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BA reaches the bottom

Old 4th Nov 2016, 13:18
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BA reaches the bottom

Following the withdrawal of inclusive food and drink for short-haul flights on BA, now these:

Further Shorthaul Airbus Densification as BA Races to the Bottom. | The BA Source

British Airways Announces Gatwick 3 Class B777-200ER Densification. | The BA Source
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Old 4th Nov 2016, 16:24
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Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

They've been at the bottom for some time now.
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Old 4th Nov 2016, 18:14
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If anyone uses a word like 'densification' you can tell right away they are not delivering good news nor are they a normal human being.

BA have to do something to differentiate themselves from the pack , LHR is disadvatage to them in many ways because of delays but that aside perhaps we will soon see an extra few quid Heathrow Charge to be known internally as
EG££
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Old 4th Nov 2016, 19:44
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Interesting

When all I read on this board is negative comments about service and seats, I shy away completely from booking BA even if the booking is J or F class.

There is just too many other choices with other carriers to take a chance on today's BA service figuring that if it goes wrong I'm probably in deep do do flying BA
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Old 4th Nov 2016, 23:32
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I'm the same. There are some good J class offers with BA from BRU/AMS via LHR to various LH destinations, but I sadly no longer have a desire to fly with them.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 07:58
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Even less reason to choose BA over a low cost now. Soon SQ and Thai will be the only 9 across economy B777 operators. New Qatar Airways aircraft going for the sardine can seating, also CX.

Charging for food in a 180 seat A320 ? Might as well go Easyjet.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 09:32
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Any idea what the seat pitch will be in C & Y? Presumably there will be less space allocated to galleys and the seatback pockets will be moved higher, but it will still be uncomfortable!
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 09:53
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I flew American 777 a few weeks ago. It was noticeably narrower than the BA 747 we flew out on. It didn't bother me too much. It was a bit of a faff to try eat and the tables were odd. We still had complimentary wine and food. The IFE was good too.

My mother and sister were annoyed big time at it and after probably the fourth hour of constant whinging I reminded them that the ticket was the cheapest we could find across the Atlantic and between the four of us we had saved £200. Their response was something along the lines of 'ah well, I suppose it's not bad'. Herein lies the problem. To me and many a plane is a plane. I want to get where I'm going as cheap as I can and I suspect there are a LOT of people like me. 10Y isn't the best but I'd take it every time if the price was right. I certainly would not pay a premium for 9Y. I'd rather save the money and get a nice meal on arrival.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 09:58
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...and there's the commercial reality. 10 abreast, no food or drink, no service but if cheap then the (narrow) seats get filled.

Eventually, there will be no choice. This will be the norm.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 10:53
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Originally Posted by fa2fi View Post
To me and many a plane is a plane.
Indeed. I think some people get a bit 'precious' about aircraft type. If you don't like the seating configuration then upgrade. many carriers now offer Premium Economy (although I would still try and avoid BA's WT+).

For what it's worth, Garuda operate 9-across economy seating in their 777's.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 12:02
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Good grief. I flew back from Gothenburg with BA last month in economy, and I could only sit with my legs apart, the seat pitch was that bad - and I'm a fairly unexceptional 6 ft tall. And now they're going to squeeze in two more rows ? I shan't bother in future.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 12:50
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As well stated. They have no choice. In the last 25 years purchasers have changed to the NOT one size but to pick and choose. Sometimes known as salami slicing or RyanAir pricing where you choose individual components and only purchase them.

The reduction in toilets, cramped seats and not much space for the increasing burden of hand luggage? The family of fa2fi sums it up.

Unless hundreds / thousands of lives are lost - in a very public way - and that it can be CATEGORICALLY PROVED to have been to a systemic problem with the 'densification' - then this is how it is.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 12:59
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People will rediscover the train for certain suitable routes, even the ferry. There are also some good alternatives, depending on country. I'm off to the Caribbean on a local charter airline with a business-class. OK it's not a full national carrier type business class spec', but it has plenty of space for recline, not flat beds. It offers all the other titbits and is 50% the price of the average local national carrier's business class. Travelling on some LoCo's you can pre-book extra room seats and the charters offer various grades. I do find on my local national that a few extra € for a 'comfort seat' is well affordable and well worth it. Business class on short-haul is often the same seat, but with the centre seat blocked, + free meal & newspapers for >200% the economy price. Biggest con in the game.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 13:15
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But the paradox is that people are getting bigger. I've been flying gliders for nearly a quarter of a century and it is notable how many more visitors we have to turn away because they are too heavy or too tall compared with the nineties. And RAT5, don't think for a minute that the trains are exempt from "densification" - just look at how many seats First Great Western now cram in to an HST second class carriage compared with the original spec, ironically adopting "airline style seating" rather than wholesale use of 2+2 face to face over a table, which was a lot more civilised. Sorry, I digress, but your other point about the LOCO's charging a bit more for extra legroom is well made - I paid a bit extra with Buzz from Luton to Gdansk a couple of years ago, and it was far superior to my BA Gothenburg flight...
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 13:24
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While I dont deny that J class in Europe is abit of a con much of what youpay for isn't really on the plane

its the change the ticket at last minute, shorter check in deadline no queues to board use of thje lounge and pretty much an assured blind eye to carry on bag size.

if you are running around Europe every week all this becomes very important because its tiring and those frequent flyer points that mean you take the significant other to Bermuda occasionally helps keeps you from ending up single. Also seeing as you have often got up very early -missed lunch and travelled back to the airport at evening meal time even an airline hot meal is very welcome as youare not going to be at your front door or hotel room until 9pm which is bit late for eating. So yes it is a bit of a con, especially the on board difference but if its your way of life then it makes a big difference.

The amusing thing is that marketeers bang on and on and on about branding and positioning but when it comes to flying people only look at the price most of the time
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 15:59
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I think one thing that's a must is reducing the recline on the seats. Mr fa2fi had the guy in front fully reclined and I think for him that was the biggest complaint. But we're already planning next years trip to connect with a cruise and American are coming up cheapest as are AF's 10Y 777s. We are up for it if I can get the leave.

Herein lies the problem. We both earn good wages, as does my sister and we all choose the flight based on cost and me and Mr fa2fi are willing to do it again if the price is right. It's not just people who can only afford the cheapest tickets who seek out the cheapest tickets. We are of the mindset of having a better time on arrival and on this occasion paid for a very nice hotel. We could afford to pay a lot more but sadly we aren't prepared to pay more for a 'better' service and I think it's people like us that are causing problems for the airlines. Not that I care. We just want to get where we are going as cheaply and as quickly as we can.

Interestingly we haven't even bothered looking at WOW or Norwegian but I think that's more of a convenience thing as they don't operate to our airport and we don't do self made & unprotected connections.

It won't be long before they introduce a basic fare. After all I believe Air NZ so long haul leisure routes with no free catering. BA could introduce a base fare such as AC Tango/Delta Basic to help take on Norwegian.

Last edited by fa2fi; 5th Nov 2016 at 16:21.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 16:11
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What gets me is the differential between business & economy of intercontinental flights. I know the business argument. My grump is probably based on jealousy in that I suspect the majority of business pax are not paying for the ticket, and it is likely the tax payer is paying 50% of it. It's the same with some outrageous business hotel prices: the guest is not paying the bill. This means for me the upgrade cost is huge. Premium economy does give a small step up, perhaps. I have friends who travel business on business a greta deal. They didn't pay for there ticket, but their airmiles & hotel points are huge. They can then travel business on holiday with freebies gained 'on duty'. I spent 35 years on duty for a spectrum of operators and have accumulated diddly squat in interline ID's, airmails, hotel points or pension.
I wonder, if business class tickets & hotels were not deductibles, would the prices be cheaper across the board?
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 16:49
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Could someone explain what is so wrong with 10 across configuration, apart from the fact it isnt 9 ?

I've flown Emirates for years on 777's and never had a problem with the 10 across - is it really that different space wise ?
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 17:13
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Your physical stature might be part of it, GrahamO. I'm average height and weight but still get seats reclined so that I am pinned down.
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Old 5th Nov 2016, 17:17
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Originally Posted by GrahamO View Post
I've flown Emirates for years on 777's and never had a problem with the 10 across - is it really that different space wise ?
About 1" width. Not significant, anyhow.
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