BA reaches the bottom [Archive]

chrissw

4th Nov 2016, 13:18

Following the withdrawal of inclusive food and drink for short-haul flights on BA, now these:

Further Shorthaul Airbus Densification as BA Races to the Bottom. | The BA Source (http://www.thebasource.com/further-shorthaul-airbus-densification-as-ba-races-to-the-bottom/)

British Airways Announces Gatwick 3 Class B777-200ER Densification. | The BA Source (http://www.thebasource.com/british-airways-announces-gatwick-3-class-b777-200er-densification/)

ExXB

4th Nov 2016, 16:24

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

They've been at the bottom for some time now.

pax britanica

4th Nov 2016, 18:14

If anyone uses a word like 'densification' you can tell right away they are not delivering good news nor are they a normal human being.

BA have to do something to differentiate themselves from the pack , LHR is disadvatage to them in many ways because of delays but that aside perhaps we will soon see an extra few quid Heathrow Charge to be known internally as
EG££

lomapaseo

4th Nov 2016, 19:44

Interesting

When all I read on this board is negative comments about service and seats, I shy away completely from booking BA even if the booking is J or F class.

There is just too many other choices with other carriers to take a chance on today's BA service figuring that if it goes wrong I'm probably in deep do do flying BA

Hotel Tango

4th Nov 2016, 23:32

I'm the same. There are some good J class offers with BA from BRU/AMS via LHR to various LH destinations, but I sadly no longer have a desire to fly with them.

Metro man

5th Nov 2016, 07:58

Even less reason to choose BA over a low cost now. Soon SQ and Thai will be the only 9 across economy B777 operators. New Qatar Airways aircraft going for the sardine can seating, also CX.

Charging for food in a 180 seat A320 ? Might as well go Easyjet.

Peter47

5th Nov 2016, 09:32

Any idea what the seat pitch will be in C & Y? Presumably there will be less space allocated to galleys and the seatback pockets will be moved higher, but it will still be uncomfortable!

fa2fi

5th Nov 2016, 09:53

I flew American 777 a few weeks ago. It was noticeably narrower than the BA 747 we flew out on. It didn't bother me too much. It was a bit of a faff to try eat and the tables were odd. We still had complimentary wine and food. The IFE was good too.

My mother and sister were annoyed big time at it and after probably the fourth hour of constant whinging I reminded them that the ticket was the cheapest we could find across the Atlantic and between the four of us we had saved £200. Their response was something along the lines of 'ah well, I suppose it's not bad'. Herein lies the problem. To me and many a plane is a plane. I want to get where I'm going as cheap as I can and I suspect there are a LOT of people like me. 10Y isn't the best but I'd take it every time if the price was right. I certainly would not pay a premium for 9Y. I'd rather save the money and get a nice meal on arrival.

ZFT

5th Nov 2016, 09:58

...and there's the commercial reality. 10 abreast, no food or drink, no service but if cheap then the (narrow) seats get filled.

Eventually, there will be no choice. This will be the norm.

Andy_S

5th Nov 2016, 10:53

To me and many a plane is a plane.

Indeed. I think some people get a bit 'precious' about aircraft type. If you don't like the seating configuration then upgrade. many carriers now offer Premium Economy (although I would still try and avoid BA's WT+).

For what it's worth, Garuda operate 9-across economy seating in their 777's.

Pegpilot

5th Nov 2016, 12:02

Good grief. I flew back from Gothenburg with BA last month in economy, and I could only sit with my legs apart, the seat pitch was that bad - and I'm a fairly unexceptional 6 ft tall. And now they're going to squeeze in two more rows ? I shan't bother in future.

PAXboy

5th Nov 2016, 12:50

As well stated. They have no choice. In the last 25 years purchasers have changed to the NOT one size but to pick and choose. Sometimes known as salami slicing or RyanAir pricing where you choose individual components and only purchase them.

The reduction in toilets, cramped seats and not much space for the increasing burden of hand luggage? The family of fa2fi sums it up.

Unless hundreds / thousands of lives are lost - in a very public way - and that it can be CATEGORICALLY PROVED to have been to a systemic problem with the 'densification' - then this is how it is.

RAT 5

5th Nov 2016, 12:59

People will rediscover the train for certain suitable routes, even the ferry. There are also some good alternatives, depending on country. I'm off to the Caribbean on a local charter airline with a business-class. OK it's not a full national carrier type business class spec', but it has plenty of space for recline, not flat beds. It offers all the other titbits and is 50% the price of the average local national carrier's business class. Travelling on some LoCo's you can pre-book extra room seats and the charters offer various grades. I do find on my local national that a few extra € for a 'comfort seat' is well affordable and well worth it. Business class on short-haul is often the same seat, but with the centre seat blocked, + free meal & newspapers for >200% the economy price. Biggest con in the game.

Pegpilot

5th Nov 2016, 13:15

But the paradox is that people are getting bigger. I've been flying gliders for nearly a quarter of a century and it is notable how many more visitors we have to turn away because they are too heavy or too tall compared with the nineties. And RAT5, don't think for a minute that the trains are exempt from "densification" - just look at how many seats First Great Western now cram in to an HST second class carriage compared with the original spec, ironically adopting "airline style seating" rather than wholesale use of 2+2 face to face over a table, which was a lot more civilised. Sorry, I digress, but your other point about the LOCO's charging a bit more for extra legroom is well made - I paid a bit extra with Buzz from Luton to Gdansk a couple of years ago, and it was far superior to my BA Gothenburg flight...

pax britanica

5th Nov 2016, 13:24

While I dont deny that J class in Europe is abit of a con much of what youpay for isn't really on the plane

its the change the ticket at last minute, shorter check in deadline no queues to board use of thje lounge and pretty much an assured blind eye to carry on bag size.

if you are running around Europe every week all this becomes very important because its tiring and those frequent flyer points that mean you take the significant other to Bermuda occasionally helps keeps you from ending up single. Also seeing as you have often got up very early -missed lunch and travelled back to the airport at evening meal time even an airline hot meal is very welcome as youare not going to be at your front door or hotel room until 9pm which is bit late for eating. So yes it is a bit of a con, especially the on board difference but if its your way of life then it makes a big difference.

The amusing thing is that marketeers bang on and on and on about branding and positioning but when it comes to flying people only look at the price most of the time

fa2fi

5th Nov 2016, 15:59

I think one thing that's a must is reducing the recline on the seats. Mr fa2fi had the guy in front fully reclined and I think for him that was the biggest complaint. But we're already planning next years trip to connect with a cruise and American are coming up cheapest as are AF's 10Y 777s. We are up for it if I can get the leave.

Herein lies the problem. We both earn good wages, as does my sister and we all choose the flight based on cost and me and Mr fa2fi are willing to do it again if the price is right. It's not just people who can only afford the cheapest tickets who seek out the cheapest tickets. We are of the mindset of having a better time on arrival and on this occasion paid for a very nice hotel. We could afford to pay a lot more but sadly we aren't prepared to pay more for a 'better' service and I think it's people like us that are causing problems for the airlines. Not that I care. We just want to get where we are going as cheaply and as quickly as we can.

Interestingly we haven't even bothered looking at WOW or Norwegian but I think that's more of a convenience thing as they don't operate to our airport and we don't do self made & unprotected connections.

It won't be long before they introduce a basic fare. After all I believe Air NZ so long haul leisure routes with no free catering. BA could introduce a base fare such as AC Tango/Delta Basic to help take on Norwegian.

RAT 5

5th Nov 2016, 16:11

What gets me is the differential between business & economy of intercontinental flights. I know the business argument. My grump is probably based on jealousy in that I suspect the majority of business pax are not paying for the ticket, and it is likely the tax payer is paying 50% of it. It's the same with some outrageous business hotel prices: the guest is not paying the bill. This means for me the upgrade cost is huge. Premium economy does give a small step up, perhaps. I have friends who travel business on business a greta deal. They didn't pay for there ticket, but their airmiles & hotel points are huge. They can then travel business on holiday with freebies gained 'on duty'. I spent 35 years on duty for a spectrum of operators and have accumulated diddly squat in interline ID's, airmails, hotel points or pension.
I wonder, if business class tickets & hotels were not deductibles, would the prices be cheaper across the board?

GrahamO

5th Nov 2016, 16:49

Could someone explain what is so wrong with 10 across configuration, apart from the fact it isnt 9 ?

I've flown Emirates for years on 777's and never had a problem with the 10 across - is it really that different space wise ?

PAXboy

5th Nov 2016, 17:13

Your physical stature might be part of it, GrahamO. I'm average height and weight but still get seats reclined so that I am pinned down.

Andy_S

5th Nov 2016, 17:17

I've flown Emirates for years on 777's and never had a problem with the 10 across - is it really that different space wise ?

About 1" width. Not significant, anyhow.

fa2fi

5th Nov 2016, 17:25

It isn't much on paper and I thought 'what are all of those people on a.net whinging all of the time about?' until it came to eat. Then I was noticeable particularly when in a block of four. The aisle is narrow too but I'd fly on one again tomorrow without hesitation. T

Hotel Tango

5th Nov 2016, 21:23

Eventually, there will be no choice. This will be the norm

And this is what has worried me for years as comfort standards continually decline. At present I make use of competitive Business Class (or equivalent) fares for Long Haul. If these become unaffordable I will simply stop flying L/H. There is just no way I'm flying 10/11/12 hours plus in a cramped Y cabin. My holiday begins when I close my front door and ends when I open it again. Many people return from holidays feeling they need a holiday. How much of that is down to the discomfort and stress of Long Haul Y travel?

Harry Wayfarers

6th Nov 2016, 11:13

Many people return from holidays feeling they need a holiday. How much of that is down to the discomfort and stress of Long Haul Y travel?

I never experience such a feeling, I'm 'picky' who I fly with, my 'picks' include the likes of Swiss and Cathay Pacific and, most definitely, exclude the likes of BA.

seafire6b

6th Nov 2016, 11:28

I never experience such a feeling, I'm 'picky' who I fly with, my 'picks' include the likes of Swiss and Cathay Pacific and, most definitely, exclude the likes of BA.
However of course, much depends on your starting point and destination. For some of us, our "pickiness" of airlines is severely limited by practicality.

Peter47

6th Nov 2016, 13:54

Harry, I'd make the most of CX in the next year or so.

Hong Kong?s Cathay Pacific to introduce 10-abreast seating in its Boeing planes | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/2024306/tight-squeeze-hong-kongs-cathay-pacific-introduce-10-abreast)

ZFT

6th Nov 2016, 18:39

Now who will be the first with 11 abreast?

PAXboy

6th Nov 2016, 19:54

Just to lend weight to those who say we do nothing but criticise BA in this forum. This thread is titled 'BA reaches the bottom'.

Let me observe; 'Oh no it hasn't! Way to go yet.' But then, I'm a cynic who has been observing corporate culture for a mere 45 years - reckoning I was 15 when I first really understood what Big Biz does.

RJ100

7th Nov 2016, 14:26

I believe the changes affecting the 777 config is for those that operate from LGW. A few of the LHR 777 will get the 10 abreast seating but most will remain in the 3-3-3 config.

DaveReidUK

7th Nov 2016, 15:02

I believe the changes affecting the 777 config is for those that operate from LGW. A few of the LHR 777 will get the 10 abreast seating but most will remain in the 3-3-3 config.

Yes, we have already established that only 25 out of the 58-strong fleet are going to get the new configuration, so it follows that most won't.

11277m

7th Nov 2016, 16:09

Yes, we have already established that only 25 out of the 58-strong fleet are going to get the new configuration, so it follows that most won't.
You might find that it's such a 'success with passengers' that BA will want to extend the 'densification' to all their 777's.

Of course the Y fares won't drop, they just won't rise as much as they otherwise would.

RJ100

7th Nov 2016, 17:10

Yes, we have already established that only 25 out of the 58-strong fleet are going to get the new configuration, so it follows that most won't.

Well done you! You might have established that already but going through the thread before I posted I didn't see any reference to LGW fleet vs LHR fleet.

DaveReidUK

7th Nov 2016, 17:31

Well done you! You might have established that already but going through the thread before I posted I didn't see any reference to LGW fleet vs LHR fleet.

Apologies, I've just realised that the posts I'm referring to were in the main BA thread in the Airlines, Airports & Routes forum.

Reportedly it's the 8 or 9 (varies by season) Gatwick-based -200ER/GE aircraft plus the LHR-based -200ER/RR fleet (16 aircraft) that makes the total of 25 that BA announced.

All will no doubt be revealed in due course.

DrJones

8th Nov 2016, 08:02

Flew long haul on BA a few days ago for the first time in about 10 years. It was a 11 hr flight on the 747 Classic, sorry I mean the 400. The entertainment system / seat was no different from the plane I flew on 10 years ago. Unlike most modern Airlines now, the entertainment system tend to have a largish screen with an excellent choice of movies, music, games etc. Also brought my usb charger to charge my phone, pretty much most aircraft have these now, but not BA on the Classic. I have also found on Long Haul flights, paricularly the ones coming back from Asia or night flights BA hurry though the food service, then switch off the cabin lights and you never see them again until just before landing. Unlike the Asian and Middle Eastern carriers, and to some degree the American Carriers, BA are not the most attentive or the most hard working. Jump on the like of an Asian carrier, there for ever up and down the ailes with water, orange juice etc. Its a great shame our National Carrier has sunk to this low and rather then dig themself out of this low intend to dig themselves deeper!!!!

Hotel Tango

8th Nov 2016, 10:13

Its a great shame our National Carrier has sunk to this low and rather then dig themself out of this low intend to dig themselves deeper!!!!

Piss poor managers who just don't have a clue what they are doing, which in turn demotivates their front line staff. BA was once my first carrier of choice. Now they are one of the last.

AngioJet

8th Nov 2016, 10:35

I think the IFE differs between different 'examples' of the 744. Last time I braved BA, the IFE was the latest Panasonic incarnation which, although not as extensive as e.g. Emirates, did offer quite a good selection of TV, films and games. And thank goodness for that as it was the only slightly redeeming feature on that particular flight... For reference, the reg was G-CIVZ.

HeartyMeatballs

8th Nov 2016, 11:04

Id say it's anything but bad management. They've delivered consistent and robust profits and passenger numbers with record load factors. Airlines do not provide public services. They are profit making entities responsible for delivering return for investors.

They've adapted to changing markets and competition from the MEB3. People complain but they don't seem to have issues filling their flights and turning a profit.

No we don't have the national pride for BA quite like the Canadians or Australians do for their national carriers (despite being no better as a whole) but BA are still the airline of choice for many and for the others they will choose them if they're they cheapest. The amount of people who avoid BA just because they are BA is limited to a handful of people on here, airliners and flyer talk. Then you'll have the British haters who won't fly them because of their product but because of the stylised flag that they fly on their tail.

Hotel Tango

8th Nov 2016, 14:37

You might be right HM, but for the record I'm not a BA hater. They just no longer provide the Business Class product I desire for my money (and yes, it's my money), so they don't get my business, even when their C class fares are cheaper than my local carriers!

pax britanica

9th Nov 2016, 18:42

I dont mind the seat pitch as i am only 5-9 but I can see why people have problems if six foot plus and access isnt that easy.

However feelI have to put in a good word for some BA people after an experience yesterday where I had at no notice to come home early from a business trip to Paris. Arrived at Orly literally 2 minutes before check in closed and despite the gallic shrug and check in is almost closed M'sieur . The check in agent and ticket issuing agent moved ehaven and earth to rebook me when having completed the transaction their special boarding pass ticket printer failed and they literally went on a mission to get me on board - chasing up It help, borrowing a printer from another airline desk-phoning the gate and keeping the flight open for me. Were wonderful, really above and beyond, Orly handling company people but nonetheless they did BA proud.

My adventure wasnt over and after being bundled on board at the last second bag and coat were stuffed in the overhead. At LHR immigration shock horror no passport. I rushed back towards the gate and met the cabin crew on their way to another trip, took a chance and explained my plight and the in charge a youngish guy ran a long way back to gate and by the time I got there he was just emerging from the jetway passport in hand -it had fallen out in the overhead .

So BA management might be applying densification too rigorously but its nice that they still have some really decent staff-a bit of drift i know but its not all about the seat pitch and food (or lack of)

TightSlot

11th Nov 2016, 18:01

Had to smile quietly. Since retiring from flying I have been working as a Tour Manager for a company that specialises in Rail-based holidays. Sometimes we have to fly to wherever it is that we pick up the train. It ain't fun :)

S.o.S.

11th Nov 2016, 23:30

Welcome Home TightSlot! But, I mean to say, TRAINS???? :confused: If you mention them again, I may have to ban you from PPRuNe. :=

(for newbies to this forum, TightSlot was the esteemed moderator of this forum before he conned me into taking over.)

TightSlot

12th Nov 2016, 05:54

Yup TRAINS - occasionally, when I really stretch out, I can touch the seat back in front of me... but not easily.
I'll stop now... Although a ban would perhaps be the missing piece in the jigsaw of life? :)

RAT 5

12th Nov 2016, 08:34

Just, again, took the overnight ferry to UK, with car. Very relaxing, comfortable, good value. Depending on arrival port you arrive 07.30 or 09.00, refreshed, watered & fed with your own car and all you chattels. The alternative would be an 07.00 flight = getting out of bed at 04.00 then renting a car. You lose an evening at home, but the cost is not so much more than a flight +++. If you planned an evening hotel at one end then the ferry really wins; if you operate not too far from either port.
The same is true for the X-channel ferries. Book a late one turn up for the earlier one; no bother, no charge, no fuss and with 20min checkin possible if you can get through the passport check. Driving from Dover to London in your own motor, or trying to survive any of the airports and train. No brainer.