flydubai leaked documents.

[flash8]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/29/flydubai-flight-records-the-leaked-documents

Comes as absolutely no surprise.

[Superpilot]

Comedy. Pure comedy.

[Basil]

Didn't read it all but seemed to contain a lot of the common pax med and other problems which we've all dealt with.

[Chronus]

Shocking !
Meaningful to all those who earn a living from it, but unfortunately shouting in to the wind so far as the public at large is concerned.

[KelvinD]

It made sad reading for me. I used to fly between Dubai and Abha at least once a month 2011 to 2013 and I thought they were an excellent airline to fly with.

[Airbubba]

Hey, I think I just flew with this guy ;):

XXXXX Dubai to Muscat, Oman

I was scheduled to fly 4 sectors with xxxxx. Following are my serious concerns about xxxxx’s flying technique, adherence to SOPs and lack of CRM.

1. Bounced Landing: In absolutely calm winds at Muscat, ILS 26 R the aircraft bounced after landing and touched down very firmly the second time, in my opinion it was due to wrong flare technique.

2. He has constant habit of making and then executing FMS route and approach changes without informing other crew member, that includes deletion of planned route points and creating and executing new way points for approach. This is a serious flight safety issue and he must be briefed about the company SOPs on the subject.

3. He has a dangerous tendency to go heads down and make and executes FMS changes being PF, and that too well below 7500 feet in Dubai terminal area with extreme air traffic all around. This all he does even when PM is not doing any other task. When told to refrain from this, he makes gestures of annoyance and then stop announcing FMA changes as a reaction, and does not respond to FMS changes announced by the PM on his behalf.

4. Almost on every before and after take off checklist and landing checklist he announces it through memory and does not even bother to take it out or use the one on control column, which is obvious as he does not turn on the light and his note book covering the checklist on control column. Occasionally he takes out the checklist but makes no effort to read it, he just holds it and announce checks verbally.

5. He makes gestures and raises his voice when told to do something, he does not like to be told anything and shows no respect and courtesy to other crew member.

[Cazalet33]

one unstable aircraft due to unstable truffles.

I hate it when that happens!

[pax britanica]

read this mearleir while at PRG watching a Fly Dubai 738 arrive, pretty long trek on a 73 and I noticed there was crew ready to board at the gate so presumably this is a nightstop for the Fd and CC . (also an Oman air 73 there-even longer flight.

After reading the 'leaks it seems a case of 'Don't Fly Dubai' as the constant nagging/cajoling of pilots by Crew Control and Network Ops doesn't sound at all healthy to me

[Noxegon]

For what it's worth I had a flight cancelled by them years ago, and they refused to refund my payment, instead promising me a voucher valid for the next twelve months for one of their flights (that never arrived, but even if it had would have been useless to me given that I don't live in the UAE). Turns out that was in accordance with their terms and conditions and for that reason my card issuer refused to refund me too :(

[4runner]

I don't work at Fly Dubai. I do however, recognize a dynamic amongst flight crew and ground staff. There seems to be an "us versus them" mentality. Professional pilots are being used as high paid pawns by ground staff who have made themselves appear clever by maximizing human resources in the cockpit, i.e. Working pilots like dogs. This is a manifestation of leadership, or lack thereof from the top. The accident was merely "chickens coming home to roost" and these policies finally coming to fruition. One of the victims national legal systems needs to issue an arrest warrant for a senior member/members of FlyDubai management. This might actually induce some changes. Additionally, a few CAA's can start blacklisting FlyDubai flights. Make upper management responsible for their climate they have created and decisions they have made.

[Al E. Vator]

Ok well there's an airline I shall never fly on. Air Asia is coming close second too.

This is stuff that was sorted out in the 1960's. I can't fathom some airlines are still making the same mistakes and have not learnt anything from history.

Yes punishing the managers responsible would be great but it won't happen - especially within the farcical Emirati judicial and legal system.

[4runner]

Ok well there's an airline I shall never fly on. Air Asia is coming close second too.

This is stuff that was sorted out in the 1960's. I can't fathom some airlines are still making the same mistakes and have not learnt anything from history.

Yes punishing the managers responsible would be great but it won't happen - especially within the farcical Emerati judicial and legal system.

That's why I said a nation who had victims on the FlyDubai crash. The Emiratis would never do this obviously. It is however, a global economy and extradition treaties exist. A little fear of God may go a long way.

[Mungo Man]

Apart from the fact that these reports have found their way into the public domain, the most worrying bit I read was about the Kathmandu approach. 800ft at 1nm and disregarding bank angle and sink rate warnings. 10s downwind timing on a circle sounds a bit tight.

Hi Kind of a bad approach in KTM yesterday. It started out by ATC wanting us to do a VOR to rwy 02. Wind was reported 190/17 kts. We can only do 10 kts tail wind in ktm. We asked for a circling, but with the option to land on RWY 02 when we came down to minima and the wind was below 10 kts. On final KTM wanted us to circle to the right of the rwy, we several times told them that we can only do circling to the left of the rwy. So busy on the radio, coming down the path. We did turn left at KTM 2 miles, hdg 337 for 20 sec, then hdg 022, abm the threshold timing was done at 10 sec (not 15, due to tailwind), we had to stay within the 4 nm circle of KTM. I started descend, disconnected AP/AT and continued descend. We had one bank angle and 2 sink rate aural warnings. We were fully VMC so I continued. The approach leaves you 3 times high than a normal 3deg. ILS app. At one mile from the rwy on the circling app you are at 800 somthing feet, on a normal ILS you would be at 300 feet. On the VOR to 02 KTM we do get glideslope warning the last 2.5 nm if we increase our rate of descent, and thats normal in KTM. Now I could see that we where high, but was not expecting to have that steep angle to the rwy. So rate of descent was high, and triggered the aural sink rate twice. I don’t see how that app can be flown without getting the warning or at least close to getting it. Its steep, its close to the mountains, and its an approach I have only done once in the sim 4-5 years ago. I was not comfortable doing it. A sink rate warning can be disregarded if you are VMC and comfortable to continue, but we did get it close 300 feet also. This really bugs me, either is was late starting my descent, we where to close or something else. We should probably have done a go around, but that would have ended up in a diversion and a layover somewhere. (I know thats not an excuse, but its still in your mind somewhere when making your split second decision) Its a complex situation and you know you will get yelled at from the company if that would be the case. I would like your response to the incident and your thoughts on that app, am I the only one with this view or has other people raised their concern etc. Next time the offer a circling to RWY 20 I will probably decline, and rather diverte. Its not worth it..

[Chesty Morgan]

and disregarding bank angle and sink rate warnings.

What's wrong with that?

[framer]

Working pilots like dogs. This is a manifestation of leadership, or lack thereof from the top. The accident was merely "chickens coming home to roost" and these policies finally coming to fruition.
That is correct but what else can we expect? All the folk in power, the ones who actually have power to change schedules, decide on pilot numbers, influence how rosters are made etc, don't understand what is required to fly an airliner because they have never done it. They wouldn't have a clue what it is like to complete a challenging approach and landing after getting up at 3am four days in a row to do a 12 hour two sector day knowing you have one day off before doing lates and then earlies again, month in month out. Not a clue.

[framer]

This is stuff that was sorted out in the 1960's. I can't fathom some airlines are still making the same mistakes and have not learnt anything from history.
not just some airlines, many. And in countries that you would have thought knew better too.

[notapilot15]

These are training samples used as part of comprehensive fatigue management program. These help crew identify and record fatigue in an efficient way. Media mistook these as real ASRs.
;);)

[josephfeatherweight]

I don't have any experience flying into KTM, so I wouldn't suppose to pass judgement on the method by which that dude flew the circling into KTM - but, he should be applauded for submitting his frank report in any case.

[Phantom Driver]

Chesty M-

Originally Posted by Mungo Man http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/582220-flydubai-leaked-documents.html#post9456265)
and disregarding bank angle and sink rate warnings.

What's wrong with that?Hopefully tongue in cheek ?! (Just in case there are some here who may think otherwise....)

from the report;
On the VOR to 02 KTM we do get glideslope warning the last 2.5 nm if we increase our rate of descent, and thats normal in KTM. Now I could see that we where high, but was not expecting to
No ILS on 02 , so I presume he means "sink rate " warning , unless this is a new addition to the 73-8 GPWS on VOR approaches.

I recall my first trip into KTM years ago, an unscheduled affair whilst u/t on the 340. (Third training trip, I think). Instead of BKK-MCT , we had to go via KTM to pick up pax due some traffic issues .

Night VOR approach to 02 , during monsoon season ( gulp; just as well as couldn't see the hills) . Fortunately, wx over the field was good , so no dramas , and the IP in the right seat (Yaqub A) remained remarkably cool throughout. No RNav approaches in those days, so all basic (and fairly complicated ) procedural stuff with gear/flap/VS selections, which eventually got changed to something more reasonable.

Once cleared , only went in there one more time (daylight ; beautiful views ) and not too long after , the 340 was replaced by the 767 . The powers that be decided the "hairdriers" on the 34-3 were not quite up to the job of adequate terrain clearance , even with all operating.

Back to the subject , I wonder why these guys were circling to the north (if I read it correctly) of the runway ? As I recall , KTM was a Captain only approach , and any circling (and I only ever did it in the initial mandatory sim, although some colleagues did it for real) was done to the south. Lots of room there and good view of the runway for the Capt (PF).

Maybe FR have different SOP's ? As I say , long time since I last went in there.

[notapilot15]

I still can't believe a British paper published these. I known there is no national solidarity towards FZ management, but silence is still a free market commodity.

[Chesty Morgan]

Chesty M-
Hopefully tongue in cheek ?! (Just in case there are some here who may think otherwise....)

No, not at all.

[plt radioman]

well KTM is a tight little hole itself.

you have to stay within 4 nm from KTM within the maneuver.

[Journey Man]

As FlyDubai has replied to these leaks, is it now accepted they're genuine, contrary to a post earlier in this thread?

[Basil]

He makes gestures and raises his voice when told to do something, he does not like to be told anything and shows no respect and courtesy to other crew member.
Whilst on a command course an instructor remarked to me; "You're just about to discover that all the cnuts aren't in the LHS!"

[Jwscud]

The constant pressure to operate into discretion and wanting of names I recall very clearly from my time in a loco based rather closer to the Atlantic. At least they didn't have ACARS or the satphone to pressure us on!