaluated for possible listing as a narcotic.

This rumour fits in with my deduction quite nicely. Experience counts! :ok:

WingNut60

11th Jan 2017, 01:28

I agree. And so did more than 70 passengers down the back, if previous reports are correct.
In the video he shows all the common signs of (severe) intoxication.
However latest clarification from BNN (National Narcotics Agency) says that there were no indications of use of "Gorilla" contrary to circulating rumours.

BNN Komisaris Besar Slamet Pribadi - Slamet juga mengatakan Tekad Purna tak terbukti menggunakan narkotika jenis Gorilla atau AB-CHMINACA seperti rumor yang beredar. Zat yang mengandung ganja sintetis tersebut bisa dideteksi melalui uji laboratorium. "Berdasarkan hasil pemeriksaan, tidak ada zat yang mengindikasi dia memakai narkotik," kata Slamet.
So if it wasn't caused by a narcotic or an intoxicant, what was it that could cause a person to display such severe symptoms but only temporarily?
The pilot was simply found unfit for duty as defined by regulation CASR 67.
There is mention that he was found to be depressed, however my logic processes make me suspect that that may have arisen after the incident, not before.
And, unless I am mistaken, the downer after the high is a well known feature of many narcotic / stimulants.
I'd be interested to know how many plates of nasi goreng he consumed while undergoing examination. Do you know what I'm saying here, gents?

Selain diperiksa BNN, Tekad Purna juga diperiksa di Balai Kesehatan Penerbangan pada 28 dan 30 Desember 2016. "Hasilnya menunjukkan Tekad Purna dalam kondisi unfit," kata Direktur Kelaiakudaraan dan Pengoperasian Pesawat Udara (DKUPPU), Ditjen Perhubungan Udara, Kemenhub, Muzaffar Ismail.

Kepala Balai Kesehatan Penerbangan Medianto mendefinisikan kondisi unfit dengan, "personil penerbangan tidak memenuhi persyaratan yang tercantum dalam CASR 67." CASR kependekan dari Civil Aviation Safety Regulations atau Peraturan Keselamatan Penerbangan Sipil.Â

Sam Asama

11th Jan 2017, 02:51

There are actually quite a few diseases or afflictions that can mimic drunkenness or "being high" (Diabetes, Wilson's Disease and Ataxia to name just three). I have a friend in this business who started showing ataxia symptoms in his 40's. If this poor chap at Citilink recently developed ataxia it could account exactly for the displayed behaviour. I'm not saying I think it's the case but I certainly think it's a likely as "Gorilla tobacco". And yes, as you can tell from my pprune handle, I'm very familiar with Indonesia.

CityofFlight

11th Jan 2017, 03:27

It could also be a side effect of "roofie" or Rohypnol. It very much looks like someone who is drunk. It wouldn't be the first time air crew were slipped this drug by nefarious people. It also offers a kind of temporary anmensia to the details leading up to the time of intoxication.

WingNut60

11th Jan 2017, 03:49

I'll try to avoid the guessing game as much as possible, but whatever the cause it would need to have included:

a) sudden onset. I would presume that he was not in that state the previous evening
b) not apparent to sufferer / victim. I also presume that despite all else, he still felt fine
c) not detectable through drug and alcohol testing

Try applying those filters to ataxia, diabetes (?? - and still pass your medical), Wilson's or Rohypnol

peekay4

11th Jan 2017, 06:30

There are many neurological or psychiatric conditions which could exhibit the same symptoms -- confusion, talking in gibberish ("word salad"), hallucinations, etc. -- which by the way are all symptoms of schizophrenia. Post-even depression is also common with schizophrenics.

Sometimes there are also brief disorders with unclear causes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brief_psychotic_disorder

Annewd

11th Jan 2017, 09:54

There are indeed many medical or neurological or psychiatric conditions which could exhibit the same symptoms as others have posted earlier in this thread and some can be indistinguishable from intoxication at point of presentation. The classic one is of course hypoglycaemia (low blood sugar) in diabetes- many a custody sergeant has fallen foul of arresting someone for being drunk and disorderly only to find them dying in the cell from hypoglycaemic coma. Will be watching this thread with interest to see how it unfolds.

Radgirl

11th Jan 2017, 18:01

Of course there are medical reasons. Whereas carabinoids and benzodiazepines (eg rohypnol) are detectable for ages afterwards and very easily byr the most hamfisted lab. I know this is a rumour board, but this poor guy has been ridiculed around the world, accused of being drunk, and unless you are really claiming someone falsified the results and the lab(s) allowed this to happen, you are being highly disingenuous to a fellow pilot.

I do not know what this part of the world is like, but where is the evidence of foul play? Surely the issue is that this poor pilot has had his career removed without, it appears, a diagnosis. If he has been told he cant get his medical reinstated when we dont even have a cause then I would have thought there might be a teeny bit of outrage amongst his peers....

WingNut60

12th Jan 2017, 00:13

There is certainly now, sufficient credible information to place this incident in the realm of "reasonable doubt".
It is incumbent on neither the employer, BNN nor anyone else to reveal the true nature of his problem.
Quite the contrary, in fact. He is entitled to confidentiality regarding any genuine medical problems.
However, having extended the benefit of doubt, some questions remain.

For instance, how did he get into this situation in the first place?
Was it a known, pre-existing condition (there is / was an earlier post asserting that he had lost his position with a previous employer following a similar incident)?
Had he been concealing a condition known only to him?

I still find it strange that the Citilink executives fell so quickly onto their swords, and apparently remain impaled there, unless there is some other factor that is not being aired in public.
The possibility that comes to my mind is that the pilot had been hired under protection of those executives even though he had known problems. This is not a rumour; just wondering.

WingNut60

12th Jan 2017, 01:11

Further information - as reported in Tribun Timur newspaper

Age 32. Began his career with Air Asia Indonesia in 2009.

A pilot who claimed to know him well reported that he is a competent pilot and had shown no signs of strange behaviour while working as FO with Air Asia.
However he started "acting up" after being promoted to captain in late 2015.

Di kalangan teman-temannya sesama pilot Air Asia, Tekad dikenal baik dan tidak bertingkah yang aneh-aneh. Dia baru mulai berulah saat pangkatnya naik menjadi kapten di akhir tahun 2015 lalu.
REPORTED (not verified) that he was dismissed from Air Asia following an incident in which the cabin crew noticed him behaving in an unusual manner.
They reported his behaviour to the safety director and to operational control and the flight was stopped.
After checking on-board the aircraft it was determined (sic) that he had been using some unidentified psychotropic substance.

He had accumulated 4888 flying hours with Air Asia and had racked up a further 656 hrs with Citilink after joining them in March 2016.

Following the incident in Surabaya his employment with Citilink was initially suspended and then terminated.

The assistant director of communications for Citilink reported that the pilot had contravened fundamental conditions of employment "so no need to wait for the results of the investigation to take a decision".

But the three main areas of transgression were :

1. Compromising flight safety
2. Reporting late for duty
3. Bringing the company into disrepute.

Hotel Tango

12th Jan 2017, 10:38

:D Excellent support from his employer! If the guy had an unidentified medical condition then he most likely was not aware he was making any of these transgressions. I hope he gets medical help and a good lawyer and sues his former employer for all they're worth.

lilflyboy262...2

12th Jan 2017, 14:33

Interestingly enough, today it was reported that 2 Susi Air pilots tested positive for heroin in a random screening.

It smells AWFULLY like a cooked up story.
1) The media were there armed and ready at the time of the "Random" screening.
2) BOTH crew members tested positive. Not one. But both.
3) The crew were not from the same base, but had only been paired 10 minutes earlier due to a crew swap.
4) Happens to happen on the day that this high profile indonesian case is going to court.
5) The crew were due to fly guests to Susi's birthday party.

Both the pilots are being detained while their apartments and belongings are being poured through with a fine tooth comb, and its being decided if they are users, or part of the drugs trade scene.
A hell of a scary time for the two members that are involved. I truly hope that they do not go down because of someone wanting to redirect the spotlight on the "bad" bule (foreign) pilots

WingNut60

12th Jan 2017, 15:21

Lots of weird stuff happening in Indonesia at the moment. At least, weird by western standards.
A lot of it seems to be linked to politicking - but that's not really unusual.
And Ibu Susi certainly has her fair share of detractors.

peekay4

12th Jan 2017, 18:09

1) The media were there armed and ready at the time of the "Random" screening
That itself isn't so unusual. BNN "random screenings" are often big, visible events.

Sam Asama

15th Jan 2017, 19:06

Yes indeed, because of her heritage, her success and of course her unorthodox self, she has large groups of both supporters and detractors. She has also created a lot of enemies (even among her political colleagues) over the years, as you cannot achieve the success she has in business in Indonesia without both the carrot and the stick (paying enablers and tramping on competitors).

But there is another current tide in Indonesia that may be playing a role (is likely playing a role, I think). The repercussions of the current turmoil surrounding the governor of Jakarta are showing up lately in ways they have not in many years. Last week in Jakarta, my wife was asked to cover up in a hair and nail salon. She has been a client there for many years and this was a first (my wife is Indonesian and Jakartan). In a quiet conversation with the owner it became clear that there is a distinct increase of pressure from some sides regarding "respect for Islam".

Susi Pudjiastuti is in so many ways a symbol of what these people do not want to see (especially in a woman) and through her style and personal habits she displays what would be taken to be insulting (perhaps even blasphemous) to Islam (much public consumption of alcohol, dressing in an unconventional way, displaying lots of skin, obvious tatoos, etc).

A complex country and culture(s)...

ATCO1962

15th Jan 2017, 19:29

The Russians don't happen to be involved in the drug screening, do they?

peekay4

15th Jan 2017, 21:37

And now we have off-the-cuff remarks (http://bali.coconuts.co/2017/01/12/bad-trip-pilot-lion-air-flight-who-missed-runway-bali-was-under-influence-says-bnn) from the BNN chief stating that the Lion Air pilot involved in the 2013 Bali crash (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/512476-lionair-plane-down-bali.html) tested positive for drugs and was "hallucinating".

This contradicts the official safety board (NTSC) report on the accident which stated that post-accident tests did not detect presence of alcohol or drugs. :rolleyes:

Sam Asama

15th Jan 2017, 22:28

ATCO1962... :D

Peekay4... Though I've lived in Indonesia on several occasions and I've worked in the very heart (bowels might be a better word here) of the aviation industry there, I'm still regularly surprised by the often asinine "off the cuff" remarks of senior Indonesian officials. Another example from a couple of days ago: The Minister of Defence commented that ISIS should be invited to Papua to assist the Islamist militias in putting down protests.

Sadly, when it comes to maturing as a functioning democracy, they seem to take as many steps backward as they do forward.

peekay4

16th Jan 2017, 08:14

Local media sources are now reporting that both Susi Air pilots have been cleared by BNN.

According to officials, both pilots had consumed over-the-counter medicines / supplements which interfered with initial field test results.

BNN HQ in Jakarta performed follow-up urine & hair tests and the results came back negative.

There are more questions than answers... but importantly the pilots are being released from police custody.

I suspect many expat pilots are re-thinking their continued stay in Indonesia.

Heathrow Harry

16th Jan 2017, 13:24

Why? Nothing has changed... it's always like that

WingNut60

16th Jan 2017, 15:14

Everything said in the last 10 or so posts is ball-park correct.
It is typical and it is increasingly worrying. But it's their sandpit. They can and will play whatever games they want to play, because that is politics.

But, at a professional level things do seem to be improving, ever so slowly.
That the Susi Air guys have been exonerated is a plus.
That it was publicised and politicised in the first place is very typical, as inferred by PK4 above.

My concern is still with the original thread and that BNN cleared the pilot involved without any explanation of his current circumstances, exoneration or explanation of why he has not been publicly exonerated, if that is appropriate. It is surely not a big deal to say something like "he has been found to have medical problems and his professional future is subject to successful treatment / support".
Oh, and by the way, how are those conscientious executives getting on, just now? Still unemployed? That would be previous chief executive Albert Burhan and previous operations director Hadinoto Soedigno, after they both resigned on 30 December.
Maybe Citilink are just slow to update their website.

peekay4

16th Jan 2017, 19:25

Why? Nothing has changed... it's always like that
I think it's much worse now (~ last 5-10 years) than before? E.g., the continuing Jakarta International School (JIS) scandal; FPI evolving from low-level thuggery to becoming a national political force feared by even the country's president; the increasing radicalization of Islam and conservativeness in the country (including a national ban on alcohol now being proposed) -- etc.

In the JIS scandal, the teachers were acquitted by the High Court, released, and then re-convicted (just two days later!) by the Supreme Court. They have no concept of "double jeopardy". Even though you've been cleared, there's always that chance that the Indonesian authorities could change their minds at any time and arrest you again with no explanation.

Oh, and by the way, how are those conscientious executives getting on, just now? Still unemployed? That would be previous chief executive Albert Burhan and previous operations director Hadinoto Soedigno, after they both resigned on 30 December.
This was discussed a bit earlier... the resignations must be accepted (or rejected) by the Citilink board of directors. An extraordinary meeting of the shareholders must held within 30 days of the resignation date, so by the end of January. Until then Albert Burhan remains CEO.

No doubt there are many execs within Citilink and the larger Garuda group eager to replace Mr. Burhan, and they're all jockeying into position and making their cases behind the scenes. Also Citilink is in reality majority owned by the government so there will be political considerations as well in determining whether or not Mr. Burhan gets to stay.