2i/c with only 279 hours - all on type. What gives..

[sheppey]

From a Middle Eastern incident report: The A320 Captain was found to have 17300 total flying hours including 6400 on type and was accompanied by a First Officer with 279 total flying hours, all on type. The 737 Captain was found to have 12600 total flying hours including 7100 on type and 1800 hours in command on all types and was accompanied by a First Officer with 412 total flying hours including 186 on type.

USA have a regulation requiring the minimum flight time for a pilot on airline flying is 1500 hours. Reading the above it is worrying that a second in command of a large transport jet can safely be second in command with a total of only 279 hours all on type? Surely that is wrong information. Is that the result of an MPL?

[donpizmeov]

In Australia you have Jetstar where you can but a job on the 320 with the same hours. Is that different?

[bugged on the right]

I think captains will develop big bladders.

[ETOPS]

As a Boeing Capt (on various types) I have regularly flown with new cadets recently released to the line with under 300 hours total time. That's just under 250 for the ATPL course, base and line training of 50 hours.

They were very well trained, keen to learn and competent.

[ExDubai]

From a Middle Eastern incident report: The A320 Captain was found to have 17300 total flying hours including 6400 on type and was accompanied by a First Officer with 279 total flying hours, all on type. The 737 Captain was found to have 12600 total flying hours including 7100 on type and 1800 hours in command on all types and was accompanied by a First Officer with 412 total flying hours including 186 on type.

USA have a regulation requiring the minimum flight time for a pilot on airline flying is 1500 hours. Reading the above it is worrying that a second in command of a large transport jet can safely be second in command with a total of only 279 hours all on type? Surely that is wrong information. Is that the result of an MPL?
Never heard about "ab initio programs"?

[Martin_123]

incident reports typically show hours that are declared by the pilot. If the FO believed the standard 200 hour pre-jet hours are not relevant to the investigation, he didn't declare them. The other FO with 412 hours thought it would be a good idea to show that he did something else before sitting in a jet, so he declared them. In either case, the investigator won't chase up their logbooks to verify the hours as in a lot of cases it makes no difference to the investigation..

regarding the 1500 hour requirement in the USA, it is stupid, it is damaging the industry and has no basis whatsoever. I'm not sure why you brought it up? I'm not aware of a single incident investigation result where a safety recommendation would have been made to increase the minimum hours for FOs, if you know any, please share

[Phantom Driver]

They were very well trained, keen to learn and competent. Concur; We had young guys come straight out of training onto the 744 with very few hours; no hanging about for years observing on the jump seat either . Company policy was that, as PF , he even taxied the beast out to the runway and back to the stand (Captain took over for parking at AGNIS stands, but with a marshaller at a remote stand I often let them get on with it. On the whole, good lads, good operators).

(By the way, relatively speaking , a fair bit of manual flying encouraged when appropriate; company policy was--on approach ; autopilot out, auto throttle out. They coped.)

[Ancient-Mariner]

In reply to Martin 123


The best one when it comes to unlikely information in an accident report must be https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422fccc40f0b61346000969/dft_avsafety_pdf_501548.pdf

This for an Airbus A300-600ST Beluga Transporter on departure from Hawarden/EGNR. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/9b/06/50/9b0650dd86e9e66138d8cd6671a8eb36.jpg

According to the report, the Commander's Licence was a Private Pilots' Licence. There is no mention of an Instrument Rating.

Clive

[Huck]

(By the way, relatively speaking , a fair bit of manual flying encouraged when appropriate; company policy was--autopilot out, auto throttle out. They coped.)


That's a good policy.....

[Can737]

If pilots would start on turboprops and after a thousand hours would switch to jets, it would only enhance the safety. Those cadets are heavily relying on automation in order to keep those 180 pax safe in the back, you don't learn real life in the sim.

1500 hours of real instrument flying at FL250 in ice and all in some turboprop wouldn't hurt a pilot curriculum, that is for sure.
:hmm: it wouldn't hurt the market either lol, no more 250 hrs wanabees screewing up the jet work conditions with their type rating paid by daddy...

Ok flame away, cadet is the best system in the world...

[cessnapete]

Whats the problem?
In BA we put 250+ hour cadets straight into the RHS of HS Tridents/B737/A320/B757 from our Training College. After Base training they completed about 50 sectors under supervision, and then, for the first 6 months, were only rostered with experienced Capts.
These cadet pilots went onto be Captains, some who have now retired,all with an enviable safety record. Then we didn't have multi hour turbo-prop or ex military pilots to recruit.
It's the quality of the initial training that counts, not flying hours. The 1500hr FAA requirement is meaningless in this respect, when the hours could have been accrued in instructing in a C172!

[FlyingStone]

If pilots would start on turboprops and after a thousand hours would switch to jets, it would only enhance the safety. Those cadets are heavily relying on automation in order to keep those 180 pax safe in the back, you don't learn real life in the sim.

1500 hours of real instrument flying at FL250 in ice and all in some turboprop wouldn't hurt a pilot curriculum, that is for sure.
:hmm: it wouldn't hurt the market either lol, no more 250 hrs wanabees screewing up the jet work conditions with their type rating paid by daddy...

Ok flame away, cadet is the best system in the world...

There aren't enough TP aircraft to produce the required amount of jet pilots with your system.

[ATC Watcher]

According to the report, the Commander's Licence was a Private Pilots' Licence. There is no mention of an Instrument Rating

Common ! this is obviously a typo, or a copy/paste error from a previous report resume . it's just just a single sheet pdf. Check the official report . All Airbus Beluga crews are ATPL and top notch ( I know their operations) . The experience /flying hours show it as well. Don't believe everything posted on internet.

[Can737]

There aren't enough TP aircraft to produce the required amount of jet pilots with your system.

I keep meeting well trained militaries or 4000 hours turboprop pilots who get bypassed by the self sponsored cadets, while in the USA the majors are running after experienced and military pilots.

The militaries and the turboprops pilots should be the first ones to be given an opportunity for those jobs, followed by cadets if needs be, not the other way around.

[Ancient-Mariner]

re ATC Watcher

That single sheet IS the official report! Have a look at the web address I posted, it is a .gov.uk address 100% legal.

I was actually responding to Martin 123 who referred to reports being based on input from the pilot. This would be the case here.


Following a conversation with one of the Beluga pilots, I believe the typo came from an abbreviation used by the pilot (they are all French nationals) which came out as PPL which in the UK and I guess elsewhere English speaking is used for Private Pilots Licence.


Clive

[Piltdown Man]

There are many operators who have F/O's who start with 250 hours or so. I've not yet found a bad one. Some need to improve their people skills but to be honest, most are a credit to their training systems. That they are second in command of an aircraft shouldn't worry anyone. What should worry people is why tbe FAA allows airlines to pay their pilots so little that the have to cut corners to live. The 1,500 hour minimum was smoke and mirrors - Something went wrong -> Something was done = That will never happen again.

PM

[ATC Watcher]

Ancient mariner : I believe the typo came from an abbreviation used by the pilot (they are all French nationals) which came out as PPL

Good one !:O I did not think of that one , yes in French the old ATPL licence abbreviation is PL ( Pilote de Ligne) and I suppose they must have had a good laugh when they saw the report ! ...:ok:

It also show that the guy typing the report has no idea what he/she types...

[flydive1]

If pilots would start on turboprops and after a thousand hours would switch to jets, it would only enhance the safety. Those cadets are heavily relying on automation in order to keep those 180 pax safe in the back, you don't learn real life in the sim.

Are the 50 pax on the TP more expendable than the 180 on the jet?

[Aeolus2000BC]

Veteran one of youngest B-17 pilots | StAugustine.com (http://staugustine.com/stories/103006/news_vet.shtml#.V8VExvl97IU)

From the time Finch was 8 years old, his dream was to become a pilot when he grew up. That dream came true, when as a 19-year-old draftee, he was assigned to pilot training at Maxwell Field in Decatur, Ala., then sent to Freeman Field, Seymour, Ind., for advanced training. Finch's plane was the B-17 bomber.

He recalls his mother pinning on his wings and second lieutenant bars at flight school graduation in August 1944. His father and his girlfriend, Kathryn Carter, were there, too.

"It was one of my most memorable and proudest moments," Finch said.

B-17 bombers were a vital part of the United States' WWII offense in Europe, and Finch was assigned to the 815th Squadron of the 483rd Bomb Group, 15th Air Force.

At 20, he became one of the youngest men to fly combat in a B-17. The four-engine bomber was equipped with six defensive gun locations and was called the "Flying Fortress." Group formations of the plane provided its best defense. Planes flew in tight formation to allow the guns of multiple planes to be brought to bear on approaching enemy fighters.

With a crew of eight, Finch had the job of air commander. After the first encounter with enemy fire, "Flying didn't seem as much fun," Finch confessed, nor was the near mid-air collision with another plane. But his whole crew survived the war and came home safe, and for that he says he is thankful



Typical age of a WWII officer - compared to the officers today (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2428002/posts?page=29)

During WWII, in a USAAF fighter group, the average age of a first lieutenant would be around 21, a captain a year older, a major another year older, a lieutenant colonel around 24-26 and a colonel in his late 20s to early 30s.

Honour for Battle of Britain's youngest Spitfire pilot - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-12833450)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Finucane

Wing Commander Brendan Eamonn Fergus Finucane, DSO, DFC & Two Bars (16 October 1920 – 15 July 1942), known as Paddy Finucane amongst his colleagues, was a Second World War Royal Air Force (RAF) fighter pilot and flying ace—defined as an aviator credited with five or more enemy aircraft destroyed in aerial combat. As of 2016, Finucane continues to hold the record as the youngest pilot ever to hold the rank of Wing Commander, promoted to the position when he was 21, and has one of the highest kill rates in RAF history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Wellum

Easy Jet's Luke Elsworth becomes Britain?s youngest professional pilot | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3669493/Teenager-Britain-s-youngest-professional-pilot-age-just-19-following-father-s-footsteps-easyJet.html)

The Youngest WWII Pilot Flew A Jaw Dropping Amount Of Missions - World War Wings (http://worldwarwings.com/this-is-the-youngest-pilot-of-world-war-ii-plus-he-had-an-impressive-record/)

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=4dhZAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT15&lpg=PT15&dq=youngest+jet+fighter+pilot&source=bl&ots=yo95mev6BQ&sig=KbvmYaM4vfK5k4HkEmCMuzkT_4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjunOO35ujOAhXDnZQKHbzKCgoQ6AEIWjAM#v=onepage&q=youngest%20jet%20fighter%20pilot&f=false:ok:

[ATC Watcher]

During WW II some teens kids were sent out on missions on fighters whith 20 hours TT, the attrition rate was atrocious .
I read somewhere long ago that the B17 attrition rate was around 60% with vast majority not due enemy fire but due to in flight collisions and on approach landing due bad weather.
Wikipedia says that the average life a B17 during the war was 13 missions.

Just to put things back into perspective.:rolleyes:

[Martin_123]

I keep meeting well trained militaries or 4000 hours turboprop pilots who get bypassed by the self sponsored cadets, while in the USA the majors are running after experienced and military pilots.

The militaries and the turboprops pilots should be the first ones to be given an opportunity for those jobs, followed by cadets if needs be, not the other way around.
you do realize that in most countries airforces begin and end with couple of helicopters, cessnas and a couple of twins for skydiving/transport? Or do you insist that only Americans/British/French/German/Italian should be commercial pilots and everyone else should just stand by and applaud these great thoroughbreds and forget about creating our own airlines, jobs and sustaining the industry?

[megan]

Aeolus2000BC, the youngest WWII pilot was not an American B-17 bomber pilot, but a young UK lad who flew Whitley bombers.

Thomas Dobney added 4 years to his age and joined the RAF as a pilot in 1941 at the age of only 14.

After training in Canada, he was awarded his wings at 15 and was posted to a Whitley bomber squadron.

He flew over 20 operations before his true age was revealed when his estranged father saw him in a photograph talking to King GeorgeVI who had visited his station in East Anglia.

The astonished father contacted the Air Ministry to ask why his 15 year old son was dressed in a pilot's uniform and talking to the King. Thus his true age emerged.

He was immediately discharged with a letter saying "The reasons are soley that you are below the minimum age".

He rejoined in 1943, but suffered serious injuries in a crash following an engine failure on take off, and by the time he recovered the war had ended. He remained in the RAF, flew in the Berlin Airlift and became a pilot in the King's Flight.

He then joined the Metropolitan Police before returning to the RAF as an Air Traffic Controller, and subsequently became a deputy art editor with the Daily Express in Manchester.

Tom Dobney died of cancer in Cheadle Hulme, Cheshire in April 2001.

[cattletruck]

Many years ago I got to sit in the jump seat of a Qantas 744 en-route Heathrow. In the left seat was one of Qantas's most experienced captains (I recognised the name), in the right hand seat was a young pimply long haired kid.

The two seemed to gel and it was a very pleasant work environment during this flight.

I have no doubt the captain retired gracefully, and the kid grew up cut his hair and started filling the boots of those before him.

Number of hours doesn't equate to quality of experience (or training). To prove that point an F-18 instructor was telling me about a time he was training a bored corp jet pilot with thousands of hours who "jumped ship" to the USN. He couldn't do the carrier landings so he was released.

[Downwind Lander]

During WW II some teens kids were sent out on missions on fighters with 20 hours TT, the attrition rate was atrocious .

Yes, around 10 hours solo.... and some died on their first landing since the spitfire had such a narrow u/c wheelbase. I wonder why they weren't trained on hurricanes and converted to spitfires. What a world they had to live in.

[ExDubai]

I keep meeting well trained militaries or 4000 hours turboprop pilots who get bypassed by the self sponsored cadets, while in the USA the majors are running after experienced and military pilots.

The militaries and the turboprops pilots should be the first ones to be given an opportunity for those jobs, followed by cadets if needs be, not the other way around.
Funny I meet this year "well trained military pilots" in TLS and I was really shocked about their "Top Gun" attitude. And this was not the first time...

[Brakes...beer]

I think we might be getting our World Wars mixed up here. 20 hrs total time might have been the case for new pilots arriving on squadrons in WWI (I don't know), but in 'First Light' Geoffrey Wellum records his arrival on a Spitfire Sqn in 1940 with 168 hrs total time, of which 95 solo (and none yet on Spitfires), which was presumably typical.

[Tscottme]

I worked at US's 2nd largest flight school. We had many foreign students in the late 1990s. Virtually all of our students from Latin America had jobs waiting for them back home flying 727, 737, etc once they completed their US Commercial, Multi, Instrument. That only requires 250 TT

[Aluminium shuffler]

It's an old argument, and those with any real experience of cadets vs experienced FOs will all say the same thing - it makes little difference. It is more about training, aptitude and, above all, attitude. The US 1500 hours limit is a band aid for the FAA to appear to be doing something after a spate of regional airline crashes that were more due to fatigue (which they are also addressing to some extent) and lack lustre training and attitudes, which they are not. Look at the various runway over-runs, the landings on incorrect runways or even airports, the SWA wheel barrow at La Gaurdia... the list goes on, but none of those accidents had a cadet FO. But do we see an unduly high accident rate in Europe, where cadet FOs are the norm, and have been common for decades? No.

[flash8]

Didn't Mexicana have an issue in the 70's or 80's whereas due to laws requiring pilots to be nationals they had an immense shortage leading to 19 year old SO's. 20 year old FO's and 21 year old Captains on the 727?