Avro Lancastrian Tales

[AirportsEd]

I know the Avro Lancastrians' years of service were relatively short-lived and a very long time ago but I have always had a soft spot for the type.
Are there any former Avro Lancastrian guys or girls still out there who can (politely!) tell us what they were like to operate or maintain?
Ed

[Planemike]

You might try Keith Hayward at British Airways Museum/Archive. He is ex BSAA who operated Lancastrians.

[AirportsEd]

Thanks Planemike,
I have thought about visiting the museum many, many times but never actually done it.
Must get round to it!
Ed

[Phoenix1969]

This mention of Lancastrian reminds me of the intriguing story of how one of them disappeared over the Andes in 1947, albeit the incident did NOT happen because of the aircraft type -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_BSAA_Avro_Lancastrian_Star_Dust_accident

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/sep/06/owenbowcott1

BBC News | UK | Lost plane found in Andes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/618829.stm)

[Planemike]

Thanks Planemike,
I have thought about visiting the museum many, many times but never actually done it.
Must get round to it! Ed


Ed, Do make the effort to go, well worth it. Fascinating archive. PM

[AirportsEd]

Thank you Phoenix.
I do remember reading about the Stardust crash and seeing a TV documentary about it once. Hadn't realized I had coincidentally started the thread on its anniversary.

Thank you Mike; I will sort it out!
Ed

[tiny fireburn]

Have you come across the book 'Stardust Falling' by Jay Rayner (Doubleday)? Its about the loss of Lancastrian Stardust and is a good read. Recommend it:

[Phoenix1969]

Have you come across the book 'Stardust Falling' by Jay Rayner (Doubleday)?

I have now - thanks. Just ordered a copy on Amazon!

BTW, did anyone ever get to the bottom of why they transmitted that 'STENDEC' message, or is that covered in the book?

[AirportsEd]

Hello Tiny,
No, I hadn't heard of it, that's a welcome surprise to me.
I will get a copy.
Thanks,
Ed.

[ancientaviator62]

Was not the reported 'STENDEC' message a mishearing of the morse message sent by the a/c which was 'Star Tiger Descending' ?

[Wander00]

STENDEC?????

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Many theories as to its meaning explored here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vanished/sten_send.html)..

[Tu.114]

There are some tales about day-to-day life on the BSAA Lancastrian in the book "Comets and Concordes (and those I flew before)" by Peter Duffey.

[AirportsEd]

Thanks Tu144,
Another book I hadn't heard of.
Stardust Falling should drop through my letterbox in a day or so.
I will chase up a copy of Comets and Concordes!
Ed

[ancientaviator62]

Wander,
as you will know the morse for E is a single dit and the morse for A is dah dit. The thought was that in fact it should have been read as a single morse letter dit dah dit. Which is R. So the message would be 'STRDEC and not STENDEC. As morse is one of the 'modern' shorthand texting systems this theory (not mine) seems to make as much sense as any other. As a Radio Amateur I have more than once misread a transmission in a similar manner especially when conditions were difficult. We will never know for certain of course.

[Wander00]

Sometimes you wish you had not asked..........but thanks anyway!"

[Phoenix1969]

My copy of 'Star Dust Falling' arrived today!

Many thanks to tiny fireburn for making me aware of it. Nice writing style, too. Really flows.

A good excerpt from the book, that Ppruners may relate to, is a joke concerning the slogans of the competing airlines in those days:

BOAC will take good care of you.
BEA will get you there and back again.
BSAA will inform your next of kin.

[Geordie_Expat]

Wander,
as you will know the morse for E is a single dit and the morse for A is dah dit. The thought was that in fact it should have been read as a single morse letter dit dah dit. Which is R. So the message would be 'STRDEC and not STENDEC. As morse is one of the 'modern' shorthand texting systems this theory (not mine) seems to make as much sense as any other. As a Radio Amateur I have more than once misread a transmission in a similar manner especially when conditions were difficult. We will never know for certain of course.

Not surprised you misread if you think dah dit is A :) Try N.

[Fantome]

No .. . 'A' is a short and a long.

cue for - three dits…four dits . . . two dits . . . dah

[AirportsEd]

My copy of Star Dust Falling also arrived today (but haven't had chance to read it yet).
So it's thanks from me too Tiny!

[Herod]

Just beware. There are two books on the river site. Star Dust Falling is the one you want. Stardust Falling is different, the story of a B17 pilot and his escape through occupied Europe. Good I'm sure, but not the book you want.

[albatross]

What is the difference in morse between STANDEC and STANDBY

Any chance of confusion there?

[sablatnic]

STANDEC: ... - .- -. -.. . -.-.
STANDBY: ... - .- -. -.. -... -.--

Morse Code Translator (http://morsecode.scphillips.com/translator.html)

[albatross]

Thanks for the morse translation

[sablatnic]

Thanks for thanks.

I couldn't remember the morse, so used the translator, and linked to it - others might need it too.

I have wondered about the STANDEC too, maybe turbulence caused him to send nonsense.

[avionic type]

Practically the same as the bomber except for the pointy nose and tail cone, side windows,
and I think the galley was between the 2 spars cannot remember where the Radio op went [I may be getting mixed up with the Halton ] and on the ones I worked on had the seats facing the centre of the cabin aisle which ran the whole length of the right hand side and carried about 12 people ,
The down side of maintenance were the 2 spars, real shin bashers they were unlike the aircrew we didn't have flying boots or suits for protection a twin wire electrical system but I was a 16/17 year old apprentice/improver with B.O.A.C in 1947/48. and the Queen of the sky's was the 049 Connie .
if I'm shot down in flames over memory please forgive age is galloping past.

[AirportsEd]

Hello Avionic Type,
Thanks for that. I believe the earliest Lancastrians had nine sideways (starboard)-facing seats and three bunk beds above. The nine seats also acted as three floor level beds.
Later airframes had more seats and traditional side-by-side layouts.
The galley area on the nine-seater aircraft was sandwiched between the rear spar and the front of the passenger cabin.
Do you have any other memories about working on the Lancastrian?
Ed

[Phoenix1969]

Hello all. Can't believe I am posting on something so obscure, but am half way through the Star Dust Falling book and have to admit it's a good read.

Interestingly, the W/op sent the STENDEC message 3 times - after the 1st time the control tower asked him to repeat it, obviously confused - and he did, 2 more times. Doesn't sound like a mistake, does it?

There is also mention of a previous BSAA Lancastrian flight where one of the passengers had a seizure and the captain asked what her husband was doing. "At the back, smoking", came the answer. What was at the back of the Lancastrian, where the tail gun turret was? Would have made a good observation place, no?

Anyone got any pics of Lancastrian interiors? There were 59 converted in total, BTW.

[AirportsEd]

Hello Phoenix,
All the former gun turret positions were faired over so there was no rearward view – just a solid tail cone. In addition, the rear freight hold was located between the tail cone and the rear of the cabin where the toilet was located.
Ed

[megan]

There were 59 converted in totalFrom figures I have, 4 were converted Lancasters, and 71 built from the outset as Lancastrians, 4 Canadian built Lancasters converted to Lancastrians came onto the British register also, don't know how many others the Canadians may have converted, though Trans-Canada Air Lines operated 9. Have the British built serials if anyone interested.Anyone got any pics of Lancastrian interiors?Send a PM Phoenix and I'll bung one over.

[Phoenix1969]

If anyone wants to read more about the Lancastrian, see the picture of the cabin, plus these PDFs of a magazine article about a flight in one. Megan kindly provided / put me onto these!

[Phoenix1969]

Finished reading the book last night. Bl00dy fascinating.

BBC - Horizon, 2000-2001, Vanished: The Plane That Disappeared (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01z2vhg)

Not sure if it works from outside the UK, I tried looking for it on youtube and the only one I could find had been removed due to a copyright claim from the ever-vigilant BBC.

Last post from me on this

[avionic type]

The pictures of the Flaps etc. shows the dreaded Janitrol Cabin Heater it ran if my memory is correct ran on neat 100 octane fuel straight from the wing tank which was ignited by a spark/glow plug and ran like an over blown blow lamp which heated up a canister and cold air passed around it and was hopefully heated up and blown into the cabin, the exhaust went over the side at the external end of heater leaving an ugly sooty stain down the side of the a/c,{[where was health and safety then? they were lethal,unreliable at not very effective same for the loading steps at the nose. the last aircraft I worked on having a similar system was the Airspeed Ambassador but that was for the Anti Icing of the leading edges of the wings and tail plane only. The External supply socket was I think up in the starboard wheel well and you had to stand on top the wheel to connect and disconnect the heavy trollyac lead, just the job on a icy cold morning you tended to comedown faster than you went up.

[good spark]

i worked as a contractor for dan air at lasham in the mid seventies there was a york there then, anyone know what happened to it sorry for thread drift
gs

[Mike6567]

BSAA Lancastrian Flight Deck 1947
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/1947%20Lancastrian_zpsrjpcunsb.jpg

From my dad's old photos. Not sure about the seat the stewardess is sitting in?

[AirportsEd]

Thank you Phoenix.
I remember that I watched the programme when it was first released but I had forgotten much of the detail. Given that about 15 years have passed since the Star Dust remains were found, does anyone know if the mountain has given up any further parts of wreckage? (Perhaps the location is so remote that nobody has revisited the site since?)
avionic type - thanks for the note about the Janitrol cabin heater. Do you know if this the same piece of equipment that was put forward as a possible cause of the two subsequent BSAA Tudor losses..or was that a different type of heater?
Regards,
Ed

[AirportsEd]

good spark,
It is now in the Airspace Hangar at Duxford and still in Dan Air colours.
Ed

[AirportsEd]

Nice picture Mike6567!
Do you have any others?

[good spark]

airports ed
many thanks for that now ill have to go and say hello to the old girl!!





gs

[Mike6567]

This is a photo from 1947 - not sure when or where
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/1947%20Lancastrian%20cabin_zpswaj13vgu.jpg
Other photos in "Both Feet in the Air" by Archie Jackson
and "Fly With the Stars" by Susan Ottaway and Ian Ottaway

[avionic type]

Mike, the Goddess was sitting in a seat for the Co Pilot that hung on a pivot on the side of the "Cockpit "/ Flight deck wall it could be lowered to allow the Navigator to get to his office in the nose section the flight controls were joined by a control bar from yoke to yoke , rudder peddles were joined under the floor,
If the Lady is any relation to you please forgive me all stewardesses were goddesses to me at my callow youth stage of the teens

[AirportsEd]

gs - I am sure you will enjoy it. Having received lots of TLC from the Duxford Aviation Society she is in great condition.
Visitors can step inside the fuselage on most weekends (and, I think, school holidays) as DAS often has a volunteer on duty to answer visitor's questions.
Ed

[Phoenix1969]

(not quite, evidently) last post from me on this - thanks a lot, Mike - the people pics really bring it alive!

The Lancastrian, as with all conveyances whether wheeled, winged or floating, was/is primarily a human thing, giving rise to experiences and meetings that wouldn't have happened without it.

Avionic Type - have you heard what some of the BSAA Stargirls used to get up to?!

[AirportsEd]

Hello planemike,
Just wanted to say thank you for the suggestion that I should visit the BA museum and speak to Keith. I have had that pleasure now. He has many fascinating stories and recalls them as if they were yesterday...
Ed

[avionic type]

Phoenix 1969 ,as a young lad my contact with Glamorous Stewardesses was virtually nil, as they were private school, Swiss finishing, Debs,photos in THE TATLER in twin set and pearls, they were well above MY station in life AND DEFINATLY Captain /aircrew fodder, only though talking to ex stewardesses of the 60s and beyond I believe Lovely times were the order of the day on a "stop over 5 day Slip on a far eastern island " now alas gone with long range A/C they are lumbered with the flying Wendy House which is 1 step up from the back row 4 seats in economy .
As for BSSA girls as I was BOAC I never saw one Sorry

[Planemike]

AirportsEd.... Have PM'd you.

[AirportsEd]

With regards to BSAA's Star Girls, I believe the airline's first had been an ATA pilot who, after doing a few trips, including the inaugural, decided to leave the company and return to some kind of pilot work. Don't know who she went to work for though. The ATA had stood down by then.

Thanks for the message Planemike.

[WHBM]

Richard Branson's mum is probably the best known former BSAA Stargirl. Her autobiography front cover has her standing in front of a Lancastrian (which I believe is an actual BSAA publicity photo, not a composite, as I saw it years ago the same.


https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbookstore.authorhouse.com%2FConte nt%2FSite301%2FProductImages%2FSKU-000613717.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.authorhouse.co.uk%2FBookstore%2FB ookDetail.aspx%3FBookId%3DSKU-000613717&docid=npdHHnS0heYp2M&tbnid=qr09E1hDCB7G8M%3A&w=330&h=494&bih=628&biw=1366&ved=0ahUKEwiAqMzB6t7OAhWIIMAKHfOhCEkQMwgmKAQwBA&iact=mrc&uact=8

[AirportsEd]

Thanks WHBM, I never knew that!
Another book to read!
Ed

[AirportsEd]

I have been trying to find out the date of the very last Avro Lancastrian flight.
Wikipedia says 1960, which sounds rather late to me, but perhaps that was one of the engine test bed airframes.
Does anyone know when the last commercial Lancastrian flight was?

[WHBM]

According to my notes the last Lancastrians were withdrawn in 1951. BOAC had a few which just lasted until early that year, while the last user of all seems to be Flight Refuelling, whose fleet of them finished in the autumn. Both doubtless just for freight at the time, the FR ones as aerial tankers.

[Planemike]

The time frame given by WHBM seems to fit in with the information I have gleaned. I have checked AJJ's Avro book and also BCA Vol 1. VM733 was still flying at Bitteswell in June 54. This was a test bed for a pair of Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire engines: airframe converted by AST Hamble January 1950. Also shown in the Avro book is a photograph of T-102 of the Argentine Air Force. The photograph was taken on 24 May 1960. The aircraft appears to be airworthy/operational. So Wikipedia may well be correct.

[AirportsEd]

Many thanks WHBM and Planemike.
I hadn't thought about the Argentinian aircraft as I was focused upon airline operations.
Details of the last passenger service are certainly elusive!
Ed

[WHBM]

Also shown in the Avro book is a photograph of T-102 of the Argentine Air Force. The photograph was taken on 24 May 1960. The aircraft appears to be airworthy/operational.
Moot point whether this was a Lancastrian. Another Lancastrian, RAF TX289, new 1946, was sold in 1947 to Argentinian airline of the times FAMA (who also bought Shorts flying boats at the same time), they ran it for a year, then sold it to the Air Force, who used it for a couple of years as their T-65 (T=Transport) until 1950 when it was withdrawn with corrosion. It then seems to have sat around until 1958 when the "Lancastrian mods" were taken off it (presumably they weren't the corroded parts) and applied to Argentinian Air Force Lancaster B-045 (B=Bomber) which was ex-RAF Lanc RA378 sold in 1949. It was renumbered T-102, and crashed on 11 December 1960 with 31 fatalities. Seems a lot of fatalities for a Lancastrian lost en route, unless there were some on the ground.

ASN Aircraft accident Avro Lancaster B.1 T-102 San Andrés de Giles, BA (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19601211-2)

[AirportsEd]

Yes, supposedly 23 passengers and 8 crew. It must have been very cramped.
Thanks,
Ed

[Shackman]

Janitrol Heater - same system as we had on the Shackleton (but was it still called that).

[avionic type]

Thank goodness their flying lives were short like the Halifax /Halton they were wildly expensive to fly and let's face were meant to be bombers, hoisted onto the airlines as there were no Dollars to buy commercial aircraft from America our aircraft industry were still suffering from lack of funding , and trying to go over to civilian planes even the Viking was a Wellington shape with a stressed ally body with fabric wings until the mark 1a was developed but a lot of it was Wimpy even that had the spar running through the cabin , the up side was business men used to scramble to certain seats to catch a glimpse of a stocking top plus suspender as the stewardess stepped over them . Sorry about the Drift back to the fatalities, wrong aircraft ,lack of flying aids ,poor autopilot only good for straight and level, increase of pilot fatigue, bad weather.

[avionic type]

Shackman were you on 1,2,or 3sI was on 1s at Gibraltar, perhaps we had better start a new thread.

[AirportsEd]

Hello avionic type.
Can you remember if spares were in short supply when you worked on BOAC Lancastrians? I was told it was a significant issue for BSAA.
Ed

[Herod]

Viking was a Wellington shape with a stressed ally body

I used to tell my young FOs that I had flown the Varsity. "What's a Varsity?"

"It's an aluminium-skinned Wellington with a nosewheel" "What's a Wellington?"

You can't get the wood these days, you know.

[Phoenix1969]

Finally back from holiday, and managed to scan and OCR some of 'Star Dust Falling'. Maybe not quite as juicy as my original 'Have you heard what some of the BSAA Stargirls used to get up to?!' suggested though!

'Even the stewardesses were called Stargirls. On this flight (BSAA's inaugural, on 1 Jan 1946) it was a young woman called Mary Guthrie, for whom the job was a bit of a comedown given her expertise. During the war she had been a pilot, ferrying aircraft between workshops and airfields. Now, in peacetime, she had to take what she could get, and upperclass skivvying for BSAA at least promised travel and had a certain cinematic glamour.

It didn't promise comfort. The cabin was just 1.82 metres wide and 1.9 metres high. At the front, behind the flight deck, was a cramped galley from where the girls, sometimes in pairs, usually working alone, were to serve defrosted meals called 'Frood', which had been prepared by the Lyons Tea House company. It was, the Stargirls would all eventually agree, pretty foul stuff. Most of them would avoid eating the hideous versions of chicken a la king or veal blanquette prepared for the passengers. Instead they made do with endless cups of tea sweetened with condensed milk, or the soup and orange juice which they carried in vacuum flasks for the passengers. At first washing up the china - and it always was china - was a chore. There was just a sink with cold water and no detergent, nor anywhere to put the dishes when they were done. Only later would the company start offloading the unwashed crockery at each stopover. As to drink, there was a box bar containing spirits plus a good supply of raw Chilean red wine which, for some reason, the passengers didn't appreciate. As time passed and the flights became routine, some of the more worldly Stargirls took to finishing off the bottles in the galley during the endlessly dull stretches when there was nothing to do, filling their mouths with peppermints afterwards to hide the smell.

And then there were the opportunities for free enterprise. The Stargirls and crew were paid their expenses at the rate of 17 Argentinian pesos to the pound, but in the change shops of Buenos Aires you could get a rate of 10 pesos. Those with Spanish and initiative in equal measure would make for the change shops to cash up the moment they landed. When BSAA routes extended to the West Indies one Stargirl called Jean Fowler, an Anglo-Argentinian who had taken the job to avoid going back to teaching after years in the women's auxiliary air force, discovered there was profit to be made elsewhere. She could pick up bottles of Johnny Walker and Black Label whisky in the grocery shops of Bermuda for five shillings. She then resold them in the nightclubs of Santiago, Chile, for the equivalent of £8. She bought beautifully stitched crocodile handbags, just the one a trip, to be resold in Britain at a massive profit, and even a fur coat, which she claimed to British customs was her own. Half a century later she looks back at her life of petty crime, shifting contraband back and forth across the borders of Latin America, with curiosity. 'Frankly I don't know why every girl didn't do it,' she says. 'It was so simple. But then they didn't all have a lot of gumption.' To work as a Stargirl for BSAA you had to be unmarried and of 'a certain class'. The airline only wanted what they defined as 'nice girls' and while some like Jean had come to adulthood during the curious freedoms of the war, for many others BSAA was their first job after leaving home. They would no sooner have taken to a little bit of smuggling on the side than they would have sworn in church.'

And this further extract from 'Two Feet In The Air':

Most of (the Stargirls) came directly to the airline from the W.A.A.F. or W.R.N.S. and some of them spoke Spanish or Portuguese having originally been volunteers from South America. B.S.A.A. was one of the first British airlines to employ stewardesses and there were considerable numbers of applicants for the few vacancies. Their pay was pitifully low, under three pounds a week. One of them related to me an account of her interview prior to her acceptance by the airline. She was told very bluntly that she would always have her own room when on service and a key to lock it. Accordingly the Company did not wish to hear of any complaints by girls of propositions by amorous pilots. Girls came cheaply and were easily replaced. Good licensed pilots were a rare breed and would not be dispensed with for frivolous reasons. "On my first trip," she said, "I locked the door and wedged a chair against the lock but nothing untoward threatened. So next trip I just locked the door. After my third trip my morale was really shattered. I gave up locking the door and took to looking up and down the passage and wondering what everyone else was doing'.

Can scan and OCR plenty more if anyone is interested - 'Two Feet In The Air' has quite a bit of detail about BSAA. Just check out the pictures of how BSAA's Ops HQ and the passenger handling marquee at LHR looked in 1947! Puts T5 to shame, doesn't it?!

[AirportsEd]

Hello Phoenix,
Who is the author of Two Feet in the Air? (Yet another book I have not heard of).
Ed

[Phoenix1969]

Hi AirportsEd

I hadn't heard of it either until reading this thread.

He's called Archie Jackson - see below. Writing style very 'Boys Own Paper' but entertaining all the same.

[AirportsEd]

Ha! You mean 'Both Feet in the Air'!
Typing 'Two Feet in the Air' into a well-known search engine took me to a quite different book!

[Phoenix1969]

Hahaha - sorry for that. Must have been some Freudian element going on in my mind!

[avionic type]

Airports Ed As I picked up the Lanc at LAP/LHR/Heathrow and was a Hanger Brat I can't comment on the spares situation we seemed to manage . but prior to the Lanc I worked the Halton/Haslifax both in the Hanger and workshop at Bovingdon and a lot of Spares were obtained from brand new Halifaxes which were being scrapped, Retested and recertified by certified inspectors and fitted to the aircraft when needed , if that was carried out on the Lancs I Don't know he only thing which wasn't tested were the Time Delay fuses for the Engine fire system, when you pressed the fire extinguisher button it fired the 1st of 3 bottles into the carburettor also set a BURNING fuse which 5 seconds later blew bottles 2 and3 which Hopefully extinguished any flame around the engine.Don't think they would allowthat these days.

[Mike6567]

You will also get lots of information on BSAA operations from a very detailed article by Don Brown in Air Pictorial Nov 1974 and Dec 1974.
Most detail about the Lancastrian in the Nov 1974 edition.
Both available at this time on ebay.
Mike

[WHBM]

You will also get lots of information on BSAA operations from a very detailed article by Don Brown in Air Pictorial Nov 1974 and Dec 1974Same chap also wrote at length about BSAA and its various types in Propliner in the late 1980s, I believe he was a senior employee there.

[AirportsEd]

Thanks avionic type, very interesting.
Do you know where those new Halifaxes were being scrapped? I wondered if it was a case of 'you' having the entire aircraft on site and taking what you needed or whether the parts were being delivered to you from a dedicated salvage company or even direct from the manufacturer or RAF.

Thanks Mike6567 - will take a look...
Thanks WHBM - must climb up in the loft and find my old Propliner copies...those articles must have been deleted from my memory over the years!

[Phoenix1969]

Airportsed / all - anything you find, pls post it up on here. This has turned out to be one of the best threads I've seen on pprune!

[WHBM]

must climb up in the loft and find my old Propliner copies
My loft scaled.

It's in Propliner 22 (Spring 85), article "Star Memories". Just four pages but interesting stuff. Brown writes that he had been at Miles Aircraft, seemingly as a company/test pilot (his article on the Aerovan is in issue 23), but after they went bust in 1947 he moved to BSAA in charge of pilot documentation. And from his stories, they needed it.

[avionic type]

Airports Ed, Though I wasn't one of the BOAC gang I believe spare parts lists were submitted to the Air Ministry and permission was given I believe to remove them from brand new Halifax's at I think ,White Waltham where they were being scrapped, all I remember was we had a lot of different spares going through the Electrical /Instrument at that time they must have had paper work to be transferred to civilian use and be recertified .
the talk at the time was the planes had to be built as per contract test flown and then sent for scrap why the didn't scrap all the old planes the RAF were flying and given the brand new ones words fail me I met up with the Halifax again with 224 Squadron at Gibraltar and the were a heap of rubbish thank goodness we got the Shackleton 8 months later

[AirportsEd]

Thanks AT,
Many years ago I heard a virtually identical story about brand new Halibags begin test-flown for the first time immediately before scrapping, though I cannot remember where that was supposed to have taken place. The explanation I was told was that the contract to build them (not surprisingly) required them to be delivered in airworthy condition and, upon delivery, if any were found to be unfit to fly, the Air Ministry was able to avoid paying for the airframe and could simply reject it. If the aircraft was deemed airworthy right away, it was considered 'paid for' and then (sadly) sent for scrap. Don't know for sure if that is true, but that is what I was told and it would seem to fit in with what you remember. As you say though, it doesn't explain why old ones were kept and new ones destroyed. Could it have been something to do with whatever mod state was required by the airline? Just a guess...
Ed

WHBM,
Excellent, thanks again!

[VeeEffAre]

I think 'Off the Beam' by Donald Chandler (...Memoirs of an Aircraft Radio Operator) also covers the BSAA accident. Chandler tells of a career shift from maritime wireless operator pre-WW2 to aircraft radio maintainer and operator at Croydon etc, to Ferry Command in WW2 then to BSAA after the war...and other tales. 2nd Hand copies on Am***n

[AirportsEd]

Thanks VFR - Yet another book I had not heard of!
The river site must love me at the moment!
Ed

[Mike6567]

"Off the Beam" is by Robert Chandler - printed in 1969 but obtainable from AbeBooks or Amazon

Also another book not mentioned so far is by Archie Jackson "Can Anyone See Bermuda" with several chapters on BSAA.

Mike

[Phoenix1969]

Mike - so Archie J wrote two books, did he? 'Both Feet in the Air' and then 'Can Anyone See Bermuda'?

Rather surprising, esp as 'Both Feet in the Air' appeared to cover his time @ BSAA.

[Mike6567]

Yes Phoenix, Archie Jackson had a very interesting career with BSAA, BOAC and BA. He wrote "Both Feet in the Air" in 1976 about the time of his retirement and went on to write several other books including "Pathfinder Bennett" (1991).
"Can Anyone see Bermuda" - Memories of an Airline Pilot was published in 1997 and is complimentary to his earlier book.
Mike

[AirportsEd]

He does seem to have been quite a prolific writer.
Does anyone know if he is still alive?
Ed

[Planemike]

This maybe of interest......http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0y4AAO...P6/s-l1600.jpg (http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0y4AAOSwYSlXh6P6/s-l1600.jpg)

[Phoenix1969]

Planemike - good pic, thanks for sharing. I see the ex-bomb bay made a handy storage place for the spare wheel!

[Herod]

Are you sure that's not nose-gear, for the days when it's trimmed nose-heavy?;)

[Phoenix1969]

Are you sure that's not nose-gear, for the days when it's trimmed nose-heavy

Herod - from what I've read about BSAA's safety record, anything was possible :eek:

'Stardriver' sounds like a name BSAA would have given to its pilots though :D

[AirportsEd]

Thanks Planemike,
Does anyone recognise where that picture was taken?
Those houses in the background might be recognisable to someone...?

[Herod]

Phoenix. I agree with you. Reading "Star Dust Falling", the fatality figures are horrendous.

For every 100 million passenger miles flown by BOAC, 2.3 passengers had died in crashes, all North American carriers averaged 3.78. BSAA's figure was 61.6.

Or put another way, with BOAC, one passenger had died for every 18,900 flown. BSAA was killing one passenger for every 385 that they flew.

I think Don Bennett had a lot to answer for.

Oh, and thanks for the "Stardriver" link. The reason for that is that my airline at the time I put up a sub-name featured stars as part of its logo and callsign.

[avionic type]

Anybody Know where BSAAs Base was before it came to Heathrow looks like they were preparing a brand new Lancastrian ] for a proving flight and the wheel [which looks like a Lanc main wheel for ballast]and I'm sure they wouldn't fly passengers with bomb gear on board fuel tanks yes, and the nose cone is missing looking hard at the photo it doesn't look like the area of Number 1 hanger BSAAs base at Heathrow , BOAC were in 2,3,and 4 hangers next door

[DaveReidUK]

Langley, perhaps ?

[Phoenix1969]

Avionic / Dave Reid - can't answer for the background in that photo, but think Heathrow WAS BSAA's first airport. See this extract from 'Star Dust Falling':

'It had aircraft. It had pilots. All BSAA needed now was an airport from which to operate. Bennett knew exactly which one he wanted: out to the west of London was a new airfield still in the throes of development. There were no buildings to speak of or hangars for that matter but in time it would prove itself, Bennett was sure of that. The only immediate problem was the condition of the runway, which was covered with builders' materials. One morning in December 1945 he turned up to survey it. He was immediately stopped by the building foreman who wanted to know what he was doing there. Bennett asked if, in exchange for a few quid, he could get the runway cleared.

The foreman agreed that it could be done. The next day Bennett flew down from the A.V. Roe factory at Waddington in the first of the Lancastrians. There was no one manning the control tower that day because the control tower had not yet been built. Bennett simply looked out of the window to find his way to the airfield. Once down he went immediately to the Air Ministry in the centre of London and baldly announced to the civil servant in charge that he was ready to start services from the new airfield. The official demurred. BSAA was listed to fly from Hurn, near Bournemouth on the south coast. And in any case, the London airport wasn't ready for aircraft. Yes it was, Bennett said. He'd just landed there. And as he'd have to take off again, the service might as well start from there. The weary official agreed. Bennet had contrived to make BSAA the very first airline to operate out of that new London airfield which, in just a few years, would become known as Heathrow.'

Oh and Herod - another quote from 'Star Dust Falling' - already posted by me on this thread, but what the hell:

BOAC will take good care of you.
BEA will get you there and back again.
BSAA will inform your next of kin.

[Planemike]

Thanks Planemike,
Does anyone recognise where that picture was taken?
Those houses in the background might be recognisable to someone...?


The image has been discussed on the FlyPast forum and it has been identified as Heathrow Northside...........

[WHBM]

All BSAA needed now was an airport from which to operate. Bennett knew exactly which one he wanted: out to the west of London was a new airfield still in the throes of development. There were no buildings to speak of or hangars for that matter but in time it would prove itself, Bennett was sure of that. The only immediate problem was the condition of the runway, which was covered with builders' materials. One morning in December 1945 he turned up to survey it. He was immediately stopped by the building foreman who wanted to know what he was doing there. Bennett asked if, in exchange for a few quid, he could get the runway cleared.
I know it's in the book but this all sounds a bit far fetched, doesn't it ? If nothing else BSAA built up their substantial maintenance base with hangars (and Bennett's office) at Langley, a couple of miles west. They would ferry across to Heathrow for operations. As is well known Bennett launched the first Heathrow flight on 1 January 1946, at the formal opening ceremony with government officials and ministers present; that would be unlikely if just a couple of weeks before Bennett was having to resort to these oddball tactics to convince Whitehall.

[avionic type]

It must have been taken early 47 as when I arrived 47/48 the maintenance area with 4 hangers had been built and the North Side was taken over by American, European and UK airlines for arrivals and departures no heavy maintenance was carried out apart from turn round defects, all BOAC and BSAA were towed off to the maintenance area defects cleared and towed back again and refuelled on North Side, for foreign a/c they went to the south side of the airfield for heavy defects [engine changes etc.].One glorious memory was if I went over to the North Side in the morning the Pan Am and American airlines cabin crews used to give me copies of American newspapers with the funnies the odd pack of chewing gum and DONUTS, bliss , we were still on strict rationing in those days

[Sue Vêtements]

For every 100 million passenger miles flown by BOAC, 2.3 passengers had died in crashes, all North American carriers averaged 3.78. BSAA's figure was 61.6.

Or put another way, with BOAC, one passenger had died for every 18,900 flown. BSAA was killing one passenger for every 385 that they flewI don't understand that. If there are 2.3 fatalities every 100,000,000 miles wouldn't the fatality rate be just under 50,000,000 miles, not 18,900? (actually 43,478,261)

[Herod]

Don't know; I'm just quoting the book. Don't forget though that one figure is passenger MILES flown, the other is passenger NUMBERS

[AirportsEd]

Acquired a copy of Both Feet in the Air by Archie Jackson yesterday (thanks Phoenix). Have only had time for a brief look so far but he (born 1922) certainly flew some interesting types.
He records that he needed to do five take-offs and landings in a Lancastrian in order to be qualified on type.

[WHBM]

He records that he needed to do five take-offs and landings in a Lancastrian in order to be qualified on type.
In the Propliner article referred to earlier, author Don Brown, who was taken on at BSAA to manage pilot documentation records, wrote of some decidedly unofficial previous practices. One man was taken on from the RAF as an FO, qualified on Lancasters. One day he was assigned to a York to take it down to Africa. When he pointed out what appeared to be a scheduling error he was told "Oh, a York's not much different to a Lanc, on you go". With passengers on board !

[AirportsEd]

Thanks WHBM,
I still haven't found my copy of that yet - another read I am looking forward too!
Ed

[A30yoyo]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/7691137@N06/4631880489/in/photostream/
The Lanc or Lancastrian with the spare wheel in the bomb bay could be as early as 1946. Stephen Greensted has a set of a Lancastrian carrying King George of Greece from L.A.P North in September 1946
Click L or R on the lightbox display for the other pics

[AirportsEd]

Excellent set of photos!
Thanks for providing the link.
Ed

[AirportsEd]

Went to see a film evening at a local aviation club last night and there was some glorious colour footage (original film on a big screen rather than a video copy) of a Handley Page Halton being handed over by Sir Fred HP to BOAC at Radlett. After the handover, a group of dignitaries - including the local mayor in all his regalia - were taken for a short hop around the area. As would be expected, almost all of the pilots on hand for the event had their WW2 medals on their uniforms.
After the aircraft returned to Radlett and the passengers disembarked, the aircraft was then seen to depart again - presumably for LAP - flying past a line-up of RAF Halifaxes seen alongside the runway as it climbed out. Nice! I wonder if there is any similar Lancastrian footage out there somewhere.

[A30yoyo]

More LAP North (Heathrow) 1948
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/KL8AAOSw8gVX3aA0/s-l1600.jpg

[WHBM]

This is 10 minutes of what LHR looked like in 1946, including a range of the interesting types around at the time.

The opening, and departure of the first BSAA Lancastrian flight, with Bennett at the controls, on 1 Jan 46, is at 4.45 in the film.


London Airport | The National Archives (http://media.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php/london-airport/)

[Herod]

Fascinating. All those construction workers, and not a hard hat or hi-vis vest in sight. The removal of people from their homes though, hasn't changed.

[AirportsEd]

Excellent piece of film WHBM - many thanks for the link.
Having seen Herod's comment before watching it, I couldn't help but wonder if the guys with the pneumatic drills were wearing ear plugs or not...but perhaps they were already stone deaf after doing that job for years!

[AirportsEd]

Waddington perhaps?

[BSAA1947]

Phoenix. I agree with you. Reading "Star Dust Falling", the fatality figures are horrendous.

For every 100 million passenger miles flown by BOAC, 2.3 passengers had died in crashes, all North American carriers averaged 3.78. BSAA's figure was 61.6.

Or put another way, with BOAC, one passenger had died for every 18,900 flown. BSAA was killing one passenger for every 385 that they flew.

I think Don Bennett had a lot to answer for.


Sadly "Star Dust Falling" is responsible for a lot of misinformation about BSAA and is something of a character assassination of Don Bennett. Bennett's son was horrified when he read the book (having co-operated with the author fully at the research stage) as he felt his father was seriously misrepresented.

As for the accident figures, yes they are unquestionably very serious for BSAA, but the figures in the book are not accurate. From official sources the true figures are - for every 100 million miles flown by BOAC, 4 passengers had died (not 2.3), the figure was 11 for BEA and 48 for BSAA (not 61.6). Similarly, with BOAC one passenger had died for every 9,733 flown (not 18,900) and for BSAA the figure was 762 (not 385).

[BSAA1947]

Waddington perhaps?

Not sure of the airfield I'm afraid, although it's quite possibly Waddington as that's where this particular Lancaster was modified in early 1946. However it's a very nice photo of Lancaster 'Star Gold' and one I don't remember seeing before. Interesting.

[AirportsEd]

Hello BSAA1947,
Thanks. It is interesting that you say that aircraft was converted at Waddington.
I have long wondered if that kind of work was actually done at Waddington or nearby Bracebridge Heath and Waddington was merely the runway used to position the aircraft in and out. I know numerous aircraft were towed between the two sites via the A15 but I have never seen a picture of a Lancastrian making that particular journey.
Ed

[BSAA1947]

Your information may be more reliable than mine as I can't find my sources at the moment but I had noted in the BSAA fleet list on my website that the aircraft (a Lancaster remember, not a Lancastrian in this case) had been fitted with a Lancastrian style nose by A.V. Roe at Waddington. It had originally been loaned to BSAA and was only bought by them at the end of March 1947 when it was dismantled to be used for spares.

[DaveReidUK]

I have long wondered if that kind of work was actually done at Waddington or nearby Bracebridge Heath and Waddington was merely the runway used to position the aircraft in and out.

From Jackson's British Civil Aircraft Since 1919:

"Early in 1946 the British South American Airways Company took delivery of six Lancaster Is from the Ministry of Supply. Four of these were commissioned as freighters, the conversions being carried out at the works of A. V. Roe and Co. Limited at Bracebridge Heath".

G-AGUK was one of the four.

[BSAA1947]

Ah, good, thanks Dave. I'll update the fleet list on my website when I get a moment. AirportsEd, it looks like your information was correct!

[Mike6567]

For those interested in BSAA Lancasters
Sorry about the quality. Notice the bomb bay doors. Taken in Montevideo about 1947.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/Lancaster%20BSAA%20G-AGUM_zpsue4s71ao.jpg
Mike

[AirportsEd]

Thanks BSAA / Dave / Mike.
Was G-AGUM also one of the four Lancasters converted at Bracebridge?
Ed

[DaveReidUK]

Was G-AGUM also one of the four Lancasters converted at Bracebridge?

The batch converted at Bracebridge Heath were:

G-AGUJ "Star Pilot", ex PP689
G-AGUK "Star Gold", ex PP688
G-AGUL "Star Watch", ex PP690
G-AGUM "Star Ward", ex PP751

The other two of the six purchased that weren't converted to freighters were:

G-AGUN, ex PP744, later to BOAC as G-AHVN, then to Flight Refuelling
G-AGUO, ex PP746, subsequently returned to the RAF

[AirportsEd]

Thanks Dave.
I had had no idea that any Lancasters were converted at Bracebridge Heath, my Waddington guess re the photo is purely based upon the buildings you can see in the background.
Ed

[AirportsEd]

Hello Mike6567,
Regarding the Off The Beam book by Robert Chandler you mentioned a while back, do you have a copy, if so, would you recommend it?
I wondered if it had much Lancastrian or indeed flying content.
Regards,
Ed

[megan]

The batch converted at Bracebridge Heath wereDave, following conversion did they then become officially recognised as "Lancastrians"? In the Lancaster/Lancastrian listings I have they get no mention, other than noting the relevant Lancaster aircraft took up a civil registration.

[DaveReidUK]

No, the Lancastrian name was only applied to the passenger conversions. Those four freighters remained Lancasters.

[Planemike]

Just as an aside, if you take look at the ARB paper record sheets for G-AGUJ, K, L & M all are shown as "seventeen seater monoplanes". There seems little doubt they were only ever used as freighters.

[Mike6567]

Ed Re "Off The Beam" by Robert Chandler
The book has a few chapters on his time with BSAA and BOAC. Some interesting and amusing anecdotes. He was on the first flight from Heathrow January 1st 1946 in "Star Light" and there are several pages on this.
Not a lot of specific Lancastrian content.
Mike

[AirportsEd]

Thanks Mike,
I'd like to read those anecdotes so I will get a copy from the river site.
Regards,
Ed

[ricardian]

An article about a potential Lancaster restoration that may be of some interest (http://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/australian-company-seeks-exception-repair-lancaster-bomber.html)

[Phoenix1969]

An article about a potential Lancaster restoration that may be of some interest

Wow, all they have to do is replace the turrets with fairings and stick in a few seats and they can make a Lancastrian :D

But seriously - thanks for sharing. Hope they succeed.

[Herod]

Thanks for that update, ricardian. I knew about the plans for the Alberta museum, but didn't know they had fallen through. My guess is the aircraft is too far gone to be restorable, but who knows. Add to that "Just Jane", which is in much better nick, and we could have four Lancasters airworthy in a few year's time. Sixteen Merlins in close formation? Heaven.

[DaveReidUK]

Wow, all they have to do is replace the turrets with fairings and stick in a few seats and they can make a Lancastrian

Plus cutting an apparently random number of windows, which appeared to vary from airframe to airframe on the Lancastrian.

[Phoenix1969]

Plus cutting an apparently random number of windows, which appeared to vary from airframe to airframe on the Lancastrian.

Indeed, and the seat layouts were different from airframe to airframe on the Lancastrian too, as evidenced by some earlier pics on this thread.

[AirportsEd]

I know that later BOAC Lancastrians were fitted with more seats that the earliest ones but I guess the variation in seat layouts is also partly due to the fact that BOAC absorbed some of the BSAA machines which more than likely had a different cabin fit…?
Ed

[DaveReidUK]

I know that later BOAC Lancastrians were fitted with more seats that the earliest ones but I guess the variation in seat layouts is also partly due to the fact that BOAC absorbed some of the BSAA machines which more than likely had a different cabin fit…?

The early conversions had a single row of 9 sideways-facing seats (see photo in post #31), in fact the first ones only had windows on the starboard side.

Later Lancastrians had 13 forward-facing 2-abreast seats, separated by an aisle (see posts #40 and #61) and obviously had the windows on both sides.

[AirportsEd]

Thanks Dave,
I was thinking that perhaps the cabin 'fit' was also different between the two airlines before BSAA was absorbed...but I do not know for sure.
I had wondered if perhaps potential airline customers had a kind of Henry Ford-type choice regarding fixtures and fittings (seat/bed/galley type styles, etc) to begin with and it was only when more airframe conversions were being considered (and the airlines had more experience of what worked in the cabin layout and what didn't) that the changes were introduced. Obviously, the Lancastrian was only ever intended as a stop-gap until the purpose-built airliner types were ready so I wondered if much forward planning had taken place regarding what could be achieved in such a relatively small cabin.
Ed

[Umkubas]

Ed Re "Off The Beam" by Robert Chandler
The book has a few chapters on his time with BSAA and BOAC. Some interesting and amusing anecdotes. He was on the first flight from Heathrow January 1st 1946 in "Star Light" and there are several pages on this.
Not a lot of specific Lancastrian content.
Mike

In a previous post, you displayed a page of your father's BOAC log book. I am very interested in your father's Straticruisers flights and flights between London and Filton. Can I get in contact with you?

[Mike6567]

Umkubas
The flight was on a Constellation 049 though he does have quite a few entries for 377.
I have tried to send a PM but it won't let me. Can you send one to me?
Mike

[Herod]

I think pm's are blocked until a member has been in a certain time, or has a certain number of posts. It'll be in the rules somewhere.

[AirportsEd]

Hello Mike 6567,
Are there any more pictures in your collection that you can share?
Regards,
Ed

[Mike6567]

Will have a look but not so many Lancastrian photos left.
Below is interesting as although it was issued as a post card there is a caption below.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/GAGUM%20IMG_20161019_0001_zpse85igpno.jpg
"Fruit runs to Paris. Lancaster Freighter about to be loaded with 5 tons of peaches"

[rolling20]

Did anyone else titter at this line on the restoration story?....'Lancaster bombers were popular in World War II'.

[Wander00]

Not with the Germans I guess......................

[AirportsEd]

Excellent photo Mike.
I wonder which airfield it was taken at?
Thanks,
Ed

[Octane]

Out of interest does anyone know close the MOTAT Lancaster in NZ is to airworthiness if they were that way inclined?

[one11]

Excellent photo Mike.
I wonder which airfield it was taken at?
Thanks,
Ed
I have a copy of this postcard but without the caption. Text on the back names the site as Paris Le Bourget.

[A30yoyo]

The Ju-52 behind, actually an AAC.1 Toucan appears to be Air France's F-BALF which perhaps supports Le Bourget

[BSAA1947]

That is indeed a great photo of Star Ward. It didn't look so elegant after they fitted the freight pannier to it!

[one11]

While checking out Star Ward at Le Bourget, I identified some more Lancastrians on old postcards which I thought worth sharing.
1) BSAAC G-AGWL Star Guide at Santa Maria, Azores
http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu98/viscount700/lancastrian001_zpsgcf11ppc.jpg
2) Unidentified BOAC at Nairobi Eastleigh Airport
http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu98/viscount700/lancastrian004_zpspkzlj826.jpg
3) Flight Refuelling G-AKDP at Gander Newfoundland. The first civil Lancaster conversions were made in Canada and entered service with TCA transatlantic mail services in 1943. On displacement by Canadair DC-4M s they were sold to Flight Refuelling for use as tankers on the Berlin airlift. I guess the photographer just happened to capture this one on its delivery flight.
http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu98/viscount700/lancastrian002_zpsqackdmrd.jpg
4) Alitalia I-DALR - location unknown but, like on the Le bourget BSAAC, this airport was also using PSP perforated steel matting. This card was issued later by Alitalia in a fleet history set.
http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu98/viscount700/lancastrian003_zpsmcjavvaq.jpg

Too bad that although some of these are posted, none mention any Lancastrian flight experiences.

[Lee Howard]

Air-Britain are about to publish a book entitled 'From Lancaster to York' which covers, inter alia, the Lancastrian.

[A30yoyo]

Edit:I believe the forthcoming book is about the post-war development of the Lancaster, Lancastrian and York...not sure of the civil/ military split

[Mike6567]

Once again not so good quality - I think it is a copy of an official photo early 1946.
Star Light G-AGWG.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/G-AGWG%201946_zpsi59gi9ti.jpg

[AirportsEd]

Excellent photos again - thanks for sharing.
That BOAC one at Nairobi is glorious!
Who is the author of the forthcoming Air Britain book?
Ed

[Phoenix1969]

Who is the author of the forthcoming Air Britain book?

A Derek A King, apparently

Warbird Information Exchange ? View topic - Book Project "From Lancaster to York" (http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=47946)

I love this thread - it just keeps on going!

[A30yoyo]

The last photo of G-AGWG shows it climbing from 28R at Heathrow with the old Heathrow School on the Bath Rd visible .
The forthcoming book doesn't appear on Air Britain publicity yet and should not be confused with a book by Martin Derry on RAF Lancasters, Lincolns and Yorks.

[A30yoyo]

Good place to X-post this from the Key forum...a new STENDEC theory
An explanation of STENDEC ..... (http://www.flywiththestars.co.uk/Documents/STENDEC_Solved.htm)
.....(EDIT )this suggests the phrase read as STENDEC was transmitted as SCTI AR (SCTI being the new code for Santiago)

[Thomas Woodrooffe RN]

A30yoyo,


That link gives food for thought on the last message from Star Dust,


But,


The CW prosign A_R (._._.) is the morse code equivalent of the voice proword Out (end of my message, I do not expect a reply).


The CW prosign K (_._) is the morse code equivalent of the voice proword over (end of my message, I expect a reply).


As Star Dust's Radio Op was in a protracted exchange with Santiago; the ground station requesting a repeat twice (not understanding the last word "STENDEC"). Star Dust's Radio Op would be unlikely to end his message on 3 separate occasions with Out.


TW

[BSAA1947]

Good place to X-post this from the Key forum...a new STENDEC theory
An explanation of STENDEC ..... (http://www.flywiththestars.co.uk/Documents/STENDEC_Solved.htm)
.....reckoned to mean SCTI AR or ' Santiago....Over'

Thanks for linking to this. I was excited when I first received the email about this theory as I've seen so many theories about the "STENDEC" message over the years and at least 90% of them have bordered on the ridiculous! When I first read the email from Martin Colwell I thought "that's it" and was amazed at how simple it seems.

Ian

[Phoenix1969]

Am surprised the link to this book doesn't (acc to Google) appear to have been posted on this thread yet - Fly With The Stars - A History of BSAA (http://www.flywiththestars.co.uk/)

Anyone read it?

[WHBM]

Anyone read it?
It's sort of OK, but a bit lightweight.

[A30yoyo]

I think Ian in post#149 might have read it :-)

[Mike6567]

I did mention "Fly with the Stars" in post#40.
I think it excellent and a must for anyone interested in BSAA. It also has detailed information on all the aircraft operated by them.
Mike

[Props]

Lancastrian GAJWN expp741 used by BEA for Alitalia crew training
4/6/47 transfered to Alitalia 11/4/48
I flew on a BSAA aircraft on a local flight from Heathrow in48
We sat sideways all 9 seats on the Port side

[BSAA1947]

I think Ian in post#149 might have read it :-)

Many, many times .... :-)

[BSAA1947]

I did mention "Fly with the Stars" in post#40.
I think it excellent and a must for anyone interested in BSAA. It also has detailed information on all the aircraft operated by them.
Mike

Thanks Mike!

[AirportsEd]

Thanks for the author info Phoenix - I look forward to seeing it published.
I enjoyed reading Fly With the Stars too.

[India Four Two]

While looking at these very nostalgic photos, a thought just occurred to me.

Did the nose and tail fairings, and lack of a mid-upper turret, significantly improve the Lancastrian's performance, compared to the Lancaster?

[WHBM]

Did the nose and tail fairings, and lack of a mid-upper turret, significantly improve the Lancastrian's performance, compared to the Lancaster?
Seemingly so. The fast freighters run by BOAC in the late 1940s from London to Johannesburg and Sydney with just a handful of stops (tables 30 and 31 here), albeit lengthy overnight stops (probably the same crew throughout) were done with legs of around 2,000 nm, which I guess is well beyond a standard Lanc.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/ba49/ba49-09.jpg

[A30yoyo]

The extra fuel tanks including those in the bomb bay were the main reason for the improved range. What I'd like to read about is why the Lancastrian was imposed on BOAC instead of the more capacious York and any Air Ministry/diplomatic/industry correspondence on why the Transport Command Skymasters were returned to the USA in 1946 instead of being used to give BOAC a decent start post-war.

[WHBM]

BOAC (and BSAA) eventually had plenty of Yorks as well, although they came about a year after the Lancastrians, but the Lancastrian must have had some advantage. Was the York rather slow/shorter range ? It certainly looked a bit lumbering rather than sleek in comparison.

I understand that the RAF Transport Command Skymasters were not based in Britain, but in India (did many ever make it to the UK ?), and may well have been on loan rather than owned, so would have to be purchased, and with hard currency. Of course, everyone also thought the immediate postwar types like the Tudor were going to be an instant hit. It was hard enough to get foreign exchange for the handful of Lockheed Constellations, and those only because they were much more sophisticated, with pressurisation etc, and thus competitive with what the US carriers were going to use. This didn't apply to the Skymasters.

BOAC did however get a very large quantity of DC3s, a number later passed on to BEA but they retained a significant number themselves, which were used for a few years on routes like London to Cairo, and also based at points like Cairo itself, operating regional routes around the Middle East and down into Africa. These were generally ex-RAF as well, and I presume had already been purchased, as the RAF also kept a lot on, and a good number were just scrapped where they stood after WW2, so presumably of little value.

Roy Chadwick must have been absolutely downcast that, after the Lancaster huge success, and the workmanlike Lancastrian and York, the Tudor (still essentially a Lanc-plus) was such a fiasco. By the time one of the prototypes with him on board crashed in 1947, taking his life in the process, it must have been apparent what a poor bit of design it was.

[BSAA1947]

BOAC (and BSAA) eventually had plenty of Yorks as well, although they came about a year after the Lancastrians, but the Lancastrian must have had some advantage. Was the York rather slow/shorter range ? It certainly looked a bit lumbering rather than sleek in comparison.

Roy Chadwick must have been absolutely downcast that, after the Lancaster huge success, and the workmanlike Lancastrian and York, the Tudor (still essentially a Lanc-plus) was such a fiasco. By the time one of the prototypes with him on board crashed in 1947, taking his life in the process, it must have been apparent what a poor bit of design it was.

Yes, the York was inferior to the Lancastrian III in terms of speed, range, and climb rate.

As for the Tudor, it could never be called a successful aircraft but don't forget A. V. Roe wasted a tremendous amount of time and effort on minor design changes due to government and airline indecision and I'm not convinced the end product was such a poor design as people claim. I think it was a bit more than just a "Lanc-plus" though. It had slightly modified Lincoln wings, but an all new fuselage and many new systems, allowing it to become Britain's first pressurised airliner.

[Phoenix1969]

After today's tumultuous announcement, plus the aircraft shown in the still title frame, now looks like a good opportunity to post this run-through of LHR s history...

The history of Heathrow airport - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/37753262#video-37753262)

(the Tudor) had many new systems

Not ones that worked very well, acc to Star Dust Falling. The pressurisation and heating regularly failed, necessitating dropping to a few thousand feet to avoid freezing and suffocating the occupants and there is suspicion that at least one of the disappearances of the Tudors was due to the heater. Want me to OCR and post the relevant pages from Star Dust Falling?

Just found this on the relevant Wikipedia page, from BSAA's chief pilot and manager of operations, Gordon Store: "The Tudor was built like a battleship. It was noisy, I had no confidence in its engines and its systems were hopeless. The Americans were fifty years ahead of us in systems engineering. All the hydraulics, the air conditioning equipment and the recircling [sic] fans were crammed together underneath the floor without any thought. There were fuel-burning heaters that would never work; we had the floorboards up in flight again and again"

[Mike6567]

I have found a couple more Lancastrian photos - still poor quality I am afraid.
Taken in sequence over South America April 1946.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/Star%20Land%20Venezuela_zps8t06tf3g.jpg
Flight deck (or was it cockpit then?)

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/Lancastrian%20Radio%20Officer_zpssw1f3ba3.jpg
Radio Officer and Stewardess

Mike

[Herod]

I've just finished reading "Off the Beam", and that gives a good idea of the palatial accommodation given to the radio man.

[evansb]

Re The Radio Man: .. "If it werrren't for me head-phones, I'd be deef!" A known Shackleton aircrew refrain as well..

A fair lassie in the background by the way..

(yes, the latter comment would date me to be 60-ish year-old Scottish white male.) Scottish and white? That's redundant.

[FlightlessParrot]

(yes, the latter comment would date me to be 60-ish year-old Scottish white male.) Scottish and white? That's redundant.


As a totally OT remark, I heard Humza Yousaf being interviewed on the radio the other day. I know nothing more of him, but he sounded more like someone I might vote for than most of the people I'll be forced to elect in NZ.

[BSAA1947]

Want me to OCR and post the relevant pages from Star Dust Falling?

Just found this on the relevant Wikipedia page, from BSAA's chief pilot and manager of operations, Gordon Store: "The Tudor was built like a battleship. It was noisy, I had no confidence in its engines and its systems were hopeless. The Americans were fifty years ahead of us in systems engineering. All the hydraulics, the air conditioning equipment and the recircling [sic] fans were crammed together underneath the floor without any thought. There were fuel-burning heaters that would never work; we had the floorboards up in flight again and again"

Not on my behalf thank you. I'm well aware of Jay Rayner's views.

The Tudor is often said to have polarised opinion among its pilots. Yet the odd thing is that these well-used quotes from Gordon Store are totally at odds with the opinions of ALL the former Tudor pilots I spoke to. Without exception all the people I contacted who had first hand experience of flying the Tudor said it was fine. Nothing exceptional, but absolutely fine. In fact a couple described the Tudor 5 as being very pleasant to fly. I even asked Eric Brown some years ago for his opinion of the Tudor and he told me that once the small modifications to the engine nacelles and wing roots had been made (at the prototype stage) it was a very nice aircraft.

Incidentally, the heater design and layout were not unique to the Tudor by any means, but nobody ever seems to talk about the cabin heater in these other aircraft (DC-6 for instance).

The Tudor losses are also frequently used to support the claim that the aircraft was poor, and even dangerous. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe any of the Tudor accidents were ever categorically attributed to mechanical faults with the aircraft. Yet the accidents are cited as proof that the aircraft was a failure. Curious isn't it?!

[Discorde]

Why was the Tudor designed as a taildragger, against current trends in large transport aircraft design? Surely a tricycle version would not have been too complicated or expensive to engineer?

[BSAA1947]

Why was the Tudor designed as a taildragger, against current trends in large transport aircraft design? Surely a tricycle version would not have been too complicated or expensive to engineer?

An interesting question. I don't have a definitive answer, but I remember reading that it may have been a combination of two factors. Firstly, Roy Chadwick had a lot of experience with large, tailwheel aircraft and at the time it seemed sensible and expedient to stick with a proven layout for the new aircraft rather than adding to the time and development costs for a nosewheel design. Secondly, there is a small weight penalty for a tricycle undercarriage design as the nose undercarriage has to support a greater percentage of the overall weight of the aircraft therefore has to be a more substantial undercarriage structure than the tailwheel.

I'm not suggesting either of these were particularly valid reasons for not designing the Tudor with a nosewheel from the start, but merely putting them forward as the possible answer to the question.

The Nene powered Tudor 9 was of course designed from the outset with a tricycle undercarriage, and later became the Ashton.

[Allan Lupton]

Anent the tricycle undercarriage for some reason we in Britain came later to its use than the US designers. Our wartime aeroplanes used tailwheel undercarriages and logically so did their transport developments. However all the completely new types designed in response to the Brabazon Committee had the tricycle.
At de Havilland there was clearly some nervousness about the steering and a test rig was built with a Comet nose gear on a lorry chassis to investigate its behaviour. It must have been satisfactory as the Comet, Dove and Heron used it.

[A30yoyo]

They didn't hesitate with the Vampire... (and the Gloster E.28 (Whittle) and Meteor got nosewheels 'from scratch')

[Discorde]

Plenty of large taildraggers (including Lancastrians) on the Berlin Air Lift (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nHdB1vJNsg).

[Phoenix1969]

Anent the tricycle undercarriage - thanks, have learned a new word.

I shall use this at work the next time I want to use the words 'about' or 'concerning' and then have the pleasure of using lmgtfy.com on people when they ask "what does 'anent' mean?"

[AirportsEd]

Not much aircraft on view here but the caption says Captain Thiele en-route to Hong Kong in a Qantas Lancastrian.

[WHBM]

Not much aircraft on view here but the caption says Captain Thiele en-route to Hong Kong in a Qantas Lancastrian.I think there was only one, VH-EAS, bought from BOAC in 1947. I wonder why they bought an oddball.

[AirportsEd]

Thanks WHBM,
I did not realise there was only one Qantas Lancastrian.
I don't think I have ever seen a picture of it.
Ed

[WHBM]

Here it is

VH-EAS Avro 691 Lancastrian (http://www.aussieairliners.org/Avro/lancastrians/vh-eas.html)


My hunch would be that it was bought principally to maintain pilot currency and training, as well as making pioneering route trials. The BOAC Lancastrian fast service in 1947 to Australia required four aircraft (minimum) to hold down the thrice-weekly service, and the BOAC timetable states that it is "operated by Qantas" east of Karachi. This was just a continuation of the pre-war practice on the Empire Flying Boat service on the same route, which had also used Qantas crews on the British aircraft beyond Karachi. Qantas had its own fleet of Empire Boats, but to keep the crews up to currency on Lancasters must have been difficult without one. Notably the attached link states the aircraft was written off in 1949 while on a training detail.

[DaveReidUK]

I think there was only one, VH-EAS, bought from BOAC in 1947. I wonder why they bought an oddball.

Qantas had 4 Lancastrians:

VH-EAS Lancastrian I ex BOAC G-AGMD (1184) - Written off at Dubbo on 7th April 1949
VH-EAT Lancastrian I ex BOAC G-AGML (1191) - Broken up at Sydney in 1952
VH-EAU Lancastrian I ex BOAC G-AGLZ (1180) - No details known
VH-EAV Lancastrian III ex Silver City Airways G-AHBW (1291) - No details known

[India Four Two]

I noticed in the picture linked to by WHBM, that EAS has a sunshade in the cockpit roof. Was that a QANTAS mod or did other Lancastrians have it?

[Mike6567]

I noticed in the picture linked to by WHBM, that EAS has a sunshade in the cockpit roof. Was that a QANTAS mod or did other Lancastrians have it?The few photos I have take in BSAA Lancastrian cockpits they use maps clipped above etc to shade the sun - see post 165#

Also - for those with plenty of money there are two BSAA Log Books of a Radio Officer on sale on eBay at £400 each.

Mike

[megan]

QANTAS Lancastrians flew from Sydney to Gawler, stopping in Adelaide for refuelling, and on to Learmonth for the overnight stage. On the next leg of the trip, they flew to Ratmalana, where the aircraft refuelled, then on to Karachi, where BOAC crews took over for the final segment of the journey to the UK. The lengthening of the runway at Ratmalana enabled the diversion to Minneria to be eliminated, and soon Ratmalana was replaced by RAF Negombo. The service was renamed the Kangaroo Service and the passenger award became The Order of the Longest Hop. It was on this route that the Kangaroo logo was first used. After the war, the return trip could also go from Colombo to the Cocos Islands, then to Perth on to Sydney. These flights continued until 5 April 1946.

In 1947 flights to Tokyo via Darwin and Manila began. The DC-4 took over in 1949 I think. Don't know how many were converted to the Constellation engine transport role.

Dave, EAV was written off during a take off at Sydney 17 Nov 1951. EAU was scrapped Sep 1952, same date for EAT. Link here may be of interest.

http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/longest-airline-route-in-the-world-180959770/?no-ist

[AirportsEd]

Thanks for the photo and link Megan.
Had never seen any info or images about that Lanc conversion before; very interesting.
Ed

[DaveReidUK]

QANTAS Lancastrians flew from Sydney to Gawler, stopping in Adelaide for refuelling, and on to Learmonth for the overnight stage. On the next leg of the trip, they flew to Ratmalana, where the aircraft refuelled, then on to Karachi, where BOAC crews took over for the final segment of the journey to the UK. The lengthening of the runway at Ratmalana enabled the diversion to Minneria to be eliminated, and soon Ratmalana was replaced by RAF Negombo. The service was renamed the Kangaroo Service and the passenger award became The Order of the Longest Hop. It was on this route that the Kangaroo logo was first used. After the war, the return trip could also go from Colombo to the Cocos Islands, then to Perth on to Sydney. These flights continued until 5 April 1946.

Thanks for the additional background.

Do you mean that the crews swapped at Karachi, or that the BOAC and Qantas flights connected there and both aircraft turned round? If the QF Lancastrians continued to the UK (Heathrow?) with BOAC crews, there should hopefully be some photos of them at London kicking around somewhere.

Time for a bit more research ...

[AirportsEd]

Would it have been possible to sustain a route that involved the Lancastrians flying all the way to London if there were only four aircraft in the fleet?

[WHBM]

Since we started this discussion I have found a wide variety of references to how many Lancastrians Qantas had, from one (my original opinion from two separate sources, both hitherto reliable) to nine, with various numbers in between as well. I presume they were not all in the fleet at the same time.

Here's the BOAC timetable from September 1947 which shows the thrice-weekly Lancastrian service to Australia, with just a note that the sectors beyond Karachi are operated by Qantas, which takes a minimum of four aircraft, I presume all BOAC, to hold down the schedule, and doubtless several more with the extended maintenance and unserviceability that was standard at the time. The implication is through aircraft. Presumably with all those crew slips that would be needed (unlike the flying boat services which stopped overnight and kept the same crew for several days) it was better to crew from both ends.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ba2/ba47/ba47-05.jpg

BOAC bought Lockheed Constellations with scarce foreign exchange at the time on the justification that they needed them to compete with US carriers on the Transatlantic routes, but the Connies were almost immediately extended to the Australian route as well, as there was a significant passenger (and foreign exchange) loss occurring, especially from the Australian end, to Pan Am on better aircraft to go from Sydney to London via the USA.

[DaveReidUK]

Since we started this discussion I have found a wide variety of references to how many Lancastrians Qantas had, from one (my original opinion from two separate sources, both hitherto reliable) to nine, with various numbers in between as well. I presume they were not all in the fleet at the same time.

Here's the BOAC timetable from September 1947 which shows the thrice-weekly Lancastrian service to Australia, with just a note that the sectors beyond Karachi are operated by Qantas, which takes a minimum of four aircraft, I presume all BOAC, to hold down the schedule, and doubtless several more with the extended maintenance and unserviceability that was standard at the time. The implication is through aircraft. Presumably with all those crew slips that would be needed (unlike the flying boat services which stopped overnight and kept the same crew for several days) it was better to crew from both ends.

Looking at Jackson (which I should have done originally :\) and answering my own question from earlier, he confirms that BOAC's 21 Lancastrians

"were for joint use with Qantas on the Kangaroo service, British crews being relieved by Australians at Karachi"

AJJ also confirms that there were only 4 VH-registered Lancastrians, with no mention of whether they were also used on the Kangaroo route.

[AirportsEd]

Many thanks for the extra info.
That's another book I should get a copy of...

[DaveReidUK]

That's another book I should get a copy of...

Well three in fact, Volume I only covers Aeronca to Chilton. :O

[megan]

http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com//filer/36/ba/36ba82bf-73ab-4d93-a583-e7544f32017a/04b_aug2016_lancastrian_in_sydney_nlaobj-148359097-1_live.jpg__600x0_q85_upscale.jpg

My understanding is that the crews swapped aircraft ie BOAC crew flew the QANTAS aircraft on to London, and the QANTAS crew flew the BOAC aircraft to Sydney. That seems to be confirmed by the above photo of a BOAC aircraft parked at the QANTAS Sydney facility. BOAC at the time was a major shareholder in QANTAS, which was relinquished when QANTAS was nationalised.

[DaveReidUK]

My understanding is that the crews swapped aircraft ie BOAC crew flew the QANTAS aircraft on to London, and the QANTAS crew flew the BOAC aircraft to Sydney. That seems to be confirmed by the above photo of a BOAC aircraft parked at the QANTAS Sydney facility.

Yes, it seems clear now that the same aircraft continued up or down the route, with the uniforms changing at Karachi.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that it was only BOAC's 20-odd Lancastrians that were used on the route. Obviously there would be one BOAC aircraft originating in Sydney, crewed by Qantas, for every one that left London.

We need to unearth a photo like yours, but of one of the four Qantas aircraft at Heathrow.

[DaveReidUK]

We need to unearth a photo like yours, but of one of the four Qantas aircraft at Heathrow.

A bit more delving around into BOAC/Qantas/Kangaroo route history would suggest we're unlikely to find one (except for perhaps any pre-delivery photos).

The joint BOAC/Qantas UK/Australia service (initially from Hurn) started in May 1945. But the Qantas's own four ex-BOAC Lancastrians didn't arrive until mid/late 1947/early 1948, by which time Qantas had bought four Lockheed 749 Constellations, which inaugurated its own badged Sydney/Heathrow service in December 1947. Its own Lancastrians appear to have been used on other Asian routes such as Tokyo and Manila.

Some nice footage of Connies on the Kangaroo route here: The Longest Hop - Qantas' Kangaroo Route (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZZQhXznH4k)

[megan]

The original newspaper article is of such poor resolution I don't think it worth posting. But it concerns the loss of BOAC G-AGLX which was lost without trace on a flight between Sri Lanka and the Cocos Islands on the 23 Mar 1946. As you can see it was crewed by QANTAS. My earlier about flights to Tokyo were not general airline flights, but on behalf of the RAAF supporting our occupation forces.

The Geraldton Guardian and Express 27 Mar 1946Missing Air Liner
MISSING AIR LINE EXTENSIVE SEARCH
NO SIGNS REPORTED
VAST AREA OF OCEAN SCANNED
Perth. March 27
While the search for the missing Qantas Lancastrian and its ten occupants is proceeding in the sector north-west of Cocos Island — where the plane was last reported— the search on Australia-Cocos section -- of the route has
been intensified by the addition of another civil aircraft. Fifteen planes operating from Ceylon, Cocos, Learmonth, Darwin and Java are covering a huge area of the Indian Ocean in an effort to locate either the plane or its
dinghies. No further radio signal has been picked up and the effort to locate the source of those heard faintly on Sunday night has not been successful.

Planes searching the ocean, along ihe known route and on the route planned, yesterday spent a fruitless day. Coast watchers and those on the sea had nothing to report and there were no further unexplained radio signals to provide a clue to the whereabouts of the G-AGLX or its survivors. Nevertheless, the search is being pressed with additional searchers concentrating on the Cocos Learmonth section of the route, since Capt. Frank Thomas, commander of the G-AGLX, made his pre-flight plan with Leurmonth as his alternative land fall should he have to by-pass Cocos Island for any reason. The occurence which shut down his radio between 6 p.m. and 6.3O p.m. on Saturday night might also have caused him to exclude Cocos and choose Learmonth as his objective.

This morning at 6 o'clock the Mac-Robertson-Miller Aviation Company Ltd. at the request of Qantas, dispatched a DH-86 aircraft under the command of Capt. J. Woods to Learmonth. From that point Capt. Woods will examine the coast and areas of the ocean for signs of the missing plane or its personnel. Qantas as has delayed movement of its aircraft on the Australia-England service so that they will traverse the search area in daylight. Altogether there are now fifteen air craft, including three R.A.A.F. planes, two Catalinas and a Liberator occupied in scouring the ocean and adjacent coasts.

Three of the five passengers on the missing Lancastrian are Sydney business men. All five members of the crew are from New South Wales and four of them have Sydney suburban addresses

[DaveReidUK]

The original newspaper article is of such poor resolution I don't think it worth posting.

There's an original cutting about the disappearance from The West Australian newspaper here:

Missing Plane (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50332493)

[Phoenix1969]

Fascinating article - thanks for posting.

Sooner or later this thread is going to end up in service for longer than the aircraft it's discussing!

[AirportsEd]

Yes, very interesting. I hadn't heard of that particular loss before.
I didn't even know where the Cocos Islands were until about a month ago when reading about the disappearance of a RAF Liberator operating from there in 1945.
I don't know if I would have been brave enough to go long-haul flying over vast stretches of water in those days.

[Centaurus]

Since reading this thread on Lancastrian operations England to Australia, it made me wonder if there was any record of the number of occasions an engine was shut down in flight during the whole period the thread has covered.

The reason I am interested if these figures were ever recorded, was that I had extensive piloting experience on flying the RAAF Avro Lincoln within Australia and up to Manus Island north of New Guinea. We had the Rolls Royce Merlin 85 and 102 versions.

During the 3000 hours I flew on type in the 1950's, I counted 32 occasions where in flight engine shut-down was required either because of engine failure or precautionary shut down due to coolant leaks. And that was just my personal events; not counting the engine shut downs by other pilots.

If the Lancastrians had a similar shut down rate during their period of operation, the maintenance costs must have been substantial as well as the overall costs associated with aircraft AOG en-route awaiting a spare engine.

[evansb]

As much as the RR Merlin is venerated, it should also be cursed. In multi-engine ops, a precautionary shut-down of a Rolls Royce Merlin engine was almost routine and not unexpected. A precautionary shut-down of a Rolls Royce Merlin may have caused the demise of Trans Canada Air Lines Flight 810, nearly 60 years ago.

[WHBM]

I found an article stating that the Qantas Lancastrians, which don't appear in any old Qantas timetable I have seen, were employed on RAAF charters for the Australian occupation forces in Japan, starting in late 1947 which seems shortly after they were bought from BOAC. They had supplementary military roundels which were a requirement of the occupation area, which probably precluded them from being rotated with any mainstream scheduled operation. I suspect they had a bit more than the 9 sideways-facing seats as well.


Warbird Information Exchange ? View topic - Avro Lancastrian VH-EAU (http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=515934)

[DaveReidUK]

A precautionary shut-down of a Rolls Royce Merlin may have caused the demise of Trans Canada Air Lines Flight 810, nearly 60 years ago.

Strictly speaking, the cause of TCA 810's demise was being in the wrong place and flying into a mountain.

The engine shutdown, plus turbulence and/or icing, were classed as contributory factors.

[megan]

A few details.

The first QANTAS Lancastrian departed the Old Dart for delivery to Australia on the 23 April 1945, and the second the following day.

The first airline flights departed on 2 June 1945, respectively from Hurn and Sydney, and took 3 days for the journey. Services began at one per week, latter lifting to two, and finally three in 1946.

The Lancastrians were relegated to mail/freight on the route when the Constellations were introduced in Dec 1947.

[DaveReidUK]

The first QANTAS Lancastrian departed the Old Dart for delivery to Australia on the 23 April 1945, and the second the following day.

The first airline flights departed on 2 June 1945, respectively from Hurn and Sydney, and took 3 days for the journey. Services began at one per week, latter lifting to two, and finally three in 1946.

The Lancastrians were relegated to mail/freight on the route when the Constellations were introduced in Dec 1947.

I thought we had established that Qantas didn't take delivery of their own Lancastrians until 1947, with the joint BOAC/Qantas service prior to then being operated by BOAC aircraft ?

Or are you thinking of the BOAC aircraft being positioned to Australia in order to inaugurate the Sydney-London service at the same time as the outbound inaugural ?

[megan]

Hi Dave. From "Flight" 3 May 1945.The first Lancastrian on a development flight for the London- New Zealand service shortly to be opened arrived in Auckland in 53 hr. 13 min. flying time from England, a distance of 13,380 statute miles.

This is the first of five Lancastrians ordered by Qantas Airways for a regular service, and it left this country on April 23rd, touching down at Auckland at 05.20 hr. on the 27th.

The second aircraft left U.K. on April 24th.

It is hoped that the service, which will bring New Zealand within about 86 br. Of London, might start early in June, but this would depend on deliveries of aircraft.

As a preliminary, aircraft will fly straight through, changing crews at Karachi, where Qantas take over. As aircraft and crews become more available, BOAC and Qantas will operate parallel services.
Being ex BOAC aircraft actual ownership of the aircraft would be an interesting question, as BOAC had a 50% stake in QEA. Were they "lent" to QEA who then painted them in their livery and Australian registration?

[DaveReidUK]

Hi Dave. From "Flight" 3 May 1945.Being ex BOAC aircraft actual ownership of the aircraft would be an interesting question, as BOAC had a 50% stake in QEA. Were they "lent" to QEA who then painted them in their livery and Australian registration?

BOAC's 21 Lancastrians were all registered on 1st December 1944, and all remained on the British register until withdrawn from service, apart from the previously-mentioned three that went to Qantas in 1947.

So none of the aircraft flying the route in 1945 would have been VH-registered.

The Daily Telegraph report on the inaugural flight was quoted in a Rolls-Royce ad in the July 19th 1945 edition of Flight:

"A British Overseas Airways Corporation Lancastrian plane inaugurated the London-Auckland service by creating a record for the 13,300 mile flight of 53 hrs 13 min".

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945%20-%201382.html?search=auckland

[megan]

There is certainly some confusion Dave"Flight" JUNE 7TH, 1945

BRITISH OVERSEAS AIRWAYS last week inaugurated a new through service to Australia, the longest air route in the world.

A Lancastrian aircraft left the BOAC's landplane base at Hurn, Dorset, manned by BOAC crews for Karachi. There crews of Qantas Empire Airways take over for the remainder of the 13,257 miles voyage.

A Qantas Lancastrian mail plane left Sydney in the opposite direction.

The new service, which for the present will be operated jointly by B.O.A.C. and Qantas Empire Airways and will fly once weekly in each direction, has been undertaken to serve the needs of the Far Eastern theatre of war and will carry freight and a small number of official passengers. The route is via Lydda (Palestine), Karachi and Ceylon. Sydney will be reached in under 70 hours.The first London to Sydney scheduled service was carried out by G-AGLS departing on 28 May 1945.

The QEA aircraft came from BOAC stock, so the question is when did they assume the VH- registration?

[WHBM]

1947 we believe.

I presume the above piece should have read "a Qantas-crewed plane ...".

May/June 1945 would have been a time when communications from Sydney to a London-based magazine would have been pretty difficult. The Japanese were still in full control of Singapore, I guess the Lancastrian had to do a nonstop from Colombo to Perth, probably at night to avoid the odd Japanese patrol aircraft which used to overfly Cocos Islands etc. The fact it was the first air-mail plane meant that any comms would either be from surface mail sent months beforehand, or a very briefly worded telegram, where the word "crewed" might have been seen as surplus :)

I wonder if the aircraft that did that proving flight out to New Zealand in May 1945 was actually the same one, after a spot of training (or requalification for any Qantas crews who were ex-RAAF on Lancasters), which made that first Qantas-crewed departure back from Sydney in early June 1945.

Regarding livery, as can be seen in the pictures above they didn't really have one, the aircraft were in natural aluminium, with just a small decal. The registration letters were probably the largest application of paint. This was standard at the time.

[DaveReidUK]

The QEA aircraft came from BOAC stock, so the question is when did they assume the VH- registration?

VH-EAS 16/7/1947: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AGMD.pdf
VH-EAT 12/9/1947: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AGML.pdf
VH-EAU 2/11/1947: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AGLZ.pdf

and, for completeness, the 4th (ex-Skyways) aircraft:

VH-EAV 21/1/1948: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AHBW.pdf

John Gunn's book "Challenging Horizons: Qantas 1939-1954" (viewable on Google Books) casts some light on the first services:

"The New Guinea service started on 2 April with DC3 aircraft. A few days later, on 9 April, [Captain Russell] Tapp left England in the first QEA [Qantas Empire Airways] Lancastrian. Fysh confirmed to McMaster [the two founders of Qantas] that the Lancastrian service would start from England on 31 May and from Sydney on 2 June. The second Lancastrian delivery flight inder Capt. O.F.Y. Thomas left England on 24 April ..."

However two accompanying photos show a Lancastrian at Sydney/Mascot and Brisbane/Archerfield in April 1945 which appears to be VD238/KZS in RAF markings - the aircraft that had been registered as G-AGLS in December 1944!

The plot thickens ...

[megan]

The change to VH registration is obviously an outcome of the government nationlising QANTAS in 1947. QANTAS Empire Airways (QEA) was formed in 1934 with 49% holding by both airlines, with 2% held by a neutral party. Since they are referred to as QANTAS aircraft from the beginning of operations I wonder did they carry QANTAS livery, even though they were G- registration?

The crew for the first flight departing Australia were Captain O. F. Y. Thomas; first officer, D. S. Shannon; navigator. -B. S. Walker; radio operator. K. O'Dwyer, flight steward, J. Martin, Reserve personnel: Captain E. R. Nicholl; first officer, F. N. Davis; and navigator, G. A. Hoare. Just looking at a photo of the aircraft and it carries the code VD238 (G-AGLS) and the letters KZ just visible on the fuselage. Yet "Flight" had a photo of AGLS supporting it's article about the first flight departing London on the 28 May. Can't have been AGLS, use of stock photo? So your book is right Dave.

Top right corner of page Dave. You need to blow it up some what.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230443240?searchTerm=lancastrian&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHand ler|||dateFrom=1945-06-02|||dateTo=1945-06-05|||sortby#

[DaveReidUK]

Another newspaper cutting that muddies the waters even more, from the Brisbane Courier Mail, 30 April 1945::

"Australia's fastest civil transport plane, the Lancastrian, was visited by hundreds of sightseers when it made a brief visit to Brisbane vesterdav. One of five machines of this type acquired by Qantas Empire Airways to inaugurate the 70-hour flights between Sydney and London, in June ..."

30 Apr 1945 - BRISBANE SEES FAST AIRLINER - Trove (http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48971858/2009817)

[megan]

The "five" is also quoted in a "Flight" article. Maybe that was the plan at the start, but didn't come to fruition. The photo I posted earlier of AGML was taken in 1946 and although the caption says BOAC, it was a QANTAS aircraft - whatever that means. ;) I note it carries no livery as well - question answered.

[DaveReidUK]

Just looking at a photo of the aircraft and it carries the code VD238 (G-AGLS) and the letters KZ just visible on the fuselage.

Yet "Flight" had a photo of AGLS supporting it's article about the first flight departing London on the 28 May. Can't have been AGLS, use of stock photo?

Are you thinking of this well-known photo:

http://www.mediastorehouse.com/p/164/avro-lancastrian-g-agls-nelson-takes-off-from-heathrow-9893303.jpg

It shows G-AGLS departing from Heathrow on 28 May 1946 (three days before a still under-construction Heathrow officially opened for business), bound for Australia.

But the Mascot and Archerfield photos in Gunn's book were just before the May/June 1945 inaugurals (which would have used Hurn/Bournemouth before Heathrow opened).

So G-AGLS, although first registered to BOAC in December 1944, flew wearing its previous RAF serial VD238/KZS until at least the middle of 1945, but was wearing its civil registration by the time Heathrow opened in 1946, if not before. I believe that was also true of some or all of its other Lancastrians.

Incidentally, here's a document that identifies four of the mysterious five pre-1947 "QEA Lancastrians", based on the BOAC maintenance "Fleet Position" returns:

http://www.ab-ix.co.uk/boacfleetlist.pdf

It lists all 21 Lancastrians in the fleet at the time, with the note "for QEA" against G-AGLS/T/W and Z.

So we're getting closer. :O

[renfrew]

Qantas at War by Hudson Fysh lists their five Lancastrians as---
G-AGLS/G-AGLT/G-AGLW/G-AGLY/G-AGLZ

[JW411]

A quick scan through the Air-Britain Big Book (BCARs 1919 - 1999) shows the following:

G-AGLZ to VH-EAU
G-AGMD to VH-EAS
G-AGML to VH-EAT
G-AHBW to VH-EAV

A check through the Lancastrian aircraft registration documents on the CAA G-INFO site is in total agreement.

There is no evidence of foreign registration on the documents for G-AGLS, G-AGLT, G-AGLW or G-AGLY.

[DaveReidUK]

A quick scan through the Air-Britain Big Book (BCARs 1919 - 1999) shows the following:

G-AGLZ to VH-EAU
G-AGMD to VH-EAS
G-AGML to VH-EAT
G-AHBW to VH-EAV

A check through the Lancastrian aircraft registration documents on the CAA G-INFO site is in total agreement.

There is no evidence of foreign registration on the documents for G-AGLS, G-AGLT, G-AGLW or G-AGLY.

Yes, see posts #180, #205 and #208.

[JW411]

I was merely referring to Post 213 above. I'll get back in my box and shut up!

[BSAA1947]

I flew on a BSAA aircraft on a local flight from Heathrow in48
We sat sideways all 9 seats on the Port side

I've just been browsing this interesting thread again and noticed this comment about the BSAA aircraft with only nine seats. Checking my fleet details reveals this could only have been one of two aircraft. BSAA only bought four of the Lancastrian II (with nine seats) and only two of those were subsequently used, with the others being broken up for spares. Therefore your flight must have been in either G-AKMW 'Star Bright' or G-AKTB 'Star Glory'. All the other BSAA Lancastrians used on passenger flights were the thirteen seat Lancastrian III. The two Lancastrian IV aircraft they owned were used for freight on the Berlin Airlift.

[AirportsEd]

I flew on a BSAA aircraft on a local flight from Heathrow in48

I must admit to being a bit jealous!
Ed

[BSAA1947]

I must admit to being a bit jealous!
Ed

Indeed. Me too!

[megan]

the thirteen seat LancastrianCould I ask for the seat layout BSAA?

[DaveReidUK]

the thirteen seat LancastrianJudging from the photo in post #61, it looks like the 2-abreast seating is staggered, with 6 on the left and 7 on the right.

[BSAA1947]

Could I ask for the seat layout BSAA?

It was seven seats on the port side and six on the starboard, due to the single door being on the starboard side.

[tourman68]

This might be of interest. This is a picture taken of my old friend Reg Langtry at the controls of a Lancastrian of BSAA. His log book dates this as April 1947 and it would either be G-AGWK or G-AHCD. It shows he flew both of these aircraft on local training flights from London with Captain Griffin who you can just see in the shot on the right.

He flew as a First Officer on the routes to South America and then as a Captain of a Tudor flying on the Berlin Airlift. He completed 147 trips to Berlin during this time.

He then returned to flying the Lancastrian and York before joining BOAC in 1951 on the Comet fleet.

1303

1306

[AirportsEd]

Hello tourman,
Thanks, that is interesting.
Was he an ex-Bomber Command pilot?
Ed

[tourman68]

Yes he completed two tours.

The first as a WO/AG on Wellingtons, that would be in 1940/41. He completed his tour before the rest of his crew and sadly they were all killed three trips later.

His second tour was as captain on the Halifax from 1943. He joined BSAA in 1947.

His log book from the war years makes for very intersting reading.

[AirportsEd]

Thank you tourman.
I bet that logbook is very interesting!
I understand the boss did his best to hire ex-bomber boys, but I had wondered if a few guys with a civilian background had made it through the recruitment process.
Ed

[briani]

As an A.T.C. Cadet in the early '50s I spent a lot of time at RAF Hendon. One of the Controllers described how he had closed the tower one evening and was on his bicycle when a Lancastrian landed apparently mistaking Hendon for Northolt. He described how the aircraft was stripped of seats etc. so that it could be ferried to Northolt. Anybody remember the incident?.

[Warmtoast]

Lancastrian Milk Run - Autumn 1947

In the autumn of 1947 following a severe drought the milk ration for adults in the UK was cut to 1½ pints per week. The shortages were so severe that Lancastrians were pressed into service to do a "milk run" between Northern Island and the mainland. One coming to grief in the process.

More details in the press cuttings below.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image1_zpsyw21vyjp.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image2_zpswzougqrn.jpg


WT

[Warmtoast]

Briani

the aircraft was stripped of seats etc. so that it could be ferried to Northolt. Anybody remember the incident?Not mistaking this for the B707 that mistakenly landed at Northolt instead of Heathrow? ISTR this 707 had to have some modifications to allow it to take-off safely from Northolt. More details here: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/377970-aircraft-landing-wrong-airfield.html

[DaveReidUK]

Not mistaking this for the B707 that mistakenly landed at Northolt instead of Heathrow?

Probably not:

As an A.T.C. Cadet in the early '50s

[AirportsEd]

Thanks warmtoast...does anyone know which airframe was involved in the milk run crash and who the crew were?
Ed

[Planemike]

Accident at Nutts Corner on 03 Oct 1947 involved Skyways "Sky Path" G-AHBU (c/n 1289). The aircraft was written off. Have no information on the crew.

[AirportsEd]

Thanks Planemike,
If I remember correctly, 'BU' was the aircraft that had taken the King of Greece back to his homeland after the end of WW2.

[Warmtoast]

Planemike
Accident at Nutts Corner on 03 Oct 1947 involved Skyways "Sky Path" G-AHBU (c/n 1289). 'AirportsEd'
Photo of 'G-AHBU' sporting a Greek flag on pprune here (post #143): http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/337032-how-did-heathrow-used-look-8.html

[Planemike]

Warmtoast............. You beat me to it !!

[WHBM]

Crashed carrying 1,000 gallons of milk.

I wonder how many gallons of fuel were used by the aircraft doing Belfast to Liverpool and back.

[AirportsEd]

Yes, that's the one Warmtoast!
Many thanks,
Ed

[India Four Two]

350 mile round trip. 200 mph. 1h45.

75 gph x 4 x 1.75 = 525 gallons.

That's expensive milk!

[Warmtoast]

Expensive

At 2s 0d (10p decimal) per gallon not too dear.

[India Four Two]

Two bob a gallon in 1947 is £3.78 now, but more importantly, milk was three bob a gallon, so that's a very expensive delivery fuel bill.

Obviously, using electric milk floats was an attempt to reduce the average delivery cost. ;)

[AirportsEd]

If only you could still get milk delivered by Lancastrian...I'd be willing to pay an extra bob or two!

[AirportsEd]

Saw this picture (on another forum) of G-AHCA at Geneva.
I presume this was taken during her time with Skyways.
Did Skyways operate to Geneva on a regular basis, or was its whole operation based on ad-hoc work?

[PDT1952]

Hi, I too have wondered about STENDEC, I found this plausible explanation The North Texas Skeptic (http://www.ntskeptics.org/2010/2010december/december2010.htm), what do you think?

[AirportsEd]

Well, there are less-likely theories I suppose!
However, if the radio operator was really trying to put across an emergency message, surely he wouldn't have just repeated the identity of a potential alternate arrival airport...?
Ed

[WHBM]

He's 95 now, and still doing fine.Well done sir :ok:


Just before they folded he was working on a ultra long range Douglas DC-4 for the Argentine Government.
He doesn't know what happened to it.This is just a "best guess", but if it was the 1950s folding of Skyways (they had multiple financial mishaps !) then it could well be DC-4 frame 7454, which was delivered in early 1951 to the Argie Air Force as 4T-1, transport number 1 in the AF transport fleet so likely to be the VIP aircraft. It had been used a bit by the USAF at the end of WW2 but then went back to Douglas for several years, presumably unused, so had pretty low hours by 1950. Also later used by the Argentine Navy, it was withdrawn in the early 1960s, then sat at an air base for 20 years before being broken up in the 1980s.

[AirportsEd]

Excellent post Push Button...and well done to your dad.
Any chance of seeing that Skyways Lancastrian photo?
Ed

[Daughter59]

To button push ignored:
My Dad, who was a similar age to your father, also worked at Skyways and BEA in the 1950's and I love hearing such stories. I thoroughly enjoyed reading John Newby's book on Skyways too.

[RichardRS]

This Forum has been faultless in helping me establish airport locations used in commercially distributed films. (Reel Streets - Reelstreets Films - Home Page (http://www.reelstreets.com)) In recent days another question has been answered with more detail than I could ever have wished. As a result of using this particular Forum I came across this thread which is not only very interesting for a complete "outsider" but covers an aeroplane that just happens to feature in another film that I am currently establishing locations for. Booby Trap (1957) The main character ostensibly flies to America from, to me, an unknown airport for which I attach a screen capture. There is then what must be stock footage of Lancastrian AGMM taking off, about 5-6 seconds. If I read CAA result correctly this plane crashed in 1949, not uncommon according to your thread, and was "withdrawn from service". The character returns from America on AGMA for which there is about 8-9 seconds of the landing. That plane was apparently withdrawn in 1951, so all stock footage from somewhere. I thought that you chaps would be interested to know that this footage is available on film and might appreciate the attached stills. For my part I would welcome any information as to the airport used in the shots. I thought that it might be Hurn as it is recorded as their "usual station" but I see that there were flight from Poole. Am I correct in believing that these planes did not fly to America?

[RichardRS]

Just a quick correction to my above post, the film should be quoted as Four Days (1951). Apologies, clearly too much on my Desktop!

[WHBM]

Am I correct in believing that these planes did not fly to America?
The BOAC ones (featured here) did not. However both British South American Airways and Trans-Canada used theirs across the Atlantic.

The first picture is of a Douglas DC-3, while the fourth has a DC-6 in the background.