Cessna L-19 Bird Dog: Vietnam

[ohitsro]

Good Day all!
I've had this picture on my computer for years but I've never been able to find any sort of back story to it. It looks like a Cessna L-19 Bird Dog, armed to the teeth! I'm judging by the weapons held in the picture that its around the vietnam era, 1970's or so but I could be wrong. Does anyone have any other info on this kind of operation/aircraft?

Edit: I can't seem to get the image link working so here is the URL:
http://imgur.com/ZcLKp9z

Thanks!
Ro

[Herod]

Impressive, but, looking at the weaponry the guys are packing, my guess is a film-set.

[PDR1]

Image-searching with google suggests they were part of something similar to the CIA "Air America" operation - a covert and deniable FAC capability operating out of Laos. Some websites give them a unit nickname "The Ravens".

PDR

[megan]

No picture showing here.

[rjtjrt]

No picture in first post visible.

[DaveReidUK]

[rjtjrt]

Can see it now in DaveReid's post.
Thanks

[PDR1]

I think the large machine gun seen on the top of the engine cowl is simply placed there for the photo - I doubt it's actually mounted there for airborne use because it would need rather solid mounting and some sort of synchroniser gear.

PDR

[bgbazz]

subject

The photo almost certainly depicts the guys known as 'Ravens'...the gun is not mounted on the engine cowl, but on the wing. Use the helmet for reference and it will become clearer.

Pic was probably taken on site in Laos and your guess at the date is probably fairly accurate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76hLt3-hHo

[PDR1]

Originally Posted by bgbazz

the gun is not mounted on the engine cowl, but on the wing. Use the helmet for reference and it will become clearer.

Not convinced, I'm afraid! If it's wing-mounted why is it so far forward (it would be very floppy in that position and wouldn't hold straight), and what are the bipod legs doing? If it was wing-mounted to would surely be on the existing hardpoint like the rocket pod (built into the 0-1 for target markers), and that would put it much further back and a long way out on the port wing. In fact unless the perspective is screwed if it really WAS that far away it would have to be something over 50mm calibre, and I doubt the O-1 could actually carry that kind of recoil stresses on a wing-mount.

I had originally assumed it was a 0.50-calibre of some sort, but I think it's a bigger crew-served gun - I think the chap on the left is actually wearing the belt of its ammunition, and they look more like 20mm shells than 0.50-cal.

So I'm sticking to my original theory - I recon it's a crew-served infantry weapon of some kind which has been placed on the engine cowl to pose it for the picture.

YMMV,

PDR

Edit - in fact now I've viewed that video (interesting link - thanks!) I think the gun is actually one of these:

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by bgbazz

The photo almost certainly depicts the guys known as 'Ravens'...the gun is not mounted on the engine cowl, but on the wing. Use the helmet for reference and it will become clearer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76hLt3-hHo

I very much doubt that.

The YouTube video shows (at 7:58) a rocket pod on the the port wing of what is probably (judging from the nose decal) the same or a similar Bird Dog.

The machine-gun in the photo features two support legs whose only function, if fitted on the wing, would be to bang around in the slipstream. Not to mention the difficulty of arranging to activate the trigger mechanism of a weapon borrowed from the infantry and the problem of devising a strong enough pick-up on the engine cowling.

I have little doubt that it's posed purely for the photo.

[Democritus]

Similar ideas, different era, different type, but I thought it might be of interest. At the end of the internal conflict there I took this photo of a Cessna 337 Skymaster in January 1980 at Century, a forward airfield in the northern part of what was then called Rhodesia.

[bgbazz]

subject

Not worth arguing about the gun, or where it's mounted, but I saw and used quite a few 'unusual' set ups during that time.

I think you'll find that the guy on the left is wearing a bandolier of M79 ammo and he appears to be holding the weapon as well. These could be used as a back up if the pilot ran out of WP rockets, or had a malfunction.

[Jhieminga]

Christopher Robbins did a pretty good book on The Ravens, see here: http://amzn.to/2dgOdZG
It's been a while since I read it but it is a pretty good mix of action and personal stories. He also wrote about Air America (http://amzn.to/2dU7aGj) and I think that this book sparked the later movie with Mel Gibson and Robert Downey Jr. although that one went a bit overboard on some aspects of course. Both books are available second hand for pretty low prices, they might be worth a look.

Edit: There is also a website dedicated to the Ravens, see here: http://www.ravens.org/ They also sell copies of Robbins' book.

[PDR1]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

I very much doubt that.
The YouTube video shows (at 7:58) a rocket pod on the the port wing of what is probably (judging from the nose decal) the same or a similar Bird Dog.

The O-1 and O-2s had standard wing racks for target marker rockets which were used in their primary FAC role. You'll see examples of these in use in many places, including the film "BAT21". It would be relatively straightforward to produce a mod kit to mount the small rocket pod seen in the OP's photograph as the hardpoint and armament wiring will all be there for the target markers, and rocket pods have no recoil. They may or may not have needed heat-resistant material on the underside or the wing and flap to protect from the rocket exhaust, and if it was a proper DA mod (which I doubt this was, given that it's a CIA op) I would also want to see an interlock which inhibited the firing when the flaps were in any position other than "up".

The machine-gun in the photo features two support legs whose only function, if fitted on the wing, would be to bang around in the slipstream. Not to mention the difficulty of arranging to activate the trigger mechanism of a weapon borrowed from the infantry and the problem of devising a strong enough pick-up on the engine cowling.

Or indeed how the ammunition belts would be fed (in either wing or cowling installation).

I have little doubt that it's posed purely for the photo.

Mee two.

PDR

[PDR1]

M79 is a 40mm grenade isn't it? The rounds in that belt aren't anywhere near that size!

PDR

[onetrack]

These two website links below, that contain a lot of Bird Dog info and pics (along with the Ravens), might serve to enlighten a number of the above posters.

The USAF Ravens and the Bird Dogs

Bird Dog photo gallery

The M60 machine gun was apparently mounted under the LH wing for night missions.
The M60 front bipod support legs can be easily and quickly folded in or out, and shortened as well.

M60 intimate details

I must say I'm pretty impressed with the size of the rocket pods fitted, and I wouldn't like to hazard a guess at what it did to IAS, when any number of rockets were fired!

EDIT: I don't think the round in the bandolier are M79 grenade rounds, as they appear to be too long. The M79 grenade was actually quite stubby, and didn't have a lot of range.

[ericferret]

The gun is between two flying helmets, so sitting on the cowling.

[Good Vibs]

Whats the weight of a 2.75 inch FFAR x the rocket pod x rockets?
Too much for the wings I suspect.
The L-19/0-1 did carry rocket pods but the smaller ones for most missions.
The mg on the cowl and helmet of course for show.
Looks like they took the photo just for fun and added all they could.
Real Rambos!

[PDR1]

Originally Posted by onetrack

The M60 machine gun was apparently mounted under the LH wing for night missions.
The M60 front bipod support legs can be easily and quickly folded in or out, and shortened as well.

But the wing-mounted weapon would almost certainly have been something like the M60C, which had hydraulic cocking and solenoid trigger together with a box-fed ammunition belt. They were certainly easily available because they were standard and role-fitments on many of the aircraft that were in theatre at the time. The aircraft-mounting versions never had stocks, handgrips or bipods because, well why would they...

The weapon in the picture is clearly the standard infantry weapon. If you mounted this on the wing you'd have toi find a way to cock it, fire it and feed it with ammunition - none of these would have simple solutions. As Eric says - this is an infantry weapon placed between two helmets on the cowl for a photo.

I must say I'm pretty impressed with the size of the rocket pods fitted, and I wouldn't like to hazard a guess at what it did to IAS, when any number of rockets were fired!

Erm...probably nothing much - that's rather the point of rockets. They are mounted in what is essentially an open tube, and when the rocket fires they just pull themselves out of it. Almost nothing impinges on the host aeroplane at all.

PDR