BATTLE OF PALMDALE - 60 years ago today.

[evansb]

Sixty years ago today, on August 16, 1956, the skies over Southern California became the stage for an aerial battle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale

[fleigle]

A heck of a lot more people now living in all of those areas mentioned.
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[Pontius Navigator]

Clearly lessons in probability theory, gravity, and damage limitation were lacking.

[Heathrow Harry]

wonder what happened to thw crews? DEW line duty probably..............

[RAFEngO74to09]

At least Air Force Plant 42 and the "Skunk Works" didn't get damaged !

Air Force Plant 42 (http://www.dreamlandresort.com/black_projects/plant42.htm)

http://angellaraisian.com/wp-content/uploads/Plant-42.jpg

[Basil]

(From Wiki) "As the drone passed over Palmdale's downtown, Mighty Mouse rockets fell like hail" . . . . a chunk of shrapnel from one Air Force rocket burst through the front window of her home, ricocheted off the ceiling, went through a wall and came to rest in a kitchen cupboard." More rocket fragments completely penetrated a home and garage on 4th Street East. One rocket landed right in front of a vehicle being driven west on California State Route 138 near Tenth Street West, of which one tire was shredded and many holes were punched through the car's body. Two men in Placerita Canyon had been eating in their utility truck; right after they left it to sit under the shade of a tree, a rocket struck it destroying it. Many fires were started near Santa Clarita, with three large ones and many smaller ones in and around Palmdale.

It took 500 firefighters two days to bring the brushfires under control. 1000 acres were burned. There were no fatalities.

All, I guess, could have been averted by WW2 cannon.

[Heathrow Harry]

or flying alongside and tipping the wing as per V1 tactics

[MPN11]

or flying alongside and tipping the wing as per V1 tacticsOh, yes, with each wingtip loaded with 52 rockets that would be a great move!! Darwin would approve :) :)

[onetrack]

In the finest gung-ho American traditions of armaments discharge ... :)

"In all, the Air Force element fired 208 rockets and were unable to shoot the Hellcat down."

[MPN11]

Do I get the feeling that Air Defence has never been the USAF's strong point?

[Momoe]

Once the rockets were expended, tipping the drone might have worked.

IIRC, physical contact wasn't required. Simply placing the wing tip under and gradually lifting caused the airflow to lift the wing.
Incidentally, the first V-1 destroyed using this method was by a P-51.

[Wander00]

Good job it was not firing back........

[Heathrow Harry]

They could probably have upset it by making a fast close pass - I'm sure the autopilot wasn't particularly robust

[evansb]

Coincidentally, the maiden flight of the Northrop F-89 Scorpion was also on August 16th, albeit 8 years earlier, in 1948.

The Northrop F-89 Scorpion managed a couple of firsts, beginning with its being the first interceptor aircraft designed specifically for all-weather military missions.


A later derivative of the D model was the F-89J which could be armed with two unguided Genie nuclear rockets, and the Scorpion became the first aircraft to fire such a weapon in July 1957.

Regarding the speed of drone during the intercept, it is not known, however, given radio contact with the drone was lost shortly after departure, and the initial intercept occurred at 30,000 ft., the F6F drone was probably doing less than 300 kts. The F-89D Scorpion was capable of just over 550 kts in level flight.

[MPN11]

A Genie could have solved the crisis in moments ... possibly :)

[Load Toad]

There was a problem with the (lack of) gun sights and aiming computers & rockets not exploding. Until they hit the ground....

[Heathrow Harry]

"A Genie could have solved the crisis in moments ... possibly"

Now that made me laugh................

[ericferret]

Torrey Canyon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrey_Canyon_oil_spill

"The British government was strongly criticised for its handling of the incident, which was at that time the costliest shipping disaster ever. The RAF and the Royal Navy also came in for ridicule, as 25% of the 42 bombs dropped missed the enormous stationary target."

People in glass houses..............

[onetrack]

But .. but .. a total of two hundred and eight rockets, with barely even a disturbance of the Hellcats steady flight path??? :rolleyes:

With a 250kt speed advantage, one would think a Scorpion would be able to at least dive on the Hellcat. It's not like there was a skilled pilot at the controls of the Hellcat, carrying out nimble evasive manouevres .... :confused:

[sandiego89]

Do I get the feeling that Air Defence has never been the USAF's strong point?


Oh my, that seems to be painting with a very broad brush, I think you will find that some USAF interceptors and crews were quite capable- especially when you look at the F-106. The F-101 and F-102 also had some utility in this role, and the F-4 when pressed into the role even though it was not a true interceptor- and then we have the F-15 and F-16 which have been used for "air-defense". Surely they are quite capable. The F-104 saw limited service as an "interceptor" for the USAF.


Earlier jet interceptors including the F-89 all had limitations, and many suffered from the "guns are no longer needed mantra" and the unguided 2.75 inch folding fin rocket was hardly the best weapon for hitting a small enemy aircraft (or errant drone).


Yes even the iconic Javelin and EE Lightning had limitations...

[OK465]

and the initial intercept occurred at 30,000 ft., the F6F drone was probably doing less than 300 kts. The F-89D Scorpion was capable of just over 550 kts in level flight.

You'd have to be an 'Einstein' to calculate how to employ unguided rockets effectively under these conditions......oh wait.

(BTW in the apples and oranges department, 550 kts cal is 1.36 mach at 30K)

[Heathrow Harry]

did anyone compare the cross-section of the Hellcat to that of a MiG-19?

[MPN11]

sandiego89 ... I have no doubt that the USAF had/has some very capable aircraft and indeed crews. I was thinking more in the context of their employment in CONUS, where perhaps they got/get rather less practice than we did/do in the UK.

Apologies if my comment caused offence.

PS: Glad to see the VA weather is cooling down a bit. Arriving 31 Aug for 2 weeks vacation/shopping in Alexandria ;)

[Wageslave]

I'm intrigued at the sort of spin that glorifies a whole series of ignominiously unsuccessful (bungled) slow time, unopposed attacks with state-of-the-art weaponry wielded by alleged specialists on a totally unresponsive target in broad daylight as a "battle".

Battle for credibility perhaps...

[sandiego89]

sandiego89 ... I have no doubt that the USAF had/has some very capable aircraft and indeed crews. I was thinking more in the context of their employment in CONUS, where perhaps they got/get rather less practice than we did/do in the UK.

Apologies if my comment caused offence.

PS: Glad to see the VA weather is cooling down a bit. Arriving 31 Aug for 2 weeks vacation/shopping in Alexandria ;)


No worries, thank you. Yes I think you will find there were some quality crews, and yes perhaps they did not get as many real intercepts, and fortunately no chance to sling Genies at a real massive bomber hoard coming over the top, but they knew what they were doing.


It has indeed cooled down. You should make a point to get to the Smithsonian Udvar Hazy complex near Dulles airport- not to be missed. Enjoy the visit!- Dave

[MPN11]

Cheers sandiego89 ... This will be our 22nd vacation in the area, so guess what ... been there, done that [and revisited the rather lesser one in the District last year] ;)

[sandiego89]

I'm intrigued at the sort of spin that glorifies a whole series of ignominiously unsuccessful (bungled) slow time, unopposed attacks with state-of-the-art weaponry wielded by alleged specialists on a totally unresponsive target in broad daylight as a "battle".

Battle for credibility perhaps...


Perhaps consider it as sarcasm rather than spin or glorification. Note the "Battle of Los Angeles" also commonly known as the "Great Los Angeles Air Raid" a few years prior, which may have been UFO's, the Japanese, balloons or perhaps much to do about nothing..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Los_Angeles