Daily Mail and fatigue

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Some cost-cutting airlines are making pilots work even longer hours | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3992306/So-pilot-falling-asleep-38-000ft-Terrifying-insight-cost-cutting-airlines-making-pilots-work-longer-hours.html)

Like the Ryanair comment

[172_driver]

Like the Ryanair comment

Like a broken record, it's been the same for the past 10 years

[recall_checked]

Ryanair concludes: ‘Fatigue as a result of flying is almost non-existent in Ryanair. Rare cases have arisen in the past but mainly due to issues outside of work (i.e. sick children etc).’

I have never heard anything so irresponsible...and factually incorrect.

[A and C]

I find my self almost unable to say this but The Daliy Mail has published something about aviation that contains more truth than hype or downright lies.

Fatigue is a real issue and needs to be addressed, his the mail touched on as well as the disruption of sleep patterns that is the primary cause of fatigue.

[ExDubai]

Perhaps I and the other pilots who worked for a small company in Scotland must have imagined doing 900 hour each year. Day - night flying week about too. Oh, and we didn't have autopilots and we often operated single crew 8 sectors days too.

Kids today, eh.
You're our hero ;)

[ExDubai]

I find my self almost unable to say this but The Daliy Mail has published something about aviation that contains more truth than hype or downright lies.

Fatigue is a real issue and needs to be addressed, his the mail touched on as well as the disruption of sleep patterns that is the primary cause of fatigue.
No casualties so nobody cares.

[sirwa69]

Some of us work more than 2000 hours a year and that still allows us to have a full 8 hours sleep each night and 2 days off every week ans 2 weeks holiday a year, FFS don't know yer born.

[noflynomore]

The only outright lies in this article were apparently made by some cynical slave-driving propagandist at Ryanair.

For once, well done the DM!

[RAT 5]

Someone should make a charge of 'being economical with the truth' against RYR.

[Oldaircrew]

Some of us work more than 2000 hours a year and that still allows us to have a full 8 hours sleep each night and 2 days off every week ans 2 weeks holiday a year, FFS don't know yer born.

Your ignorance is showing. The hours per year are only the time from pushback to park. It does not include sims, sign on and sign off times nor time between sectors. It sure as hell doesn't include the effects of getting up at weird times of the night or overnight flights. For some of us, time zones also play an important part in fatigue management.

[Loose rivets]

900 hour each year. Day - night flying week about too. Oh, and we didn't have autopilots and we often operated single crew 8 sectors days too.

LUXURY!!! Our boss used to make us get up before we'd gone to bed, sweep the runway and lick the ice off the wings.


I can't remember a time in the last 50 years this hasn't been an issue right across the industry. I used to fly with one bloke who'd ask for me when he was going to drive ooop north in the early hours. As a sprog, I'd enjoy spending a couple of hours under the stars single crewing. "Don't you land it!" He used to say, as he was nodding off.

Didn't do much good. Smashed himself up really badly after one flight. Odd thought comes to mind. He might not have done that if he'd been with me that night.

It wasn't allowed then. If I'd even shut my eyes for a moment, it's likely I'd be prodded with an angry finger. The glared rebuke on one occasion was worse than the prod.

One company. 500 hours a year. Penalty to the company for going over that was £50 per hour - IN 1972. That was one heck of a lot of money back then.

Next company, just legal limits but even then several guys would go over the yearly maximum of 1,000. Fantastic flying though.

[A and C]

While I think you have hit the nail on the head with the "no casualties no one cares " comment the driver for better rostering and more crews will come from the number of pilots who go to their doctors with problems as the result of fatigue.

Eventually it will become cheaper to employ a few more pilots rather than pay pilots to sit at home on the sick with fatigue...........as always money will be the driving force.

[Dairyground]

Eventually it will become cheaper to employ a few more pilots rather than pay pilots to sit at home on the sick with fatigue...........as always money will be the driving force.


But if your pilots are "self-employed" you don't pay them when they are off sick, so you don't care.


On a slightly different theme, when Australian train drivers wore found to be falling asleep when their train was crossing the many miles of the flat, featureless Nullabor Plain, the solution was to introduce the "Dead Man's Handle". The deadman has two states, say UP and DOWN. It does not any direct effect on the train when operating normally, but if its state is not changed from UP to DOWN, or vice versa, every few seconds, the drive is disengaged and the brakes applied.

You cannot apply the brakes on an aircraft in flight, but it should be easy to set up the system to make a loud noise if neither the flight controls nor the deadman are moved within a specified time.

[wiggy]

it should be easy to set up the system to make a loud noise if neither the flight controls nor the deadman are moved within a specified time.

It's already been done.

Such a function has already been around for years on some types ..it's called "pilot alert", "pilot response" or similar. Lack of pilot activity (usually the system monitors switch selections) after a predefined period(s) starts triggering warning messages and fairly soon thereafter loud noises.

However your still treating the symptom, not the underlying cause.

[RAT 5]

But if your pilots are "self-employed" you don't pay them when they are off sick, so you don't care.

That's what needs shutting down PDQ: and it is all in their own hands = the pilots. Own worse enemies. Have been since 70's. It's all come back to sting them.

What has been the effect on annual production with those companies who used not to use a rolling duty roster but zero'd hours at a convenient date for the company, but are not now allowed to do so? (is that the case under EASA?) This included not crediting accumulated annual hours already in the log-book when joining, but starting from zero? It was very easy to go >FTL limit in a rolling 12 months. But which self-employed pilot is going to refuse to work for some more dosh having coff'd up for much of the costs during transition?

[Phantom Driver]

LUXURY!!! Our boss used to make us get up before we'd gone to bed, sweep the runway and lick the ice off the wings. Sweep the runway ? LUXURY!!!! We used to have to lick taxiway clean wit' tongue.
(good old Monty P days ; took the sting out of long duty days/nights on Taceval)

[RAT 5]

We used to have to lick taxiway clean wit' tongue.

Runway? LUXURY. Grass. Ya wouldn't want to be licking that! Hey Sid, winds from up north; shift them cows to the east a bit and let's get going. While yer at it, the sheep to the west. I'll gi ya a low pass on th' eturn so as ya can light the fire drums. In ta wind this time ya sorry excuse for a .............

[A and C]

I agree with the effects of so called self employment but not having crews to fly the aircraft is also an economic driver, especially when the pax start claiming the compensation for delayed flights that is EU law.

As I said above, money will drive he situation.

[ExDubai]

While I think you have hit the nail on the head with the "no casualties no one cares " comment the driver for better rostering and more crews will come from the number of pilots who go to their doctors with problems as the result of fatigue.

Eventually it will become cheaper to employ a few more pilots rather than pay pilots to sit at home on the sick with fatigue...........as always money will be the driving force.
I agree. But how do you want to explain that to a pilot at FR? The guy has a contract with one of those filthy agencies, and he doesn't get paid when he is sick. And we booth know that there are more companies like FR out there.

16 years ago a german electronic store created the marketing slogan "meanness is cool". And that's the way how people in our days purchase their tickets. As long as people are able to puchase a ticket from point X to spain for 50€ or less, nothing will change.

[RAT 5]

Interesting in the light of a discussed strike at Virgin.

by Richard Branson:

"Companies do not need to look after customers; companies need to look after employees and they will look after customers." or words to that affect. Quoted in UK papers during the past couple of weeks; implying that if the company creates a correct culture with its employees then they will carry that through to the customer, and everyone wins. It makes perfect sense, but does it happen in your outfit?

[ExDubai]

I agree with the effects of so called self employment but not having crews to fly the aircraft is also an economic driver, especially when the pax start claiming the compensation for delayed flights that is EU law.

As I said above, money will drive he situation.
Not enough crews? Easy solution, lower the minimums. At least that's the way how certain outfits are working....

[Popgun]

for every knackered co-pilot at easyjet/ryanair on £18,000 a year, there are fifty pilots who would kill for his job, and probably do it for less pay.


Too true unfortunately. The race to the bottom has still not finished.

PG

[AtomKraft]

Daily Mail and Fatigue?

How about, I'm tired of reading the Daily Bl#$dy Mail?

[Uplinker]

To the non pilots: There is a difference between FLIGHT duty hours and duty hours: The 900/1100 FLIGHT duty hours per year limit ONLY includes the time from pushing an aircraft back to brakes-on at the destination stand, i.e., they are ONLY the hours spent actually moving the aircraft: - taxiing and being airborne*. The 900/1100 hours do not include the daily:-


20+ mins getting from the airport carpark to the crew room.
Pre-flight briefing time, going through security and being taken out to the aircraft.
Preparation time (programming, fuelling, loading, deicing, etc) on EACH sector before pushing back.
Waiting on stand for your slot to expire.
The hour on turnaround preparing the aircraft again at your destination down-route.
The post flight time completing the tech log, talking to engineers and on-coming crew, getting back to the crew-room and completing the post flight paperwork.
20+ mins getting back to your car.
AND sometimes: 2-4 hours being driven or driving yourself from your home base to another base before doing all of the above, (because they are short of crews at another base).


Depending on duties, a pilot's minimum time on duty is about 8 hours, maximum can be 16+ hours.


To my fellow pilots, and cabin crew (at the risk of sounding all preachy):

If you are fatigued - for any reason** - put in a fatigue report.
If you are too tired to drive home and have done more than 16 hours duty, Crewing are obliged to put you in a hotel or get a taxi to drive you home and back the next day to get your car, because they have a duty of care to their employees. (At least, this is what my company do and I think it is a legal requirement - check with yours).
So you never need to risk crashing your car and injuring/killing yourself when you drive home.


*Depending on schedules, We also work Saturdays and Sundays, Bank holidays, Public holidays, Christmas Eve, Chhristmas day, Boxing day, New Year's eve and New year's day, and overnight flights.

**If you are fatigued, then you are fatigued.
If you couldn't sleep because your neighbours had a party, then you are still fatigued. If you are fatigued, you should not fly - it's the law.

[Zeus]

Small Cog
Perhaps I and the other pilots who worked for a small company in Scotland must have imagined doing 900 hour each year. Day - night flying week about too. Oh, and we didn't have autopilots and we often operated single crew 8 sectors days too.

Yes, I was there. Same routine. Remember being told to keep a record of my hours in pencil NOT pen until the end of the month, then to "tidy them up"! Also remember some pilots being taken off the line because they had exceeded the 900 hr limit. 100 hrs in 28 days was also a problem.
Now I bore young FOs with "tales of daring do" from the past and can see they have grown up in a totally different environment.
(Once nearly tried licking the runway in the frozen North but it was covered in ice...)

The Daily Mail article is unusually factual and addresses issues which unfortunately our MEPs could not (or would not) understand.

[wiggy]

If you are too tired to drive home and have done more than 16 hours duty, Crewing are obliged to put you in a hotel or get a taxi to drive you home and back the next day to get your car, because they have a duty of care to their employees. (At least, this is what my company do and I think it is a legal requirement - check with yours).

Pretty much +1, though we may be at the same outfit.

I think the legal situation (as it was explained to me) was if you chose to drive home after a FDP ( "shift") that went as planned/rostered then it was your responsibility to ensure you were fit to drive..

OTOH if the FDP was extended beyond the original plan a duty of care fell upon the company, not just the individual, to ensure the individual didn't drive if unfit to do so.

TBH not sure if this has been tested in law.

[RAT 5]

1. If you are fatigued - for any reason** - put in a fatigue report.

There's a Catch 22 here. You fly home on last sector and put in a fatigue report; thereby declaring you shouldn't have flown home on theist sector.

2. If you are too tired to drive home and have done more than 16 hours duty, Crewing are obliged to put you in a hotel or get a taxi to drive you home and back the next day to get your car, because they have a duty of care to their employees. (At least, this is what my company do and I think it is a legal requirement - check with yours).

I think you will find that the 'self-employed???' pilots could write whatever rules they like in their own company manual, and when they ask the crewing dept of their single customer to action such a clause they will be told "what part of fek off don't you understand." You could then submit a bill for local hotel to the company salaries dept and receive the same response. You could then submit a claim to the 'agency' who contract you and be told to contact the customer who will repeat their earlier response. 'Duty of care' and 'pie in the sky' are bother & sister in the real world.
I did work for an airline, as long ago as the enlightened 80's, unionised and run by line pilots, who did offer this sensible arrangement. You had gone over the top for them, they reciprocated. However, it was after a C/A had crashed her car en-route home and was severely injured. Then the troops started making noises and management could not ignore it. But then again, we were all proper employees.

I'm not familiar with the latest EASA FTL's so I ask this out of curiosity. In 90's I was operating a long-haul a/c on a UK AOC. Limits were 100/28. I was rostered a USA trip with a 2 local night stop over for FTL reasons. Thus there was a 'day off' down route. I was departing on day 28 with 96hours accumulated. I would land on day 28 with 108hrs. I phoned crewing and queried this. "It is legal to depart <100hrs." OH? I phoned BALPA. Their reply was it was a grey area and the CAA interpretation, when asked, was also unclear. They did say that BA did not operate so close, because if they landed en-route or diverted, then the crew was grounded. How can a legal limit be grey? was my question. Anyway, it seemed that rostering used this 'loop hole' to land you >100hrs, use the day off the reduce the rolling total to <100hrs and then you would fly home and land at base >100/28 again. 2 days off, then down south for a 4 day stop over and the 28 days would now be well within limits: until the next month of consecutive Atlantics. How does EASA handle this?

[wiggy]

pre-EASA:

I phoned crewing and queried this. "It is legal to depart <100hrs." OH? I phoned BALPA. Their reply was it was a grey area and the CAA interpretation, when asked, was also unclear. They did say that BA did not operate so close,

Under the old rules I/we as a group were always under the impression that the UK rules were quite clear cut, you could depart if under 100 hours at the start of the sector with the expectation of going through 100 hours whilst airborne, not sure who you spoke to at BALPA but as a FWIW it certainly did happen in recent years in BA.......

EASA - I haven't got chapter and verse in front of me at the moment but when we went onto the EASA rules I and others understood it that you now can't depart if you expect to hit 100 hours in flight, I haven't followed recent arguments that closely but the last I heard it was suddenly being claimed by some in the office that it was a "grey area".....I'll dig my books out see it I can find the reference.

Edit to add: our OM words it "(b) The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;.

I'm very much open to correction but I can't see any caveats about it still being OK to go over 100 if in flight or away from base....This seems to be pretty much as cut and paste from EASA sources.....

[Uplinker]

@wiggy, thanks.
@RAT 5 Fair enough, I don't know self employment rules.

There's a Catch 22 here. You fly home on last sector and put in a fatigue report; thereby declaring you shouldn't have flown home on theist sector.

I have more than once set off on the home sector feeling OK, but before top of descent (after say 3-4 hours) have felt fatigued. I have put in fatigue reports for these events, and saying I mitigated my fatigue by telling the other pilot, drinking coffee, eating food etc. But it is important that the company knows and can see how much fatigue their rosters are causing.

It is part of EASA flight operations rules that a company must have a fatigue management and fatigue reporting system in place.

Another thought regarding driving home. If you feel too tired or fatigued, don't do it anyway, even if your company won't pay. Many years ago I used to drive 4 hours each way to visit a girlfriend at the weekends. On the way back on Sunday night or Monday morning I often felt fatigued, so would pull over and sleep for 30 mins. Better that than crash the car.

[RAT 5]

On the way back on Sunday night or Monday morning I often felt fatigued, so would pull over and sleep for 30 mins. Better that than crash the car.

Common sense, indeed, until Mr. Plod, on a quiet night and no brownie points to their name, stops and writes you up for 'attempting to camp in a lay-by contrary to rule No. XYZ.'

Edit to add: our OM words it "(b) The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;.

I assume that is from your current OM as per EASA, but now I read your post again, I'm not so sure. But the past is history, as they say, and can not be altered. In 90's and my earlier case, CAP371 stated clearly, and with no caveat that I could find, "max 100hrs accumulated in a consecutive 28 days." I could find no loop hole in our then OM, hence my query. I thought, as a simple 'spade's a bloody shovel' type thinker that landing on day 28 with 108hrs would be outside the rules. KISS is my motto. Evidently there are others who thought otherwise and held the big stick. After the crash I suspect the pax lawyers would have trashed it and the CAA with it: but as that never happened we'll never know.

One serious problem with strict rules and airlines controlled by greedy financiers, is that max productivity rules over humane values, every time. Rules are there as a challenge to rostering. Finding loopholes is the challenge to rostering as ordered from on high. I wonder if some major airlines still have the structure where rostering does not come under chief pilot or DFO but CFO? It's a game of numbers and not getting caught, just like the rich and their tax bill. If F/O's complain about dodgy rosters they are not 'company minded' when considered for command; if a lowly line captain does so suddenly his OPC grades are in jeopardy. A union is essential, and even that doesn't always work. And the 'self-employed' really are on their own. FOI's really do have 1 or even 2 blind eyes in some outfits.

[back to Boeing]

Re the 100/28 rule. Initially under easa totally verboten. You must not be sat in the seat after more than 99 hours 59 minutes. Now easa has had time to bed in flight ops departments are feeling the restriction and are attempting to make it grey again

[wiggy]

RAT 5

I assume that is from your current OM as per EASA, but now I read your post again, I'm not so sure.

Just to be clear for ease the text I used was a cut and paste from an EASA on-line document but before I posted I did cross check and it ties in, absolutely word for word, with the rule as written in our current OM.

I know when the EASA rules were being introduced this was seen at least in some places as a change from the previous 100/28 rule set and therefore a minor win by the unions/associations. As back to Boeing says it is regarded by some as definitely being more restrictive than the CAP 371 version of 100/28. ...

[RAT 5]

Now easa has had time to bed in flight ops departments are feeling the restriction and are attempting to make it grey again

Thanks wiggy. If B2B is correct it reaffirms my contention that old habits are alive & well. Above the door to rostering & planning it should read 'Loophole Laboratory'.

[u118075]

Likewise, gob smacked the Daily Mail article was correct.
Max 600hrs when I started in the early 70's. Now 900hrs.
Simples!

[800driver]

Re Ryanair's 4 hours a day. That's only flying, not report time turn around and post duty time. So a short four sector day will be at least 6 hours, with no breaks short intense sectors and stressful short turn arounds . Try this for 5 days in a row coupled with the noise no proprer breaks, (even to use the Toilet) soon takes its toll.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Can't comment for other UK AOC's but as I see it a lot of big AOC have Union Scheduling Agreements that sit inside or alongside EASA FTL. Biggest issues I've seen are;
Pilots no longer get lieu days when they sell days off - they then have to comply with the ERRRP now which in my view is fair game.
Back to back long haul is now a problem
Anyone taking the p1$$ when commuting is putting their career at risk.

My personal view is that most UK AOC's have put quiet a lot of effort into FRMS - not sure about level playing field with other European AOC's hence there is no fatigue at Ryanair.