Choosing a Flight School - Career Path

[Earth4Mars]

Hello everyone,

I am going to Canada soon to pursue my aviation career as a pilot.
I am graduating university in Engineering.

I do not have that great experience about Canada as a country or the Canadian licensing paths, so I would like to have some insight on that to help me choose mine in a flight school.

- To work in Canada at first at a regional carrier (like Jazz Air or others) What am I expected to have under my belt?
- What are types of licensing are there and what they give as far as job position?
- I have come across many flight schools (Brampton, MFC, ProIFR, Langley..)
which is a better choice? how does someone decide?
- At Brampton, they offer IATPL, is it a waste? How can I unfreeze the ATPL (other than instructing)
- Why would someone go for a CPL (and what comes with it like IFR and Multi Engine) instead of an IATPL or an ATPL course? What does this make in finding jobs?


I know, too many questions all at once. I really am kind of lost and actually terrified about the whole process.

[Mostly Harmless]

Hi Earth4Mars,

I'm a little out of touch with the current training industry but I'll try to give you some honest answers. First off, someone is going to mention that you need the right to work in Canada, so a visa or a residency/citizenship. If that first one is looked after, then....

Here's a link to the licensing and what you need. https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part4-standards-standard421-173.htm

- To work in Canada at first at a regional carrier (like Jazz Air or others) What am I expected to have under my belt?

Unlike most of the rest of the world, no one gets hired into a regional or airline position right out of flight school (there used to be a few exceptions where companies that had Beech 1900's would hire straight out of college programs but I'm not sure what the status on that is at the moment). 3000 hours of time with multi-command and turbine time is the rough normal for getting hired into the regionals these days. So, expect to work for charter companies flying... just about anything from a C-172 to a business jet.

- What are types of licensing are there and what they give as far as job position?

Private: No Job. Commercial: Charter Jobs. Instructor rating (added on to your commercial): Instructing. Airline Transport Licence: Charter, Regional and Airline.

- I have come across many flight schools (Brampton, MFC, ProIFR, Langley..)
which is a better choice? how does someone decide?

I'm sorry, I can't help you out on that question.

- At Brampton, they offer IATPL, is it a waste? How can I unfreeze the ATPL (other than instructing)

We don't have a frozen ATPL in Canada. We call that an IATRA. You write a test that consists of half the questions from the 2 ATPL exams and this allows you to sit right seat in an aircraft requiring a crew of 2. You still have to write the ATPL exams when the time comes. I believe (going from memory here) that you can write both ATPL exams and they will issue you an IATRA that is only good for 2 years.... then you have to rewrite the exams. The one column most people have difficulty acquiring for their ATPL is Cross-country Night PIC. That's difficult to do when you are a first officer. No one here will groom you for command. For some reason, they will hire direct entry captains over your head for eternity in most charter companies... so expect to change jobs now and again in order to move up. Personally, I think it's a dumb way to run a company but it's practically SOP here, with a few exceptions.

- Why would someone go for a CPL (and what comes with it like IFR and Multi Engine) instead of an IATPL or an ATPL course? What does this make in finding jobs?

Nothing comes with a Commercial Licence. You have to add ratings on to it. But to be specific, you have to have a Commercial licence because you cannot just go out and get an ATPL. You require a minimum of 1500 hours of flying and a bunch of sub categories that must be checked off like a list. Since everyone is in the exact same situation, that is an equal footing in looking for a job.

I know, too many questions all at once. I really am kind of lost and actually terrified about the whole process.

It sounds like you are looking to throw yourself into a labour market you have not done a lot of research on. While most pilots have short memories and think that they have the worst working conditions ever, I can tell you that the market here is improving. When I started (no exaggeration at all) one needed 1000 hours just to find a job on a C-172. 3000+ to command a Navajo or a King Air. 5000+ to get onto a regional... that was usually a 10 - 15 year commitment to get to an airline if you were lucky. I regularly meet people who made the airlines in 5 years now, some in as little as 2. So, if you are coming here with dreams of leaving flight school and walking straight into an airline, I can assure you it's not going to happen. If you are coming here to fly a lot of small and interesting airplanes into places no person has ever heard of, then move into an airline with lots of interesting stories about how you survived the old days... then you'll do fine. One constant about Canadian aviation, it's a much smaller market than you think it is... everyone knows everyone. Getting that first job is far more about who you know than what you know. Networking is everything. So, I would suggest a college program for you so you have a network of other pilots right from day one. Good luck.

[Earth4Mars]

Hi Mostly Harmless,

Thank you for the informative reply.

These schools offer iATPL, that lets you do the exams and stay valid for 5 years. There is the cheaper option like Harv's Air, around $55k, that offer ATPL course and MCC course (195 hours)
Brampton offers ATPL with CRM/MCC and some training on the B200 for around 70k (205-215 hours),
Ottawa Aviation Services, gives ATPL, with bunch of other stuff, like CRM/MCC, B220 Virtual Type Rating, SOP, upset recovery and finish with 250 hours for 75k
Moncton Flight College offers iATPL with B200 operation and MCC, end with 195hours for 56k

All the way from PPL to CPL is straight forward for me (PPL, CPL, IFR multi, night, OTT VFR = CPL/IR) but towards ATPL, I get confused.
When they say ATPL course, what does that include?
Should it include MCC, CRM, both? Shouldn't they offer Jet Orientation Course? Upset recovery? I mean proper ATPL course (not just exams)

basically, if I go Harv's Air, will I be missing other bits like CRM?

It is really worrying to choose a school and find out that that school provided lower than usual gradation hours, or less materials against another.

[evansb]

Have you determined if are you legally eligible to work in Canada?

Secondly, there are hundreds of experienced Canadian-born pilots presently looking for work in Canada.

If you are not going to become a Canadian citizen, you will need a Temporary Worker Permit, which expires after four years.



http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/index.asp

You may want to post your question on Canada's aviation forum: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/

[Earth4Mars]

Yes, work in Canada i not a problem, I am getting my PRC. (Permanent Resident)

[evansb]

I almost forgot to mention that you should watch every episode of "Ice Pilots": Ice Pilots NWT ? Watch Online | Full Episodes on History (http://www.history.ca/ice-pilots-nwt/)

[evansb]

I also almost forgot to mention that I think the initial question is a poser positing the question for shameless commercial purposes..

[Earth4Mars]

Thank you guys.

Yes I am able to work in Canada (PRC status)

I have watched every episode of Ice Pilots.

No, I am actually trying to figure out which school.


I found this school as well MontAir Aviation in BC. anyone have an idea on this school?

[Mostly Harmless]

Hi There Earth4Mars,

Should it include MCC, CRM, both? Shouldn't they offer Jet Orientation Course? Upset recovery? I mean proper ATPL course (not just exams)

Well, I did say I was a bit removed. Nice to see you now have 5 years rather than 2.

Those are some interesting options. I am fairly sure that the ATPL portion is aimed squarely at the 2 written exams. MCC is not a requirement of the ATPL here, and CRM is taught during the CPL, as is upset recovery (but that's a pretty generic term so that could range from fight test standard all the way to aerobatics). Your chances of coming out of these courses straight into a Jet are very slim. It happens, but it's like winning the lottery. It might help you to have some jet courses, but it's likely you will have forgotten all by the time you are actually in one.

I think the best course of action from here is to contact the schools, ask them to clarify a little on what the course content is. Questions such as;
Do I need MCC and what are the advantages/disadvantages?

What do you mean by upset recovery? Is that (semi) aerobatics or just the usual manoeuvres associated with the PPL and CPL?

Training on a BE20, is that left or right seat? Do I come out with a type rating? A PPC? Will I be flying charter missions in the aircraft?

Do you have a charter division? Do you hire your own students?

Just an opinion here, so I might be off the mark but, I would give the Virtual B220 thing a miss. I don't think that's going to gather much attention on your resume.

One last thing to ask yourself. What kind of flying do you want/expect to do straight out of school? If it's float and bush, go with the school that specializes in that... if it's corporate or airline, look for a program catered towards that. You could ask about what schools cater towards which on AvCanada... but it's filled with a lot of trolls, so careful in your wording... perhaps avoid mentioning you are moving to Canada. Lots of sore spots there and for some good reasons. But you might get a more current answer from guys who are going through the process now.

Good luck and calm skies.

[Mostly Harmless]

One last thing about aviation in Canada. There really is no right and wrong path to where you want to go. It seems every person takes a different path and often wind up in the same place. It's the path that works for you.

[Earth4Mars]

Thank you for your reply. Very informative.

I have asked almost all schools in Canada from Moncton in the east to ProIFR in the west.
I don't have a solid answer and yes, all have their options.

There are the cheaper schools (Langley, Harv's Air, Moncton..) and there are the more expensive ones (OAS, BFC...)
I am aware that getting into a right seat jet straight out of school is not as easy as, lets say Europe. My direction would defiantly be corporate/airlines, like Jazz Air (I don't mean straight out of school).

I prefer a structured program that offers the most I can have, with a uniform to wear during my studies for the feel of it.


btw, how does someone find flying jobs? where do we have to look?

[MapleTopGun]

Thank you for your reply. Very informative.

I have asked almost all schools in Canada from Moncton in the east to ProIFR in the west.
I don't have a solid answer and yes, all have their options.

There are the cheaper schools (Langley, Harv's Air, Moncton..) and there are the more expensive ones (OAS, BFC...)
I am aware that getting into a right seat jet straight out of school is not as easy as, lets say Europe. My direction would defiantly be corporate/airlines, like Jazz Air (I don't mean straight out of school).

I prefer a structured program that offers the most I can have, with a uniform to wear during my studies for the feel of it.


btw, how does someone find flying jobs? where do we have to look?
It's harder in Europe, don't know where you got the idea it's easier, unless you want to pay Ryan air so you can fly for them.

[Mostly Harmless]

It sounds like what you are really looking for is one of the college/university programs. They would give you everything you are looking for.... but I have no idea who is doing those programs right now. I've heard of a few shutting down recently.

Perhaps some other readers here could point you to one of those programs.

[Ramjet555]

Anyone considering a program needs to look at how productive the organization is and how you are going to be treated.

Where I am, they provide dozens of executive class residence rooms for students close to the hangars, have more flyable days than anywhere else in Canada with facilities that would make most schools green with envy.