TAAG B-777 divert to Lisbon

[aheoe26104]

I just noticed a cllip on TV about D2-TEI (B-777) diverting to Lisbon. I was too late to pick up the gist, but notice on Flight Radar it is airborne again for Luanda. Any update?

[aheoe26104]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/14468387_1081057282001153_4419849144497569016_o.jpg

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

From another forum I believe there was a baggage loader still in the hold.

[Basil]

From another forum I believe there was a baggage loader still in the hold.
Errmm, isn't it going the wrong way for that? :E

[aheoe26104]

From another forum I believe there was a baggage loader still in the hold.

Thanks, I did notice a reference to a hospital.

[barry lloyd]

For anyone who reads Portuguese, here is the article:

TAAG vai apurar caso de funcionário fechado no porão de um avião (http://www.tsf.pt/sociedade/interior/funcionario-esquecido-no-porao-faz-regressar-aviao-da-taag-a-lisboa-5419139.html)

To paraphrase the article, his colleagues noticed he was missing after the aircraft took off and the captain was informed. The aircraft diverted to Lisbon and the ramp worker was found in the belly hold and taken to hospital. No mention of his condition.

I wonder if the 777 was overweight when it landed in Lisbon?

[tggm]

According to portuguese news sources, the worker was found unconscious and suffering of hypothermia. He remains in the hospital under observation.

Source (http://observador.pt/2016/10/01/aviao-aterra-de-emergencia-em-lisboa-com-trabalhador-esquecido-no-porao/)

[aheoe26104]

Would love to know how this can happen. When you turn around numbers of commercial aircraft daily, surely there are some kind of procedure to prevent this?

[lomapaseo]

According to portuguese news sources, the worker was found unconscious and suffering of hypothermia. He remains in the hospital under observation.

Is there not someway to get the flight crews attention by messing with a cargo fire detector somehow ?

[champair79]

According to avherald, he slipped while loading some animals and hit his head rendering him unconscious. I suspect he was out during the whole flight.

Champ

[pax2908]

Loading some animals ... then hypothermia ... ?

[sitigeltfel]

Having forty winks on the job and his mates forgot about him? Surely not!

[Huck]

Is there not someway to get the flight crews attention by messing with a cargo fire detector somehow ?

Not that I know of on the Triple.

The MD11 had it.

[wiggy]

Loading some animals ... then hypothermia ... ?

Not sure if I'm missing a smiley but if not - hypothermia v unlikely, given the holds are heated to well above zero .. Around 7-10 ish Celsius normally and usually up around room temp if livestock is carried.

Like huck I know of no way of anyone being stuck in the holds on a 777 can contact the flight crew.

[pax2908]

@wiggy I was referring to two earlier posts in this thread, one of them mentioning hypothermia. No smiley, but intrigued (exactly: if live animals then supposedly a heated cargo section).

[wiggy]

@wiggy I was referring to two earlier posts in this thread, one of them mentioning hypothermia. No smiley, but intrigued (exactly: if live animals then supposedly a heated cargo section).

Ah got you, thanks for clarification. Hypothermia report sounds a bit odd, then again.......

[DaveReidUK]

Like huck I know of no way of anyone being stuck in the holds on a 777 can contact the flight crew.

Though there have been cases where some determined percussion has achieved the desired effect (albeit on a 737):

Asleep ramp agent in cargo hold leads to Alaska Airlines emergency landing - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/14/travel/alaska-airlines-ramp-agent/)

[core_dump]

Like huck I know of no way of anyone being stuck in the holds on a 777 can contact the flight crew.

FIRE CARGO FWD would get the message across, I think. No need to start any fires.

[Mr Good Cat]

... and then the crew fire a load of fire suppressing agent into the hold and suffocate the poor fella? :=

[oldchina]

"slipped while loading some animals and hit his head rendering him unconscious"

I suppose it's possible. After all the captain of the Costa Concordia slipped and fell into a lifeboat.

[EcamSurprise]

FIRE CARGO FWD would get the message across, I think. No need to start any fires.

Good luck breathing after that..

[Una Due Tfc]

Indeed, no chance of surviving if someone blows the Halon bottles.

Imagine that moment when all his colleagues got back to their crews room or whatever and realised......

[750XL]

Indeed, no chance of surviving if someone blows the Halon bottles.

Imagine that moment when all his colleagues got back to their crews room or whatever and realised......

At large international airports these days it isn't always the case that you work as a 'team', various individuals will be chopping and changing between flights as and where they're needed so it's entirely possibly the poor lad could've gone all the way to Angola without anyone batting an eye lid :\

It's actually more common than you think for loaders to get locked in the hold, I've known it happen 3 times but thankfully they all managed to raise the alarm as they taxied out :\

[DaveReidUK]

In the bad old days it wasn't unusual to see loaders shut in the hold while they did their helpful checks on how securely the bags were locked ...

[Ancient Mariner]

Indeed, no chance of surviving if someone blows the Halon bottles.

Imagine that moment when all his colleagues got back to their crews room or whatever and realised......

Why would you not survive Halon?

[Una Due Tfc]

My terminology might be off but basically it removes all oxygen from the cargo hold, so anything alive won't be alive for long

[mmcp42]

but if he was loading livestock ...

[lomapaseo]

My terminology might be off but basically it removes all oxygen from the cargo hold, so anything alive won't be alive for long

I have never been trapped in a halon rich atmosphere but I have certainly entered enclosures within minutes of firing the bottles and I'm still alive.

But I will await actual data on firing bottles in aircraft holds with live animals

[Ancient Mariner]

My terminology might be off but basically it removes all oxygen from the cargo hold, so anything alive won't be alive for long
It doesn't

[Una Due Tfc]

Was the door open lomapaseo?


Edited to say, indeed, it seems my instructors back in the day were talking horse manure. Apologies

[crippen]

How safe is Halon?

Halons are low-toxicity, chemically stable compounds that have been used for fire and explosion protection from early in the last century. Halon has proven to be an extremely effective fire suppressant. Halon is clean (i.e., leaves no residue) and is remarkably safe for human exposure. Halon is a highly effective agent for firefighting in closed passenger carrying areas. Due to its effectiveness and relatively low toxicity, the FAA continues to recommend or require Halon extinguishers for use on commercial aircraft

What is Halon? How does Halon Work? Is Halon legal? Is Halon Safe? (http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_2.htm)

Telecom I used to work in had this installed. We were told to leave in an orderly fashion if activated. CO 2 had to be de-activated before entering.iirc

[b1lanc]

Halon, at least 1301 and 1211 were banned from manufacture in 1994, at least in the US as they were considered Ozone depleting substances. Believe there is still a substantial amount in inventory worldwide. New AC still use it?

[tdracer]

Yes, new at least some new aircraft use Halon. Apparently quite a bit of it was stockpiled for aviation use before new manufacture was banned.
Obviously that can't go on forever but suitable, effective substitutes have proved elusive. As I understand it, the stuff they are using for the 767-2C/KC-46 is a non-Halon powder similar to baking soda...

[FlightlessParrot]

The link provided by @crippen says that halon is recycled from old installations, so there should be a reasonable supply left.

I must say, I didn't know that halon did NOT work by displacing oxygen; I'm not a professional, but it seems from some responses that maybe that knowledge is not as widespread as it should be? It could make an operational difference, in some circumstances, I should imagine.

[Ancient Mariner]

I was an engineer on one of the first tank ships which had Halon installed in the engine room. I can assure you that the safety routines for CO2 and Halton was markedly different. I would be very suprised if this was not also the case in aviaton.

[Tech Guy]

Without going too far off topic, how does Halon work if not by displacing Oxygen?
I will admit it is a much nicer fire fighting medium than dry powder, which seems to destroy anything around it, although AFFF is pretty effective and doesn't leave a permanent trail of destruction after use.

[ImageGear]

I attended at a client computer centre shortly after the bottles had cracked.

18 bottles in total, each the size of an acetylene bottle, linked in pairs but due to the system being accidently left in test mode, only the first two pairs cracked.

The suspended ceiling came down, and dumped piles of black dust over everything.

Three operators were in the room, one managed to drag another to the door where others were able to pull them out. The Operations Manager grabbed a breathing unit and went in to find the 3rd guy unconscious and managed to drag him out. He took quite a while to get resuscitated but survived.

Halon sinks to the floor, so if you are prone, you get to buy the farm quickly.

The building had to be evacuated until the room could be purged by the fire service.

Deadly stuff which I believe was banned in computer rooms shortly after. I doubt anything in a cargo hold could survive, and the potential (in my mind) for distribution of the gas through the aircon still fills me with dread.

[wiggy]

I doubt anything in a cargo hold could survive, and the potential (in my mind) for distribution of the gas through the aircon still fills me with dread.

FWIW Given a percentage of the air you breath is sourced externally ( engine bleed air) and much more importantly given the direction and amount of airflow within the cabin and holds is reconfigured once you arm the cargo fire system (prior to discharge) to cater amongst other things for both possible smoke and the extinguisher discharge recirculation via the aircon shouldn't be an issue....(it says here in my 777 FCOM)...

[olandese_volante]

how does Halon work if not by displacing Oxygen?
At high temperatures, halons decompose to release halogen atoms that combine readily with active hydrogen atoms, quenching flame propagation reactions even when adequate fuel, oxygen, and heat remain.
Concentrations of Halon 1301 as low as 3-7% are effective for extinguishing fires.
Source: Wikipedia on halomethanes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halomethane#Fire_extinguishing)

[AndoniP]

I think it sits in your lungs for a while so not a good idea to sit there breathing it in if it goes off.


It's been replaced by FM200 for confined-room environments such as comms (server) rooms.


Interestingly it's still approved by the FAA I believe for use in aircraft even though it's been banned since 1994. It'll take a while before something with Halon's fire-suppresion properties is approved - a powder suppressant will likely inflict damage to the cargo whereas Halon doesn't.

[olandese_volante]

@AndoniP,

Halon has been banned globally because it makes holes in the ozone layer, while FM200 (which is also an haloalkane and works in the same way as Halon to extinguish fires) does not.
However, aircraft fire extinguishers are exempt from the ban because Halon is better suited for this application. I believe this is due to its lower boiling point: at -20°C, a Halon bottle will still work but a FM200 bottle won't, since at that temperature FM200 is a liquid.

There is no significant difference in toxicity between Halon and FM200. Both are quite innocuous at the concentrations typically employed (< 10%).

[luvly jubbly]

This thread's got more drift than Fast & Furious......

[Chesty Morgan]

So, talking of Fast and Furious...nitrous oxide is laughing gas isn't it?

[nicolai]

Neither Halon 1301 nor FM-200 are particularly safe for longer term exposure. They are not innocuous and long-term exposure is not recommended. If you are in a room where the gas fire suppression system discharges, leave immediately.

At high concentrations (which may happen in some parts of a space where it is discharged, in order to ensure extinguishing concentration in the whole space) both are an asphyxiant.

Halon 1301 "In low concentrations may cause narcotic effects. Symptoms may include dizziness, headache, nausea and loss of co-ordination."

"However, inhaling high concentrations of FM-200® vapor may cause temporary nervous system depression with anesthetic effects such as dizziness, headache, confu- sion, loss of coordination, and even loss of consciousness.... If vapors are inhaled at a concentration of 105,000 ppm and higher, the heart may become sensitized to adrenaline, leading to cardiac irregularities and, possibly, cardiac arrest. Similar effects are observed with many hydrocarbons and halocarbons at high concentrations. The likelihood of these cardiac problems increases if the person is under physical or emotional stress." I think I'd be under some emotional stress if I was being gassed in an aircraft hold.

Sources:

https://www.boconline.co.uk/internet.lg.lg.gbr/en/images/r13b1410_64634.pdf?v=1.0
https://www.chemours.com/FE/en_US/assets/downloads/pdf_fm/k23261_FM-200_PUSH.pdf