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NAV INPUT
14th Dec 2016, 01:44
Rumour has it that PNG Air recently had a stick pusher activation during departure on one of their new ATR 72's. :=

mauswara
15th Dec 2016, 10:05
Nav, will this "rumour " be investigated? Worldwide the ATR's are gaining a somewhat Dubious safety record. PNG is a harsh operating environment for both man & machine.To date 1 x ATR42 already lies in a creek off the end of AYMD R25. Time will tell if the ATR is "Robust" enough for PNG.

HeartyMeatballs
15th Dec 2016, 10:37
They're robust indeed. If you know how to fly them.

ZFT
15th Dec 2016, 10:49
Nav, will this "rumour " be investigated? Worldwide the ATR's are gaining a somewhat Dubious safety record. PNG is a harsh operating environment for both man & machine.To date 1 x ATR42 already lies in a creek off the end of AYMD R25. Time will tell if the ATR is "Robust" enough for PNG.

Worldwide? Where do you get this from?

NCD
15th Dec 2016, 20:45
To date 1 x ATR42 already lies in a creek off the end of AYMD R25. Time will tell if the ATR is "Robust" enough for PNG.

And a Dash ended up busted some 10 miles short of AYMD whilst a Fokker over ran the opposite runway, AYMD 07 and ended up as a boat in the harbour.

IMHO, don't think the amount of "robustness" has anything to do with it...skill, airmanship, temperament, knowledge.... and perhaps some luck, but robust...nah.

Duck Pilot
15th Dec 2016, 21:31
Not the first time an ATR (or a Dash) has experienced a stick pusher event in PNG. Quite a few have gone unreported, especially in the early days when there was no live monitoring by operators.

mauswara
15th Dec 2016, 21:48
ZFT ,Aviation Safety Network database shows 57 hull losses since intro.

PLovett
15th Dec 2016, 23:22
They're robust indeed. If you know how to fly them.

Yeah, just ask Virgin how robust they are.

VH-FTS
16th Dec 2016, 09:14
Yeah, just ask Virgin how robust they are.

Very robust if you consider how many sectors were flown with a broken tail.

j3pipercub
16th Dec 2016, 11:39
Anyone that bends an ATR due to handling really shouldn't be flying. The worlds most docile turboprop. Will also handle a considerable amount of ice before protesting.

saabsforever
16th Dec 2016, 19:34
The over run at madang was caused by a massive overload of the forward freight compartment such that it was not even possible to raise the nose wheel to rotate. The crew did a pretty good job to recognising this and abort the take off, but by definition too late to stop at a balanced field like madang as it is already above v1. Being from Europe the crew trusted what was on the load sheet which png experienced crew are much less inclined to do. Atr accident rates do seem to be much higher than Dash 8 and Saab 340 per aircraft. But few are caused by technical fault so maybe crew experience or training is a factor.

NAV INPUT
16th Dec 2016, 19:39
Looks like this one was an Icing entry issue, but it's really only a symptom of something way deeper than just a crew action.
Rumour is that they are very thin on the ground now after a fairly large, continuous and expensive Exodus of pilots and have basically had to use their 5th ATR for AOG coverage .
If this is true, then they are losing control of their airline.
The whole operation appears to be run by accountants (with an irresponsible MFO advisor) who know the cost of people, but not their worth.

mauswara
16th Dec 2016, 21:25
Saab, as I understand it, (MD over run,) the load "cubed out" so the boi's put too much wt fwd? (800 kg's in the wrong place ??) I'm not sure I'd call that a "massive" overload. MTOW not exceeded? Overloads,out of balance & load slips are Not uncommon in PNG, & shouldn't kill you.Hangar stories abound of DC3's, Twotters & Islanders being "double loaded" (roofing iron sheets often the culprit) How is it that, overall, according to stats, Dash crews are 2.4 times better trained & more experienced? Time will tell.

KABOY
16th Dec 2016, 21:33
.Will also handle a considerable amount of ice before protesting.

Read 'Unheeded Warning' before you make a statement like that.

This aeroplane has a long history, it was only through government intervention years ago that kept this aeroplane flying.

saabsforever
16th Dec 2016, 22:47
Mauswara. It was above mtow by several hundred kg from memory, and you right that was not the issue. But it was loaded off the charts at the front c of g wise. they were most likely very lucky it was not possible to get the thing in the air.
Flew the Saab 340 A alongside an early atr 72 once both with the same company, the performance seemed to be almost the same in climb and cruise. The Saab 340 B went much better than the A and I guess the later Atr are improved also. The Saab was real hard work in icing one was lost in Argentina a few years ago due to it.
Right now I am looking forward to flying the Atr 72 so am not knocking it. There is nothing special about a Saab or Dash by comparison, maybe the Dash is a bit more robust on a dirt runway is all. I did not mean to suggest Dash pilots are 'better' but the accident figures are much lower than the Atr. Maybe the Atr is sold to places with a lower Pilot experience base as most of the accidents seem to occur in the developing world.
Back on topic this is exactly what has occurred in PNG over the last couple of years with a massive exodus of experienced people from all 3 part 121 turboprop operators. The number of incidents can be expected to increase as a result.

ZFT
17th Dec 2016, 00:28
ZFT ,Aviation Safety Network database shows 57 hull losses since intro.

I was disputing the Worldwide dubious safety record comment. Heavy or bounced landings, overruns etc, tend to be training issues not airframe related issues.

das Uber Soldat
17th Dec 2016, 21:46
Read 'Unheeded Warning' before you make a statement like that.

This aeroplane has a long history, it was only through government intervention years ago that kept this aeroplane flying.
I think maybe his several thousand command hours in the aircraft qualify him to make a statement like that over reading about someone elses 20 year old opinion about a pre modded aircraft.

You know, maybe.

No doubt that in its pre modded state the thing required intervention, but as it is now, as much as it pains me (and it does, I can't stand the little shit), j3 is correct.

Ive flown the thing through a veritable iceberg and it was happy enough.

NAV INPUT
25th Jan 2017, 01:17
The ATR isn't perfect in icing conditions, however follow the procedure and use some common sense and it gets the job done. This incident has more to do with failed leadership within a company, than the perils of turboprop icing.