View Full Version : Cessna L-19 Bird Dog: Vietnam
ohitsro
5th Oct 2016, 19:43
Good Day all!
I've had this picture on my computer for years but I've never been able to find any sort of back story to it. It looks like a Cessna L-19 Bird Dog, armed to the teeth! I'm judging by the weapons held in the picture that its around the vietnam era, 1970's or so but I could be wrong. Does anyone have any other info on this kind of operation/aircraft? :O :)
Edit: I can't seem to get the image link working so here is the URL:
http://imgur.com/ZcLKp9z
Thanks!
Ro
Impressive, but, looking at the weaponry the guys are packing, my guess is a film-set.
Image-searching with google suggests they were part of something similar to the CIA "Air America" operation - a covert and deniable FAC capability operating out of Laos. Some websites give them a unit nickname "The Ravens".
PDR
No picture showing here. :confused:
rjtjrt
6th Oct 2016, 02:47
No picture in first post visible.
DaveReidUK
6th Oct 2016, 06:25
http://www.specialoperations.net/T-28/jmraven.jpg
rjtjrt
6th Oct 2016, 06:50
Can see it now in DaveReid's post.
Thanks
I think the large machine gun seen on the top of the engine cowl is simply placed there for the photo - I doubt it's actually mounted there for airborne use because it would need rather solid mounting and some sort of synchroniser gear.
PDR
bgbazz
6th Oct 2016, 08:05
The photo almost certainly depicts the guys known as 'Ravens'...the gun is not mounted on the engine cowl, but on the wing. Use the helmet for reference and it will become clearer.
Pic was probably taken on site in Laos and your guess at the date is probably fairly accurate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76hLt3-hHo
the gun is not mounted on the engine cowl, but on the wing. Use the helmet for reference and it will become clearer.
Not convinced, I'm afraid! If it's wing-mounted why is it so far forward (it would be very floppy in that position and wouldn't hold straight), and what are the bipod legs doing? If it was wing-mounted to would surely be on the existing hardpoint like the rocket pod (built into the 0-1 for target markers), and that would put it much further back and a long way out on the port wing. In fact unless the perspective is screwed if it really WAS that far away it would have to be something over 50mm calibre, and I doubt the O-1 could actually carry that kind of recoil stresses on a wing-mount.
I had originally assumed it was a 0.50-calibre of some sort, but I think it's a bigger crew-served gun - I think the chap on the left is actually wearing the belt of its ammunition, and they look more like 20mm shells than 0.50-cal.
So I'm sticking to my original theory - I recon it's a crew-served infantry weapon of some kind which has been placed on the engine cowl to pose it for the picture.
YMMV,
PDR
Edit - in fact now I've viewed that video (interesting link - thanks!) I think the gun is actually one of these:
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/sir_pdr/gun.png
DaveReidUK
6th Oct 2016, 08:56
The photo almost certainly depicts the guys known as 'Ravens'...the gun is not mounted on the engine cowl, but on the wing. Use the helmet for reference and it will become clearer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76hLt3-hHo
I very much doubt that.
The YouTube video shows (at 7:58) a rocket pod on the the port wing of what is probably (judging from the nose decal) the same or a similar Bird Dog.
The machine-gun in the photo features two support legs whose only function, if fitted on the wing, would be to bang around in the slipstream. Not to mention the difficulty of arranging to activate the trigger mechanism of a weapon borrowed from the infantry and the problem of devising a strong enough pick-up on the engine cowling.
I have little doubt that it's posed purely for the photo.
Democritus
6th Oct 2016, 09:17
Similar ideas, different era, different type, but I thought it might be of interest. At the end of the internal conflict there I took this photo of a Cessna 337 Skymaster in January 1980 at Century, a forward airfield in the northern part of what was then called Rhodesia.
bgbazz
6th Oct 2016, 09:46
Not worth arguing about the gun, or where it's mounted, but I saw and used quite a few 'unusual' set ups during that time.
I think you'll find that the guy on the left is wearing a bandolier of M79 ammo and he appears to be holding the weapon as well. These could be used as a back up if the pilot ran out of WP rockets, or had a malfunction.
Jhieminga
6th Oct 2016, 09:48
Christopher Robbins did a pretty good book on The Ravens, see here: http://amzn.to/2dgOdZG
It's been a while since I read it but it is a pretty good mix of action and personal stories. He also wrote about Air America (http://amzn.to/2dU7aGj) and I think that this book sparked the later movie with Mel Gibson and Robert Downey Jr. although that one went a bit overboard on some aspects of course. Both books are available second hand for pretty low prices, they might be worth a look.
Edit: There is also a website dedicated to the Ravens, see here: http://www.ravens.org/ They also sell copies of Robbins' book.
I very much doubt that.
The YouTube video shows (at 7:58) a rocket pod on the the port wing of what is probably (judging from the nose decal) the same or a similar Bird Dog.
The O-1 and O-2s had standard wing racks for target marker rockets which were used in their primary FAC role. You'll see examples of these in use in many places, including the film "BAT21". It would be relatively straightforward to produce a mod kit to mount the small rocket pod seen in the OP's photograph as the hardpoint and armament wiring will all be there for the target markers, and rocket pods have no recoil. They may or may not have needed heat-resistant material on the underside or the wing and flap to protect from the rocket exhaust, and if it was a proper DA mod (which I doubt this was, given that it's a CIA op) I would also want to see an interlock which inhibited the firing when the flaps were in any position other than "up".
The machine-gun in the photo features two support legs whose only function, if fitted on the wing, would be to bang around in the slipstream. Not to mention the difficulty of arranging to activate the trigger mechanism of a weapon borrowed from the infantry and the problem of devising a strong enough pick-up on the engine cowling.
Or indeed how the ammunition belts would be fed (in either wing or cowling installation).
I have little doubt that it's posed purely for the photo.
Mee two.
PDR
M79 is a 40mm grenade isn't it? The rounds in that belt aren't anywhere near that size!
PDR
onetrack
6th Oct 2016, 11:09
These two website links below, that contain a lot of Bird Dog info and pics (along with the Ravens), might serve to enlighten a number of the above posters.
The USAF Ravens and the Bird Dogs (http://www.talkingproud.us/Military/Birddog/BirddogRavens/BirddogRavens.html)
Bird Dog photo gallery (http://www.talkingproud.us/Military/Birddog/BirddogPhoto/BirddogPhotoGallery.html)
The M60 machine gun was apparently mounted under the LH wing for night missions.
The M60 front bipod support legs can be easily and quickly folded in or out, and shortened as well.
M60 intimate details (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-68/c02.htm)
I must say I'm pretty impressed with the size of the rocket pods fitted, and I wouldn't like to hazard a guess at what it did to IAS, when any number of rockets were fired!
EDIT: I don't think the round in the bandolier are M79 grenade rounds, as they appear to be too long. The M79 grenade was actually quite stubby, and didn't have a lot of range.
ericferret
6th Oct 2016, 11:56
The gun is between two flying helmets, so sitting on the cowling.
Good Vibs
6th Oct 2016, 12:19
Whats the weight of a 2.75 inch FFAR x the rocket pod x rockets?
Too much for the wings I suspect.
The L-19/0-1 did carry rocket pods but the smaller ones for most missions.
The mg on the cowl and helmet of course for show.
Looks like they took the photo just for fun and added all they could.
Real Rambos!
The M60 machine gun was apparently mounted under the LH wing for night missions.
The M60 front bipod support legs can be easily and quickly folded in or out, and shortened as well.
But the wing-mounted weapon would almost certainly have been something like the M60C, which had hydraulic cocking and solenoid trigger together with a box-fed ammunition belt. They were certainly easily available because they were standard and role-fitments on many of the aircraft that were in theatre at the time. The aircraft-mounting versions never had stocks, handgrips or bipods because, well why would they...
The weapon in the picture is clearly the standard infantry weapon. If you mounted this on the wing you'd have toi find a way to cock it, fire it and feed it with ammunition - none of these would have simple solutions. As Eric says - this is an infantry weapon placed between two helmets on the cowl for a photo.
I must say I'm pretty impressed with the size of the rocket pods fitted, and I wouldn't like to hazard a guess at what it did to IAS, when any number of rockets were fired!
Erm...probably nothing much - that's rather the point of rockets. They are mounted in what is essentially an open tube, and when the rocket fires they just pull themselves out of it. Almost nothing impinges on the host aeroplane at all.
PDR
Hi
Try reading a book called A Lonely Kind of War. It is all about FACs in Vietnam and if you can still get it I think it may help you ?? ;);)
All the Best
spit
DaveReidUK
6th Oct 2016, 17:03
A populated 19-tube FFAR launcher would weigh getting on for 500 lbs, so I'm tending to the view that they are posed, too, just for the photo.
seafury45
6th Oct 2016, 17:35
There appears to be a sign taped to the cowl under the prop. I think they were posing for photos, not setting up for any ops.
DaveReidUK
6th Oct 2016, 18:09
There appears to be a sign taped to the cowl under the prop. I think they were posing for photos, not setting up for any ops.
The last word (in red) is "Communism".
I think it's safe to assume that the previous (undecipherable) words probably aren't "Hurrah for". :O
Rosevidney1
6th Oct 2016, 22:02
Without doubt the photo portrays Ravens before an otherwise standard O-1.
DaveReidUK
6th Oct 2016, 22:37
Without doubt the photo portrays Ravens before an otherwise standard O-1.
Yes, I think we're all agreed that, aside from the kit they hung on it to make a good photo, it's an otherwise standard O-1. :O
washoutt
7th Oct 2016, 07:54
A heavy machine gun mounted on the nose would require reinforcements in the airframe and would put the centre of gravity out of limits. I'll go for a posing gun, not a smoking one.
Stanwell
7th Oct 2016, 08:13
Thank you, washoutt - we can all sleep tonight.
I'm more interested in what the dude most prominent in the pic is about to do.
Give a practical demonstration of chemical warfare techniques, perhaps?
.
A heavy machine gun mounted on the nose would require reinforcements in the airframe and would put the centre of gravity out of limits.
...and either some form of interrupter/synchroniser system or a suicidal pilot...
PDR
I'm more interested in what the dude most prominent in the pic is about to do.
Give a practical demonstration of chemical warfare techniques, perhaps?
If you look under the fuselage directly beneath the pilot's seat all become clear - the photo was taken during a peer-to-peer training session on techniques for the then-new chemtrail missions.
Obviously this was before the development of today's synthetic trailing fluids.
PDR
onetrack
7th Oct 2016, 12:23
All the Bird Dogs I ever saw in SVN, I always thought were merely lightly armed, because they were specifically for observation and FAC.
This bloke (my photo below) used to patrol Route 2, through Phuoc Tuy Province, every morning on sunrise, trying to surprise VC and NVA mining the road.
Here he is, as I caught him one morning, right at our NDB (later FSB), which was set up right on a bend in Route 2, very close to the Long Khanh border.
There was a bend in Route 2 right at our NDP, and I reckoned his wingtip was only few metres from the road, as he banked for the bend, and whizzed past at - I don't know, maybe 60 or 70 kts?
It was a surprise technique doomed to failure - as the VC and NVA soon woke up, and they waited until 1600HRS one afternoon, to sprint out of the rubber plantation, and bury a 10lb satchel charge in the fresh roadbase - which promptly nailed one of our dump trucks that was dumping roadbase for widening.
The truck driver hit the satchel charge with the passenger side front wheel, and the blast destroyed the truck. The driver survived.
It must have been my lucky week, I rode in the passenger seat of that truck for 3 weeks, and I'd only stopped riding in it, a few days before it was mined. :eek:
Looking closely at my pic of the Bird Dog, I think I can see an M60 mounted under the port wing. I never saw or heard it used.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P05242.014
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P05242.015
http://oi67.tinypic.com/21bu5fo.jpg
Jhieminga
7th Oct 2016, 12:56
onetrack, I reckon that the hardware mounted beneath the port wing is just a rail or perhaps one or more marking rockets. Nice photo though, thanks for posting!:ok:
Only ever saw the aircraft carrying rockets in Vietnam, certainly no guns, and not the big 19 shot pod in the photo above. Those pods were typically carried by helo gunships, though I see in the youtube video above there is a very brief glimpse of a bird with a 19 shot pod on the left wing.
Bird Dog Photo Gallery | Talking Proud (http://www.talkingproud.us/Military/Birddog/BirddogPhoto/BirddogPhotoGallery.html)
DaveReidUK
7th Oct 2016, 14:56
onetrack, I reckon that the hardware mounted beneath the port wing is just a rail or perhaps one or more marking rockets.
http://planesoffame.org/uploads/images/Collection_Images/L-19-Bird%20dog-best-w-brdr.jpg
Could look like a machine-gun at a distance.
The two shot rocket pod on each wing, as in your photo Dave, was the standard fit in my neck of the woods, and appears to be the fit in onetrack's pic.
evansb
8th Oct 2016, 04:41
onetrack FYI the aircraft in the photo is a Cessna 180, not an L-19.
DaveReidUK
8th Oct 2016, 06:34
onetrack FYI the aircraft in the photo is a Cessna 180, not an L-19.
If we're going to be picky, it's almost certainly a U-17A (or B), which was the military variant of the Cessna 185 Skywagon.
AFAIK the Ravens didn't fly the U-17C, which was the variant based on the Cessna 180.
edsbar
8th Oct 2016, 11:48
I would not be too certain, not an L-19 / 0-1 as it has a square tail. it looks very much like an Australian Army Cessna 180D. Also could be a US Marines OE-2.
Given the location it would be a Cessna 180 of the Australian Army 161 Recce Flight. Good eyes evansb. You can see the Aussie orange wing tip bands in the pic, as in onetrack's pic.
http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Cessna-A98-063/161RFA_2A98_063.jpg
DaveReidUK
8th Oct 2016, 13:48
Not that we know it's not a Raven, I'll buy that too.
In fact if I'm not imagining it, you can also (just) detect the fin flash in Onetrack's photo.
evansb
8th Oct 2016, 20:06
More arcane information: A USMC Cessna OE-2, a mishmash of parts but a good performer with a 265-hp O-470-2 engine. Only 27 were built. Note the hard point and the pilot's gun sight.
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/CESSNA%20OE2.jpg
onetrack
9th Oct 2016, 01:42
Megan, thanks for the positive and correct ID of the Cessna. I had to shrink the original pic for posting purposes above - however, I pulled out the original, and blew it up as much as I dared (133%), and then cropped the photo to produce this zoomed-in view of the Cessna (below).
Unfortunately, the original photo wasn't particularly clear, due to the aircrafts speed, and the need to catch him in the lens quickly - and then 30 years of poor 35mm slide storage did nothing to help the photo quality, before it was scanned in 2000.
http://oi67.tinypic.com/n2oqap.jpg