Easy Strike?

[fmgc]

Holidaymakers face flights chaos as easyJet pilots plot strike action (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/10/holidaymakers-face-flights-chaos-as-easyjet-pilots-plot-strike-a/)

I think Balpa are lacking the chops to have a strike, I think that they hope most of the pilots to go for the middle ground:

It is understood that pilots are being asked to vote on whether or not to take action short of a strike and on industrial action that includes going on strike.

How much would the "short of a strike" do?

[fmgc]

But offering the middle ground I guess hoping that most of the pilots go for that so they don't have to go for the full blown strike.

[RAT 5]

Is that the short pregnancy that is not the full blown to termination pregnancy?;)

Just to be clear:

BALPA is considering a strike in one UK airline "..... for industrial action over complaints of rising levels of fatigue that union officials insist risk “serious health and safety concerns”.

This is a UK airline in the British airline industry that is operating within EASA FTL's that are in force by all UK airlines. I admit I do not know the in-depth internal rostering practices of ez, or other UK airlines. I hear there is great opposition to the new EASA FTL's. Do these problems exist in any other UK airline? If so, why not a class action against EASA? Is ez really the correct and fruitful target?
If it is the case that this has come about after a year of discussions it is a sad refection on one or both parties.
When I used to have disputes with managers about working practices I always had a couple of suggestions to present whereby the productivity was equal, or even better, but in a more humane manner. A win win. They were supposed to explain why they were unacceptable. Usually it went in one ear and straight through. There would have been too much loss of face to have agreed. And that was the stumbling point. But don't forget the oft quoted addict that "my door is always open for suggestions." Shame the mind wasn't as well.
If this is indeed a lifestyle rostering issue then complaining will never win the day if it's legal. If an alternative scheme can be offered then the touchy/feely orange cuddly management will have to justify rejecting it. Is that the case; from the inside?

[core_dump]

RAT, they said "short OF a strike". The pregnancy analogy does not hold up. Actions short of a strike could include malicious compliance, etc.

[fmgc]

For me this is far too late. Balpa have let EastJet ruin the industry.

The CC in the mid 2000s refused to do anything about Flexi Crew and that's what let the rot set in.

I watched the then CC chairman let himself get completely stitched up by the BA CC at an ADC. Seeing the CC Chairman of the 2nd largest pilot workforce in the UK behave so ineptly I knew then that the industry in Europe was doomed.

[CaptainProp]

Never going to happen.

Move on folks, nothing to see here...

[RoyHudd]

Very wise, CaptainProp. Don't be so sure. EASA FTL's are causing AME's to strike, due to the disinterest of the CAA in the burgeoning fatigue problem in short-haul carriers. (Prop short-haul does not generate the problems that jet short/medium haul does, for a good many reasons.)

So in our little UK aviation world, we find doctors talking about striking. Don't tell me that can't happen. In my own company, fatigue sickness has far exceeded previous records. So striking is on the agenda, but withdrawal of labour is happening now on an unprecedented scale.

And just how big are easyJet on a scale of things? Bigger than BA, bigger than Thomson, Thomas Cook, Monarch, and far far bigger than any turboprop airlines.

[Capt Scribble]

The contract I signed up to says that I can be rostered up to CAP371 limits. Now EASA limits are in force my hours available for work have increased with no apparent change of contract or increase in salary. I recon the Company are able to get an extra days work out of me in 7 days and sometimes are doing so. This summer has been the busiest for some time.

[Council Van]

Easyjet said pilots' workloads were set by the Civil Aviation Authority.
It's a limit, not a target. However pilots have to report fatigued, and if they are fatigued then do not be pressured by crewing to work.

The airlines have to take action if rosters are proving to be fatiguing. If you do not go off fatigued then they will keep screwing you into the ground.

[Bigpants]

Whether you go on strike is academic, what the industry needs is for pilots who are fatigued to say so and not fly. That requires a bit of backbone, as does going on strike.

[sewushr]

There does seem to be a bit of 'push back' against some of the current rosters by both CC and pilots.

I was delayed on a flight out of Amsterdam a couple of weeks back (AMS based aircraft and crew). Aircraft arrived on stand 5 minutes late on the previous sector from Basel, leaving 30 minutes to turn round for the flight to Gatwick (quite feasible when using the low-cost 'H' gates at Schipol). Pax were called to the gate before the aircraft was on stand, but left queuing for 30 minutes, then at the scheduled departure time, the gate staff announced there would be a delay as CC 'had already had a long day and needed a meal break'
I was told that some EZY pilots are insisting that breaks are taken, even if this means delaying the flight.
I'd not come across this before

[gtseraf]

excellent move. I wonder how the office staff who make these schedules would feel if their office schedules did not allow them to take a lunch break or tea break.

[tubby linton]

(a) During the FDP there shall be the opportunity for a meal and drink in order to avoid any detriment to a crew member’s performance, especially when the FDP exceeds 6 hours.
ORO.FTL.240

[Wageslave]

there would be a delay as CC 'had already had a long day and needed a meal break'
I was told that some EZY pilots are insisting that breaks are taken, even if this means delaying the flight.
I'd not come across this before

Thank God there are still some Captains with enough integrity to ensure the welfare of their crew. Those poor cc work without a break for hours on end esp on short flights and often have no time to eat.
Bravo the Captain!

[RHS]

The problem is airline managers view squishy human beings as computers and machines, because that's what their management textbook gave them as a toolset.

Unfortunately while the Autopilot is still good to go at the end of 9 hours of flying over 3 sectors, I, am slightly tired. Especially on day seven.

EASA has been a joke. If you don't work for a reputable company, you're toast. Incidents of Stress and Anxiety related illness from colleagues at my old airline is through the roof. Stress and Anxiety a symptom of fatigue? Funny old thing!

Every airline reporting increased sickness. That's just lazy work shy pilots. Not the new stupid work rules.

Then throw in to this toxic mix variability of schedule and the effect that has on home life. Plus the general treatment from an anonymous "crew scheduler" and the situation is untenable.

What do the CAA do?

I for one applaud Easy pilots. Go get 'em, and if it means some people can't fly to Malaga for £30 then so be it, because flying to Malaga doesn't and shouldn't cost £30.

[fokker1000]

RHS, I think you are absolutely spot on..

I would bet my bottom dollar/euro that the damned committee that formulated these new FTLs didn't ever damned well work them themselves to see how dangerously tired they felt after 6 or 7 days flying..

[RAT 5]

(a) During the FDP there shall be the opportunity for a meal and drink in order to avoid any detriment to a crew member’s performance, especially when the FDP exceeds 6 hours.
ORO.FTL.240

Once again a classic example of the reality of the Ops manual saying one thing, for the digestion of the XAA to sign it off, and what happens everyday on board. I used to fly for an operator that had such statements in the manual and then had 5 short sector days with no time what so ever for other than a grabbed glass of water and a biscuit as the CA's passed in & out of the galley doing full service 5 times in 45 mins each. That, plus the rapid turnaround with full security check, and 8 hours passed with no significant sustenance. XAA's really do need to wake up and take their heads out if the sand.
This topic about how poor on board working conditions are compared to ground jobs, and as directed by the 'workers' directive' has been debated for 20 years with no progress.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Rhs - every airline reporting increased sickness? Your talking every airline in Europe? Not mine UK AOC. Remember most EU airlines had bee n working to near similar limits under sub part Q
Meal break - what was in CAP before?. The EASA regulation now supports the Commander making that (sound) decision
Roy Budd is the extra fatigue due to EASA or other factors, increased aircraft, attrition etc
Is it the increased duty hours or the no early rules or increased FDP on earlies or a combo of all and some pi££ed off (hard working) pilots looking for a pay rise?

[tubby linton]

Personally I would say pay doesn't come into it. The most telling part of EASA FTL for me is that a day off is now called an extended recovery period. During my days off that is all I am trying to achieve and having to actively manage my sleep patterns to try and prepare for the next working block. Actually enjoying your day off or doing anything meaningful at home is not possible so having extra cash is not a factor. Long earlies are what I find difficult to cope with, and then on my extended recovery period my body still wants to get up at 4am which disrupts my sleep patterns.This can last well into the next working block , which may include long afternoon flights such as Cyprus.
I have had fatigue induced sickness twice this summer and also have reported fatigued on several occassions. The company see fatigue limits as a rostering target and continually press to test with the work patterns, and this is with a reasonabe scheduling agreement.
I wish the Easy pilots luck with their industrial action but until other european carriers start reporting similar problems then EASA will do nothing.

[Gypsy]

Mr Angry - It has nothing to do with pay.

[R T Jones]

Tubby Linton sums it up very nicely.

Can I also add that this is not about pay, it is about fatigue, safety and sustainable working rosters so that someone joining in their 20's is able to fly a full time career at easyJet if that is what they would like. Not feeling like the only way to survive long term is go part time.

[RAT 5]

the only way to survive long term is go part time.

Been there, down that. No wife, or only one, no kids = possible. And it can be fun. Otherwise????

[RHS]

Mr Angry, you miss my point.

Please tell me you AOC so I can promptly apply? And I work for one of the reputable big boys who does at least try to help their staff, and even I have seen an increase in fatigue under EASA. It is simply unsustainable.

EASA was written to give the crew a say, and emplace extreme limits. In reality. The airlines use EASA as a target, and try calling in sick. I have multiple friends who have received phone calls from senior managers demanding they explain the personal circumstances at home, asking deeply prying questions, challenging their decisions about discretion, all in the name of "helping" the employee deal with the fatigue issue.

EASA was written in some wimsical, fairy tale world of wonderful airline managers. It does not translate.

So once again, good on the EZY guys and gals. Best of luck!

[JumpJumpJump]

Well done to the journalists and editors at the The Sun.... They have gotten to the real reason for the strike... Easyjet pilots simply wish to bring misery to families over the October School Break.

incidentally, this sort of ****ty journalism can actually work in the favour of those wishing to strike as this will bring rpessure on the airline to resolve the matter quickly as passengers will be nervous about booking.... so, as I said.... Well done the The Sun

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1762662/easyjet-pilots-plotting-strike-action-to-bring-misery-to-families-during-october-break-from-school/

[fokker1000]

Hey there Purley boy, you clearly just wanted a reaction.
Not much point in trying to get a pay hike if you're dead because of a fatal error due to being knackered, or getting a fatigue related condition that cans your medical.
I dread to think how many crew have had car accidents or near misses whilst driving home after day six or seven. Sadly, I fear there will be many more.
More hours at work, more non flying admin being shovelled onto crew to do.. Sadly the regulators don't appear to come along to observe the long fatiguing flights, or join us for a pleasant little night IBZ etc
It ain't going to change I'm afraid. I wish I could escape.

[tubby linton]

Be grateful Fokker that you are the north side of forty and are not going to have to do this for almost forty years. I very much doubt that a cadet joining now in their early twenties will still be flying in their late fifties.
It does bring into question the whole model of low cost airlines and cadets. To start, a very large expenditure for the training plus a student loan for a degree to pay off when they really want to be saving for somewhere to live. Then having been trained, month after month of hard work with no social life ,then a command and more of the same ,and then finally burnt out and hopefully not so medically damaged that they cannot find alternative employment.
Trying to reinvent yourself in your late thirties or early forties with a new career will take some planning or a very expensive loss of licence policy. I can see a bubble developing in the next ten to fifteen years of medically unfit pilots who have been run into the ground by low cost flying and EASA FTL. Meanwhile the airlines will have made large profits and paid their senior management huge bonuses. If you work out an escape plan please send me a pm.

[Lucky Strike]

One of the contributers to this thread is ex, perhaps current, crewing/rostering of known (to me) anti pilot views. But to move on..

Andrew Haines, CAA Chief Exec, on record: "There is no doubt fatigue is an issue but, at the moment, the evidence we need isn't there, because pilots don't tend to report it".

The reasons why pilots don't report fatigue have been posted previously; as have the CAA approved Doctor's (AME's) concerns.

But to those non industry readers of this thread; the industry regulator is concerned about fatigue in pilots, the Doctors who monitor pilots health and have a legal responsibility to the regulator to monitor pilots health are concerned about fatigue. Easyjet, one of the largest UK/European airlines, could potentially be on strike becasue of fatigue concerns.

As ever in the aviation industry/service industry, until the there is an incident involving loss of life on the scale of multiples, nothing will happen.

[UAV689]

I have heard (rumours) of lads at work calling in fatigued.

A few days later they are summoned to a meeting and ordered into changing their sickness reason from fatigue to something else so the authorities dont need to be informed....

Like i said rumours, but no smoke without fire i say.

[413X3]

That type of meeting should be recorded with your phone in your pocket and accidentally leaked to the media (but real media, not the S*n)

[RAT 5]

Imagine the rosters & working hours of UK train drivers being changed/worsened without consultation & agreement of the main union? Highly unlikely; same in France, Germany, Italy. It would not be enforceable. If they were imposed (see junior doctors) then the kick-back would be serious. So where was ECA while this fiasco was being developed in some darkened room deep in the bowls of Brussels? Where are they now? Why is ez the pathfinder in this campaign? What is the point of ECA if they are not banging the drum on this? It is an Europe wide issue for the industry. ECA is the Europe wide union/association for the industry. EASA is on the other side of the table for the Europe wide industry. Why are they not in discussion and agreement before this mess?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Tubby / Gypsy simple question simple answer - thanks.
Lucky Strike - anti pilot views! My post mentioned ( hard working) pilots and gave information on meal breaks that EASA bought in and CAP371 ( from Douglas Bader days) didn't have. Yes I like to go fishing but if you take the bait doesn't mean to say I'm anti. I suspect a lot of posters know me might disagree with your comment.
As RHS states there are some UK AOC's who have worked hard with the CAA, Pilots, Union and are (trying) to mitigate some of not so nice EASA limits by having agreement, best practice, training etc. So at my AOC the impact was negligible, the transition smooth, the roster patterns in my view better ( for the crews not the airline) and back to my original comment sickness levels the same!
So accepting I might also have taken RHS's bait please don't tar all airlines with the same brush��

[RAT 5]

The reasons why pilots don't report fatigue have been posted previously;

And one of those might be zero-hour self-employed pilots. No fly no pay.

[RHS]

Tubby / Gypsy simple question simple answer - thanks.
Lucky Strike - anti pilot views! My post mentioned ( hard working) pilots and gave information on meal breaks that EASA bought in and CAP371 ( from Douglas Bader days) didn't have. Yes I like to go fishing but if you take the bait doesn't mean to say I'm anti. I suspect a lot of posters know me might disagree with your comment.
As RHS states there are some UK AOC's who have worked hard with the CAA, Pilots, Union and are (trying) to mitigate some of not so nice EASA limits by having agreement, best practice, training etc. So at my AOC the impact was negligible, the transition smooth, the roster patterns in my view better ( for the crews not the airline) and back to my original comment sickness levels the same!
So accepting I might also have taken RHS's bait please don't tar all airlines with the same brush��

My Bait? Honestly, I find it hard to imagine you work for an airline where life has improved under EASA?

Lucky strike sums it up. Unless you have worked 7 straight days of Lates to earlies, in an enclosed, noise environment, with terrible food, at altitude, being irradiated, away from any means whatsoever of contacting your family if they need you, and the stress that brings, you can't really comment.

I have A LOT of respect for my colleagues in the office, and they do a difficult job to make an operation run, with limited resource. So this isn't a dig at ground staff.

I highly, highly doubt if you spoke to 90% of the crew at your AOC they would share the same views as you on EASA. Regardless to how you view it on paper, we are on the coal front.

Back to the thread however.

[stiglet]

RHS - these comments are going too far to be believable

'... Unless you have worked 7 straight days of Lates to earlies, in an enclosed, noise environment, with terrible food, at altitude, being irradiated, away from any means whatsoever of contacting your family if they need you, and the stress that brings, you can't really comment.'

'worked 7 straight days of Lates to earlies' - Nobody is operating to these conditions - unless you can show me a roster to prove it?
'in an enclosed, noise environment, ... at altitude,' - isn't that what being a pilot is all about! which you knew when you chose the profession, did you not?
'with terrible food' - isn't most airline food terrible, besides you can bring your own if you're that concerned.
'away from any means whatsoever of contacting your family if they need you, - this is the same for the passengers and what you knew before you started. Once landed we live in the modern world so that's rubbish.

[RHS]

Stiglet. Don't want to post my roster online. But would happily show you over a beer.

Yes I did. I signed up knowing that. It doesn't make it any easier. And I was making the point it's very different to an office job.

Of course we have modern means of communication. Passengers have the ability to cancel a flight, or get off on the other end. We fly regardless of your daughters first day at school, your mother awaiting test results etc. Passengers deal with it once in a blue moon. We deal with it once or twice a month. So not complete rubbish.

Crew food is what is supplied to me. I don't have a choice on it. Unlike an office worker. Who does have a choice.

I'm not knocking the job. I love it. I'm purely pointing out the fatiguing aspects of our job that other industries don't have.

[wiggy]

stigelt - I can see why you might have raised eyebrows (I'm struggling with the comms argument, but I'm old school), nevertheless:

'with terrible food' - isn't most airline food terrible,

True. Now you may find that acceptable if you're exposed to airline food on an occasional basis (FWIW I don't think it is), but if it's part of your diet every working day it becomes less acceptable and more of a health hazard. As RHS has pointed out unlike other jobs there's not really the option to go and dine at a healthier establishment.

besides you can bring your own if you're that concerned.

For some who work long shorthaul shifts that would mean carrying possibly 2/3 DfT compliant meals every day through security...I'm sure some do it but again is it healthy long term? It would generate the sort of fatiguing hassle that RHS is on about.

[Uplinker]

EASA rules and flying rosters are getting really challenging now. However;

You do have a choice about food. It is easy enough to prepare a salad or a couple of rounds of sandwiches in a tupperware box the night before. (Or buy same from M&S). I make my own and add a small tub of nuts and a couple of pieces of fruit. Just don't bring drinks or yoghurts as most security gates have a problem with those.

'Being contactable by your family' : I suspect what is really meant here is being able to take days off at short notice to deal with family issues? In the BBC we used to have 2 emergency days off per year that could be invoked at very short notice - an idea for the Company Councils perhaps? A family that needs to constantly phone you to resolve day to day problems probably needs reorganising ! Having said that, child care can be a nightmare if both parents work.

If you are fatigued, for goodness sake put in a report. You don't have to refuse to fly. I often put a report in if I was fatigued at some point in the day - or even when driving home - and mitigated it by drinking coffee, or taking controlled rest etc. But we MUST put the reports in. The fatigue does not have to be caused by the company either. Neighbour's noisy barbecue/party is a legitimate reason if you were unable to sleep. The CAA should have a depository for us to report fatigue to them if we don't want to go through our company.

A Cabin manager once said to me "but if we put in a fatigue report it will show that we can't cope" EXACTLY !!

The CCs and Unions - of both pilots and cabin crews - should be much stronger over fatigue and rostering - but to do this they will need OUR support and votes. Why we have not had a general walk-out over this is beyond me. Have the unions and XAAs all been nobbled? We need unions more like those in the railways.

[wiggy]

EASA rules and flying rosters are getting really challenging now. However;

You do have a choice about food. It is easy enough to prepare a salad or a couple of rounds of sandwiches in a tupperware box the night before. (Or buy same from M&S). I make my own and add a small tub of nuts and a couple of pieces of fruit.

Whilst that might work at an airline that only does " day trips" how do you think that would work at an airline that does night stops and/or multi day short haul tours, often with minimum rest on the nightstop ( where time is short and chances are the locals haven't even heard of M&S, let alone have one nearby).

The problems of crew food and healthy eating is a ongoing problem at at least one airline I know of.

[Denti]

Sorry but whilst that might work at an airline that only does " day trips" how do you think that would work at an airline that does night stops and/or multi day short haul tours, often with minimum rest on the nightstop?

Never done it myself, but i met few with cabin crew that had basically a suitcase full of food and only the bare necessities for a 5 day (longest we do) trip. Kinda weird to rarely leave the hotel and just live outta your suitcase, but actually nearly understandable with the pay they get.

[wiggy]

Our CC aren't allowed checked bags on Shorthaul but I know some of our longhaul CC do the same on short longhaul trips, either for reasons of economy or because they don't trust the local food...

TBH if the suggestion is the only way crew can guarantee a sensible diet is to drag half of M&S around with them then the flight and cabin crew side of the industry is farked. Can you imagine the office staff being told to bring a suitcase of food into work (and that's not a pop at office staff, just a comparison)?

Anyhow I'll leave it there and wish our Company Council had been more robust in their response to the EASA regs... so back to flying hours and best of luck to the Easyjet pilots....

[RAT 5]

A Cabin manager once said to me "but if we put in a fatigue report it will show that we can't cope" EXACTLY !!

Is it still the case the CA's can work longer hours than Pilots? That's aways been daft for the 'crew concept'. Either way, I have known of numerous occasions in various airlines where CA's have not been promoted because of sickness rates. Not with pilots, but why should CA's be pressurised & victimised with such a policy?

[Uplinker]

Whilst that might work at an airline that only does " day trips" how do you think that would work at an airline that does night stops and/or multi day short haul tours, often with minimum rest on the nightstop ( where time is short and chances are the locals haven't even heard of M&S, let alone have one nearby).


Yep, fair point. In that case, it is a job for their Company Council to ask for crew food to be improved - but industrial action might be required to acheive this.

@RAT 5: Our cabin crew have a terrible union. Also, many cabin crew, (in my experience, including the one I quoted), seem to have a 'nurses' mentality, in that they continue to work under the most ridiculous Ts & Cs and low pay, but not make a fuss about it.

Good luck at EasyJet folks, hope you manage to gain some ground.

[fmgc]

EasyJet pilots vote ?overwhelmingly? to strike, sparking 11th hour deal from airline (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/21/easyjet-pilots-vote-overwhelmingly-to-strike-sparking-11th-hour/)

I wonder what the 11th hour deal is? And it's not really 11th hour if the strike is not due to take place until October half term.

[Thad Jarvis]

The media decided the date was half term. I don't recall the union saying so.
Pretty sure it's not a deal either - just an improved offer.

[mercurydancer]

What the SLF need is aircrew that are not exhausted. As SLF I would actively turn away from any airline where there is a group movement of staff who are saying that they are often too tired to be safe.

[mary meagher]

As pax on a low cost airline that flies from Stansted I was shocked to see the Captain at the end of the flight which had been delayed an hour or so, couldn't get steps, one reason or another....he looked absolutely shattered and worn out. We don't need this.

[RAT 5]

Talking to my doctor & physiotherapist they always said it's not necessarily the length of time you work it's how you work and how that time balanced between work focused time and self-focused time plus exercise. The worst thing you could do is stay immobile totally work focused. Guess what pilots do.
Imagine sitting at your desk for 10 hours looking out of the window on floor 30, looking at your computer screen and doing some work, answering the telephone a few times, chatting to your neighbouring desk, back to the screen monitoring that your previous work was taking effect - adjusting as necessary, accepting a cuppa delivered by your secretary, taking a pee break every 2 hours and a 5 minute stroll round the office before back to the seat and screen again, making more work related entries to react to previous work, a few stolen minutes with the newspaper or internet.
Now do that for 5 days starting at 06.00 or 5 days until 23.00 including weekends. So little exercise, very static. No balance. Your overall fitness would suffer; so why shouldn't ours? Very unhealthy according to my doctor & physiotherapist, yet supposedly the medical profession say it's OK for pilots, or at least that's what EASA muppets tell us. If an office worker went to the company doctor with fatigue and a sore lower back I'm sure they would be advised to change their working life style and mover about more: hence the 'break' every 2.30hr and lunch break for office workers. Health.

[fokker1000]

If these crews are so damned fatigued, i.e., have cumulative lack of rest over months or years. I for one support them in their endeavours.

Passengers want cheap seats, and I get that, but how far down must the industry descend in driving down costs where pilots, and cabin crew are exhausted, typically, at the end of a run of 6 days/nights work…. Then a combination of problems present themselves, and add to that they might not have plenty of 'thinking time' fuel left, and the weather is marginal at destination and alternates… All damned legal, but far from best practice.

Good luck EZY pilots, I genuinely wish you a good, and safe outcome.

[IcePack]

RAT5 - also what is often forgotten by those on the ground making ftl decisions for those in the air is that those in the air are working their bodies quite hard too. You are breathing at 7 to 8 thousand ft. The air is very dry so you dehydrate but drink more than you would on the ground. So body thinks on the outside we have a drought but on the inside a flood.
The air quality is well disgusting just look at any temp sensing filter in the cockpit they are blocked with shed skin. I could go on about radiation & organo phosphates & glare but the jury is still out on those.

[fokker1000]

It's really rather ironic how many airline pilots would rather spend there time off, on a sail boat.

No, not a 40M yacht with a crew on board [they own the flipping airlines], but a slow, wind driven relaxed tub on the south coast doing 4Kts…

Funnily enough, where the relative humidity is closer to 90+%.. Not 20% or less, where many of us spend a lot of time.

[Dan Winterland]

I like to spend time on my boat - it's relaxing. Work isn't.

[BBK]

Gypsy Moth Dan?

Seriously, the changes regarding earlies seems a retrograde step from what friends of mine who fly short haul. I assume this has added to fatigue levels at Easy and elsewhere.

[tubby linton]

What have Easy offered today to mitigate fatigue issues?

[Nil further]

Nothing,the members won't buy the latest fudge.not a chance.

[Aluminium shuffler]

When I worked there, I also suffered fatigue. I visited my GP, wondering if I had some mild but persistent bug, dietary problem,etc, but she saw nothing wrong. She asked to see my roster and her eyes popped out on stalks. She wanted to sign me off for three months on the spot. I said I'd do three weeks off and then come back to her, so as to avoid the licence and medical being suspended by the CAA. I called in to crewing, citing fatigue. They said they'd put me down as sick. It started an argument that ended in me threatening them with legal action against them personally for libel and fraud if they marked it as anything but fatigue, and that I would be checking.

Half an hour later, I got a phone call form the then new Flt Safety guy who had recently been appointed as part of the Go merger. He was really pleased - the CAA had been following a large number of rosters with fatigue concerns, and unbeknownst to me, mine was one of them. So, that constituted an MOR. Chief Pilot war pretty angry when I cam back, but by that point I had resigned.

Fatigue has been a long term issue in EZY, as have anti-pilot managers. But that is not specific to Ezy - it's endemic to the industry.

My recommendation is that if you feel fatigued, make an MOR, and don't do it through the company Flt Safety office as they may rewrite it or just bin it- it has been known to happen. You'll certainly get a lot of political pressure. Just write it straight to the authority. If the CAA want the evidence, then give it to them directly. And take the time off, citing fatigue in writing. If they are happy to kill you, you owe them no loyalty or "extra effort". All that being "orange" bs only goes one way.

[maxred]

My friend is a Captain with them. He has already had sick leave due to chronic fatigue. He spoke to me a year ago, stating he was really struggling with the roster. He had been on a round of earlys, the worst for him, and was getting to the stage of looking to leave. It is the individuals choice of course. Leave.....the crystal clear point however, is that it should not be this way. The airline appears to be well run, the flights appear to be run at near capacity, the schedules fit with public demand. So why is it deemed necessary, desirable, to flog every last inch out of the crew with rosters that induce these problems. No one wants strikes, least the crews themselves, so hopefully sense will prevail.

[Aluminium shuffler]

They have always had a slick public image because their PR department know their job and play along whenever the media want a sound bite from an unrelated company. But it is a turgid smokescreen. I always thought they were like New Labour - all PR and spin, but directionless and corrupt internally. They even came to being the same year.

[IcePack]

as have anti-pilot managers. But that is not specific to Ezy - it's endemic to the industry.
Never a truer word.
For some reason those on the ground believe those that fly (pilots & cabin crew) are no longer human. "Just whinging over paid pain in the a***s"

[maxred]

Well a strike, a well publicised one, should bring a lot of that internal strife to the surface. Here was me thinking it was the other lot that were the baddies.......

[wiggy]

maxred

So why is it deemed necessary, desirable, to flog every last inch out of the crew with rosters that induce these problems. No one wants strikes, least the crews themselves, so hopefully sense will prevail.

Can't speak specifically for Easyjet but in general the airlines (all of them) want minimum crew headcount, so they want every crewmember working to their maximum legal limit - anything less is seen as inefficient by the accountants. If questioned on how hard they are working people they use the fact that they are rostering in compliance with FTL rules (regardless of how daft/onerous those rules are) as evidence that they are producing safe rosters.

[RAT 5]

Attitude, from management, can be everything. It needs to fair & honest. They demand loyalty and unquestionable obedience. It needs earning. If they want pliable 'yes men' then they should change their recruitment criteria. If you employ well educated team/crew problem solving and problem avoiding leaders you should expect individuals who have questioning minds with some resistance to utter BS & disrespect. The vocational aspect of being a pilot has been abused for too long.
I worked for a young growing LoCo where the MD, CP & head of rostering all disliked pilots. There was supposedly an open-door policy, but that seemed to be only if you were invited, usually tea no biscuits. All touchy feely publicly, quite different out of sight.
At recruitment the CP told me they produced the required productivity in 14-16 days/28 of a random roster. I suggested that this meant 12-14 days off/28. This was not denied and I joined up. I then found head of rostering operated a max 8 days off/28 policy as that was the limit. CP had no authority over rostering????? It was a con. The consequence of this was that you could not have extra days off. Duty days were filled in by totally unnecessary SBY's. There were even days of taxying to one airport A, pax-ing to another airport B, flying a single sector to airport C then taxying back to your start point, all so you didn't have an extra day off. CP denied aircrews worked shifts. Office staff had only 8 days off, so why not pilots.
I suspect that those pilots who work fixed 5-3/5-4/5-4/5-3 etc. must have, especially in the shoulder & winter months, many unnecessary SBY's. That is ridiculous particularly if you are away from home at some distant base. Demoralising in extreme: and at one airline all for no pay, but at your own expense. Limits are indeed targets.
It's time this attitude changed.

[Stan Woolley]

Aluminium Shuffler

They have always had a slick public image because their PR department know their job and play along whenever the media want a sound bite from an unrelated company. But it is a turgid smokescreen. I always thought they were like New Labour - all PR and spin, but directionless and corrupt internally. They even came to being the same year.

I worked for them for six years and it felt like I could have written this post. Your comment about new labour is exactly how I felt about them. I have held back from writing about it, as I have let it go, but maybe karma is coming home.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Aluminium. I appreciate it was a few years ago but I can only repeat what I've said before - ring your manager, or ring crewing then your manager or even better go see him/her.
Wiggy Most airlines in the UK now work to industrial limits and within that want to get as much productivity of their (highly paid) asset. I don't see too much wrong with that but eccept that its more than moaning Easyjet Brits.
My only question is if its that bad why aren't we hearing from FR pilots on the issue

[fmgc]

why aren't we hearing from FR pilots on the issue

Because they are up against a Management that are in a different league of aggressiveness and are unable to secure union recognition let alone the ability to strike.

And this is not just about the amount that you work but the pattern that you work. Maybe the FR pilots' working patterns are more palatable?

[Stan Woolley]

fgmc

The whole issue of management at both companies is very interesting. Having worked for both I far prefer the 'do what it says on the tin' type at Ryanair.

The rostering and stability at Ryanair (when I was there) was very good, unfortunately the opposite was true of easy.

Just my 2c

[Dan Winterland]

I sit on a FRMS committee which only has about 25% of it's members actively flying the line. (I don't count managers as they don't do the fatiguing rosters). The comments I often hear is that the roster pattern is "legal" therefore it's OK. I like to point out that it's also legal for the pilots to use TOGA thrust on every take off for five minutes. But if they did that then we would have to either cut the services or buy more aircraft as they would spend so much time in engineering having engines changed.

[Aluminium shuffler]

I realise it seems contradictory, but I agree entirely with fmgc and Stan Wooley. There is just simply no way to object at RYR - unions membership can get you sacked, certainly union recruiting or overt support will (for example the wearing of RPG lanyards being made a sackable "gross misconduct" action), and an utterly bent, ineffectual authority, plus the lack of employee legal protection that is evaded by making most staff false "contractors" - it really is a case of sticking it out or leaving. But for all the problems, it was a less duplicitous, back stabbing and two faced place than Ezy. At least at RYR they were honest about what they wanted, and you could see who your enemy was and devise a strategy to bypass them. They also held grudges less if you played their game and found your way around the system - it was only if you openly defied them that you got into serious trouble. RYR mgmt are very shouty and threatening, but most of it is bluster, you just have to think about what you're doin. At Ezy, they're smiling assassins and you'll never know you've crossed someone until too late.

Oh, and Stan, glad you like the parallel with Blair and his cronies. I can go on to make comparison to the style of blaming the workforce for all the failed policies, like they blamed the NHS, teachers, police, firemen and so on, the unchecked mushrooming of special projects managers just like Blair's proliferation of Quangos, the swelling of unaccountable managers and the utter blindness to the workforce's view oft he management, just like Blair and Brown being unable to see public opinion turn against them, believing instead their own spin. And of course the ill-researched major policy changes, like changing to Airbus without understanding that the pilots would need retraining (CEO RW really didn't comprehend it - it was only the trg dept that raised the issue and pointed out they'd need a swell of pilot numbers to cope with pilots coming off the line for three months), comparing in ill-planning to Blair's invasion of Iraq, and the refusal to accept the CAA requirement to put an extra cabin crew member on with the increase from 149 to 156 seats with the very real argument "but we're easyJet!" seeming to be the same as Blair's attitude to the UN... The parallels are endless.

[Stan Woolley]

ALu Shuffler

:ok:

[RAT 5]

to Moderator: What about combining this with the thread on 'Terms & Conditions'? They are both discussing the same topic.

[R T Jones]

Post #67 sums it up nicely. TOGA is designed for 5 minutes of use and for that extra boost when needed. Not for everyday routine use. If only Flight Time Limitations were viewed the same. Unfortunately they are not.

An interesting thing with EASA is it gives the commander authority to reduce the FDP and increase rest requirements following a duty. Can't say I have used this so far, but it's something worth putting in your mind.

[silverstrata]

The gate staff announced there would be a delay as CC 'had already had a long day and needed a meal break'. I was told that some EZY pilots are insisting that meal breaks are taken, even if this means delaying the flight.


This is an old EZY issue that is just resurfacing. A while ago they declared that meals could not be eaten on short sectors, as that was detrimental to flight safety. And then they declared that meals could not be eaten on the ground, as it was delaying flights. Go figure.

As to bringing your own food. Firstly, we pay for the awful food provided. Secondly, there are still airports with bolshy security that will take many types of food off you (gravy is liquid). And there are also many boIshy CC who will deliberately bring in the hot dinner half way down the descent (too busy before....). This is not the silver-platter world of BOAC, this is the world of the Greasy Spoon truck stop, filling up 20 mugs of tea without lifing the spout and dropping some fag-ash in the last three cups.

[RAT 5]

A while ago they declared that meals could not be eaten on short sectors,

So, on the multi sector LTN - Scotland, LTN - AMS, UK - BFS and no doubt many others, when is the crew supposed to take on flight safety necessary sustenance. In my last airline's Ops manual there was a commendable statement that "the captain will ensure, in consultation with the No.1, that the service schedule will include time for the crew to have meal breaks." Great stuff for the XAA to 'approve' but total BS in what schedule the company imposed on the CA's. The only chance they often had was to grab a bite from a nutrition bar or Mars. The idea of sitting down for a hot meal was fantasy.
Meanwhile the company had built a brand new canteen for use by the ground staff at any time of choosing and especially during their lunch break with tables on the grass on the sun.
It was that 'turning the blind eye' from the XAA, and the disrespect shown from the management, that mad me realise it was time to bail out before I needed to call sick while attending an anger management course.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Rat, that exact thing happened at EZY. Back in the days of the old HQ building on the corner opposite the fire station, they made a large extension for a quite nice canteen. We'd go in there for a coffee and snack on airport standby, but some animals are more equal than others, so while receptionists, ops and crewing staff, managers and other HQ staff were encouraged to waste work hours in there and use their unrestricted company mobiles for personal calls, a memo was sent out banning all crew from entering the canteen. I hope that double standard is not still in force.

[stiglet]

AS that's absolute rubbish :=

[olster]

Very interesting. I completely concur with Stan. I also worked with the Orange set in the fairly early days. Coming from a relatively (!) 'legacy' background I was looking forward to my new short haul lifestyle. Whereas in my previous existence the relationship between management and pilots was relatively benign I was astonished at the hostility to the pilot group within easy. Essentially the prevailing view was that we were a bunch of overpaid prima donnas and our laughable obsessions with such trivia as fatigue, multi sector days and crew food were merely self absorbed obstacles to airline accountant nirvana. It would appear that the same old tedious issues continue to surface. I agree with the view that, although I have never worked for them, the Ryanair 'just do your job' philosophy worked well in comparison to the false pretence that easy gave to the world of actually caring for the pilot lifestyle concerns. In reality they did not give a rat's posterior and I am sure, still don't. I am not sure that the fabled staff canteen actually banned pilots, but on the one occasion that I ventured there in uniform I was viewed with distaste. The comparison with New Labour is interesting and has been made before: a lot of spin and deceit behind the scenes.

[RAT 5]

What strikes me as curious is that the MD and senior management has changed at least 4 times in the past 16 years since ez became stabilised and set off on its investment & expansion plans. How is it that the attitude from the very early days of a struggling embryonic airline can have survived 4 generations? From conversations it seemed the 'orange' image of being bright and shiny on the outside was a rather dirty rusty brown on the inside. One would have hoped the changes of a senior management and the arrival of BALPA would have created a constructive positive adult environment. What went wrong?

[SLF3]

This may seem a bit naïve, but I would like to think for an airline with the scale of Easyjet it would not be beyond the wit of man to device rosters that both maximised working hours and let people rest.

Is the problem a lack of will on the part of management or the nature of the beast?

What would a 'decent' EASA compliant roster look like, and is it deliverable given the economics of the low cost model?

[Stan Woolley]

SLF3

This may seem a bit naïve, but I would like to think for an airline with the scale of Easyjet it would not be beyond the wit of man to device rosters that both maximised working hours and let people rest.


The will has to be there.

[RAT 5]

I worked for an airline where there was continuing complaint about the rosters. They were inefficient, tiring and as a result frustrating. We knew how they could be improved, and wrote a demonstration for debate. IT was only a small charter airline, 6 a/c. Our roster produced good efficient improved productivity. The reply was, "you have too many days off." Case closed.
In my LoCo days rostering started with days off, 8 days max and only 2 days off together; they then fill din the gaps with duties. It didn't matter if they were efficient, rostering said the crews were working the maximum number of days so management had no complaint. Completely the wrong way round; to plan a roster starting with non-duty time rather than actual work. Daft!
That is something the fixed roster system may lead to. Too many inefficient days. The guys who are based up north in Scotland, or down in TFS or LPA. Most of the flights are long, so flying hours ad up quickly. What % of useless SBY's are in a roster so that you do not get extra days off. How many times are there 3 crews on SBY for 1 a/c? I suspect the contractors do far too many SBY's for no pay, away from home, just to complete 5 days duty. It makes sense for the employees to be maxed-out first and let the zero-hour workers get screwed.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Stiglet, it's not rubbish at all. The memo went out not long after the new canteen was completed that crew were not allowed to use it. It wasn't often enforced, but quite a lot of cabin crew at the time stopped using it, more worried about breaking that rule than the bulk of the pilots were. But there were occasions that some meeley mouthed manager would enforce it if they saw us in there. Maybe it was before your time, or maybe you're an EZY sycophant; it makes no odds, the rule existed, and is extremely illustrative of the culture at the time. Like I said, I hope it changed.

[flap15]

He's gone. He has left the orange hanger. Chris Browne from Thompson is replacing him.