PNG AIR ATR Stick Push?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: darwin australia
Posts: 107
Nav, will this "rumour " be investigated? Worldwide the ATR's are gaining a somewhat Dubious safety record. PNG is a harsh operating environment for both man & machine.To date 1 x ATR42 already lies in a creek off the end of AYMD R25. Time will tell if the ATR is "Robust" enough for PNG.
N4790P
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 70
Posts: 2,077
Originally Posted by mauswara
Nav, will this "rumour " be investigated? Worldwide the ATR's are gaining a somewhat Dubious safety record. PNG is a harsh operating environment for both man & machine.To date 1 x ATR42 already lies in a creek off the end of AYMD R25. Time will tell if the ATR is "Robust" enough for PNG.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seth Afrika
Posts: 124
To date 1 x ATR42 already lies in a creek off the end of AYMD R25. Time will tell if the ATR is "Robust" enough for PNG.
IMHO, don't think the amount of "robustness" has anything to do with it...skill, airmanship, temperament, knowledge.... and perhaps some luck, but robust...nah.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: new zealand
Posts: 88
Madang prang
The over run at madang was caused by a massive overload of the forward freight compartment such that it was not even possible to raise the nose wheel to rotate. The crew did a pretty good job to recognising this and abort the take off, but by definition too late to stop at a balanced field like madang as it is already above v1. Being from Europe the crew trusted what was on the load sheet which png experienced crew are much less inclined to do. Atr accident rates do seem to be much higher than Dash 8 and Saab 340 per aircraft. But few are caused by technical fault so maybe crew experience or training is a factor.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: moresby
Posts: 5
Looks like this one was an Icing entry issue, but it's really only a symptom of something way deeper than just a crew action.
Rumour is that they are very thin on the ground now after a fairly large, continuous and expensive Exodus of pilots and have basically had to use their 5th ATR for AOG coverage .
If this is true, then they are losing control of their airline.
The whole operation appears to be run by accountants (with an irresponsible MFO advisor) who know the cost of people, but not their worth.
Rumour is that they are very thin on the ground now after a fairly large, continuous and expensive Exodus of pilots and have basically had to use their 5th ATR for AOG coverage .
If this is true, then they are losing control of their airline.
The whole operation appears to be run by accountants (with an irresponsible MFO advisor) who know the cost of people, but not their worth.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: darwin australia
Posts: 107
Saab, as I understand it, (MD over run,) the load "cubed out" so the boi's put too much wt fwd? (800 kg's in the wrong place ??) I'm not sure I'd call that a "massive" overload. MTOW not exceeded? Overloads,out of balance & load slips are Not uncommon in PNG, & shouldn't kill you.Hangar stories abound of DC3's, Twotters & Islanders being "double loaded" (roofing iron sheets often the culprit) How is it that, overall, according to stats, Dash crews are 2.4 times better trained & more experienced? Time will tell.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bottom of the Harbour
Posts: 269
.Will also handle a considerable amount of ice before protesting.
This aeroplane has a long history, it was only through government intervention years ago that kept this aeroplane flying.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: new zealand
Posts: 88
Mauswara. It was above mtow by several hundred kg from memory, and you right that was not the issue. But it was loaded off the charts at the front c of g wise. they were most likely very lucky it was not possible to get the thing in the air.
Flew the Saab 340 A alongside an early atr 72 once both with the same company, the performance seemed to be almost the same in climb and cruise. The Saab 340 B went much better than the A and I guess the later Atr are improved also. The Saab was real hard work in icing one was lost in Argentina a few years ago due to it.
Right now I am looking forward to flying the Atr 72 so am not knocking it. There is nothing special about a Saab or Dash by comparison, maybe the Dash is a bit more robust on a dirt runway is all. I did not mean to suggest Dash pilots are 'better' but the accident figures are much lower than the Atr. Maybe the Atr is sold to places with a lower Pilot experience base as most of the accidents seem to occur in the developing world.
Back on topic this is exactly what has occurred in PNG over the last couple of years with a massive exodus of experienced people from all 3 part 121 turboprop operators. The number of incidents can be expected to increase as a result.
Flew the Saab 340 A alongside an early atr 72 once both with the same company, the performance seemed to be almost the same in climb and cruise. The Saab 340 B went much better than the A and I guess the later Atr are improved also. The Saab was real hard work in icing one was lost in Argentina a few years ago due to it.
Right now I am looking forward to flying the Atr 72 so am not knocking it. There is nothing special about a Saab or Dash by comparison, maybe the Dash is a bit more robust on a dirt runway is all. I did not mean to suggest Dash pilots are 'better' but the accident figures are much lower than the Atr. Maybe the Atr is sold to places with a lower Pilot experience base as most of the accidents seem to occur in the developing world.
Back on topic this is exactly what has occurred in PNG over the last couple of years with a massive exodus of experienced people from all 3 part 121 turboprop operators. The number of incidents can be expected to increase as a result.
N4790P
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 70
Posts: 2,077
Originally Posted by mauswara
ZFT ,Aviation Safety Network database shows 57 hull losses since intro.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 72
Read 'Unheeded Warning' before you make a statement like that.
This aeroplane has a long history, it was only through government intervention years ago that kept this aeroplane flying.
This aeroplane has a long history, it was only through government intervention years ago that kept this aeroplane flying.
You know, maybe.
No doubt that in its pre modded state the thing required intervention, but as it is now, as much as it pains me (and it does, I can't stand the little shit), j3 is correct.
Ive flown the thing through a veritable iceberg and it was happy enough.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: moresby
Posts: 5
The ATR isn't perfect in icing conditions, however follow the procedure and use some common sense and it gets the job done. This incident has more to do with failed leadership within a company, than the perils of turboprop icing.
