Jet airways v low after takeoff at LHR

[sabbasolo]

Jet plane flies too low after take-off from Heathrow, pilots suspended | india-news | Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/jet-plane-flies-too-low-after-take-off-from-heathrow-pilots-suspended/story-3UpTd4Lyu3laUI1XrVXGRI.html)

Reports that it was just metres above the boundary wall after an intersection takeoff in a 777

[DaveReidUK]

Flight would have been 9W117, off 27L at 21:36 local on the day in question (30th August this year).

Curiously, although its track and altitude were displayed on Heathrow's WebTrak system following the event, all record of it now seems to have been removed, although its presence can still be inferred from the readings shown on WebTrak as it passes over the noise monitors.

Mode S/ADS-B data indicates that it was about 350' AAL as it crossed Spout Lane (Stanwell Moor).

[Musket90]

Maybe because of of the works presently underway southside from Victor to S1 holding point the aircraft used an intersection take-off point of SB3 or S4E which gives a much lesser take-off distance than the normal full length.

[DaveReidUK]

Avherald have picked up on the incident, reporting that the flight departed from S4E (TODA/TORA 2589m/8500ft compared to 3658m/12000ft for the full 27L).

[AerocatS2A]

So was this a case of incorrect performance data for the take-off or is it, as implied by the article, that they actually held the aircraft low after take-off (presumably because the FO's new girl friend was watching from the end of the runway)? :}

[tubby linton]

What was the taxi clearance and did they request an intersection departure? Would this not have been seen as slightly odd by atc if they did ask for an intersection? I remember being told about a B747 that had numerous problems dispatching to the far east and eventually only went as far as Amsterdam but with the full asian route fuel aboard. The lengthy take off roll was commented on by ATC.

[Hotel Tango]

:hmm: Standing by for another speculation frenzy!

[DaveReidUK]

So was this a case of incorrect performance data for the take-off or is it, as implied by the article, that they actually held the aircraft low after take-off

I can't see anywhere in the article where that is implied.

[AnotherRedWineThanks]

suspended the captain and co-pilot of the flight for maintaining an “unsafe altitude”

The word 'maintaining' could be taken to imply that there was an element of choice on the part of the crew.

[underfire]

Well, DEP criteria states 35 FEET above the end of the DEP runway.

Locals call police on low flying aircraft? That is how this was found out? Not that one wants to empower the locals complaining about aircraft at LHR...

ATC didnt notice anything?

Mode S/ADS-B data indicates that it was about 350' AAL as it crossed Spout Lane (Stanwell Moor).
DaveReidUK is offline Report Post

If that is the case, there are plenty of twins B787, B777,and other ac that cross that point at around 350/400'...just watch a 787 cross that point..

http://i64.tinypic.com/2d1juo9.jpg http://i66.tinypic.com/kal0zs.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

If that is the case, there are plenty of twins B787, B777,and other ac that cross that point at around 350/400'...just watch a 787 cross that point.

I'm not sure what you're actually trying to show with your graphic. We're not told the height at which the 777 passed over the point you show, only that it was reportedly an "unsafe altitude".

All we know so far is that by the time it flew over any habitation (the first is some 3000 ft beyond the end of the 27L TODA) it was at 350' AAL.

Clearly the DGCA don't consider that was a reasonable height to have achieved by that point, and the fact that Heathrow has chosen to suppress the flight track and vertical profile would suggest that the story isn't over yet.

[Mr Mac]

A few years ago I was in central India talking to a recently retired American Airlines pilot at the bar who had flown out from UK with AI on a 747. His comment was when he was a pilot they often used to line up behind AI 747 and watched them struggle off down the runway at LHR go "over the hump" as he described it, slightly disappear from view and the seemingly struggle skyward. He said it was always worth watching from outside, but vouched safe that it was not so much fun when on board !

[WHBM]

747-100s departing LHR nonstop for LAX/SFO were a classic for this on warm summer afternoons in the 1970s-80s. BA always refused to put 747s on these routes until the better-powered 747-200B came into their fleet, but Pan Am and TWA, both of whom fully stocked up with the first production models, were stuck with what they had got.

Among other tower comments on a 10R departure were TWA "departing via the Piccadilly Line" and Pan Am "being a Hedge Clipper".

[pax britanica]

I grew up in that part of the world and crossing the Stanwell New Road at 350 feet would be standard to good for a 747-100 in the summer and a Trident full and on a hot day wasn't going upwards very fast either.

it does however seem odd that no one from the airport side of things seem to notice it taking off from a point that is quite long way down the runway. As for the locals complaining well one thing about living that close to an airport you sure as anything pick up on any unusual noise be it louder or different to what you hear all day every day and Stanwell Moor residents would certainly detect that as quick as a flash.

[DaveReidUK]

It will be interesting to see if the recommendation made by the AAIB following the similar Air Lanka A340 incident at LHR in 2012:

"It is recommended that the International Civil Aviation Organization introduce a standard or recommended practice for fixed wing aeroplanes to record the flight management system takeoff performance data entries on the flight data recorder during the takeoff phase. The data should be retained in the operator’s flight data analysis programme."

turns out to be relevant to this investigation.

AFAIK, to date ICAO has not agreed to implement any such measure.

[Midland 331]

>Among other tower comments on a 10R departure were TWA "departing via the Piccadilly Line" and Pan Am "being a Hedge Clipper".

They weren't faring much better 130 miles further up Amber One, either.

Growing up under the airway near Castle Don., it was often possible to make out the over-large "Pan Am" markings on a lumbering -100 series, the intake "drone" being clearly audible, too.

I never did find out what kind of height they were making at this point, but the perspective was/is similar to that of an EK 777 departing Newcastle and passing over our ranch at FL180 or so. After around 30 miles track!

[Discorde]

Makes you wonder how these examples would have performed after engine failure at V1.

a Trident full and on a hot day wasn't going upwards very fast either

Heard on Tower frequency at LHR as a Trident began its take-off run: 'You're about to witness De Havilland's attempt at the world land speed record.'

[dixi188]

I remember the Seaboard World DC-8-63s that seemed to require the curvature of the earth to get airborne. Heard one request 28R as 28L was not long enough. 12800ft vs. 12000ft.

[bar none]

If you wanted to see departing aircraft regularly scraping the threshold on take off you should have watched the PIA 747`s departing Manchester`s then 06 on a warm day

[Phantom Driver]

or the old GF 340-3 (with CF hairdriers) heading for distant parts on a hot summer Gulf night...

[silverstrata]

Makes you wonder how these examples would have performed after engine failure at V1.

Heard on Tower frequency at LHR as a Trident began its take-off run: 'You're about to witness De Havilland's attempt at the world land speed record.'

That is why the Trident was called the 'Gripper', was it not.

And talking of classic jests from ATC, this clip has many classics in it, like:

"there goes the vodka burner"
"you're going to have to go faster than that captain"
"I hope I have enough film left to film the crash"

Ill-76 at Canbera. If you have not seen it before - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7q3j69-SHM

The link is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7q3j69-SHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7q3j69-SHM

[Doors to Automatic]

Birmingham was always good for hedge-clipper take-offs before the runway extension. The Wardair 747 on a humid Summer's day in the 80s was always entertaining as was a 737-200 heading to the Canaries.

[Airbubba]

I remember reading license plates on cars on Le Jeune Road while taking off on 27R in Miami on a summer day with Caribbean hand luggage onboard.

Some of the 727's had the small -7A engines and 'hand luggage' wasn't reflected on the weight and balance. For competitive reasons our ground staff wouldn't police the carryons much. Folks would bring small refrigerators, TV sets, tools and other stuff to take home to the islands. They knew that if it didn't fit in the overhead or under the seat it would be tagged at the gate and put in the hold. And not counted as excess baggage for the pax or the paperwork.

An even shallower climb gradient was displayed by the cargo DC-4's and DC-6's headed southward. They would take a turn to miss buildings on the beach and gradually struggle to an initial altitude over the water.

The newer jet twins have a lot more performance margin but seemingly hug the runway nostalgically when derated takeoffs are done. I've sure had my doubts looking at the runway remaining at V1. :eek:

[pax britanica]

PIA 747-100s had a bit of history at LHR as I recall, one losing an engine depating to the east and really struggling over Heston Hounslow Acton area -Iseem to recall there was beacon at Kilburn in those days that easterly depatures to N and East passed over .

Going the other way , and I may be mistaken about PIA here, buit a 747 off the 28/27s lost an engine on take off and seriously struggled to get over Surrey Hill to the NE of Camberley- topped with a 300+ foot high BT tower too.

others may have clearer recollection of these events but back in the day 'low flying' aircraft were not uncommon, and thats without aged piston props that really did need the curvature of the earth to climb and a clearway of about 20 miles -well sort of

[RAT 5]

that really did need the curvature of the earth to climb and a clearway of about 20 miles

Performance was always better with a westerly wind as the 'curvature' came towards you quicker than with an easterly direction takeoff. ;)

Ah them's were the days. No perf A. Yank it off the ground and flattened it out to get above VMCA ASAP. Then breath a sigh of relief, again.

[frieghtdog2000]

I recall years ago an orange coloured 747 Classic going stateside from 26 at LGW, losing an engine, not following the emergency turn and having a interesting encounter with Russ Hill.

[Doors to Automatic]

I recall years ago an orange coloured 747 Classic going stateside from 26 at LGW, losing an engine, not following the emergency turn and having a interesting encounter with Russ Hill.

A Continental 747 around February 1988 if I remember correctly. There is a video of it here - https://youtu.be/zd1OTLxRIT4

[Hotel Tango]

:) Brings back some great memories Airbubba DC-4s, Dc-6s and even the odd Connie still in the mid 70s and early eighties. By gum, them were the days lad :{

[DaveReidUK]

I recall years ago an orange coloured 747 Classic going stateside from 26 at LGW, losing an engine, not following the emergency turn and having a interesting encounter with Russ Hill.

The AAIB investigation report on the incident made no suggestion that the track followed by the aircraft was anything other than exemplary.

It certainly didn't advocate an "emergency turn" at low altitude with one engine out at MTOW ...

[ex-EGLL]

PIA 747-100s had a bit of history at LHR as I recall, one losing an engine depating to the east and really struggling over Heston Hounslow Acton area -Iseem to recall there was beacon at Kilburn in those days that easterly depatures to N and East passed over .


I blame the ground controller for that one! I was working in the tower that day, and the PIA was insistent upon using 10L for departure due the extra length vs the usual easterly departure runway of 10R. As the PIA got somewhere adjacent to block 16 with all wheels firmly glued to the runway the ground controller said words to the effect of "interesting if he got an engine failure now" immediately followed a lots of orange flames and burning grass! He got airbourne and "climbed" (I use the term loosely) straight ahead for many miles before getting enough speed to turn. Luckily the fire was suppressed or there would have been quite a mess over Cranford / Hounslow.

[RAT 5]

An even shallower climb gradient was displayed by the cargo DC-4's and DC-6's headed southward out of MIA. They would take a turn to miss buildings on the beach and gradually struggle to an initial altitude over the water.

Was there not the case some years ago of such a 'prop cargo plane' losing thrust on 1 engine after takeoff and not being able to climb, so they dumped it in the sea just off the beach. I read they were in the dinghy and on the sand before the services arrived to see the fin sticking out of the water and the a/c resting on the bottom.
Long before Sully.

[JW411]

Freight Dog 2000:

"not following the emergency turn"

I don't think you realise that in those days the FAA did not allow an emergency turn in the first 1500 feet of the Net Flight Path (I don't know if that has changed).

The CAA allowed such a procedure provided that the bank angle did not exceed 15 degrees.

So, as a DC-10 captain with Fred I could lose an engine on take off from 26 at Gatwick, turn gently 10 degrees to the left or so, avoid Russ Hill and clean up on the new heading. This enabled all the UK operators coming out of Gatwick to take off at a much higher weight.

And so it was that I discovered when later flying an ex-Laker DC-10, now on the N-register, that my take off weight from 26 at Gatwick was much reduced because the emergency turn was not allowed and I had (in theory at least) to grit my teeth and head for Russ Hill.

Whether I would have done just that you shall never know.

[albatross]

JW 411
I think the "common sense shall prevail" rule would come into play.