Would you suggest being an airline pilot as a carreer?

[fox niner]

Hi all.

I've been an airline pilot for 21 years now. I guess I was lucky enough, but I do think that the future of our profession is not as bright as it used to be.

The High School my eldest kid attends, has asked me to come over and talk about being an airline pilot, as they are organizing a "carreer choice week" for the kiddo's. Doctors, engineers, government, army, etc. The eager guys and gals will get a chance to "ask anything" after you have held your personal intro.

So the question is: "would you suggest your airline pilot job to youngsters?"

I've been confronted with this question many times at parties/social events etc. and the last few years, my answer has always been "no". I do not suggest it, because:
1. Outrageous loans that you have to cough up, without a guarantee of a good-paying job.
2. Pay 2 Fly
3. Big chance that you end up in the Sand Pit/China
4. Becoming a system operator rather than a ship commander, as the airline decides for you when to go-around or that the runway is too short
5. Missing out all those b'days/xmas/weekends
6. Up all night, sleep all day
7. .....

So what would you do? Suggest your job at a high school or kindly turn down the invitation....?

[gtseraf]

attend the presentation, give a "warts and all" factual presentation and then proceed to debunk a lot of the myths about the "romance" of the job. There is no need to suggest the job but it is best to let the kids know the real facts.

[wiggy]

I'd certainly attended and as suggested by gtseraf I'd do an honest pros and cons description, including your "bullet points" (which seem good ones from my POV ) and leave it at that.

FWIW that line of reasoning/discussion (plus witnessing the reality) kept my kids out of the industry.....

[RAT 5]

So the question is: "would you suggest your airline pilot job to youngsters?"


Depends if you can guarantee who you will work for before putting your head in there noose.

[HURZ]

NO, as simple as that.
The good times are over and won't come back. The job can ruin your health and life depending which company you work for. The respect to the profession has gone and even Legacy Carriers are cutting down severely on T&C s for new hires.
Just my humble opinion��

[Guttn]

The straight forward, easy answer is NO, or even better NFW! But you can't just tell them that without digging a little deeper. You've been given a good opportunity to lay the facts down, so you might as well do so in a professional manner. You've been flying for some odd 20 years, so you might want to start things off and tell them why you decided, as a young lad, to become a pilot. How were things back then? What kinds of expectations did you have? What were you told by your parents, teachers, other advisors, friends, commercial pilots etc? And start telling about your career up until now. The good, the bad and the ugly. Talk about how fortune and luck plays a big part of getting to where you want to be, or how you find yourself working in places you never actually thought existed. How are your classmates from flightschool doing? I bet a large percentage of them gave up the dream after having spent a lot of money chasing it, and believing a lot of lies. How many are divorced due to the impact aviation and rostering has had on their lives? And have things improved since Sept 2001, or are we in a deep stall not too far from rock bottom?
I would be thrilled to have this opportunity! Go for it!

[A320baby]

I can tell lots of the NO answers will come from the old school or pilots that went the zero to hero route from one of the big schools which mummy and daddy paid for.

Myself (like many others) had spent many years working in the construction industry saving to fund my training. So I've experienced waking up at 5am for a 12 hour shift 7 days a week in winter.

I've also done my time working for the low cost earning my stripes, Now i'm sitting quite comfortably based in the UK flying long haul for one of the majors.

Would I do it all again? Hell YES i would.

[Clandestino]

Would you be able to make the same emphatic answer to question "Whether your yesteryear's route into aviation is feasible today", given the state of both construction and airline industry?

[galdian]

15-20 years ago pay for endorsement arrived in Australia, lots of outrage and "I'll never pay for an endorsement" being sprouted...yet operators still found enough bums to fill seats - however funded.
Now there's variations on the theme - but probably less outright "pay for endorsement".

Things and times change - adapt and understand or perish.

Those looking at a flying career TODAY can only deal with options available TODAY - stories of the "good old days" (and they certainly were) are just that - stories - and of no relevance in their considerations.

Recommend - no.

Discuss the pro/cons - yes, then those who want to be in the 20% who actually get up and enjoy going to work (and still occasionally feel they're ALMOST being payed enough on a sparkling morning takeoff) can give it a go if they desire.

For those who think the purpose in life is solely to be the richest stiff in the cemetery - fill your boots.

Cheers :ok:

[RAT 5]

I've also done my time working for the low cost earning my stripes, Now i'm sitting quite comfortably based in the UK flying long haul for one of the majors.
Would I do it all again? Hell YES i would.

If I could guarantee this career path, or better still direct into the major, then I might advocate it. The LoCo time is a good learning curve, perhaps; depends who it is, but will have some positives. It will cost seniority in the major, but will give you smaller blinkers as a pilot. However, wth no guarantees it's a risky and expensive leap to take: and it could put you onto the nomadic path for life. If the major is not guaranteed you need to be prepared to be an adventurer and go where is necessary. Wanting to be a pilot and being one is the simple thing; being locked into an employer you dislike will destroy you. Changing horses, perhaps a few times, might be the only escape to sanity with all the other stress factors that will entail. Ask the missus 1st.

[A320baby]

Please dont get me wrong, It was been a long painful road. I've travelled and lived aboard, spent 5 years living in Eastern Europe.

The way I see it, I was earning practically the same money now as I was when working in the construction, difference being back then I had to work 7 days a week to achieve that.

Yes I still enjoy coming to work, maybe that will change in years to come, who knows! But at the moment it still beats the construction site.

Cheers

[galdian]

RAT 5

I completely understand your thoughts but believe you've missed the point:

- SOME of the LCC's will grow into more "established" carriers with full service and will compete with legacy carriers;
- unless politics change and protectionism returns some legacy carriers will fail as others have already (or been absorbed/realigned/bankrolled, whatever).

The expectation that getting into a legacy is a "guarantee" for your future is, at best, uncertain looking ahead.

I read in the news constantly the expectation is that people should expect to change jobs "6, 7 times or more" in their careers - why should pilots/piloting be so special to be exempt from the future?

Not saying it's they way I'd prefer it - but that's the way it is.

Deal with today and the future - or perish.

Cheres. :ok:

[fox niner]

Thanks everyone,

I'll tell the kiddo's. They deserve to hear the real story.

[captplaystation]

For further "inspiration", read this thread

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/584030-anything-positive.html


FWIW, I always tell people, do it only, and ONLY if, you have a passion for it.

Otherwise, it is a pretty damned awful career choice for any intelligent person.

[underfire]

I would guess almost everyone has something bad to say about the career.

Look at almost any profession, doctors, nurses, soldiers, police, software programmers, factory workers, etc. How many of these do you pay outlandish fees for education, work long hard hours, work for free (interns), and miss holidays?
Being in the Army/Navy/AirForce is not a real treat, but people still line up to join.

Just how many careers are left that dont fit or match the 7 issues that you raise?

Explain the costs, which in reality, are pretty minimal considering what other professions require. One can join the Airforce and get paid to learn to fly.

Explain that they may be stationed elsewhere. Again, I doubt if this would not be a selling point!

Explain the hours, I really doubt very many people think this is a 9 to 5 job.

A system operator vs a ship commander? Have you noticed how the younger generation spends their time? You may not like the rules, but the automation certainly has made things better and safer.

Speaking of changing horses, how often does anyone stay at one employer these days? Staying at one place these days is more of a negative attribute than anything else. That usually only benefits the employer, not the employee. In programming, more that 3 years at one location means you are not successful at interviewing.

Explain to people how it works and let them decide.

[evansb]

Are you limited to talking only about airline flying? What about instructing, corporate jets, charter/medevac, aerial survey, forest fire suppression, crop dusting, bush flying, flying floats in the North West, or any kind of helicopter flying. It is a big field with many avenues.

[Mikehotel152]

I wouldn't recommend it, but I think an honest summary of the profession would include many positives. Even sticking to modern airline flying.

The training cost is slightly misleading. Let's assume that it costs £100k to get a job these days. Time from zero to hero is only around 24 months. Starting salaries are high compared with other careers. I know plenty of 21-25 year old FOs earning £50k. Those pilots will probably get their commands and £100k+ before they're 30 years old.

Conversely, a future doctor or lawyer will study for twice or three times as long and earn half the money upon qualification. By the age of 30 those professionals might be earning as little as a third of the money taken home by an airline Captain.

If you think I exaggerate, let me add that this taken from personal experience. What's more, I know that airline flying is far easier and much more exciting (though it is like comparing apples and pears) than the work a lawyer might do on an average day.

[Bokito]

I would, as long as you realise what you are getting yourself into.

Full-time it is not a sustainable lifestyle. So safe money when you make money and go part-time a.s.a.p.

Having a family is tough when you're not around for two-thirds of the month, but it greatly depends on the character of your better half. She might even enjoy not having you around all the time 😉

It surely beats going to the same office every day. But by the end of the day you're still a regular blue-collar worker. So either you safe money, invest and try to find financial independence from your employer or go into a different direction entirely.

Follow your passion. No matter what your take home pay will be. But be aware of the impact it can have on your social life.

My 2 cents

[Algol]

Lt7FvKkgl7o

[White Knight]

But by the end of the day you're still a regular blue-collar worker.

I don't know many blue collar workers earning over 100K GBP PA... Least not the fellas I drink a beer with:ok:

And my personal opinion after many many years of flying would be YES. I still enjoy the flying! Beats the hell out of office wallahering:D

[Capn Bloggs]

Staying at one place these days is more of a negative attribute than anything else. That usually only benefits the employer, not the employee. In programming, more that 3 years at one location means you are not successful at interviewing.

I'm not going to let that nonsense pass. That may be the case in bluntsville, Underfire, but not in the flying business. To suggest we change jobs regularly because that's what happens/is expected of earth-bounds, unless there is a damn-good reason to do so, is rubbish. I've seen a few "they've had more flying jobs than I've had breakfasts" in my time and I can see why. If you had a seat in Row Zero, I'm sure you'd understand.

[macdo]

Like many careers, if you take the long view it is still a good career if flying is really your vocation. Many professions have taken a hit in terms of lifestyle and remuneration and many have barriers to entry higher than aviation. In financial terms, you will eventually be well paid by most standards. Loans for licences will be paid down in much the same way and rate as a student loan.
What would put me off with the benefit of 25 years hindsight, is the shift work. I'd avoid any job where I had to work nights or weekends.

[RAT 5]

I'd avoid any job where I had to work nights or weekends.

I had a discussion/disagreement with my CP in a LoCo. He did not agree with my presumption that I worked shift work. Compensation? End of discussion!

[eduelp]

No.

Don't take me wrong it is still a good-ish job, but the personal sacrifices required for this job nowadays sadly outweigh the benefits.

[xollob]

I think if you give a balanced view of the highs and lows they can hopefully make their mind up - use the video clips from catch me if you can when he's an airline pilot....

Then turn around to the ones made on your iPhone of your colleague asleep in his chair at 36,000 with the wish you were here for my birthday dad card in the background, then pan to semi naked women in bikinis and the captain doing bodyshots off them at the pool bar and then that fades out to dreamy waves image and shows a crew in a hotel lobby at 35c sweating their asses off after a 15 hours day and they've been there for 2 hours because someone hasn't booked the right rooms again or the delayed crews hot bedding rooms haven't been done yet....

Finally as closing scene find a blockbuster Hollywood movie that shows the pilot being greeted by the family with arms thrown around them and amazing upbeat music, fade this out to the pilot doing his laundry, dealing with the biggest pile of post ever and wondering why his phone doesn't ring, then pan to his mates going wild down the pub and saying "shame Jim couldn't he here again, hey has anyone phoned him?, na he never comes out anymore either away or always too tired,oh and it's awkward because bob is screwing his wife because she's so lonely and he's so tired and grumpy and no fun anymore "......

Pan to Bob and Mrs Captains former wife getting married and captain with half a bottle of booze in a strip club looking at the tired card from earlier scene saying "wish you were here dad"

"no" by the way lol :}

ps - not my life but that of so many colleagues in the industry. I'd definately do a wall paid job if I had my time again and spend evening and weekends with family and see the kids every Christmas and birthday. Life's too short ! Self
employed plumbers and electricians, IT contractor take home more than I do and work their own hours with massive tax benefits.

[7Q Off]

Yes. Been in an office is not for me.

[pudoc]

I think it's a great job, but you also need to be lucky and hard working. Can't say I'd be too happy after a decade in a LoCo followed by China followed by working for another LoCo to get back home. But I'm lucky enough to work for a company that looks after me well and bases me where I want.

My days off are mine, I can turn up to work, fly and go home. No additional BS that being self employed brings. I watch self-employed relatives not getting a moment's peace for months on end, not a single day off.

Or my doctor friends spending 6-7 years at uni to get a lot less money than I do with worse shift patterns.

Think I'll stick to being a pilot!

[RAT 5]

I think it's a great job, but you also need to be lucky and hard working

Reflecting on my career I had to de more of the latter than the former. However, I was lucky in that my hard work paid off and a life of nomadic adventure ensued.
For the cadet, who is thinking of embarking on an expensive educational leap of faith, I would suggest the risk of being lucky is huge. Hard work might not cut it. (I know of people who are still out of work, can't get an interview 4 years out of flight school. Indeed, that delay is acting against them). The debt will still be hanging there and you wonder why did you do it.
If you can by-pass the luck with a sponsored scheme I'd probably give it a go and employ hard work to advance myself. If you encounter base luck it will be a very expensive mistake.

[JaxofMarlow]

RAT 5 - Yep, luck has a big part to play. Ask anyone who worked for XL, Viking, Primera (out of Ireland) and Monarch. One was bad enough but all 4! Now that I call luck.

[thrustless]

Answer: No. Period.


And to the thread opener: :ok: good choice, glad you're taking the chance and tell those kids something about the real world, because our job is one of those which is still rather over-glorified, especially among young people.


As a side note: I'm working for a big major airline in Europe which is widely considered as a very good employer and I'm not frustrated nor grumpy about my work life... but even here, it's just not worth it to jump in and persue a career as a pilot anymore. As entry hurdles for pilots become lower everywhere it's getting more tempting for those kids whose options are more limited anyway and I'd say though: just don't, stay away from aviation! The reasons have been elobarated enough on this forum, I guess.


Fly safe and fly happy - or don't fly

[S1 C4 206]

As a career NO.

Go to University, get a good degree, get a career outside of piloting , and then fly for pleasure.

That is the way I have steered my son who starts at Uni tomorrow.

[hec7or]

a big No
Would a pilot earning today's salaries be able to afford the £100 000+ to finance the kids through training and support them until they find a job with a budget airline?

Some people are being taken for a ride by this industry, and it ain't the pax.

[twtiger]

This is a great thread. Thanks for all the info. I've been contemplating the idea of becoming a cadet for a long time and looking at these threads always helps as an eye opener. So thanks again.

Then again im in my mid 20s, have a uni degree, worked in different sectors including finance and on a plane as cc. Its obvious that terms aren't as good as they are though i notice a pattern sometimes on here , that most of those that still enjoy the profession are those that are able to compare the career to previous careers on ground.

That being said when I was in Uni, my mentors also told me to choose another career from my studies. When i graduated and worked in other industries i'd say most of the elders i worked with always said to do something else although the money was good but not as good as it used to be. I mean even the old cc at my old airline would miss the good old days when they could smoke a cig in the galley and fly for just 50hrs a month and earn the same amount as today. I think its rare for anyone in any field to say things have improved from the old days, be it finance, airlines, restaurants etc.. I have yet to find a profession where people praise the t&c's unless u own ur own business and ur the boss of course ;)

So again thank you for all the eye openers, i think its great for ppl not to go in to the profession blinded by a movie or two. Same as you wouldn't go into wall street just because you watched "the wolf of wall street" i guess haha.

[Piltdown Man]

Overall, I would not recommend airline flying as a career. I'm now in my 24th year.

During my time flying two employers have ceased operations, I left another (that later went bust) that was run by a one-eyed criminal and my current employer, even though part of a legacy airline has slowly been winding the screw on our T's & C's. Shortly I will have to leave as I will not be able to continue my employment due to the terms that will be offered. This will suit me for a whole variety of reasons, one of which is that flying is not as much fun as it should be.

When I started, I didn't work too hard. Typically a seven-eight hour day, sometime less. But the view was good and I enjoyed the flying. But some parts of our current modern world were creeping in. The writing in small boxes that demonstrated that X, Y and Z had been done. The fear of the regulator and the constant fuel vs payload battle. But it was good flying.

Eventually I joined a largish regional airline and although many bits were amateurish, you were allowed to contribute and bring something of your own to the job, even if that was your enthusiasm. Over the course of time, I got to fly all over Europe in nice, brand new shiny jets. The operation is well run, legal and probably like the rest of you, I'm not even slightly worried about a ramp check. Anyone who checks us will be offered drinks and food. I also have the pleasure of flying with young F/O's (average age late 20's) and even younger C/A's. They are well motivated and enthusiastic and great people to spend time with.

But each of my colleagues started with a debt of about €150,000. They have been flying flat out (in our terms) and regularly up to six days a week. But they had no guarantee of a job when they decided to start flying. But remember, I fly with the lucky ones. Many of their friends have the debt and no job. Some end up as flap operators in Asia, others driving cabs in the wee small hours.

And if you do have a job, the current climate of competitive pressure means airlines will be making savings everywhere they can. And this reduces the quality of our lives. Like getting a cheaper cab company where the cabs are so dirty you wipe your feet on the way out. Security is also starting to grate. You can only accept so much theatre from the small minded individuals who dish out their daily dose of pointless and totally worthless antics. Then we have put up with the slots allocated by the muppets somewhere in Euroland. At least you know when you are flying two hours behind scheduie that the sky will be empty.

A lucky person entering flying now might get a job in a LoCo after 18 months after learning to fly. After five years of flying they will be close to a command and a few years after that be close to being burnt out. So they move to the sand pit and find it is even worse.

And we haven't even disussed the corrosive effect of flying on your family and personal life. You might be lucky and escape. But it's unlikely. You end up moving away from friends and family and our job (lates, earlies, week-ends, public holidays) makes it difficult to keep relatioships going.

So unless flying dramatically changes direction tomorrow, don't bother. Become a plumber or a train driver. It's not worth it.

PM

ps. When I retire I'm looking forward to NOT flying. I'm not queing, I'll not be touched up by a moron who couldn't get a proper job and I'll not pay for the privilege of parking in an airport car park. I'll happily stay at home and spend the money I'll save on more toys.

[wiggy]

PM

I suspect you might get some adverse comment to that from the "try doing another job"/ "living the dream" brigade but it's a good a summing up of how things have declined over the last 20 years plus, even at the bigger operators.

The big problem for anyone starting out now is that the slippery slope is only going to get steeper.

[RAT 5]

One of the biggest changes that has changed the outlook is:

years ago you could enter the profession with not too much cost for CPL, gain a type rating for no or little cost, earn a relatively good starting salary for an apprentice, be treated like a professional with reasonable respect, and be able to plot a career if you were competent.

now you need a 2nd mortgage to enter the profession, gain a type rating if you can afford to pay for it, start on an OK-ish salary for an apprentice but with huge debt, be treated like a school kid and trained monkey, have little idea where you all be living in 5 years, and have little chance of surviving till 65 at 100% of todays short-haul roster.

[Wirbelsturm]

30 years of flying now having had the privilege of flying most things fast, slow, fixed and rotary.

My view of the industry after all these years is tainted by the experiences of years gone past and the old duffers propensity to grumble that it 'ain't like it used to be'. The industry has changed, how could it not. However when I started flying the industry had changed then as well and I enjoyed it. It will continue to change into the future I'm sure.

My son's view of the industry, as he looks in from the outside, is somewhat different to mine and whilst, like most teenagers, he's reticent to listen and heed advise from the 'past it' brigade I have to admire his drive and enthusiasm to look at the positives within the industry as they exist today without the fogged gaze of looking back.

All circumstances are different. Everyones perspective is different. What some may find acceptable and exciting others may not. I personally don't think the job of an airline pilot is a viable career for someone starting out from scratch. This is however based upon my experiences of the changes wrought over the last 30 years. My son views it differently and is actively pursuing the requisites required to enter FPP programs. Despite my misgivings I can see the dedication (a word not often used in the same sentence as 'teenager' :) ) he has therefore I will support him all the way and may he have as fun and fulfilling career as I have enjoyed.

Cheers

Wirbs

[wiggy]

Wirbs....good post.

Whenever I'm approached on the topic my advice is look don't look at me and my lifestyle,or aspire to my T&Cs, cos in the blink of an eye they'll be gone. I tell youngsters contemplating the career to go look at the T&Cs at the likes of Norwegian, because that's at best where the managed (or not) decline in T&Cs is taking everybody if the CEOs get their way.

For those who don't think it can happen at the Big Airline they aspire to after a few years at a LoCO... at BA the legacy cabin crew contract (very nice) ended overnight and was replaced by something very very different. The only thing stopping them doing the same to pilot T&Cs is the union...and they're slowly giving ground.

but anyhow good luck to your son...

[TacomaSailor]

I'm a little confused by all NO responses I've read here. I am not a pilot but have two friends who are Captains on major US airlines. We spend a lot of time visiting here in the marina, drinking beer, sailing and discussing life. 40-some years ago I was accepted into the United Airlines ab-initio program but then chose to pursue a career with those new gadgets known as computers. I pester my captain friends with endless questions about life as a pilot and their choice of that lifestyle compared to my life of traveling the world as a computer geek.

They both love their jobs and are enthusiastic about the work. One is a very junior captain who seldom gets anything he bids. The other has five years as a Captain and can hold some of his bids.

They both look forward to work and also the many interesting opportunities for travel. They are both 20-year US military fast jet veterans who also served many years in the reserves.

Is life for a captain at a major US carrier that much better than for the other pilot jobs I read about here in this thread?

[McNugget]

Tacoma,

It's swings and roundabouts. From shortly after the turn of the century (9/11) until recently, it was quite the opposite.

US Legacy carrier pilots took enormous cuts and concessions, so went from being some of the best major airlines in the world to work for, to some of the worst. Their pay was dwarfed by the likes of BA, Lufthansa, KLM, CX, EK etc... As you know, multiple bankruptcies leveraged the workforce into the corner.

Thankfully they are now reversing that trend, and are making up for lost ground. In my opinion, where the US major carriers have beaten the rest of the world is the rostering practices. While you'll hear moans from the beneficiaries of the contract, they are head and shoulders above the rest of the world..



I think the current thread, on a Europe-centric message board is a delayed version of what happened in the US in the last decade. Things are slipping and morale is in the dumpster.

What you think of the industry or your employer is one thing, and there are plenty of opinions and differences there. What happens when the door closes and you call for push is largely the same throughout the industry, and it is still a superb way to earn a crust. We just wish the crust would stop shrinking, as it seems to have on your side of the Atlantic (for now).

[wiggy]

US Legacy carrier pilots took enormous cuts and concessions, so went from being some of the best major airlines in the world to work for, to some of the worst. Their pay was dwarfed by the likes of BA, Lufthansa, KLM, CX, EK etc... As you know, multiple bankruptcies leveraged the workforce into the corner.
.

Must admit I'm a bit surprised that you think European salaries dwarfed US ones for a while but you're better placed to comment. I'm certainly aware of individuals in the States whose pensions were torpedoed during the downturn.

I think the big advantage you appear to have in the States is that your organised labour (labor..) is more cohesive and is effective across all the 50 states. In Europe we're faced with multiple national pilot associations, multiple sets of national rules governing what unions can or cannot do, and above all trans- European airlines who are able move their assets (including workforce) around the EU to prevent or at least very much reduce the impact of industrial action ( e.g positioning crews/aircraft in from country A to break a strike in country B.) There's also the impact of "pay to fly," which I believe hasn't crossed the Atlantic yet(?).

The company I work for was well in the black recently as it's own fortunes improved yet that didn't translate into jam for the workers, we are already into another round of belt tightning which manifests itself everywhere from pressure on rosters, uniform provision, through to the standard of slip hotels, especially for short haul. IMVHO most of the erosion of T&Cs in Europe is the result of calculated move by the CEOs rather than a consequence of a temporary financial downturn... As a result personally I can't see any end to the steady erosion of T&Cs in Europe, but I have been known to be wrong....

[McNugget]

'Dwarfed' would perhaps be too strong a term, but a 40-50% pay cut, coupled with the collapse of the USD against the GBP (2:1) and EUR (1.7:1) meant that a long haul BA skipper on a GBP140k (US$280k) - in currency terms probably upwards 30% more than their US counterparts who struggled to break 200k. This, of course, on top of having pensions worth millions stolen.

Now with the advent of huge profitability and new labor(u)r contracts, most wide body US legacy carrier captains (the vast majority being on top tier year 12 pay) are making about $300k (GBP 230k) under 'normal' rostering conditions, save for those who choose to work more or less). At current exchange rates, they're back out in front.

You're right that cohesive labour has been the backbone of the resurgence in pay rates. It's been hand in hand with the supply/demand see-saw swinging violently back into the pilots' favour. Unfortunately, on both counts, it doesn't bode well for Europe - where multiple jurisdictions make cohesion impossible, and a glut of pilots.

I'm not in the US, but have an active interest...

[wiggy]

Those numbers are interesting, thanks.

[McNugget]

I think pay to fly was likely on the cards in the US at one point. The industry was atrocious during the financial meltdown. Colgan, and later the retirement wave/hiring boom took care of that threat.

As you pointed out, in Europe it seems to be a long term strategic campaign against Ts & Cs. In the US, it is far more reactive (feast/famine).

Hopefully labour there is protected somewhat from the next economic wobbles, due to sheer retirement figures coming down the pipe.

[TolTol]

Big NO from me also. Anyone know what impact this flying is having on our long term health? Many of the older pilots I see in work have aged a good deal worse than people I know outside of aviation. Guess it also depends what sort of flying your doing and who your working for !!

[spitfire_sl]

Americal Pilots association have a series of videos relating to the perceived pilots shortage, and one piece of it is especially relevant to this discussion. It shows with data and statistics why less students in the states are choosing the pilot profession.

Although the video is more relevant to the American market, I assume the same principles regarding return on investment will apply to the European market.

It seems less and less people in the states are choosing to join this profession, and it would be interesting to know the same is true about Europe.

watch?v=0cb_PNjgKHk

[TWRS2]

Ive thought about this before. At the moment I would, however I would strongly suggest not getting into huge amounts of debt for it.

Ive never questioned my sanity before i started with a major airline.

[WillyPete]

It seems less and less people in the states are choosing to join this profession, and it would be interesting to know the same is true about Europe.


Spitfire, at a recent careers day at CTC in Southampton, one of the reasons they gave for the increased demand was a lot of pilots demanding part time contracts.
One of their advisors put it plainly to me (when I asked about whether being older was a detriment) and stated that with the current rate at which pilots graduate to the command seat left little for pilots to aspire to after a relatively short time.
Good pay and little requirement to work hard for advancement (purely based on time in service) meant that many preferred part time as their first decade pretty much paid for their mortgage and pension.

[Direct Bondi]

The current status of this profession with one particular airline:-

A shelf stacker employed by Poundland has more employment rights than a LGW 787 Captain flying for Norwegian.

[wiggy]

WIllyPete

Good pay and little requirement to work hard for advancement (purely based on time in service) meant that many preferred part time as their first decade pretty much paid for their mortgage and pension

Putting it politely If you believed all that then I've got a bridge I can sell you....

There's no doubt that is what CTC would like you to think (they are trying to sell you an expensive course) but I suspect you might get some feedback from others on that comment, especially about the mortgage (I assume you talking about house buying, rather than training loans) and are CTC seriously implying after 10 years pension contributions at an airline (even BA and Virgin) you've put enough in to stop contributing? The pay may be good but it's not that good.......

However TBF your CTC advisor may well be right on one thing - there's certainly been an upsurge in demand for part time contracts (in various shapes and forms) at some companies but I'd strongly suggest from conversations I have had with those that have gone part time (as I did a few years back) that it has much much more to do with factors the CTC advisor chose not to tell you about: The rigours of current rosters, fatigue, conflicts between family life and work, and sometimes just a need to get the work life balance back to where it should be.

It's certainly much more likely to be one of those reasons than waking up one morning after just ten years as an airline pilot and realising you are rolling in so much cash you hardly need to go to work anymore....

[MaverickPrime]

Following on from WillyPete and only considering the financial side of being a pilot; can I float an idea?

I would suggest that there would be a higher percentage of disillusioned pilots in the S/SE of England factoring in cost of living.

For example, a £100k/yr Captain would be a 'rich' man in some parts of the UK(and no not just the bad parts), as that is still very very BIG money in some parts.

There are new build 3 bed, detached houses, with a garage in a country village in my part of the world selling for £145K, good luck getting a similar deal for twice the price in say Gloucestershire. They are 25 mins drive from my local airport where RYR, J2, EZY and TCX are based.

Spelling it out, £100k/yr would easily pay for a house and family in some NICE parts of the world.

Not suggesting that relocating your entire life is/or should be an answer, just think I'm spotting a trend!

[RAT 5]

Airline pilot career path.

21 years old. Shell out €150,000 for CPL & type rating.

With luck join a LoCo soon after flight school: unless on a 'scheme'.

Graft for 4 years.

Achieve command.

Graft another 2 years in LHS.

30 years old. Bale out and go to China as captain.

Graft for 10 years at U$300,000pa.

40 years old, retire, go live like a king is some sunny clime and buy a small a/c and fly for fun in paradise. Perhaps even work as an island hopper pilot with Netflix and your 60" flat screen in your beach hut with your yacht moored in the bay.

Make sure only 1 wife max.

[wiggy]

Maverick

Not suggesting that relocating your entire life is/or should be an answer,

There are some who have done that :ok: for all the reasons you state, and certainly you need to think hard about factoring that in before taking that seemingly more lucrative short haul job at a London/SE UK based outfit.

Of course relocation doesn't solve the pension problem, especially given the way goalposts have moved over the last few years in the UK it's a brave person who stops contributing after 10 years......

[aussiesteve]

Make sure only 1 wife max.

haha. Top tip right there ;)