Cuba putting limits on US-based flight crews.

[patrickal]

Looks like the Cuban government is making the establishment of commercial flights to the US a bit more complicated than necessary.

Cuba won?t allow overnights for Cuban-American flight crews, American Airlines takes them off schedule | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/fabiola-santiago/article102111772.html)

[beardy]

Well it is their country.
Why no similar outcry on the limitations placed on female crew, or Israeli-Americans in Saudi, Yemen et al (rhetorical).

[triploss]

Well the US does require US citizens to have their passport with them when entering (albeit they might let them in, after some hmm'ing and haw'ing). Similar style of rule. Same story with Canada, and plenty of countries in theory require the same.

I've got no idea if you can renounce Cuban citizenship, but from what I've the US certainly doesn't make it easy (or even cheap).

[PAXboy]

Since AA want the expansion of their network (i.e. money) they will comply. Easy.

[pattern_is_full]

It's a fair issue to raise.

It's something that will have to be worked out through diplomacy, so as to cover all U.S. citizens of Cuban background equally, not just airline crew.

Therefore the Logan Act would make it illegal for American or any other airline to negotiate privately and separately in what is really a larger country-to-country issue of bilateral immigration procedures.

[Richard W]

How does this differ from the requirements that American citizens enter and leave the US on a US passport (Boris Johnson notoriously had a problem with that) and that Polish citizens (Polish citizenship can descend many generations) leave Poland on a Polish passport?

[pattern_is_full]

Richard - to use your analogy, it is like Poland requiring US citizens born in Poland to carry Polish passports to enter or stay in Poland. Even though they are now simply US citizens.

"No, no no - you still belong to us!"

From the US Embassy in Havana web site:

The Government of Cuba does not recognize the U.S. nationality of U.S. citizens who are Cuban-born. These individuals will be treated solely as Cuban citizens and may be subject to a range of restrictions and obligations. The Cuban government may require these individuals to enter and depart Cuba using a Cuban passport. Using a Cuban passport for this purpose does not jeopardize one's U.S. citizenship; however, such persons must use their U.S. passports to enter and depart the United States.

[triploss]

Richard - to use your analogy, it is like Poland requiring US citizens born in Poland to carry Polish passports to enter or stay in Poland. Even though they are now simply US citizens.

"No, no no - you still belong to us!"

From the US Embassy in Havana web site:
If those Polish citizens never renounced their citizenship, then yes, it's perfectly acceptable for poland to ignore their US citizenship.

Same thing for US citizens who might have gained other citizenships, the CBP will still make a large Hoo-Haa about it.

[Richard W]

So it's just the master nationality law at work coupled with (restricted) jus soli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli) and the impossibility of renouncing Cuban nationality if born there. (The Polish analogy is with US citizens of Polish ancestry who happen to have retained Polish citizenship - the 'passport trap'.)

[Jorge Newberry]

if the immigration people at EZE twig that you are an Argentine citizen while trying to leave the country with another passport they can get quite vexed

[ExXB]

So it's just the master nationality law at work coupled with (restricted) jus soli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli) and the impossibility of renouncing Cuban nationality if born there. (The Polish analogy is with US citizens of Polish ancestry who happen to have retained Polish citizenship - the 'passport trap'.)

Giving up US nationality isn't a cakewalk either.

[Heathrow Harry]

realtively straight forward these days TBH ... people are doing it all the time for tax reasons

[ExXB]

Apparently the waiting list for an appointment at the embassy in Berne is over two years ...

[PersonFromPorlock]

This looks like it invalidates any agreement on flights between Cuba and the US, since all American citizens aren't affected the same way (the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution requires that all federal actions affect all citizens in the same way). The obvious next step is for the flights to be stopped by a court order, concerning which, 'lotsa luck'.

[OldCessna]

It will all be moot after November 8th if "The Donald" gets elected.

He has proclaimed that all executive actions by present admin will be torn up the day he takes office.

The Cuban vote in FL has a big voice!

[G0ULI]

Just as a matter of interest, you cannot renounce Polish citizenship. Polish citizenship can only be withdrawn in exceptional circumstances, by presidential order, or something like that. If you are born in Poland, that citizenship and obligations remain with you for life.

You are free to seek citizenship and reside elsewhere in the world, but you may not thereafter be allowed to return to Poland without some penalty being enforced, including imprisonment.

[ExXB]

This looks like it invalidates any agreement on flights between Cuba and the US, since all American citizens aren't affected the same way (the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution requires that all federal actions affect all citizens in the same way). The obvious next step is for the flights to be stopped by a court order, concerning which, 'lotsa luck'.
This is action by the Cuban Government, not a US Federal action.

I seriously doubt than an aviation agreement would contain provisions regarding treatment of each other's citizens. Could happen, but not the sort of provision you would see in this type of agreement.

And then, would it apply to a Cuban born, Jamaican National legally working in the US?

Many people may have their ability to travel limited by their dual nationalities, or place of birth. I recall Greek dual nationals being cautioned on their travel to Greece as their other passport did not protect them from 'Military Service".

I'm sure AA can deal with this.

[PersonFromPorlock]

This is action by the Cuban Government, not a US Federal action.

But the US government is a signatory, and it's not allowed to sign agreements that violate its citizens' Constitutionally-guaranteed rights. So its signature on the agreement is invalid, unless the Cuban government changes its policies.

[ExXB]

The US government did not sign an agreement that violates it citizens' rights. It signed an air services agreement.

[triploss]

Just as a matter of interest, you cannot renounce Polish citizenship. Polish citizenship can only be withdrawn in exceptional circumstances, by presidential order, or something like that. If you are born in Poland, that citizenship and obligations remain with you for life.

You are free to seek citizenship and reside elsewhere in the world, but you may not thereafter be allowed to return to Poland without some penalty being enforced, including imprisonment.

This is completely wrong, most consulates even have a nice and simple description of how one can go about renouncing polish citizenship (i.e. submit an application, although you then have to wait for the polish president to agree):
Obywatelstwo polskie (http://www.montreal.msz.gov.pl/pl/informacje_konsularne/obywatelstwo_polskie/?printMode=true)

However it's worth noting that the obligations of polish citizenship are not exactly onerous, unlike those of the US or Eritrea (one of whom makes renouncing citizenship difficult and expensive, and the other makes it impossible).

I'm still interested in hearing whether Cuban citizenship can be renounced, but if these presumably Cuban-American dual citizens didn't follow Cuban laws, then they can't really complain.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

How does this differ from the requirements that American citizens enter and leave the US on a US passport (Boris Johnson notoriously had a problem with that)
My former MP also had a problem with that - something about needing to use his UK diplomatic passport for an official visit and the Americans not being terribly keen on that (I've probably got the details wrong, but point is, it isn't just Boris). Nothing that some seriously high powered people running around phoning each other out of hours couldn't fix, but it was still a hassle.

[Basil]

And I have to ask: Can you imagine in your company a staffing memo that says, “Please remember that those who are Israeli born should be removed?”
Yes, with one or two states, I certainly can.

[No Fly Zone]

As an early replier noted, "...well, it is their country!" I'm sure that Cuba and the U.S. will eventually get this worked out. A lot of Americans want to visit Cuba and Cuba certainly wants the dollars. Flight crews were singled out this time, but the problem involves far more Americans. Diplomatic processes are often slow - or worse -, but they two countries will get it worked out eventually!