Adelaide in for a storm!

[Kulwin Park]

Just looking at BOM. Wow, SA airports are in for a hit! Hopefully all the GA aircraft are tied down :eek:
Stay dry, KP

[troppo]

No answers due to no power :p

[Flying Binghi]

Yer gotta be jealous of them South Oz residents. At the moment they is living the greeny dream..:)





.

[downdata]

Yer gotta be jealous of them South Oz residents. At the moment they is living the greeny dream..:)

.

To be fair, we are burning coal at the expense of their higher energy bill.

[Pinky the pilot]

At the moment they is living the greeny dream

And that dream has just turned into a Nightmare!:mad::ugh:

Many warnings were given apparently but the Govt. refused to listen it seems.:*

[capt.cynical]

what will the GREENY BIMBO'S use for electricty after coal.


CANDLES !!

[mostlytossas]

This will be good. Pilots telling us how to fix our HV transmission problems. Fact is the storm blew over 22 towers near Melrose. This trunk main supplies pretty well everything north and west of pt Pirie. Makes no difference how that power was generated it took out the system. The real issue is why it took out the rest of the state with it. The pollies and bureacrats are now covering there arses saying the system self protected itself. It shouldnt have. With auto reclosers,and a multitude of protection devises the system should have detected the line with the fault,dropped it off then re energised. It didnt. My personel opinion this is what you get when you sell off the assett and have multiple suppliers and distrubution networks all with there finger in the pie.The left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing. Good luck NSW with your sell off.

[compressor stall]

Facts at last. Nought to do with generation, all to do with distribution.

Funny thing is that a decent decentralised system fed by a generation in a multitude of decentralised locations (think rooftops, farms) would not rely on one point of failure. Think internet design.

[mostlytossas]

Too true. We had one once.At Port Augusta.

[mostlytossas]

In fact if Pt Augusta was still on line the eyre peninsula would be supplied today. It used to supply all that and back up Torrens Is in Adelaide. But what would I know.I not smart like our pollies and snakeoil salesmen.

[rutan around]

In fact if Pt Augusta was still on line the eyre peninsula would be supplied today.Did you ever stop to think that the dirty Pt Augusta power station and thousands of others like it may be a contributing factor to these weather events.

The problem of fluctuating power from renewables will be solved. The renewable industry is still in its infancy.

All those naysayers should hark back to early electricity production where the usual handbrakes predicted it would never be much use because the then DC current was only good for a couple of miles. .Then along came Nikola Tesla.

Where would we be today if the Luddites against electricity back then had not been ignored?

[CoodaShooda]

It was a 1 in 50 year event. Not a new manifestation of human induced climate change.

I'd be asking why 20+ transmission towers weren't engineered to withstand what is not an uncommon event.

[TBM-Legend]

Did you ever stop to think that the dirty Pt Augusta power station and thousands of others like it may be a contributing factor to these weather events.


Australia contributes less than 1% of global emissions. The clap trap that the Greens et al use is the "per capita" statistic which is in fact meaningless considering the number of people here. There are more people in Jakarta than Australia for example..

By the way, back to aviation, how did Parafield and ADL go?

[rutan around]

It was a 1 in 50 year event. Not a new manifestation of human induced climate change. The last time that South Australia had tornados was in May 2002 when it had two possibly three in the one day. 14 years later we have the current event. To maintain the 1 in 50 year average we should expect the next big event in 2102.

If one or more occur before then you may be induced to think you CoodaWooda Shooda been less skeptical about human induced climate change.

[rutan around]

Australia contributes less than 1% of global emissions.I believe I said thousands of others. We are all living in the same pool of air. If someone is pissing pollution into the other end of the pool eventually it will effect our end of the pool as well.

[CoodaShooda]

As I understood the Bureau of Meteorology, the last time there was an event of this nature was in the 1960's. This appears to have been more cyclone than tornado.

Those towers look rather flimsy, in any event.

(When the proponent of a position uses exaggerated claims and character assassination, rather than basic facts, as its tools of trade, I can be nothing but skeptical. :rolleyes:)

[Flying Binghi]

Via rutan around:
Did you ever stop to think that the dirty Pt Augusta power station and thousands of others like it may be a contributing factor to these weather events.

The problem of fluctuating power from renewables will be solved. The renewable industry is still in its infancy.

All those naysayers should hark back to early electricity production where the usual handbrakes predicted it would never be much use because the then DC current was only good for a couple of miles. .Then along came Nikola Tesla.

Where would we be today if the Luddites against electricity back then had not been ignored?

When the DC-AC industry were in its infancy it were private industry, not tax payer subsidies, that solved the mater. I note at the time of the DC-AC 'debate' there were no screaming AC zealots running around saying we needed to destroy all candles and gas lights as AC has arrived..:hmm:

...then along came Nikola Tesla.

"The only method compatible with our notions of civilisation and race is to prevent the breeding of the unfit by sterilisation and..."
continues PBS: Tesla - Master of Lightning: A Machine to End War (http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_art11.html)

...so, rutan around, are yer a eugenics true believer or is yer a Luddite..:hmm:





.

[rutan around]

This appears to have been more cyclone than tornado.My understanding of cyclones is that they form and are energised in warm tropical waters and they fizzle out over land or when they reach cool water. Have you ever swum in sea water in SA?

News reports say tornados took out the power towers. Before you become too skeptical it might be wise to check whether the claims are exaggerated.

A 'tornado' filmed in South Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-29/a-'tornado'-filmed-in-south-australia/7888192)

[rutan around]

Binghi,

not tax payer subsidies,Do I take it from this that you are advocating the removal of all taxpayer subsidies from the coal industry and the power distribution industry. If so you and I are on a unity ticket.:D

Humans are rarely (never?) flawless . Do we ignore Tesla's electrical genius because his outdated views re eugenics? Do we ignore Einstein's theories because he was a womaniser?

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... I see most of South Australia's big power stations ain't working at the movement..:confused: Plenty of coal around Oz, why ain't the S.A. Power stations working..:confused:.....:rolleyes:


Having a look-see at S.A's current wind map I see's quiet a bit of it:
https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-221.27,-33.53,3000

The big S.A. power stations are wind. Now they got too much wind..:rolleyes:
Hense, at the moment practically no wind power in S.A. Wind Energy in Australia | Aneroid (http://energy.anero.id.au/wind-energy/)




.

[Flying Binghi]

JoAnne Nova has a look-see at South Australia's greeny power fiasco...

The South Australian black out ? A grid on the edge. There were warnings that renewables made it vulnerable « JoNova (http://joannenova.com.au/2016/09/the-south-australian-black-out-a-state-running-without-enough-thermal-reserve-to-cope-with-contingencies/)




.

[rjtjrt]

Did you ever stop to think that the dirty Pt Augusta power station and thousands of others like it may be a contributing factor to these weather events.

The problem of fluctuating power from renewables will be solved. The renewable industry is still in its infancy.

All those naysayers should hark back to early electricity production where the usual handbrakes predicted it would never be much use because the then DC current was only good for a couple of miles. .Then along came Nikola Tesla.

Where would we be today if the Luddites against electricity back then had not been ignored?
Post 11 "The problem of fluctuating power from renewables will be solved. ....."

Do you have the same confidence that practical carbon capture and storage from coal or gas fired generators will be solved?

[Band a Lot]

I also would look at tower construction or design as the problem.

Gale-force winds are expected across the state, reaching speeds of 50 to 75 kilometres per hour with gusts of 90kph to 120kph.
Damaging winds gusts of 90kph to 115kph and winds averaging 50kph to 65kph have been recorded at multiple locations including Ceduna, Coles Point, Port Lincoln, Minlaton, Kadina, Woomera and Mount Crawford.


Past History below of recorded wind speeds!!!!!!!!


The SA record is 167 km/h at Woomera on 14 November 1979. While I haven't checked I presume this was a thunderstorm.

Finding wind gusts is a bit messy because a lot of the AWSs didn't feed daily maximum wind gusts into the database until quite recently, and the hourly/half-hourly gusts are full of dodgy observations. The following SA sites have recorded gusts of 120 km/h or more (this may reflect data availability rather than winds):

Woomera (max 167)
Leigh Creek (149)
Oodnadatta (141)
Marree (128)
Ceduna (158)
Neptune Island (122)
Cleve (124)
Coles Point (152)
Port Augusta (130)
Cape Willoughby (137)
Adelaide (WT) (148)
Parafield (141)
Penfield (145)
Adelaide AP (135)
Edinburgh (152)
Mount Gambier (143)


To pervious comment about cyclones below is a track map of cyclones, some travel vast difference over land and a few have formed overland.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3hjwfvcpl39kekj/cyclones.jpg?dl=0

[Ultralights]

The problem of fluctuating power from renewables will be solved. ....."

Do you have the same confidence that practical carbon capture and storage from coal or gas fired generators will be solved?

yes, the problem will be solved, and solutions are already starting to take shape! i myself have a 15KwH battery attached to the grid in the form of an EV vehicle, when im not driving it obviously, Nissan Leaf vehicles when plugged into the grid to charge, can be used as storage to smooth out those fluctuations in the UK. called Grid vehicles, the cars communicate with the energy providers, and when demanded, can return energy back to the grid from their drive batteries, or slow or stop their charging temporarily, or if needed can take up extra power when demand drops, by fast charging the vehicle.


How to Sell Power from Electric Cars Back to the Grid - Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-sell-power-from-electric-cars-back-to-the-grid/)

Link to PDF paper from Uni of Denmark here http://www.edison-net.dk/~/media/EDISON/Papers/Modeling%20of%20electric%20vehicles%20for%20EV%20grid%20inte gration%20study.ashx

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I think Cronulla is in for a Storm as well! :E

[lurker999]

"I also would look at tower construction or design as the problem."

How much do you want to pay? Those towers are often suspension systems. Ie the wires are part of the support system to hold the tower up. So if you lose the wires in a high wind or a tower is damaged and fails you are at risk of losing the towers in that area because they lose a large part of their structural support

There are often heavily engineered towers every so often to limit the cascading collapse that will happen if something does happen.


You can engineer things to withstand almost anything but at what cost and is it feasible to engineer HV transmission towers in SA to withstand a high cat2 storm when it happens so infrequently.

Also cascading power network failures are not uncommon. Lets not get carried away here.

[TopBunk]

Australia contributes less than 1% of global emissions.

That may be, but you represent about 0.3% of the global population, so you are still producing about 3 times the global average so have no room for complacency:8

[Band a Lot]

L999, look at the cyclone track map on same post.

No one else in Australia has the falling tower problem with stronger winds, just ring up any other state and territory and get design specs for towers - theirs all stand up to STRONGER winds.

My bet is they not built to spec by 666 (the devil to make a few bucks) but that's a guess.

[megan]

The Port Augusta power station was constructed in 1963, with additional capacity added in 1985. Though the station is no longer producing, the grid would still be in place to service towns. So the grid is probably aging, and designed to a standard that may no longer be applicable. Bass Strait oil rigs were designed to meet a one in something years event, but turned out the events were of a far more regular occurrence than expected. Personnel had to be evacuated when the weather reached a certain limit as a safety precaution, prior to the platforms undergoing structural strengthening.

[TBM-Legend]

That may be, but you represent about 0.3% of the global population, so you are still producing about 3 times the global average so have no room for complacency

The Earth doesn't count heads. It only senses total global emissions.

[rutan around]

Quote:
That may be, but you represent about 0.3% of the global population, so you are still producing about 3 times the global average so have no room for complacency
The Earth doesn't count heads. It only senses total global emissions. This doesn't alter the fact that we Australians are contributing way more than our fair share to atmospheric pollution.

[Flying Binghi]

via Ultralights:
yes, the problem will be solved, and solutions are already starting to take shape! i myself have a 15KwH battery attached to the grid in the form of an EV vehicle, when im not driving it obviously, Nissan Leaf vehicles when plugged into the grid to charge, can be used as storage to smooth out those fluctuations in the UK. called Grid vehicles, the cars communicate with the energy providers, and when demanded, can return energy back to the grid from their drive batteries, or slow or stop their charging temporarily, or if needed can take up extra power when demand drops, by fast charging the vehicle.


How to Sell Power from Electric Cars Back to the Grid - Scientific American

Link to PDF paper from Uni of Denmark here http://www.edison-net.dk/~/media/EDI...n%20study.ashx

Hmmm... So yer got an electric vehicle. A taxpayer subsidised electric vehicle ?
Considering that Oz power grids are maxed out I'm wondering just how many more taxpayer subsidised electric vehicles we can take..:hmm:

Anyway, reading the supplied links about all this charging, discharging got me thinking about battery life. A read of the links gave me this: "...the impact of charging and discharging on battery lifetime also has to be considered. The EV batteries characteristics that have to be included in the EV model are: charging power, discharging power, maximum SOC, minimum SOC/maximum depth of discharge (DOD) and charging time..." . All and good though apart from a very vague chart they didn't give any real answer to it. If the idea is to smooth out 'fluctuations in the grid' then yer might find the cars batterys are doing 100's of part cycles in a day. Those bright spark EV owners utilising the 'grid vehicle' program may find themselves buying a whole new battery pack every second year..:hmm:





.

[mikewil]

This doesn't alter the fact that we Australians are contributing way more than our fair share to atmospheric pollution. This is absolute crap.

The "per capita" clams of the greenies are deeply flawed. The only reason our rates are seemingly high compared to other western nations is because we have a small population and it is spread out over a massive area compared to other nations. Our high carbon emissions per capita are the result of distributing goods, services and electricity across such a vast land mass to a small population.

If anyone thinks that Australians live a particularly pollutive lifestyle compared to countries like the USA, you are kidding yourselves. If we were to reduce our per capita emissions to a value similar to that of the USA whilst maintaining our same population level, our standard of living would be significantly lower.

I didn't want to turn this into a debate about renewable energy policy but I am sick of the greenies and their attack on our standards of living because of cherry picked statistics. If they had their way, aviation would be the first industry to close.

[Ultralights]

So yer got an electric vehicle. A taxpayer subsidised electric vehicle ?
what makes you think i got a taxpayer subsidy? the total subsidies given to electric vehicles in Australia, and all states is a big fat $0. (ever wondered why they are so expensive in Oz?)

as for battery life, thats another myth in the proving, quite a few battery equipped hybrids have been on the roads now for decades, and none have shown any sign of battery life problems, and even if they did, the cost of new batteries, more powerful, more efficient batteries is coming down rapidly. even over the last 5 years, the cost has fallen 90%. thats part of the reason for the flood of new EV's in the works for release soon, with about 400Km ranges, at normal car prices.

[Capn Bloggs]

This doesn't alter the fact that we Australians are contributing way more than our fair share to atmospheric pollution.

Our high carbon emissions per capita are the result of distributing goods, services and electricity across such a vast land mass to a small population.

Also, using heaps of energy/creating "heaps" of GH emissions to produce low-emissions-gas for other countries to use to create low-carbon power...

[601]

Did you ever stop to think that the dirty Pt Augusta power station and thousands of others like it may be a contributing factor to these weather events.

If the transmission line fell near Melrose, which is a long way south of Port Augusta, why wasn't power supplied to the areas north of Port and the Eyre Pen. by the new beaut solar power station at Port Augusta and the wind turbines to the East of Port Augusta?

Surely they have not built a grid that cannot be segmented?

Maybe it was dark and the wind too strong.

Ops back to the drawing board.

[Flying Binghi]

Via Ultralights:
what makes you think i got a taxpayer subsidy? the total subsidies given to electric vehicles in Australia, and all states is a big fat $0...

Hmmm... When I put fuel in my car about half of the per litre cost is a road maintenance 'tax'. Do tell Ultralights, how do you pay for the roads you drive on ? Or do you rely upon the other taxpayers to subsidise the roads you use..:hmm:




.

[Ultralights]

Actually, $0.396 tax goes straight into federal consolidated revenue, not roads, yet only 1% of fuel taxes are actually spent on road infrastructure, or $0.09 from every $0.40 collected according to other sources(http://www.mynrma.com.au/blog/2014/05/13/petrol-tax-we-need-a-fairer-deal/)(http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/under-the-pump-where-your-petrol-taxes-are-really-going/story-fnagkbpv-1226298533026)(UNDER THE PUMP: Where the government is really spending your petrol taxes (http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/under-the-pump-where-your-petrol-taxes-are-really-going/story-fnagkbpv-1226298533026))
as for licence and rego fees, $0 of that goes into roads, the never ending argument against cyclists has proven that, all of that goes straight to the states consolidated revenue, so based on those facts, my EV, weighing more than your average SUV, pays more in rego taxes, so, yes, im paying my fair share considering most road funding come from general revenue payed by all taxpayers in the country, EV's cost more, so pay more stamp duty, and more GST, and possibly luxury car tax,
but if you really want to get down to it, i pay road taxes on the Unleaded fuel i burn in the air.. after looking at the figures now, i might just apply for a rebate. as my aircraft doesnt use roads. and no, the NSW govt doesnt have a 3x3 fuel levy either
(Fuel Tax Inquiry - Government Submissions (http://fueltaxinquiry.treasury.gov.au/content/Submissions/Government/NSWGovt_270.asp#2.2))
So, the only subsidy i could really take advantage of is the Huge subsidies given to the Coal industry to provide the power to charge the car, (if i wasnt using Solar or renewables) but hey, lets attack EV's because they apparently pay less road tax, and encourage people keeping cars that keep pumping out more poisonous gasses that kill 10's of thousands of people every year, and contributes to a massive health care bill. (paid by taxpayers)
as a test, pick 2 cars, one an EV, one the most fuel efficient petrol car on earth, put both in a sealed room, and choose one to spend a day inside with the engine running, which would you choose to spend a day sealed inside with?

Funny how the very small proportion of EV's on the roads are getting the blame for the reduced fuel tax revenues, when, over the past decade, most cars are twice as efficient now than they were, therefore reducing revenue by the same percentage, so, yeah, blame the 1% of cars on the road for that one.

and not only that, EVs can be used to help balance power grids, and provide power in times of unreliable power generation, but lets abandon that idea as well, because, less road tax!

and as for the argument, "your just moving emissions from the tailpipe to the power station"... well,
Bkh5nnMac7U

[Progressive]

Nice little video however......
The EV vehicle only weighs that much because of the weight of EV technology...batteries etc.
So an equivalent functionality vehicle will use about 2-3x as much energy for the same trip.
Add to that that coal produces more considerably carbon dioxide per Kw of energy extracted than gasoline:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11
And that between 5-10% of electrical energy is lost in transmission
And more still in generation (three energy conversions: coal to heat, heat to kinetic, kinetic to electric)
and they start to look the same.

[Biggles78]

Australia contributes less than 1% of global emissions.
So if we were to pollute on the per capita basis of the rest of the planet Australia must have a population of 70,000,000 (that 70 Million people for those confused by the zeros).


I was watching an FD PC-12 making an approach into YPAD as the front was coming through. They got in just a couple of minutes before the wind swung through about 100°. Don't know what the wind gust were but I imagine they earned their money that approach. :D:D:D


Not long after that the power went out so no more watching any interesting approaches. Bummer that.


The big S.A. power stations are wind. Now they got too much wind..
So why were the wind farms taken off line (I assume they feathered the blades on the towers)? Was it the gusts, wind velocity to high, possible rapid wind vector changes or a combination of them all? Don't know what turbines they have, if indeed they are all of the same make & model, so I don't know what their limitations are. Kudos to South Australia for having 40% of their power supplied by renewables. :ok:

[Flying Binghi]

Via Ultralights:
Actually, $0.396 tax goes straight into federal consolidated revenue, not roads, yet only 1% of fuel taxes are actually spent on road infrastructure, or $0.09 from every $0.40 collected according to other sources(http://www.mynrma.com.au/blog/2014/0...-1226298533026)(UNDER THE PUMP: Where the government is really spending your petrol taxes)
as for licence and rego fees, $0 of that goes into roads, the never ending argument against cyclists has proven that, all of that goes straight to the states consolidated revenue, so based on those facts, my EV, weighing more than your average SUV, pays more in rego taxes, so, yes, im paying my fair share considering most road funding come from general revenue payed by all taxpayers in the country, EV's cost more, so pay more stamp duty, and more GST, and possibly luxury car tax,
but if you really want to get down to it, i pay road taxes on the Unleaded fuel i burn in the air.. after looking at the figures now, i might just apply for a rebate. as my aircraft doesnt use roads. and no, the NSW govt doesnt have a 3x3 fuel levy either
(Fuel Tax Inquiry - Government Submissions)
So, the only subsidy i could really take advantage of is the Huge subsidies given to the Coal industry to provide the power to charge the car, (if i wasnt using Solar or renewables) but hey, lets attack EV's because they apparently pay less road tax, and encourage people keeping cars that keep pumping out more poisonous gasses that kill 10's of thousands of people every year, and contributes to a massive health care bill. (paid by taxpayers)
as a test, pick 2 cars, one an EV, one the most fuel efficient petrol car on earth, put both in a sealed room, and choose one to spend a day inside with the engine running, which would you choose to spend a day sealed inside with?

Funny how the very small proportion of EV's on the roads are getting the blame for the reduced fuel tax revenues, when, over the past decade, most cars are twice as efficient now than they were, therefore reducing revenue by the same percentage, so, yeah, blame the 1% of cars on the road for that one.

and not only that, EVs can be used to help balance power grids, and provide power in times of unreliable power generation, but lets abandon that idea as well, because, less road tax!

and as for the argument, "your just moving emissions from the tailpipe to the power station"... well,

Only 1%.... Hmmm...:hmm:

At the end of the day, how-ever yer want to spin it and however much wordage yer use, us petrol/diesel road users still pay a 'tax' for road usage that the electric cars don't pay. So a subsidy by any other name..:hmm:

Ultralights, what subsidies do the coal industry receive ? Considering coal is about 13% of our exports l'm a little mystified here. Coal mining also contributes to Oz aviation in a big way, so tell us more about these subsidies.




.

[Brian Abraham]

tell us more about these subsidiesMight be referring to not paying diesel tax.

[Ultralights]

Add to that that coal produces more considerably carbon dioxide per Kw of energy extracted than gasoline:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11
And that between 5-10% of electrical energy is lost in transmission
And more still in generation (three energy conversions: coal to heat, heat to kinetic, kinetic to electric)
and they start to look the same.
Yes, correct, but you are forgetting something,
the cost to get the oil from the ground to your car.. to produce a fuel, that is 70%wasted as heat via an exhaust pipe and engine block heating.

Coal,-- mined,---- transported------ burned---- electricity----car.
Oil, -- drilled,--- shipped,---- refined (using huge amounts of coal produced electricity)--- transported again---- stored---- pumped into car, 70% wasted as heat.

so, whats the carbon footprint comparison of both these process to get energy into a car?

so what will happen when all cars are taxed based on mileage travelled per year? and the old dinosaur powered cars are still taxed for the fuel they burn? will that be better? or will it still be unfair because, hydrocarbon burners pay even more tax?

and what about the Avgas taxes if this technology takes off..
http://hy4.org/zero-emission-air-transport-first-flight-of-four-seat-passenger-aircraft-hy4



but i can see where this is going, No point in reducing our carbon footprint, reducing not only greenhouse gasses, but pollution in general, cleaner air, all that greenie hippie crap, and a possible side effect of providing a reliable renewable energy source in times of energy grid fluctuations, because electric cars dont pay enough road tax via burning hydrocarbons... got it..

[Ultralights]

Might be referring to not paying diesel tax.

so i guess $4 Billion annually is a tiny subsidy?
Australian coal, oil and gas companies receive $4b in subsidies: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-11/coal-oil-and-gas-companies-receive-4-billion-dollar-in-subsidie/5881814)

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Kudos to South Australia for having 40% of their power supplied by renewables.

And kudos to them for sitting in the dark a couple of times over the last few weeks when it doesn't work. :ok:

[rutan around]

Mikewil states

The "per capita" clams of the greenies are deeply flawed. The only reason our rates are seemingly high compared to other western nations is because we have a small population and it is spread out over a massive area compared to other nations. Our high carbon emissions per capita are the result of distributing goods, services and electricity across such a vast land mass to a small population.To put it in his terms the claim is 'Absolute Crap'

90% of Australia's population lives in the urban cities and towns which are situated on the coastal fringe of the continent. No matter how hard you spin it to suit your agenda the fact remains it doesn't take much carbon to supply a mere 10% of the population with goods and services they require no matter how far flung they are. The vast majority of carbon emissions are created by the demands of the population dense coastal dwellers.

I didn't want to turn this into a debate about renewable energy policy but I am sick of the greenies and their attack on our standards of living because of cherry picked statistics. If they had their way, aviation would be the first industry to close. You are not even cherry picking your statistics. You're just making them up as you go along.

[Ultralights]

nd kudos to them for sitting in the dark a couple of times over the last few weeks when it doesn't work.
you do know what caused the outage right? nothing to do with its power sources.

[mikewil]

Kudos to South Australia for having 40% of their power supplied by renewables.

Yeah Kudos to them. The rest of Australia must be so envious of SA power prices which often approach double that of neighboring states.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Their reliance on interconnects means that any issues in their own system which causes withdrawal of supply by those interconnects, be it for price or self protection, means that people sit in the dark who shouldn't have to.

[Band a Lot]

Cut and pate from "private" section.

Long overdue CO2 emission's!

The aviation colour Code for Katla has been changed from green to yellow, meaning that the volcano is experiencing signs of elevated unrest above known background levels.

Icelandic authorities have also started contingency plans in case of an eruption. Katla is now long overdue a full-blown eruption, the last being in 1918. Seismic activity has been ongoing since the end of August and the authorities are now taking the necessary steps to prepare for what may come.

Katla Volcano: Civil Protection Uncertainty Phase Declared | Iceland Review (http://icelandreview.com/news/2016/09/30/katla-volcano-civil-protection-uncertainty-phase-declared)

[cattletruck]

Strong winds in Melbourne today and driving along the tramways I did notice a few wires flapping about wildly at a harmonic that didn't seem to be dampening. The infrastructure appeared to be holding...

Wonder if the same phenomena could have brought down those towers?

[601]

you do know what caused the outage right? nothing to do with its power sources.

Sure the towers came down, a lightning strike on a power station and the interconnector from Vic dropping of line as the start.

But why did the power to all of Eyre Pen. and Port Augusta fail when there is a solar power station at Port Augusta and wind turbines on the Eyre Pen.?

There areas are north of the fallen pylons so should have been able to be isolated from these towers.

[Ultralights]

because the whole grid shut itself down to protect itself from failing power lines.

[Slippery_Pete]

But why did the power to all of Eyre Pen. and Port Augusta fail when there is a solar power station at Port Augusta and wind turbines on the Eyre Pen.?

Why is this so hard to understand? It's been said ad nauseam by the owners of the infrastructure and the SA government. The entire state was shutdown due to hundreds of separate protection circuits. You can't just dump a 300,000V cable on the ground and leave the state connected to wind farms and the interconnector. If the entire state been left connected when the towers went down and the interconnector not been isolated, Victoria and potentially Tasmania would have been without power too.

Once these protections trip all over the state, it takes significant time to test, isolate the faulty infrastructure, and re-energise carefully by ensuring demand and load is balanced. Do you think they just need to lift the cables off the ground with one hand and flip a big, novelty ON/OFF switch?

[Ultralights]

this is the real question, why did so many towers collapse in winds that are pretty mild compared to what others can withstand. Cyclone Yasi, only 2 towers failed, and due to land slides, against 235Kp/h winds. the Snowly scheme regularly sees winds of over 150 Kmh without issue.

https://medium.com/@andynehl/why-did-so-many-of-south-australias-electricity-transmission-towers-collapse-1604702516b1#.g5hedihtn

[Cloudee]

There were tornados reported in the area. Some mangled farm buildings that certainly copped far more than the reported winds.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-29/downed-transmission-towers/7888470

[Pinky the pilot]

There were tornados reported in the area.

There was some albeit very brief video footage shown on TV News of the storm clouds in that area and one brief clip, to me at least, was a perfect example of a small Tornado.

When I did my CPL Met theory many years ago, the Met Lecturer (Bob S. At YPFL TAFE in the early 80's)was a qualified Meteorologist, CPL Holder and Instructor as well, and he told us that Tornados are far more common in Australia than a lot of people realise.:ooh:

[Kulwin Park]

As stated above, the winds were pretty strong in Melbourne, that apparently a piper warrior without an engine blew up onto a hangar roof landing upside on it! Pictures are floating around but not in my possession. The SOAR aviation building by looks of it.

[gerry111]

"... and potentially Tasmania would have been without power too."

Have they fixed the interconnector from Victoria to Tasmania, yet?

Once upon a time, S.A had three State owned utilities: ETSA was the 'Electricity Trust of SA'. E&WS was the 'Engineering and Water Supply'. SAGASCO was the 'SA Gas Company'. They reliably supplied electricity, water, sewerage and gas. And then at an affordable price for all residents.

Then along came quite a few spivs who sucked the State government in that privatisation of their utilities was the way to go. The then national electricity marketer NEMCO etc.. :ugh:

P.S. Those that designed those rather solid Stobie poles sure didn't design the transmission towers that fell over..

[601]

The entire state was shutdown due to hundreds of separate protection circuits.

So we had "hundreds of separate protection circuits"

So it is one big grid that cannot be isolated into "sections"
If the interconnector can isolate SA as a state from the national grid, surely one can isolate sections within a state.

When the towers in NQ were blown over a few years back, all of Qld did not black out.

[Slippery_Pete]

Have they fixed the interconnector from Victoria to Tasmania, yet?

Yes. Basslink was finally repaired and made operational a few months ago. Although with the amount of rain they've had, they are probably self supporting on hydro at the moment.

So it is one big grid that cannot be isolated into "sections"
If the interconnector can isolate SA as a state from the national grid, surely one can isolate sections within a state.

Depends on how the infrastructure is designed. Also, it isn't isolated by people - it's done by automatics. When large isolations occur, sudden changes in demand can cause upline ripples. These become bigger and bigger as more load is shed, causing things like the heavily protected interconnector to self isolate.

Eyre peninsula, now powered, is still only just hanging on via one transmission line. They had a blackout for over two days because all three transmission systems were wiped out. They had to repair one temporarily, isolate the other two, and then slowly bring it online.

The transmissions towers are made to withstand a 1 in 100 year event. This means FNQ infrastructure is much stronger, to withstand cyclone force winds. Do people expect every building and structure in the south if the country should be built to cyclone standards? That would be unnecessarily expensive.

[megan]

Once upon a time, S.A had three State owned utilitiesAnd during my time as an electrician none of them supplied Whyalla. It's electrical supply came from a BHP power house (steam turbines) which was fuelled by gases from the blast furnace.

[mostlytossas]

Geez megan you are going back a bit now. I also worked at BHP and while you are correct,that was until the steel rolling mills were built in the early 60s. ETSA power was then required as the blast furnace powerhouse could no longer supply all of the plant and the town. I remember the towers being built from pt Augusta well. A second line was added later and I think extended at that time all the way down to pt Lincoln which had a diesel run powerhouse for its supplies and then got decommissioned as it was too expensive to run with the oil shocks of the 70s. Memory is getting faded so may be a little out. I am assuming BHP or Arrium as it is now called decommissioned its powerhouse in later years going on there concerns of no power with this outage.

[Deaf]

Going on memory.

Blast furnaces produce a LOT of carbon monoxide which must be burnt to carbon dioxide to avoid poisoning the workers around - generally this is done in an associated power station.

Highest priority use is providing air for the blast furnace (the blast bit).

There is generally more than enough power for a complete steelworks and considerable export but initial rolling of slabs can be tricky re phase etc so better to have the power station connected to a larger grid. Other high loadings are starting big electric motors eg fan motors for blast, sinter plant suction etc.

[mostlytossas]

Reckon you would be right there too. I recall having to take a canary with us when working near the top of the blast furnaces and if it fell over you had to fit your gas mask quick and get out of there. The intial rolling mill billet stand motors were 15,000hp DC English Electric motors (for speed control)via rows of contactors and resistor banks. You would walk inside them when carring out maintenance like changing brushes. I assume it is all done by AC motors via invertors now,but this was in the day before heavy duty electronics.

[megan]

mostlytossas, perhaps I know you. Was an apprentice at the time and involved with a Swiss engineer installing new control panels in the power house. Then went to the steel works for the last period of construction, and stayed for commissioning, and early days of production on maintenance. Then went to ship construction/fitting out wharf and left mid 66.

[mostlytossas]

I also recall something called a Ward Lennon set. This on memory was 2 AC motors at each end driving a DC generator to produce the DC supply to run the above motors. Im starting to have nightmares about it all.

[mostlytossas]

Megan, sorry but I started there in 68.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

The SA experiment shows us that beyond 15% renewable inputs develops an instability in maintaining synchronous 50hz power. Fact, just before the failure 960Mw of power was generated by the various wind turbine sites. Whatever caused the shutdown there was still over 500Mw on the interconnector lines...they were still operational...they did not collapse or lose a tower. The footage on TV only shows dinki 72 or 134Kv distribution lines not the big 300Kv monsters. When the review comes out, my bet is on a distribution Lin going down BUT the damage caused when over 900Mw of wind power dropped off line causing the brown out cascade shutdown of the entire system. There was not enough synchronous generating capacity close enough to even attempt to take up enough load to allow safe load shedding to keep the system alive...This was a BLACK shutdown! Ask any engineer how bloody hard it is to bring the entire network back online without sizeable generation assets. Wind will not even connect with being able to sense a load. Same with solar.

Note, SA is now functioning. This negates the idea of a main 300Kv transmission line coming down. 21 towers repaired in 5 days? And bring the network up to synchronous power across the state? Wait for the report and watch who does the government bidding. Wind power is not base load power.

Want to make the system work? Hook all that wind power up to pumped storage hydro. Regardless of pumping losses from "free" power, this will be the only way demand power could be made available from windfall generation

[Capn Bloggs]

Those that designed those rather solid Stobie poles...
Best thing about SA: they never fall over and never catch fire!

[gerry111]

"I also recall something called a Ward Lennon set."

I'd be thinking Ward Leonard named after the inventor? It's basically an electro mechanical device to control the speed of a DC motor.

(Off topic: The RAAF single seat Mirages had one on the back of the Cyrano radar to control the DC drive motors that controlled the radar antenna scanning. I'm not sure that I understood how that worked then and certainly not now.) :confused:

[certifs]

From the AEMO report this morning:
The predicted weather front moved through SA on the afternoon of Wednesday 28 September 2016, including high winds, thunderstorms, lightning strikes, hail, and heavy rainfall.
The weather resulted in multiple transmission system faults. In the short time between 16:16 and 16:18, system faults included the loss of three major 275 kV transmission lines north of Adelaide.
Generation initially rode through the faults, but at 16:18, following an extensive number of faults in a short period, 315 MW of wind generation disconnected (one group at 16:18:09, a second group at 16:18:15), also affecting the region north of Adelaide.
The uncontrolled reduction in generation resulted in increased flow on the main Victorian interconnector (Heywood) to make up the deficit.
This resulted in the Heywood Interconnector overloading. To avoid damage to the interconnector, the automatic-protection mechanism activated, tripping the interconnector. In this event, this resulted in the remaining customer load and electricity generation in SA being lost (referred to as a Black System).
This automatic-protection operated in less than half a second at 16:18.
The event resulted in the SA regional electricity market being suspended.

A ‘Black System’ start is a pre-defined and practised plan which was activated following assessment of the electricity system and public and employee safety.
At 17:23, AEMO directed the SA transmission network owner ElectraNet to progressively energise the main Victorian interconnector through to Adelaide to start Torrens Island Power Station and provide a basis to allow customer supply to be restored.Restoration of electricity supply started in Adelaide at 19:00. By midnight on Wednesday 28 September 2016, 80–90% of electricity (that could be restored) was restored.
The remaining electricity load could not be restored, as the loss of three of the four 275 kV transmission lines north of Adelaide, together with the unknown status of the fourth line (which required physical inspection), effectively cut the SA transmission grid in two, isolating the north of the state.
In accordance with standard industry practices to protect public safety and the safety of ElectraNet’s field crews, the transmission lines north of the Adelaide metropolitan area could not be re-energised before visual inspection on the morning of Thursday 29 September 2016. Continued poor weather conditions and high winds kept helicopters grounded, making slower ground patrols of the transmission network necessary.
The northern line confirmed intact was re-energised at 12:15 on Thursday 29 September 2016, allowing some electricity to be restored in the northern region.
Supply to the three large industrial sites in the north of the state remains constrained due to the limitations which remain in the northern region.
At 21:00 on Friday 30 September 2016, the last remaining segment of transmission supply, the southern Eyre Peninsula, was restored.
Temporary transmission tower structures owned by ElectraNet have been deployed, and also contributed by network owners in other states to assist in the restoration. Access continues to be hindered by poor weather conditions and flooding. Consequently, the restoration of the second and third lines is expected to take 7–10 days.
On Thursday 29 September 2016, pursuant to clause 3.14.3 (2) of the National Electricity Rules (Rules), AEMO was directed to suspend the market in the SA National Electricity Market region by Ministerial direction by the South Australian Government under the Essential Service Act 1981.
The SA wholesale electricity market remains suspended and prices continue to be determined in accordance with schedules and processes defined in the Rules.

[Capn Bloggs]

The props stopped and the power went off... The question is, had a power station been supplying that 315mw of power, would it have disconnected? And putting all your eggs in the Haywood connector basket is obviously a dumb idea. Get your act together, you crow-eaters!

[megan]

The media is now reporting that Electra Net, operator of the high voltage transmission infrastructure has had to install a "kill switch" to isolate the Prominent Hill mine, Olympic Dam and Roxby Downs. Apparently with the withdrawal of Port Augusta power station, reliance was placed totally on the interconnector, and at times of low wind and moderate to high power demand the system is unable to cope. More telling, is that they say no credible consideration was ever given to the limitations those factors imposed.

In today's news the Whyalla steelworks have lost confidence in the states ability to supply power, and are in talks to generate their own power using waste process gases and natural gas. To get through the troubles they have sourced generators from WA, Q'land and NSW.

Way to go SA. :{

[Capn Bloggs]

The hypocrisy of using the interconnector, which is powered by Victorian coal, beggars belief... If Weatherill had any morals at all, he'd demand the power coming through that be clean. If he wants 40% of his power to be clean, the he can generate the dirty 60% himself.

[Capn Bloggs]

The hypocrisy continues...

Mr Koutsantonis said state and federal funding could be made available to help a buyer (of the Arrium steelworks, currently in administration) upgrade the plant to generate the 80 megawatts required to make the steelworks self-sufficient.
Can't guarantee you power ourselves, sorry, but we'll give you some money so you can put in a gas power station...

[IFEZ]

And to think the idiot running our state (Vic) is sending us down the same path. Despite the overwhelming evidence SCREAMING at him that the power supply in SA is a shambles, he's going to adopt the same ludicrous mantra. We want to be 'clean & green' as well. That's more important than providing reliable power to keep industry ticking over, and lighting/heating etc to the masses!! :ugh:


Sheer folly to think that wind & solar alone is a viable alternative.


After he decimates the Latrobe Valley, we won't be able to power our own state let alone provide a back-up to SA. Its looking like not just industry that will be needing a back-up generator. I can see it now, every house in the street with a back-up generator chugging away in the evening, so they can cook their dinner, and watch the nightly news, with the premier crapping on about how he's saving the planet from all those dirty coal-fired power stations he's shutting down, while the rumble of the generators and the smell of the diesel fumes continue into the night.... :D


Meanwhile, in India & China, as they build another couple of hundred new coal-fired power stations to supply cheap & reliable power to their booming economies, what must they be thinking when they see us shutting ours down, leaving the resource we are fortunate to have, buried in the ground, and going with an alternative that is much more expensive and a lot less reliable. :ugh: :ugh:


As my grandfather used to say.. 'Wake up Australia'..!! http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

[certifs]

The props stopped and the power went off... The question is, had a power station been supplying that 315mw of power, would it have disconnected? ...

Well, the answer is yes.
"but at 16:18, following an extensive number of faults in a short period, 315 MW of wind generation disconnected" is lawyer speak for the lines fell down and the power went off.

But if you want more detail it's in the report, the timeline (P10) is clear

16:18:08 (T-8s) Single-phase-to-ground fault on Davenport – Belalie 275 kV line.
16:18:09 (T-7s) 123 MW reduction in output from North Brown Hill Wind Farm, Bluff Wind Farm, Hallett WindFarm, and Hallett Hill Wind Farm.

[The Bluff and North Brown Hill WFs are connected to Davenport-Belalie line and they tripped one second after the line went down]


16:18:13 (T-3s) Single-phase-to-ground fault on Davenport – Mt Lock 275 kV line
16:18:15.1 (T-0.9s) 86 MW reduction in output from Hornsdale wind farm. 106 MW reduction in output from Snowtown 2 wind farm.

[Hornsdale is connected to Mt Lock-Davenport line and it tripped 2.1 seconds after the line went down.]

No generator (of whatever type) would have been able to export as there were no lines left to export down.
---------
Then the interconnector tripped as it was carrying its full load to start with (a decision made well before time by AEMO who thought that the likelihood of this type of event happening was "not credible")

Then the frequency swung at about 6Hz/sec which is about twice the "safe" rate as decided by AEMO about 10 years ago and now set in the protection of all the generators in the national market. IE there isn't a power station in Australia that would have stayed on under those conditions.

Certifs

[rjtjrt]

And to think the idiot running our state (Vic) is sending us down the same path.

They don't call him D*ckhead Dan for nothing!

[Aussie Bob]

This thread is interesting in that there are a lot of electrically savvy pilots commenting on it. It would seem that, as tradies go, electricians turn into pilots more than say plumbers, builders or mechanics. Or perhaps vice versa? I gained my electrical qualifications well after becoming a commercial pilot to supplement poor GA pay.

Is there a correlation between an interest in flying and an interest in electrons?

Sheer folly to think that wind & solar alone is a viable alternative.Is it folly, or are we just seeing teething problems in the transition (from coal to renewable)? Is expecting a 100% reliable grid 100% of the time optimistic? I would tend to think so.

[Flying Binghi]

"...The Australian Energy Market Operator’s preliminary report into the recent South Australian blackout reveals that the primary reason for the total loss of power was a sudden reduction in wind power being fed into the electricity network..."


https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/10/05/australian-energy-market-operator-report-says-wind-farms-were-the-ultimate-cause-of-blackout-network-withstood-pylon-downings/





.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

"...The Australian Energy Market Operator’s preliminary report into the recent South Australian blackout reveals that the primary reason for the total loss of power was a sudden reduction in wind power being fed into the electricity network..."


From The Institute of Public Affairs - the bastion of the right wing think tanks with no barrow to push.

AEMO are a bunch of dills - certifs has it right, three transmission lines went down - that happened to all lead from wind farms. No generation source would have coped with the sudden, massive impacts to the lines and maintained supply in tolerance.

[gerry111]

Page 22 of the AEMO report is also enlightening.

(SRAS are apparently "System Restart Ancillary Services".)

"AEMO has two contracted SRAS services in South Australia. For confidentiality reasons under the contracts, AEMO is unable to identify the providers of these service [sic] but will refer to them as "SRAS provider 1" and "SRAS provider 2."

Of course, both providers failed on the day. :ugh:

I note that the Heywood interconnector was operating at 525 MW prior to the failure. It has a maximum capacity of 600MW. What a great design!

The supply of electricity in S.A. appears to be more about running a market than an essential service. :(

[megan]

123 MW reduction in output from North Brown Hill Wind Farm, Bluff Wind Farm, Hallett WindFarm, and Hallett Hill Wind FarmThe wind farms had been shut down in any case as the winds were above limits, not that they could have helped with the lines down.

[certifs]

The wind farms had been shut down in any case as the winds were above limits, not that they could have helped with the lines down.

No.
This is a zombie argument. It is not true, yet it keeps being touted as "fact".

It is true that windturbines can (and will) shut down in high winds.
In the case of this event the report clearly shows the windturbines shutdown 1 or 2 seconds _after_ their respective lines went down.

Certifs

[certifs]

Page 22 of the AEMO report is also enlightening.

(SRAS are apparently "System Restart Ancillary Services".)

"AEMO has two contracted SRAS services in South Australia. For confidentiality reasons under the contracts, AEMO is unable to identify the providers of these service [sic] but will refer to them as "SRAS provider 1" and "SRAS provider 2."

Of course, both providers failed on the day. :ugh:

Glad someone bothered to read the actual document, to base their opinions on. :)
Yes, _most_ "enlightening" eh. (I didn't mention it in the earlier post as it would have muddied the issue. It still will)
Note that neither of the SRAS providers in SA are renewable energy, in fact one was built to be the black start backup in the old ETSA system. It failed to live up to expectations in the 1980 black start as well, for those interested in history repeating.
Also, if anyone wants to think about this issue a bit more, I'll add one of the (many) things which annoys me about this whole renewables debate;
When you hear a statement that windturbines are "parasitic" and need the system to be operating before they can synchronise. This is true, but it is a twisted truth. None of the big base load stations in SA can start without a connection to a live grid either, so they are just as "parasitic".
And to cap it nicely, the only two generators who said they could do a black start (and took payments on that basis), when came time to do it, couldn't.


I note that the Heywood interconnector was operating at 525 MW prior to the failure. It has a maximum capacity of 600MW. What a great design!

The supply of electricity in S.A. appears to be more about running a market than an essential service. :(

Yes. Interesting isn't it.
I recall a discussion I had in 1997 with a senior federal government policy wonk regarding the introduction of the, then new, electricity market. Basically they compared the supply of electricity to the supply of milk, if you can't get enough through your normal supplier, someone would step in and provide the supply you do want. I, and others, pointed out the lead time of a new power station was about a decade.

Certifs

[mostlytossas]

I agree with you certifs. As I said way back in post #7 this will be good pilots telling us how to fix our distrubution problems.It was. We have had all kinds of claims as to how wind farms are the problem etc,which has nothing to do with it. Could have been 1000 chinese pedalling a generator the same would have happened. To put it real simple. Just as a faulty toaster may trip your power circuit in your home it should not take out your lights,stove,hot water,shed etc. Unless you cut corners and say installed your RCD (safety switch) as your main switch which is pretty stupid but happens. Likewise when the trunk main failed at Melrose it should not have taken out Adelaide and the south east.
Problem is we now have a privatised carved up supply network,each with there own protection systems only protecting themselves,not allowing a fault to isolate elsewhere first before shutting down.

[Flying Binghi]

Via certifs:
...It is true that windturbines can (and will) shut down in high winds.
In the case of this event the report clearly shows the windturbines shutdown 1 or 2 seconds _after_ their respective lines went down.

Hmmm... Here's me thinkin it were the surge from Victoria that did the black out. How many wind power facility's in S.A. 12, 15, 20. ?


Via certifs:
...I recall a discussion I had in 1997 with a senior federal government policy wonk regarding the introduction of the, then new, electricity market. Basically they compared the supply of electricity to the supply of milk, if you can't get enough through your normal supplier, someone would step in and provide the supply you do want. I, and others, pointed out the lead time of a new power station was about a decade.

Ten years eh..:hmm: Somebody better tell the Chinese. They open up a new coal fired power station every other week. Obviously they didn't get the memo. ...Or perhaps they just get the advise of competent people..:)

I would reckon, un-edumecaited fellow that i is, that if we asked the Chinese to build us a few coal fired power stations, they'd have them turn key ready in under three years and they'd cost far, far, far less then the unreliable wind generators. Just think, good cheap and reliable power for a clean living result and an attractive business investment state..:)




.

[capt.cynical]

Any statements from SHY.

[rutan around]

I would reckon, un-edumecaited fellow that i is, that if we asked the Chinese to build us a few coal fired power stations, they'd have them turn key ready in under three years and they'd cost far, far, far less then the unreliable wind generators. Just think, good cheap and reliable power for a clean living result and an attractive business investment state..http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gifBinghi you forgot to include 'dirty' in your coal power description. Perhaps this year you can keep warm burning your coal share portfolio and next year follow the UKs example.

TODAY IN THE MACKAY MERCURY
SOLAR panels generated more electricity than coal in the past six months in a historic year for getting energy from the sun in the UK, according to a new analysis. Research by the Carbon Brief website found that solar generated nearly 7,000 gigawatt hours of electricity between April and September, about 10 per cent more than the 6,300GwH produced by coal during the same period.
The figures represent a dramatic turnaround in the UK's electricity supplies.
, solar is one of the cheapest forms of power.

If they can produce cheap solar power in cold cloudy UK it should be a piece of cake over here.:ok:

[megan]

This is a zombie argument. It is not true, yet it keeps being touted as "fact".certifs, from todays reports it seems the zombie argument might, in fact, be fact. It is being reported that the software control systems for the wind farms had been set at too conservative a level in their ability to handle faults. They don't specify the faults which occurred, making mention only of lightning strikes, so wind as I mentioned may, or may not, have have been one of the faults. The interconnector dropped out due to its inability to handle the load after the wind farm dropped out. The wind farm has now had control systems set to a more realistic level of fault toleration, and operator is now wondering about about liability claims as a result of its too conservative an approach with regard to faults. The towers apparently came down after the wind farm isolation.

[Flying Binghi]

Via rutan around:
Binghi you forgot to include 'dirty' in your coal power description...

A couple of days ago... picking a few weeds out of a veggie garden, it occurred to me just how 'dirty' and muddy it all were to get them filthy veggies to the table. Though not to worry, thanks to them 'dirty' coal fired power stations i could go and wash the veggies under a tap and then cook em up and put em on a plate with the roast lamb... While we is with roast lamb, 'dirty' things sheep, dirt and crap all over them all the time and they eat straight off the 'dirty' ground. Though not to worry, by the time that sheep gets chopped up and is on the shelf at Coles it's all clean thanks again to 'dirty' coal.
Good thing dirt. That 'Dirty' earth gives me them veggies and that roast lamb and that 'dirty' earth gives me good cheap power so i can live the clean life..:)

Try again rutan around..:hmm:




.

[le Pingouin]

Good luck in washing the PM10 and PM2.5 particles out of your lungs Binghi. Suck on a VW diesel exhaust for extra effect.

[rutan around]

Binghi it must be getting late or you're worn out harvesting and cleaning all those dirty vegetables. I really expected a better response. The thing is every bit of dirt you referred to effected no one other than yourself and whilst probably against your principles you most likely recycled the dirt and unwanted green waste back into your garden.

Burning fossil fuel is a very different matter as you can't keep it in your own back yard.

I also wash vegetables and cook lamb all done with solar power , rainwater tanks and an Onga electric pump.

Your no comment re the UK making more power from solar than from coal was very loud.

[cattletruck]

I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again.

Back in 2004 a work colleague suggested they should build a solar panel factory on wheels that operates in the desert and all it does all its life is built and maintain a massive grid of a solar array measured in the hundreds of square kilometres in size.

South Australia would have been an ideal place for such a thing - plenty of silica about.

[Capn Bloggs]

The SA Government zombies are at it again: "I order you to provide me with stable power!! (thru that brown-coal fired interconnector).

Flow restrictions on SA, Victoria interconnector revoked, AEMO responds to emergency order - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-06/flow-restrictions-placed-on-sa-victoria-interconnector/7911276)

[certifs]

certifs, from todays reports

I assume you are talking about the article in the Australian. More to say on that further on.

it seems the zombie argument might, in fact, be fact. It is being reported that the software control systems for the wind farms had been set at too conservative a level in their ability to handle faults. They don't specify the faults which occurred, making mention only of lightning strikes, so wind as I mentioned may, or may not, have have been one of the faults.

No. It really, really wasnt.
There are things which are plausible and things which aren't.
There are a number of systems on a windturbine that you might loosely call protection. Some for mechanical reasons (eg overspeed, oil temperature etc) and some for electrical problems (eg over current, phase unbalance, earth fault etc). The only fact we know is from the AEMO report which shows that the generators stopped working _after_ the lines stopped working.
For it to be a wind/speed related shut down it must be argued that the turbines shut down (remember there are 10's of them, each individually speed monitored) all coincidentally at the same time, coincidentally a second or two after the lines failed (in whatever way they failed). And that happened twice. At different geographic locations.
OR we could assume it was an electrical protection operation in response to the line fault (ultimately by one or two circuit breakers disconnecting the whole farm at once from the grid). In which case, effect does follow cause, the outcome is what could be expected. And because the are a number of different ways, with different settings, that the electrical protection could operate, that would explain the "we don't know the reason" that is being touted around in the media.

The interconnector dropped out due to its inability to handle the load after the wind farm dropped out. The wind farm has now had control systems set to a more realistic level of fault toleration, and operator is now wondering about about liability claims as a result of its too conservative an approach with regard to faults.

If this is based on the Australian article (otherwise what article was it from?) I will note a couple of things. Their un-named "industry expert" is the one who is talking about liability. I doubt any of the windfarm participants really care too much, there will be some juggling of blame and maybe someone will pay something. This is just cost of doing business. Refer to gerry111's comments on the SRAS. Those people _do_ have something to worry about. Weirdly, no one want to talk about paying millions (yes $50 million over the last few years for all of the NEM, I believe) for a service which wasn't provided.
Anyway, the expert seems to be talking about ride through ability that most power stations should have (I am not sure all power stations do in fact have these performance standards because some older stations had some of the standards waived, at least early on in the transition to the market, but all the new wind farms would/should). There was an interesting report done after a fail to ride through by the now extinct Northern Power Station in 2005. They got fined, some 100's thousands dollars from memory. You should be able to find it on AEMO website.
Anyway back to the Australians expert. He talks about riding through 50 faults in 2 minutes. I am unfamiliar with what part of the National Electricity Code he got that from. There are a number of ride through parameters (how low the voltage can go, for how long etc) in the code. The relevant ride through for windfarms with 100% voltage loss is 430 milliseconds. This seems to line up fairly well with factual data from the AEMO report.
You'll also note from the last couple of paragraphs tucked away at the end of the Australian article, both the AGL chief and an un-named spokesman have fairly carefully worded their responses to indicate they have "read the report" ie they aint sayin' what they have done (if anything) and are pointing the finger at the grid protection settings (which was my first suspicion last week, though I don't hold that view as strongly now, in view of the extent of damage to the transmission system).


The towers apparently came down after the wind farm isolation.

Yes, some of them did. Do you think that mean that the ones that came down before the windfarms tripped had no effect?


Certifs

[certifs]

... when ever an aviation incident appears in the media, on this website there is usually a lot of bitchin' and moanin' and laughing about how inaccurate they are. They cant tell a Cessna from a Jabiru.
And when that same media reports on non aviation topics, we assume they are the fount of all knowledge??

:ugh:

certifs

[nomorecatering]

This is a wonderful thread, surely the thread of the year. I honestly didn;t know it was so complicated. So, some questions from a lay person.

It seems that wind turbines output frequency varies according to the rpm. How do they get a stable 50 Hz output with a constantly varying rpm? Some sort of frequency converter?

Why do power stations require an input voltage to start generating power.

Why do power stations take so long to spool up, if they had steam pressure, wouldn't the generators spool up quite quickly? Do they reduce the steam generation in periods of low demand.

During periods of increasing demand from consumers, does this extra load cause the generator rpm to decay, reducing the frequency, if so why would damage occur if the frequency output of the generators falls below 47 Hz.

How does the system cope with instant demand increases when hundreds of thousands of people put the kettle on at the same time during a commercial break on a popular TV show. I think they call it the East-Enders effect. A TV show in the UK that was massively popular and they could predict the spikes in electricity demand from the Ad breaks.

Lastly, why do we have backup services that are secret (provider 1 and provider 2). This, to my simple mind is unacceptable.

I hope the questions don't sound too dumb, just trying to get my head around it all.

[Captain Dart]

And how long does it take for a wind turbine to repay the energy that went into making the materials that went into it, its fabrication, transport to site, erection and maintenance?

What is considered a normal life for one of these things?

I could ask how many birds and bats one will kill in its lifetime but that may hit a nerve with some.

[megan]

Certifs, I take your point about the media. Perhaps the truth will out in the end? Or, perhaps not, if prominent heads are on the chopping block.

I gave the article some credibility because he is highly regarded as being a "real" investigative journalist.

[mostlytossas]

I suggest you google large wind turbines. There are plenty of sites to tell you how they work and life span etc. I think it said 25yrs. Interestingly Australia is about 17th in the world in numbers in use.

[mostlytossas]

Nomorecatering, I was hoping someone else would pad up and answer your questions but I will have a crack at it for you.
Firstly let me tell you I have never worked in a power station but have worked with co generators in Hospitals and the like that work in unison with the grid. I will make this as simple as I can as I have no intension of writing a 100 page thesis or would anyone want to read it.
Imagine you had 2 petrol engines. 1 a v8 running at say 1200rpm and 1 a 4cyl doing 2300rpm but both producing the same hp at those revs. Now say through some clutch mechanism you suddenly joined them together as one. The result would be catastrophic at the very least,with broken crankshafts and bent con rods as a minimum. Now hold that thought. While joining 2 generator outputs together is totally different the end result is similar. For two or more generator supplies to run in unison 4 things have to match up. Voltage magnitude, Phase sequence, Frequency and Phase angle.
Large generators produce 3phase power. In Australia we call these, red phase,white phase and blue phase. All are 120 electrical degrees apart (phase angle). To see this on a scope it looks something like the ABC logo only 3 of them all intermingled but rotating 120deg apart.
The best way to describe how this works is look at the basic 3phase motor.
Around the stator of the motor are sets of winding in groups connected to each phase. Unlike a single phase motor where the current comes in on the active runs around the winding and then out the neutral (return) a 3phase motor has 3 actives but at any given time 1 of those actives is acting as the return.(without a return you would have no flow so no motion)In Australia this changes 50 times/second and is what we call the frequency and measured in Hertz. The rotation direction of that motor is determined by the sequence of each phase supplying the motor and return. eg RWB sequence might result in a clockwise direction. By simply swapping 2 phases at the motor to produce say RBW sequence will cause the motor to rotate counter clockwise.
Now can you imagine the result if we put 2 supplies together that were in opposite sequence or different frequencies ,voltages etc? we are back to our petrol engine senario.Motors would stall,reverse (or try to)burn out, not to mention what it would do to appliances with electronics and also destoy the generators supplying it all. Fortunately this cant happen as there are numerous protection devises installed at different points in the network to monitor and switch off if some event outside the set parameters happen. I use it only as a simple explanation as to why it take such a long time to get it all up and running again once the grid goes off line.
Will continue as time permits with your other questions

[mostlytossas]

Cont...
Why do power stations require input power to start generating?
Some can but most can't for variety of reasons. If the place is dead totally there is no power to start anything with,such as open motorized gas valves,run cooling pumps, run or monitor protection devises ,meters etc. excitate the generator field windings it just sits there as one big block of useless concrete and steel.

Why do they take so long to spool up?
They don't really, Torrens Island has I believe 6 generation sets. They would start or stop them as the load demands. While there is some lead in time required to say get them running they can see demand rising on their monitoring load meters etc and so should be ahead of the game for normal increases. I include your eastender effect scenario in this.

During periods of increased demand does this extra load cause the generator rpm to decay? No because it isn't allowed to. If the load became so great and all sets were running at maximum, load shedding would start occuring. Usually by turning off some suburbs for 1 hour each in rotation which has happened before in Adelaide. If load shedding was not carried out the protection devises would start disconnecting as happened with the interconnector.The rest of your question is answered in part 1
Why are the back up service providers secret?
I have no idea either and it is a disgrace!
Hope I have given you some worthwhile info be it in very simple terms.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Nomorecatering, to answer your question re-individual wind turbines. They are individual alternators turning out AC. This output is rectified to DC and transmitted to the farm substation. In the substation, the load is sensed, from here the power is converted from DC to synchronous AC at the one point for transmission into the grid. It is at this point where the "Software Issue" occurred.

Two lines were subsequently found to be ok and were returned to service without need of repair.

[PoppaJo]

Looks the the system is heading east.

Melbourne to be blown of the map tommorow. 120kh winds.

[Pinky the pilot]

Overheard on a talk-back Radio show on Friday morning; Apparently there is an Electrical retail business '..in Adelaide's north...' which specialises in 240V gen sets.

As of around 11.30 am Friday morning, their entire stock on hand had sold out and they have over 300 units on back order!:ooh:

Here in the Riverland area of SA, the local Honda Dealer has sold 3 Gen Sets (around the 3kva size)in the last four days! And has had several enquiries re larger sets.

As for me; I am making the appropriate enquiries.

[certifs]

It seems that wind turbines output frequency varies according to the rpm. How do they get a stable 50 Hz output with a constantly varying rpm? Some sort of frequency converter?
Like lots of this discussion Ozbusdrivers explanation is sort of, a bit right. There are actually a few different types of wind turbine configurations (search on types 1, 2, 3 etc) I dont know a lot about them as I only do work marginally related to any types of power generation these days. However, my understanding is that the earlier (?) types 1 and 2 were basically AC generators driven more or less straight from the blades (pitch control or blade shape controlling energy transfer from the blades to the alternator. Type 2 uses a wound rotor so can also have some electrical control. Later types 3, 4 (and 5?) do use various sorts of AC/DC conversion sort of like how Ozbusdriver describes. All the turbines types individually produce AC outputs (not DC) which is usually fed to a common AC bus for the farm as a whole. This bus is what is connected to the grid and to the grid the whole collection of turbines appears as one generator.
You will see comments that wind farms can't provide support to the grid (ie frequency and voltage support). This is certainly true of type 1 and 2, but the other types can (I think type 4 can actually be used as a stand alone generator, without being part of a wind farm bus).
I believe SA farms are mostly type 2 with some type 3. I would expect that future wind farms will only be allowed if they are the higher type numbers.
Which will then make some peoples heads explode as it seems one possible solution to make the SA system "more secure" is to build ... more wind farms!
(Of a suitable type, see, nothing is simple)


Why do power stations require an input voltage to start generating power.
My simple explanation. There are two reasons. One being to run auxiliary plant, the second being to synchronise the generator to the "system". Mostlytossas posts are a good basic analogy for starters. He and I might quibble about better ones, but they are good to start with (I did work in a power station for a good few years).


Why do power stations take so long to spool up, if they had steam pressure, wouldn't the generators spool up quite quickly? Do they reduce the steam generation in periods of low demand.
In simple terms it takes a long time to heat up a lot of water to make steam. A big boiler with big output will take longer. There may also be limits of rate of heating of eg. turbines if they are not up to operating temperatures. From dead cold, some power stations may take _days_ to get to full load.
Yes, steam generation is reduced at times of lower load. As a basic relationship, power out exactly equals steam in and power out is exactly needed to match the load on the system.


During periods of increasing demand from consumers, does this extra load cause the generator rpm to decay, reducing the frequency, if so why would damage occur if the frequency output of the generators falls below 47 Hz.
How does the system cope with instant demand increases when hundreds of thousands of people put the kettle on at the same time during a commercial break on a popular TV show. I think they call it the East-Enders effect. A TV show in the UK that was massively popular and they could predict the spikes in electricity demand from the Ad breaks.
If the boiler and turbine is up to temperature and operating at some level, yes, it is possible to dynamically extract a bit more steam out (like a big compressor receiver) to generate a bit more power in the very short term. This is how the Eastenders problem is overcome (and everyones kettles on all at once is still quite small compared to the overall system). Problem is, if you drop the pressure too much, wet steam can get into the turbine blading, which will destroy them in short order and the multi ton alternator with rotor spinning at 3000 RPM will leave the floor shortly after that.:ooh:
The 47Hz thing is not the problem as such (although there are problems because of it) Rather it is an indicator that other bad things are about to happen(like alternators leaving the floor). In a normally functioning system the turbines wont (cant) slow down as they cant change speeds due to being synchronised. If they have, then something is bad wrong with the whole system.
Note that .
As an aside the NEM pays power stations to be able to quickly pick up this transient load. These are some of the ancillary services that generators can bid and contract for in the electrical market (like the SRAS mentioned by gerry111 earlier). It isn't just about MegaWatts. The boiler of the power station in Port Augusta is (was?) a "once through" design (Benson boiler) so actually was worse than normal for being able to cope with rapid load changes consequently they couldn't provide this support and so couldn't get money in this part of the market.




Lastly, why do we have backup services that are secret (provider 1 and provider 2). This, to my simple mind is unacceptable.
I know who they are. Electricity industry participants would probably be able to easily find out who they are if they dont know already. I suspect it is a "commercial in confidence" contractual thing.


I hope the questions don't sound too dumb...

No (good faith) questions are dumb. Some answers may be. :)

Certifs

[Flying Binghi]

.....Meanwhile, in the time this thread has been running, China has opened up another new coal fired power station. In less then two weeks China will open up another new coal fired power station, and a couple more weeks after that another, and so on...


It were interesting looking through the auction catalogue for the equipment of the recently closed South Australian power plant. A lot of the equipment had Made in Australia on it. ...And down the hole we go thanks to idiotic green hysteria..:hmm:




.

[certifs]

.....Meanwhile, in the time this thread has been running, China has opened up another new coal fired power station. In less then two weeks China will open up another new coal fired power station, and a couple more weeks after that another, and so on...
.

Meanwhile in the real world China is closing old power stations, banning new ones and closing down mines.

From Wikipedia:

In early 2016 the building of new coal capacity continued at a significant pace with 406 GW proposed.[8] However, the central government issued directions in April 2016 curbing construction of new coal fired plants throughout the country.[9] This is in line with a moratorium issued by the National Energy Agency in 2015 banning new coal mines in China for a period of three years and closure of thousands of small coal mines.[10]

[Slezy9]

And down the hole we go thanks to idiotic green hysteria..:hmm:
.

Can you explain what you men by this? What exactly is hysterical? How,specifically, are the Greens responsible for us going down the hole? They have never been in government so I don't really understand how they can be responsible for anything?

I look forward to a detailed explanation of your argument :ok:

[Flying Binghi]

Via certifs:
Meanwhile in the real world China is closing old power stations, banning new ones and closing down mines.

From Wikipedia:

In early 2016 the building of new coal capacity continued at a significant pace with 406 GW proposed.[8] However, the central government issued directions in April 2016 curbing construction of new coal fired plants throughout the country.[9] This is in line with a moratorium issued by the National Energy Agency in 2015 banning new coal mines in China for a period of three years and closure of thousands of small coal mines.[10]

"From Wikipedia" :rolleyes: Your new to this aren't yer certifs..:hmm:

"China is closing old power stations" Considering China has a large number of old power plants it is no surprise that they is closing old power plants. Its like a car, it gets old and uneconomic to repair and gets traded in on the shiny new one with three times the horse power and full of bright new computer screens..:)

"banning new ones and closing down mining" certifs, you do understand that China is a command economy. All sectors of the Chinese economy 'suffer' constraints from time to time as the government 'adjusts' things. Power stations and coal mining is no different. I see they want more thermal coal mining now to act as a price 'adjustment'... amongst other things... NDRC loosens coal production restrictions - Global Times (http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1005471.shtml).

certifs, So, if as yer say it takes ten years to get things done in the coal station building game do that mean it will be ten years before they slow down the 'two a month' new station opening regime ? ...:)

certifs, the Chinese are fairly astute. Something tells me that their concerns of a slowing world economy, i.e., a slow down of world demand for Chinese goods, is likely the reason for their looking to slow the break-neck domestic development of the manufacturing sectors power supplies rather then the thinking of those afflicted with climate hysteria wishing it were something else..:hmm:





.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Certifs, that's how they run in Tassie. Methinks the alternators are multiphase...but they definitely feed into the substation as DC...can you imagine phasing more than 10 individual alternators spinning in marginally different wind conditions? ...my info is second hand, the brother does the contract work for comms for TasHydro.

That comment re 47hz...imagine turbine and alternator weigh in about 800tonne of inertia spinning at 3000 rpm...imagine that slows..or wants to slow by 6%. That alternator becomes a motor and the grid wants to drive it back to 50hz...800t spinning and the grid wants to drive it? ...but it only slowed by 180rpm? It may as well be 1800rpm out!

Re Eastenders, that excess load is normally taken up by hydro. Quick start...very much unlike random wind.

Seriously, if there was no interconnector and no wind generation, SA would have only suffered local load shedding! The great social experiment is a bust!

[Ultralights]

And down the hole we go thanks to idiotic green hysteria..

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/5/6/3/What-If-Its-A-Hoax.jpg

[OZBUSDRIVER]

The climate wars....King Canute had the right idea.

Sentient beings living in the intertidal zone with a life span of six hours and no history would come up with a similar theory about weather and statistics.

[megan]

Latest update

https://www.aemo.com.au/Media-Centre/-/media/9027D5FB69294D408E4089249F38A36D.ashx

Seems the cause of failure lies inAll SA wind turbines have a control system that takes action if the number of ride through events in a specific period exceeds a preset limit20MW was off line due to high winds >90kph. Thermal power remained connected unit the interconnector blew.

Still not known at what point the towers collapsed. Seems the "Australian" might not be so far off the mark after all certifsAlthough not confirmed information, AEMO notes there have been anecdotal references made to tornado weather conditions in reports relating to the SA events. It is not yet clear whether those conditions potentially contributed to the line faults or whether the transmission towers collapsed after the Black System.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Megan, unfortunately what the AEMO media release says contradicts what the report actually says.

The 'failure' of the wind turbines to 'ride through' faults has nothing to do with the fact that they were wind turbines - the issue is that their protection settings were set to trip after a set number of ride through events. In most cases, this setting was 2 and so event 3 tripped them out. Why was it set to 2? Most likely the manufacturers settings and nobody ever asked them to be set differently (makes intuitive sense - 3 phase failures likely = transmission line failure). A massive failure of the regulator and operator (AEMO) to understand how their network worked and what would happen if a total transmission line failure occurred.

So, yes, the tripping of all the wind farms was an issue but there could just have easily been gas generators supplying via those protection settings and the same result would have occurred. Of course there is no guarantee that if the setting had been higher that the event wouldn't have caused more ride through events and the settings tripped anyway - although AEMO have even suggested that wind farms should just keep on trying to ride through events - and bad luck if these events are destroying your turbines......

AEMO also have to answer as to why, with such a storm bearing down on them, did they have the Heywood inter-connector running at such high capacity and all the spare gas generation shut down? The answer appears to be price - it was cheaper to get power from Vic than start up more local gas generation (wind was already doing it's bit and operating in the 90km/h winds). So when the transmission lines all bent over (and it's still not clear if it was this that actually tripped out heywood or the loss of the wind farms - it was the frequency not the voltage that went haywire first) then there was no capacity in the network to step up supply to try and cope with the problems - thus Heywood went down and dark she went. A market operator paying attention to security of supply and not just price would have fired up the rest of the gas plants, scaled back Heywood and when it all turned to poo might have been able to recover. But it didn't - and surprisingly doesn't mention this in the report....?

Finally, the state having gone black, the wind turbines were still there and ready to generate (albeit possibly not for long as the wind speed was increasing) but with the state gone black, ALL of the contracted black start operators (those paid large sums of money by AMEO to be ready for this situation) failed to do so. Wind turbines are not paid to be black start capable (I suspect they may not be capable of doing so) and so they couldn't come back on line until AEMO managed to organise power back from Heywood gradually across the state to the turbines and allow them to sync and start supplying. Funnily enough, AEMO won't say who their contracted black start providers are......

So whatever AEMO are saying, an alternate story might be:
1. It's not clear what caused the massive frequency variation - was it the farms going off line or the towers going down (i bet it was the towers) that took out Heywood
2. The wind farms shut down as they were designed to but in a way AEMO hadn't considered due to their failure to understand the network
3. The loss of the transmission lines/wind farms guaranteed a dark state because of the %load Heywood was running at and the lack of contingency planning by AEMO who were too busy worrying about the price of bringing on (expensive) gas alternatives
4. Total failure by the operators contracted by AEMO to provide black start capacity

All of which doomed the state to blackout as soon as transmission lines started to bite the dust and ensured that getting the power back on was a long and complicated process. The role of windfarms/renewables was incidental but nice and easy for AEMO to blame when the alternative is to investigate and admit to your own failures.

[Flying Binghi]

Waffle; verb (talk)

Meanwhile...
"...China is investing massively in fossil fuel energy – not just at home but across the world, such as this project in the former Yugoslavia...": Shock: 'Green' China Investing Massively in Fossil Fuel Power (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/22/shock-green-china-investing-massively-fossil-fuel-power/amp/)




.

[certifs]

"banning new ones and closing down mining" certifs, you do understand that China is a command economy. All sectors of the Chinese economy 'suffer' constraints from time to time as the government 'adjusts' things. Power stations and coal mining is no different. I see they want more thermal coal mining now to act as a price 'adjustment'... amongst other things... NDRC loosens coal production restrictions - Global Times (http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1005471.shtml).

.

Yes, they are a command economy, that's why they can do that. You did understand that the article is talking about reducing the _initial_ restrictions, it wasn't about returning to the previous levels of coal production.

Meanwhile, the Chinese thermal coal consumption fell about 3% in 2014 and then again in 2015 (no data yet for 2016) while their economy continued to grow at more than 6%. Binghi, the word you need to edumacate yourself on is decoupling (https://www.iea.org/newsroom/news/2016/march/decoupling-of-global-emissions-and-economic-growth-confirmed.html).

[certifs]

certifs, So, if as yer say it takes ten years to get things done in the coal station building game do that mean it will be ten years before they slow down the 'two a month' new station opening regime ? ...:)
.

No, of course I don't. Its much easier to stop building than to start. That's why about 150 coal power station projects have been cancelled or put on hold in the US in the last 10 years. But when you make silly strawman comments such as these I wonder how much you do understand. The "building" of a power station doesn't begin when someone turns up to clear the site, that is quite late in the process.

For those interested, the process in Australia and other similar western economies (ie non command economies) goes like this:

Finance
A prospective builder has to think that the idea of building a new power station is a good one. They then have to do some basic market research to confirm they aren't mistaken, then they have to convince some financer that its a good idea and get them to promise to stump up a big wad of money when needed. You'll need a good part of a year to do this.

Environmental approvals
Since no one can plonk this stuff down any old place, there's a whole lot of federal, state and local government approvals to get done. This costs money and takes time. Never less than a couple of years. I notice the Carmichael coal mine is in its sixth year of this process and still not finished.

Ordering
No one in the world (even the Chinese) keeps major power station components on the shelf on spec in case someone wants to buy them. You will have at least 2 years lead time for major parts like turbines and step up transformers. If the boiler is coal its design will need to be optimised to burn that particular grade, so lead times might even be a bit longer for that.

Detail design
Once you know your major parts, from all the different suppliers, then all the bits, down to the simplest valve, pipe and motor must be designed to work together. 100s of thousands of hours of design work here. Probably a year or two in design work.

Now some of these things can overlap a bit, but if you can get all of that done in less than 5 years you will be lucky.

And then you can start clearing the site. The actual build time 2-3 years. Add on 6 months to a year for every additional unit in your power station because you need to stagger the work force you have you wont have enough skilled worked to build two, three or four unit simultaneously.

So, a single unit power station with a bit of luck about 7 years. Something with more than one unit 8+ years. Issues with approvals or long lead time equipment not being ready can blow this out past 10 years easily.


Australia was locked into this situation by the creation of the national electricity market nearly twenty years ago, long before renewables were even a remote thought.
A thermal power station is enormously expensive with no return on investment for the best part of a decade. And you can howl at the moon as much as you like but that is why no private entity will ever build another meaningful coal station in Australia and they will be few and far between in the rest of the western world. Gas fuelled boilers (not combined cycle) will follow the same pattern in years to come.

Certifs

[certifs]

Megan, unfortunately what the AEMO media release says contradicts what the report actually says.

The 'failure' of the wind turbines to 'ride through' faults has nothing to do with the fact that they were wind turbines - the issue is that their protection settings ....

Underneath the radar summarised it well. It takes a certain obtuseness to read the report and not understand what it says.


So whatever AEMO are saying, an alternate story might be:
1. It's not clear what caused the massive frequency variation - was it the farms going off line or the towers going down (i bet it was the towers) that took out Heywood


In fact it is pretty clear the faults preceded the farms going off, so it couldn't have been the farms causing the voltage fluctuations (what the ride through protection detected).
The report actually make the distinction that the farms went off in two lots. Those that had their settings detecting two line faults and those with settings for 6 faults. Even after the loss of the first group the system was still hanging together. The farms that were set to ride through more than 2 line faults did hang on for a short time. It was the fact there were so many faults in such a short time that bought the whole system down. UnderneathTR also gets it that the overlooking of the ride through protection constitutes a big failure by AEMO too.

One final thing. Something in the second report that people seem to be studiously ignoring. Table 4 shows the five occasions in SA where system disturbances caused a trip of the Haywood interconnector. Lots of finger pointing about the most recent one being "caused" by wind turbines. Total silence that three of the five were "caused" by the one and only coal power station in SA. Including one blackout about 60% of the size of the recent one. Weird, hey.

Certifs

[certifs]

Waffle; verb (talk)

Meanwhile...
"...China is investing massively in fossil fuel energy – not just at home but across the world, such as this project in the former Yugoslavia...": Shock: 'Green' China Investing Massively in Fossil Fuel Power (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/22/shock-green-china-investing-massively-fossil-fuel-power/amp/)

.

Wow, an article from a far right media source saying that the executive director of the International Energy Agency doesn't know what she is talking about when she quotes actual facts and figures.

Well, I'm convinced

Of course the Chinese may be playing some inscrutable oriental game and publishing false information (http://www.stats.gov.cn/english/Statisticaldata/AnnualData/) all over the place, but that's where the information about coal consumption and power station building comes from too. What a dilemma (for you).

Certifs

[Flying Binghi]

via certifs: #119, #120, #121, #122

Goodness! such verbiage..:)

Hmmm... seems many of the global warming profiteers are in a tizz about the Chinese funded Balkans coal power building program...
Ekotim - Electricity export ambitions may prove risky for Bosnia and Herzegovina, shows new study (http://ekotim.net/en/news-3/climate-change/309-electricity-export-ambitions-may-prove-risky-for-bosnia-and-herzegovina-shows-new-study)

Of note re article. The Chinese are not in the habit of loaning money for "stranded assets"




.

[Flying Binghi]

via certifs: ...Of course the Chinese may be playing some inscrutable oriental game and publishing false information all over the place, but that's where the information about coal consumption and power station building comes from too. What a dilemma (for you)...

Hmmm... My 'dilemma' seems to be i have an 'embarrassment of richs' in the referencing department..:)

"...China has unveiled a crash plan to increase coal capacity and usage by 20% over the next 3 years..."

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/07/china-announces-a-massive-20-increase-in-coal-by-2020/




.

[megan]

China is no longer regarded as a command economy, but one that lies somewhere between that and one that is completely free. The state retains complete control of those that it considers strategic.

https://www.quora.com/China-is-more-of-a-command-economy-or-market-economy-please-list-some-evidences