View Full Version : Heart Attack during taxi
paperHanger
3rd Dec 2016, 03:13
In case you missed it:
Airliner pilot suffers heart attack at Glasgow Airport - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38189194)
tl; dr;
Dutch pilot has heart attack while leaving the gate at Glasgow ...
Close call?
Could have been much worse if PF and at rotation...
stilton
3rd Dec 2016, 04:57
That's why there's two Pilots DM.
Well, yes but...
Having the PF release the stick / clutch it tightly at 50ft is going to tax the most capable pilot.
I think "much worse" is probably the right term here. Even if the FO manages to get on top of the situation instantly, it's a good few minutes before the a/c is back on the ground and the Captain can receive medical attention !
Wonder if it is an extraordinary circumstance that the flight was subsequently cancelled. To me the answer is obvious but perhaps not to bottom-feeding scum.
Doors to Automatic
3rd Dec 2016, 11:30
Obvious? I know O'Leary would like to disagree but you still need two pilots to operate a flight.
Globally Challenged
3rd Dec 2016, 12:05
A regular practice item in the sim - and one of the key reasons for the 60/70/80 kts etc call during the takeoff roll.
GC got there first, but What is a regular practice item? And how do those speed calls impact on an incapacitation scenario >80kts?
The co-pilot of the plane, which had 128 people on board, took the aircraft back to the gate.
I wonder how he did that. Where was the a/c when it stopped? Does the KLM have tillers both sides? Did, OMG, the F/O dare to slip into the LHS, show initiative and risk lack of insurance by taxi-ing the a/c? Was it still on the tug, or tug returned?
What would you do, as an F/O, if it happened during takeoff roll?
If between 80-V1 would you Go or Stop?
If you stopped would you clear the runway if you could, or block it?
Have you been trained to RTO from RHS; those that are captain only airlines?
Has this scenario ever been discussed in training?
noflynomore
3rd Dec 2016, 14:26
I hope no one would risk the poor guy's life by wasting another 30 sec taxi (sic) off the runway instead of stopping asap and calling for a nurse/doctor - Just to save a bit of inconvenience? I hope not... If I was the Captain - or a friend or relative of his I wouldn't be thanking you for that, I can assure you.
How could an FO not have practiced this? It simply isn't possible to practice incap procedure if the FO can't stop the a/c!!!
SloppyJoe
3rd Dec 2016, 14:32
I hope no one would risk the poor guy's life by wasting another 30 sec taxi
Are you serious, stop on the runway, then what, blow a slide and slide him down? Taxi to the gate, call for a doctor, ask CC to assist if doc onboard or AED onboard, that is the quickest option. If an FO can't do that they should not be in the seat.
clutch it tightly at 50ft is going to tax the most capable pilot.
He had a heart attack, he did not decide to kill himself and everyone onboard.
Globally Challenged
3rd Dec 2016, 14:33
@RAT
I would hope you would do what you briefed.
My brief is that either of us can call STOP for anything up to 80kts and we will only abort between 80 and V1 for significant items including Engine Fire / Failure (confirmed with 2 parameters), smoke, blocked controls / runway, pilot incapacitation, any master warning (this is a type which suppresses non-urgent messages between 60 kts and 400') or anything else that will stop us safely getting in to the air.
Short answer - yes I would reject.
It has come up in the sim - and I don't recall being in an operator where a RHS RTO has not come up (I've only ever operated where if RHS is PF then they have control throughout the takeoff)
How could an FO not have practiced this? It simply isn't possible to practice incap procedure if the FO can't stop the a/c!!!
It is when the 'tick in the box' incap exercise starts in the air during gear or flaps up and finishes when PM call the CC's.
I would hope you would do what you briefed.
It has come up in the sim - and I don't recall being in an operator where a RHS RTO has not come up (I've only ever operated where if RHS is PF then they have control throughout the takeoff)
And therein lies the rub. I've never worked for an airline where RHS can call stop or action an RTO. Hence it is not briefed. I've worked for only 1 company with RHS tillers. I've only worked for 1 enlightened company where the incap was during takeoff roll and RHS made an RTO and then stayed on the runway as no tiller. There was never ending discussion whether they were allowed to take a hi-speed exit using rudder pedal only. It is possible as I used to demo on LT, as an extra. I used to let F/O's taxi with rudder pedal only just to see what radius the a/c could make. Surely it's part of learning how to control an a/c, but evidently not when suggested to HOT as an LT syllabus item.
The debate whether to stop on runway or vacate will rage on for pages, I'm sure.
FlightDetent
3rd Dec 2016, 19:10
The debate whether to stop on runway or vacate will rage on for pages, I'm sure
Vacate. End of page?
Chronus
3rd Dec 2016, 19:34
Vacate. End of page?
Not just yet. Bound to raise questions such as, when was his last medical, was he on any kind of pills, did he suffer with headaches, did the airline know anything about it, was there any kind of medical history, was he becoming short tempered, how many miles did he cycle to work, what about the adequacy of medical examinations...., is it a good scare me story, the list goes on.
clark y
3rd Dec 2016, 20:06
Chronus, I took it to mean that, in the sim, the exercise for incapacitation usually stops once the runway is vacated.
As for the comments about clutching the controls tightly, I wouldn't know if a heart attack would cause you to seize or relax but I remember reading about one from the 70s-80s where one of the pilots had a seizure. This caused major control difficulties on final approach as one of his legs seized in the extended position on a rudder pedal. Think it was in Salt Lake City.
Chronus
3rd Dec 2016, 20:28
Apologies for the misunderstanding and thanks for the clarification clark y. You have reminded me of last year`s LEA B200 crash out of Stapleford. The AAIB concluded with the possibility that the pilot had a coronary and the pilot assistant was not, for reasons unknown unable to intervene in time. That particular accident occurred within a couple of minutes after t/o.
golfyankeesierra
3rd Dec 2016, 20:32
All this stuff about vacating the runway or not is just hypothetical. The article states they were taxiing to the runway..
How could an FO not have practiced this? It simply isn't possible to practice incap procedure if the FO can't stop the a/c!!!
It is when the 'tick in the box' incap exercise starts in the air during gear or flaps up and finishes when PM call the CC's.
I would hope you would do what you briefed.
It has come up in the sim - and I don't recall being in an operator where a RHS RTO has not come up (I've only ever operated where if RHS is PF then they have control throughout the takeoff)
And therein lies the rub. I've never worked for an airline where RHS can call stop or action an RTO. Hence it is not briefed. I've worked for only 1 company with RHS tillers. I've only worked for 1 enlightened company where the incap was during takeoff roll and RHS made an RTO and then stayed on the runway as no tiller. There was never ending discussion whether they were allowed to take a hi-speed exit using rudder pedal only. It is possible as I used to demo on LT, as an extra. I used to let F/O's taxi with rudder pedal only just to see what radius the a/c could make. Surely it's part of learning how to control an a/c, but evidently not when suggested to HOT as an LT syllabus item.
The debate whether to stop on runway or vacate will rage on for pages, I'm sure.
Hi RAT
I'm sure most FOs today still have common sense, surely you hadn't forgotten this, in the front of FCOMs QRHs it states that they can't cover every possible scenario.
As for using high speed taxi ways with the tiller, some Manuela state that you don't use the tiller about 30kts, high speed taxi ways can be used at 60kts.
Differential braking??
Good luck!!
Long Haul
3rd Dec 2016, 22:27
Yes, KLM aircraft also have tillers on the right side, and the FO's taxi themselves when PF. They practice incapacitation during the takeoff roll.
noflynomore
3rd Dec 2016, 22:50
Taxi to the gate, call for a doctor, ask CC to assist if doc onboard or AED onboard, that is the quickest option. If an FO can't do that they should not be in the seat.
Wot, at Heathrow? Sloppy Joe, I would hate to be you or your conscience if your Capt pegged it under the circumstances suggested and you did this. On the other hand I would LOVE to be your prosecuting lawyer. I would crucify you for that. If I had sold you life insurance I'd withdraw that instantly, for fear of what you'd do when you finally woke up to reality...
Jeez! Talk about the milk of human kindness - or not.
Noflymore
I hope no one would risk the poor guy's life by wasting another 30 sec taxi (sic) off the runway instead of stopping asap and calling for a nurse/doctor - Just to save a bit of inconvenience? I hope not... If I was the Captain - or a friend or relative of his I wouldn't be thanking you for that, I can assure you.
So you've stopped on the runway, called for a doctor. There isn't one on board. Now what?
As for Heathrow, (since you mentioned it in your last post ): If you land having declared a medical emergency at LHR you don't then stop on the runway or even just off it, you go to a gate because that's the place where it is easiest for paramedics to quickly and safely access the aircraft (via steps or a jetty).
Every situation will be different but I'd say at many airports Sloppy Joe's game plan of heading for a gate or at least taxiing to the apron whilst first aid is being administered is entirely sensible.
paperHanger
4th Dec 2016, 16:57
I guess the sort of people who stop at the end of the runway in this type of situation are the same people you see coming to a stop when driving their cars every time they see a blue light behind them .. regardless of whether the ambulance can get past.
The objective is to get assistance to the subject as quickly as possible, unless you see a set of steps and a paramedic at the end of the runway, taxi back to the apron or gate sounds like a significantly better plan.
HighAndFlighty
4th Dec 2016, 17:18
Could a mod please change the thread title to Heart Attack while Taxiing? I'm sure the current poorly structured title is grating on the nerves of many readers of this forum.
Smilin_Ed
4th Dec 2016, 19:05
If an FO can't do that they should not be in the seat.What if it is Bonin in the right seat?:eek:
I hope no one would risk the poor guy's life by wasting another 30 sec taxi (sic) off the runway instead of stopping asap and calling for a nurse/doctor - Just to save a bit of inconvenience? I hope not... If I was the Captain - or a friend or relative of his I wouldn't be thanking you for that, I can assure you.
How could an FO not have practiced this? It simply isn't possible to practice incap procedure if the FO can't stop the a/c!!!
some facts re Glasgow (I was on the EZY two behind the KLM, so we got a fairly comprehensive explanation from our captain):
the KLM was brought to a stop on the taxiway right in front of the fire station. If you can't get rapid assistance there, I don't know where you can given that turning round on the taxiway was not an option. Job well done, I'd have thought.
Following aircraft were eventually routed to the SW end of runway then backtracked for takeoff from RW23.
Capt Ecureuil
5th Dec 2016, 10:53
Come on then noflynomore as a loved up, crucifying, prosecuting, not to mention milk of human kindness lawyer , what would like to see being done at Heathrow in such a situation?
Rats - forgot to mention Life insurance salesman :rolleyes:
Chris2303
5th Dec 2016, 14:32
So anyway, how is the Captain?
Checkboard
5th Dec 2016, 16:51
In hospital, recovering.
Apparently the aircraft stopped (whether by 'accident' as that's where it happened or on purpose I'm not sure) on the taxiway abeam the Scottish Ambulance Service Hangar (GAMA) whereby the Glasgow Airport Fire Service used a ladder to access the aircraft to assist the pilot along with a Doctor on board, possibly also assisted by the Scottish Ambulance Service personnel from the building adjacent, main thing is he's still alive, 5-10 minutes later and it could have been oh so different, well done all Involved.
oliver2002
5th Dec 2016, 20:45
An A330 diverted to KHI recently: http://avherald.com/h?article=4a181d76&opt=0
CPT had a heart attack, F/O landed after diversion and stayed on the rwy.
Glasgow Airport Fire Service used a ladder to access the aircraft to assist the pilot along with a Doctor on board,
B737 EB190 F100 all have air stairs. What kind of a/c was this?
cordwainer
6th Dec 2016, 01:08
Apologies if my first post here seems snarky, I don't really mean it that way....but having read through this thread a couple of times, um, RAT 5, you seem to be having a temporary attack of "missing the point". It frankly appears everyone involved considered speed of treatment to be the most important factor. They are quite correct time is of the essence in case of heart attack. Literally every second counts. If a ladder is faster than deploying airstairs - in order to get emergency help to the patient in time - then for heavens sake what does it MATTER what kind of a/c it was? They got him treatment within 10 minutes. Onboard a commercial aircraft in the middle of taxiing to the runway, that's a bloody miracle. You can hardly get an ambulance to most people that fast. Kudos to the F/O. Seriously.
Lookleft
6th Dec 2016, 01:24
What would a lawyer be prosecuting for? The Captain is now the responsibility of the F/A's and the F/O is now PIC responsible for the safe conduct of the aircraft and all the other pax. If they choose to taxi back to the gate and they get the appropriate clearance and its all done within the airline SOPs a lawyer is just being hysterical.
DaveReidUK
6th Dec 2016, 07:14
Our aspiring lawyer would be wise not to give up the day job.
sleeper
6th Dec 2016, 07:55
Glasgow Airport Fire Service used a ladder to access the aircraft to assist the pilot along with a Doctor on board,
B737 EB190 F100 all have air stairs. What kind of a/c was this?
Klm b737 do not have air stairs.
H Peacock
6th Dec 2016, 08:33
I hope no one would risk the poor guy's life by wasting another 30 sec taxi (sic) off the runway instead of stopping asap and calling for a nurse/doctor - Just to save a bit of inconvenience? I hope not... If I was the Captain - or a friend or relative of his I wouldn't be thanking you for that I can assure you.
Do both, ie as long as someone is already attending to the patient, call for a doctor/medic while you continue to taxi back towards the terminal. This is an emergency with a potential loss of life. If you're a long way from external assistance why on earth would you stop!
Klm b737 do not have air stairs. Although the KLM examples are apparently not run of the mill examples of the 737, it is true that the airstair is a customer option that many, especially legacy carriers, choose not to take. Carrying around all that extra weight makes only sense if you use it very often.
I believe,the same was true for the F100.
DaveReidUK
6th Dec 2016, 11:46
What kind of a/c was this?
737-700
Although the KLM examples are apparently not run of the mill examples of the 737
Out of interest, what's different about KLM's ?
Yaw String
8th Dec 2016, 08:21
Here we go again...professional pilots disagreeing about how to deal with incapacitation....and we have the same disagreements over how to evacuate,..how to reject....etc etc.
Interesting isn't it....after all this time,all this training,we still don't all agree on non normal procedures....
Why is that? because we are all human...maybe!!!
One thing is for sure..we are all experts in our own individual fields..lol...
DaveReidUK
8th Dec 2016, 08:47
Out of interest, what's different about KLM's ?
but answer came there none ...
Yaw String
professional pilots arguing about how to deal with incapacitation....and we have the same disagreements over how to evacuate,..how to reject....etc etc.
Interesting isn't it....after all this time,all this training,we still don't all agree on common procedures...
To be fair I rather suspect most if not all of the professional pilots and other aviation professionals here know every situation is different and therefore there's no unique solution to the problem in question. In these sort of situations I'm reminded of a comment made by the late Neil Armstrong about decision making - he once advocated reserving "the right to be wishy washy".
As to this topic whether the only individual who strongly advocated a one size fits all solution (stand on the brakes, call for help, and and sue anyone who doesn't comply) is an aviation professional and/or has a professional pilots licence is AFAIK unknown.
Uplinker
8th Dec 2016, 17:07
The RHS in any Airbus/Boeing/twin crew aircraft has a set of brake pedals, a set of flight controls and the F/O can reach the thrust levers, so of course an F/O can perform an RTO. I mean, trained or not, you're not going to just sit there and watch the aircraft pile towards the perimeter fence or over a cliff without doing anything are you?!
If the take-off has to be continued and controls are being gripped, the Airbus F/O can simply press and hold his/her red disconnect button to disable the Captain's side-stick. (Does the Boeing have a physical yoke disconnect?)
All FBW Airbus have RHS tillers, but not all company's allow RHS to taxi.
Our company regularly trains for Captain incap on take-off followed by RTO performed by F/O. Our RHS seat also taxis, so F/O could RTO and taxi to a gate.
Heathrow, for one, is a very big place and it would probably be quicker for the aircraft to 'follow the greens' to a gate than for ATC to 'taxi' paramedics possibly a mile or so across the airfield out to the aircraft.
All commercial flights have two pilots for exactly this sort of scenario, and in my opinion, this sort of thing illustrates why it is daft not to allow F/Os to taxi (if a RHS tiller is fitted).