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PoppaJo
29th Nov 2016, 08:01
What is going on in Canberra!


Canberrans could be able to fly direct to Doha in two years after the Middle Eastern airline announced the nation's capital as its fifth direct Australian destination.

The announcement came as a surprise to the ACT government and Canberra Business Chamber on Tuesday, despite Qatar Airways and Canberra Airport management expecting an announcement at some point.

ACT deputy chief minister Yvette Berry said the government heard "at the same time everyone else did this morning".

"The devil is always in the detail but certainly it's been something the chief minister has been working really hard on, getting international flights here in the ACT," she said.

"We've got international flights to Wellington now and Singapore and we didn't have to do much and now we've got some interest from another international flight from Qatar so we'll look with interest at what their proposal will be and we'll certainly take them up on any offers and conversations about how we can work together," she said.

Qatar Airways announces flights to Canberra with its list of new 2017-18 destinations (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/qatar-airlines-announces-flights-to-canberra-with-its-list-of-new-201718-destinations-20161128-gszilh.html)

Macrohard
29th Nov 2016, 09:20
Tell him he's dreaming!
CBR-DOH 6700nm
CBR airport 1900' amsl, 3200m
Lots of performance issues....
I sincerely doubt it's likely to happen

BuzzBox
29th Nov 2016, 10:48
"Direct" doesn't mean the same as "non-stop" in the airline world...

Preemo
29th Nov 2016, 10:52
I see Qatar has 37 A350-1000's on order. they have a range of 7,950nm in a 3 class configuration with 366 passengers and can operate from a 2,400m runway at MTOW.

What am I missing in terms of performance issues - just trying to understand the issue being a non-pilot but a Canberra based flier.

B772
29th Nov 2016, 11:30
CBR-DRW-DOH

360BakTrak
29th Nov 2016, 16:00
Their A350-900's are doing Adelaide now, surely it can cope with 3200m?

Enos
29th Nov 2016, 16:28
The Middle East is swamped with capacity at the moment with management looking to start new routes to anywhere.

Is there a requirement for A Canberra Doha direct service?
Would it be a daily service, much cargo?

Not being sarcastic but it's almost like watching history repeat its self prior to 9-11.

In Europe to a lesser degree airlines were starting up routes to anywhere and everywhere, that weren't profitable then after September cited lack of demand on terrorism and quietly shut them down with some airlines disappearing completely.

Vertisol
29th Nov 2016, 23:48
It will be interesting to see what the interest level is. We haven't heard what loads are like on the SG flights yet.


Once thing going for Canberra is the potential pax catchment area. I think I read when Ikea were setting p in town that they estimated there was about 800,000 people in and around Canberra that would travel to Canberra for them (anywhere from Albury, Wagga to Southern Highlands) rather than go to Sydney/ Melbourne.


If the price and frequency is right CBR is a much nicer proposition than SYD MEL.

Lookleft
30th Nov 2016, 05:10
What am I missing in terms of performance issues - just trying to understand the issue being a non-pilot but a Canberra based flier.

Preemo, the problem is Mt Majura at the end of rwy35. If an aircraft has an engine failure during the takeoff it is required to meet certain performance criteria to clear the terrain by a specified amount. Meeting that criteria at an elevation of 1800' on a hot Canberra day can restrict how much fuel and/or passengers an airline can take. Canberra Airport built an extension to the runway which allowed aircraft to take-off from a longer runway but trying to go Doha direct with any sort of decent payload will be an issue. Hope that helps.:ok:

Preemo
30th Nov 2016, 06:05
Preemo, the problem is Mt Majura at the end of rwy35. If an aircraft has an engine failure during the takeoff it is required to meet certain performance criteria to clear the terrain by a specified amount. Meeting that criteria at an elevation of 1800' on a hot Canberra day can restrict how much fuel and/or passengers an airline can take. Canberra Airport built an extension to the runway which allowed aircraft to take-off from a longer runway but trying to go Doha direct with any sort of decent payload will be an issue. Hope that helps.:ok:
Thanks Lookleft - that's a superb explanation.

neville_nobody
30th Nov 2016, 06:10
My money will be on a late night departure out of Canberra for a dawn arrival in the Middle East, which will ease the pain somewhat.

That is until all the NIMBYs who bought houses under the flightpath get a curfew put on.

Ozgrade3
30th Nov 2016, 09:20
Don't these big fancy planes have those little wiggly bits on the wings near the wingtips. I think some people call them ailerons. We are talking about a pimple of a mountain in world terms, but some people think it's a huge problem, it could well be according to our regs. Just don't tell the authorities who run Innsbruck, they would fall over themselves laughing at us. Yep Australia is a 3rd world country with 3rd rate thinking.

JamieMaree
30th Nov 2016, 09:31
Ozgrade3, you appear to be a clown. Yes aircraft on takeoff can make a turn after takeoff to avoid a potential conflict with terrain. However the performance degradation associated with the turn can be more of a penalty than going straight ahead, if indeed going ahead is an option. Some turns that come to mind are CNS15, old HKG, NOU 11. The terrain can mean that any extra runway length is a complete waste in some circumstances.
Go back to your wiggly things.

RAD_ALT_ALIVE
1st Dec 2016, 10:01
Do any of you really have ANY knowledge of the performance capabilities of the current generation widebody twins, i.e. B787, A350?

They have extraordinary performance compared to the A330/B777!

Try MEL-HNL in a B788 with near-full load off RWY 27 (about 2250m/7400ft) with nil wind.

CBR-DOH will be a doddle in all but the hottest conditions; hence its late evening arrival. As Neville said, it'll be a late evening departure in order to help with performance.

Sole-GPS capability will make the traditional engine failure escape procedures redundant (evidence the 'new' EFP out of CNS on B737s) - procedures that were the reason behind alot of payload restrictions.

If you want to do a real-world comparison of performance between current and previous generation twins, just FR24 the North Atlantic; you'll see all the B777s v. A350/B787 aircraft from the middle east at the halfway point of their journey (over Iceland) at (respectively) about FL320-340 v. FL380-400.

Tuck Mach
2nd Dec 2016, 06:50
As Enos said

The Middle East is swamped with capacity at the moment with management looking to start new routes to anywhere.

Looks like Singapore is struggling to build momentum...

'The International Airline Activity report by the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development showed, on average, each of the six flights from Wellington to Canberra in September held just 94 passengers.
The Boeing 777 has 266 seats, meaning there was an average passenger load factor of just 35 per cent.'

maggot
2nd Dec 2016, 07:21
Early days
Good luck to em but yeah not sure how thatll go

Roger Greendeck
2nd Dec 2016, 08:17
The cruise level in flight is not necessarily indicative of the single engine performance on departure. Even at light weight the 777-300ER cruises much lower than some more modern aircraft and even some older ones but it's still got excellent OEI climb at MTOW. Don't have first hand knowledge of the A350's performance but I'd bet a decent sum that's it's pretty good. And with RNP departures Mt Majura is not as big a deal as it was a few years back.

azure70
2nd Dec 2016, 09:56
Its obvious Mt Majura is an impediment to the growth of Canberra Airport and should be removed.
A mining company in The Pilbara region of Western Australia has an airport located at 2100ft ASL.
The mining company wanted to get rid of a charter operator utilising BAE146 aircraft in favour of a new operator using E-jets.
High terrain at the end of the strip was a problem for the E-jets, so the mining company sent in the blast crew and heavy machinery and removed the mountain.
Incidentally the mountain was full of high grade iron ore which was processed through the plant, so it was a win for everyone....except NJS.

Jabawocky
2nd Dec 2016, 11:01
What is going on in Canberra!

Better question......what is going on in Doha? :rolleyes:

Derfred
2nd Dec 2016, 12:38
High terrain at the end of the strip was a problem for the E-jets, so the mining company sent in the blast crew and heavy machinery and removed the mountain.

Haha, that's gold... Do you have a source for that?

Once they're finished in CBR they can ship the machinery to Queenstown and level all those mountains so we can send in A380's :D

Maggie Island
2nd Dec 2016, 12:49
Its obvious Mt Majura is an impediment to the growth of Canberra Airport and should be removed.
A mining company in The Pilbara region of Western Australia has an airport located at 2100ft ASL.
The mining company wanted to get rid of a charter operator utilising BAE146 aircraft in favour of a new operator using E-jets.
High terrain at the end of the strip was a problem for the E-jets, so the mining company sent in the blast crew and heavy machinery and removed the mountain.
Incidentally the mountain was full of high grade iron ore which was processed through the plant, so it was a win for everyone....except NJS.

Why stop at Mt Majura, most of the country would be quite thankful if someone "removed" the rest of the terrain around Lake Burley-Griffin...

360BakTrak
2nd Dec 2016, 14:04
Better question......what is going on in Doha?

....connections to many other worldwide destinations obviously. :ugh:

Chocks Away
2nd Dec 2016, 17:10
Spot on Rad_Alt_Alive!
Performance ain't a problem.
They (QR) go into a lot higher & shorter, around the world, on older less capable equipment (I do too).
Canberra?
Well their current approval for Australian Major cities is maxed-out but is "unlimited, to Regional Centres".
Happy Landings :ok:

Tuck Mach
2nd Dec 2016, 19:32
The problem with YSCB is they forgot to build a wall around it to keep the politicians in....

azure70
4th Dec 2016, 02:20
#20 Source?

Google red river in spanish

I worked for them in another life :-)

kiwi grey
9th Dec 2016, 22:21
'The International Airline Activity report by the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development showed, on average, each of the six flights from Wellington to Canberra in September held just 94 passengers.
The Boeing 777 has 266 seats, meaning there was an average passenger load factor of just 35 per cent.'

Maybe that's the number of passengers boarding in Canberra to go to Wellington, and doesn't include the number of passengers already on the aircraft flying from Singapore to Wellington.
I say this because a niece recently visited me in Wellington flying from Canberra, and she said the aircraft appeared nearly full.

Preemo
9th Dec 2016, 23:09
I've flown it a couple of times and it was half to two-thirds full each time.

The rumour I've heard is that the extra leg from Canberra to Wellington made the entire route feasible. What would the incremental costs of that leg be? and how many more passengers would the route pick up by having the Wellington extension?

mtrench
13th Dec 2016, 17:09
Hahaha. They fly fully loaded out of Kabul and Kathmandu.. Canberra has no performance issues compared to those places... 3500 compared to LSALT of 16000 in KBL and i think its 29000 roughly around KTM.

spleener
14th Dec 2016, 00:35
Let's put some actual numbers on this. Apologies, data for B777 - 300ER. No data for B787/A350.
YSCB
RWY 35
30C 0WIND Q1013 PACKS OFF
MAX RTOW 294.1T [MAX STRUCTURAL TO WEIGHT IS 351.5T] FLAP5
AT 15C 301.9T F5
AT 0 C 303.5T [ENG A/I ON] F5

RWY 17: SAME ASSUMPTIONS
30C 316.8 F20
15C 325.2 F20
0C 327.9T F15


Hope that helps.

Chocks Away
17th Dec 2016, 09:47
Thanks for the figures, it gives some idea.
Here are are few points to note though:
- Many Operators use flap 15 for TKOF on the B773.
- There are also APU-Pack; Improved Climb & Bump options for TKOF to better the performance.
- QR also operate a fleet of B777-200LR's which may be a consideration for such a run.
- The 787 / 350 wings are a lot more efficient than this old duck.

Happy Landings :ok:

-JLS-
17th Feb 2017, 04:04
https://www.ausbt.com.au/qatar-airways-eyes-canberra-sydney-doha-flights-from-early-2018

Seems like this one was downgraded to a wishy washy/possibly/maybe idea of getting to CBR via SYD with an A350, in another year at best....

IBE8720
19th Feb 2017, 11:56
Julie Bishop signed an Open Skies agreement with Qatar around September last year.
It's a matter of time, EK flies at least 70 flights per week, QR has 26.

wheels_down
19th Feb 2017, 22:04
What's the issue with pushing Canberra traffic via Qantas who is the oneworld partner? Even with subsidies from governments or whoever, 20 or 30 pax to Canberra and back is hardly worth it?

Is this more a sneaky ploy to operate an extra Sydney to Doha 'via Canberra'.

Chocks Away
19th Feb 2017, 22:32
Canberra is a "Regional Port", considered under pax numbers as per Adelaide.
By them servicing these Regional Centres they're hoping to leverage more access into/out of the Major Ports of Sydney, Melbourne and start Brisbane, as the A380 is already on Syd and starting Melb soon.

I've got my popcorn and comfortable chair :)
Happy Landings :ok: