View Full Version : SEP rating has expired, what to do...

31st Aug 2016, 06:32
I assumed when I converted my old German PPL(A) into an EASA one in 2015 that the SEP rating was renewed at the same time. The Civil Servant who helped me asked about "12 hours in the last year, with an instructor, blah, blah, blah*" so I assumed...

That turns out not to have been the case. The rating expired last November. Since that time I've only flown N-reg or gliders, so no laws broken. I only learned this because I would like to add on a TMG class rating, and PPL-to-TMG is easier than SPL-to-TMG (3 hours vs. 6 hours).

I know that if you have both SEP and TMG then the hours, instructional flight, etc. count for both. I also know that if you have SEP and pass a check ride to add on TMG then it resets SEP for two more years.

Now the "however part," I don't know the answers to these questions:

1. Even if the SEP is expired, can I use that as the basis for adding on TMG?

2. Will the TMG practical test reset SEP?

Before I tackle the German bureaucracy in my ICAO Level 5 proficiency, I'd like to know the FCL references.

This is really a money/time issue. I fly mostly, but not exclusively, power in the US and mostly gliders in Europe. Going to an ATO to be evaluated for an hour, "trained" for an hour, and tested for an hour is much more expensive than three extra hours in the TMG.

*I emailed her a few days ago "hinting" that maybe there was a typo on the license. She's out of the office for two weeks. :(

Thanks for your expertise.


31st Aug 2016, 08:53
If your EASA licence is also German you really need someone familiar with the German approach to renewals. They probably have different gold plating (or perhaps none) compared to the CAA. Most of the regulars on here are in the UK.

31st Aug 2016, 12:26
I assume for flying N-reg you hold a standalone FAA PPL and not a 61.75 validation based on the Part.FCL license (in which case your flying would have been illegal).

To your questions. In General
1. No, you cannot add TMG based on an expired SEP
2. No, the TMG practical test with invalid SEP will neither count nor reset SEP

If your SEP is expired you should approach a local FE to clarify the options at your RP - they are quite different.

31st Aug 2016, 14:12
I assume for flying N-reg you hold a standalone FAA PPL and not a 61.75 validation based on the Part.FCL license (in which case your flying would have been illegal).
You assume correctly; it's actually the other way around in my case. The German-then-EASA licenses came from the FAA certificates when I was stationed here a few years ago. I've not done much power flying in Europe.

I don't particularly care if I renew the SEP or not. I can fly N-reg via the base flying club cheaper. However, if it were reasonably priced and convenient then I would do it. It's not worth several hundred Euro just to save three hours in the motor glider.

It has been more than three- and less than 12 months, so supposedly I "should get an assessment, two hours of dual, and a check flight." This weekend I flew 2.4 hours including six landings, an ILS approach (with safety pilot), and had a PPR for the largest USAF base in Germany. I don't need "training," I'd just like to fly with an examiner. Doesn't seem possible. :(

If I could find a place to do some aerobatic training and combine it with a renewal then it might be worth it!

31st Aug 2016, 17:37
Adding a TMG has nothing to do with your SEP expired or otherwise, Once both are valid, then you can maintain them based upon hours in either. To add the TMG you need a Class Rating Skill Test; to renew the SEP you need a Class Rating Proficiency Check, both require action by an ATO before you can sit the tests.

2nd Sep 2016, 09:27
I wanted to look up the references, but the EASA document library isn't playing along today. The way I understand the implementation of this bit of regulation, it is up to the ATO to evaluate your training needs. In doing so they can also take into account just what you have done this past weekend, so using your FAA experience they might be able to sign you off for just a profcheck. The big question is whether the ATO will want to do this. I would grab the phone and call a number of flying clubs that have an ATO (or smaller flying schools) and speak to their head of training. If you explain that you are current on your FAA papers then I would expect one of them to offer you the option of just doing the profcheck. If you go to larger ATOs then they will probably be more likely to want to do the actual evaluation in an aircraft with additional training as that lines their pockets (just my two cents of course...).
The end result of the evaluation by an ATO is just a piece of paper signed by them that states what additional training is required, as far as I know this can be 'none'.

24th Sep 2016, 14:25
to renew your SEP(land), you would need an ATO action and licence proficiency check with examiner. Part FCL AMC┤s and GM┤s are talking about the guidelines for the renewal training. Furtunately for SEP(land) it is not a big issue.
Usually 1-2hrs on C152 are enough. Just to renew your normal and emergency procedures proficiency.
I have done a lot of the renewals of SEP(land).
I am the EASA FE, CRE, IRE, FIE, TRE. Should you have any further questions, please contact me.

14th Feb 2017, 17:18
No, you cannot add TMG based on an expired SEP

My German CAA-equivalent contact person says you can. It does nothing to fix the dead SEP part, though. In my case it's now a moot point...

I was current in N-reg airplanes. I did three flights in a Robin R2160 to practice aerobatics and expand my glider aerobatic rating to airplanes. I had the checkride with a German examiner last week. I had a great time. I work on what is essentially an Army airfield. I arranged to do a GCA approach. I have a blog post about a bit of historic trivia: What do I have in common with the Berlin Airlift? | Terry Pitts (http://www.terrypitts.com/2017/02/10/what-do-i-have-in-common-with-the-berlin-airlift/)

The blog also has a page with an aerobatic video in the Robin.

I passed the checkride. :)

The PDF I emailed for renewal was 18 pages long!

18th Feb 2017, 01:21
I assume for flying N-reg you hold a standalone FAA PPL and not a 61.75 validation based on the Part.FCL license (in which case your flying would have been illegal).

No, it actually is not illegal.

The certificate issued under 14 CFR 61.75 does not become invalidated merely when an SEP included in the foreign licence expires. See FAA Office of the Chief Counsel legal interpretations to Krausz 2012 (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2012/krausz-beaumont&son%20-%20(2012)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf) and Gro▀mann 2014 (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/grossman-delvag%20luftfahrtversicherungs%20-%20(2014)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf).

1st May 2017, 16:08

My SEP expired yesterday, can i log hours on my logbook even after expiry ?


2nd May 2017, 08:41
Only if you fly with a FI or Examiner as you cannot be PIC on a SEP without a valid SEP rating.