View Full Version : Barcelona Air Prox
Chronus
2nd Sep 2016, 19:21
Aviation Herald reports serious incident on August 7 between Vueling A321-200 and Easy A320-200. Separation reduced to 0 vertical and 1.48m horizontal on approach 07L.
atc`s preference for own language to Spanish aircraft may come up as an issue once again.
Airbubba
2nd Sep 2016, 19:28
Separation reduced to 0 vertical and 1.48m horizontal on approach 07L.
1.48m? Are you sure? :confused:
So they missed by five feet? :eek:
pattern_is_full
2nd Sep 2016, 19:46
Airbubba, it is treason for a Yank to assume "metric" in any situation. ;)
1.48 miles lateral separation.
It was a head-on (well, 45°) conflict (one on left base for the active, turning final, the other on right base). Not a lot of clarity yet otherwise.
readywhenreaching
2nd Sep 2016, 21:02
Couldnt help suspecting BCN airspace is a magnet for all sorts of conflicts these months. Or do they have a more sensitive reporting system ?
Hotel Tango
2nd Sep 2016, 21:23
atc`s preference for own language to Spanish aircraft may come up as an issue once again.
That's interesting, because to the best of my knowledge VLG crews use English on the r/t even in Spain. Certainly was so last time I was in BCN and PMI.
HEATHROW DIRECTOR
2nd Sep 2016, 21:31
Tricky old wind perhaps?
Chronus
3rd Sep 2016, 17:55
Link below shows rough tracks of both aircraft. Easy seems to be on wider base turn compared to the tighter turn of VY.
http://avherald.com/img/vueling_a321_ec-mhs_easyjet_a320_g-eztf_barcelona_160807_map.jpg
HeartyMeatballs
3rd Sep 2016, 18:02
Perhaps it wasn't the case here however I can see this happening again and again. It's all well and good letting the local based airlines in first (like most of Southern Europe) but if your vectoring skills aren't all that, then you're going to run into issues.
planedrive
3rd Sep 2016, 18:47
@hoteltango
If you're under the illusion that Vueling crews use English in Spanish airspace then you obviously haven't been anywhere in Spain recently. They're probably even worse offenders than Iberia
Hotel Tango
3rd Sep 2016, 19:38
Well, the last time I was in BCN, for a period of 3 days, every single VLG aircraft used English. It so surprised me that I remarked on it to a friend at the time. I even wondered if it was company SOP (since they have mixed nationality crews). It may well be that if both pilots are Spanish they revert to their native language. However, I am adamant that in that 3 day period I never heard a single VLG use Spanish! Yes, it was odd, which is why I remember it.
captplaystation
3rd Sep 2016, 20:01
They use English . . . . until they want to jump the Q . . . then.
Only (half) joking :rolleyes:
CaptPS. Mind your P's & Q's.
Only (half) joking
atc`s preference for own language to Spanish aircraft may come up as an issue once again.
It is not ATC preference to use Spanish language. They are obliged to answer in Spanish if the pilot calls in Spanish.
Since the law is not likely to change, the best would be if Vueling and other Spanish airlines would make it SOP to use English. In the mean time when flying in Spain it's a good idea to brush up on Spanish RT phraseology by carrying a copy of Doc 4444 in Spanish (http://www.capi.com.co/manuales/radio.pdf). :ok:
White Knight
4th Sep 2016, 00:51
Tricky old wind perhaps?
Could be! More investment needed in the x,y and z axis maybe...
Chronus
4th Sep 2016, 18:39
Both aircraft being vectored under ATC control. The question must be which ATC intended as No 1 in the sequence and why did it not work out as planned. Could it be that one cut the corner, as both would appear to be at about the right distance from threshold before base turn.
runawayedge
4th Sep 2016, 22:13
RAT 5.....excellent, love the humour!!
Chronus
5th Sep 2016, 18:25
They use English . . . . until they want to jump the Q . . . then.
Only (half) joking :rolleyes:
...and then might they just say I know naathing I come from Barcelona ?
I once mentioned that the locals get priority in Spain and got ripped to shreds by an ex Heathrow controller who told me it would never happen and I did not understand the controllers big picture. Well how am I to understand the big picture if every one is not talking the same language?
Spain and France=accident waiting to happen, especially at places as busy as BCN and CDG.
As an Air France pilot operating out of CDG, I can assure you many of us wish for English to be the standard language on freq.
Resistance mainly comes from ATC...
ETOPS
23rd Sep 2016, 07:45
Further to the suggestion by LMX try listening for the phrase "¿Hay moros en la costa?"
The literal translation would be "Is the coast clear?" but when ATC are jumping a local ahead of you it means "Spanish stick together............"
Well, reply in English to any ATC transmission in French. That way everybody's SA is enhanced - this is a SAFETY issue. May be ATC will get the message eventually.....
A4
RAT 5
23rd Sep 2016, 08:56
As an Air France pilot operating out of CDG, I can assure you many of us wish for English to be the standard language on freq.
Resistance mainly comes from ATC...
What authority does EASA have on this issue. Pills have an ELA rating; I assume ATC does also. Therefore we all have the ability. EU is EASA territory and they have law making ability. Does it include ALL aspects of front line aviation? If so could ECA not lobby for ATC in English in all states?
Fortissimo
23rd Sep 2016, 12:15
At a recent conference in London we were briefed that Agil Azur has decided its pilots will all speak English to ATC over France. Good news.
On of the CDG managers talked to the Eurocontrol Safety Forum in June and said that the use of French by ATC/Francophone pilots at CDG was now recognized as a hazard and was on the risk register. The main problem (apparently) is that not all the ground handlers speak English. Why that means all the other locals should speak French is entirely another matter.
RAT 5
23rd Sep 2016, 13:24
Someone on another thread mentioned English as the ICAO language. Even without EASA intervention would this not mean that all ICAO states should use English in RT transmissions? I do remember a caveat, years ago - perhaps before JAR, which said local language could be used if it did not infringe on safety. Is that still the case? e.g. South America, even Russia and other E European countries, before ELA rating in a licence had not yet been introduced.
grizzled
24th Sep 2016, 02:51
The issue of pilots and ATC using more than one language should of course be a safety issue. But it isn't; it's about culture and politics. We found that out in Canada a few years ago. Studies of hazards and risk are irrelevant when higher political agendas are in play.
ATC Watcher
24th Sep 2016, 21:02
Funny how an airprox in Bacelona diverts to pros and cons of Using French in Canada ... But one point you have right : it's about culture and politics.
Gentlemen, ICAO rules of the air specify which language to be used when overflying a State. ( the language set by the State ) All attempts to change this since 1944 have failed all miserably.
No-one wants to try again. Check with your State ICAO commissioner if you do not believe me .
English Language proficiency testing is of course one step forward, but does not solve the use of 2 languages simultaneously..
Using English everywhere is of course and by far the best option. But not necessarily the safest in places where nobody else speaks English, ( e.g Russia to take only one example) and contrary to popular belief it is not a high safety risk. (and before you start shooting , check your facts and figures )
Over and out.