View Full Version : Helicopter CPL
Montjuic
20th Jul 2016, 13:27
Hi all,
I need advice on a range of topics related to training for the helicopter CPL.
First I am looking at Aerolink Sabadell for training does anyone know anything about them or opinions?
Second I am wondering about the level of maths and pushcart required to pass the course - maths was never my favorite subject although I liked physics. Is a lot or high level maths required?
Third what are prospects like for newly qualified pilots in Spain? They claim I will have no problem getting a job and that companies will even pay for my type rating after coming off the R44 - I have my doubts.
Is this qualification only the start and will I need many more hours before a company will even look at me?
I have heard that companies such as Inaer take you and they pay you but you acquire no hours and legally you can only do that for three years before you need to get type rated?
To be honest I am very confused and am hearing lots of different stories of helicopter pilot prospects - must say its a dead end I really want to do this but most make a hard headed decision based on facts.
Thank you
What ever a flight school tell you about jobs, forget get it , they all sell bull****.
Expect a difficult time in getting a job, you will work for free...
The exams are not difficult , but tricky ,if you are determined you will get there .
The helicopter industry is going through hard times , at the moment , probably the worse I have seen in 10 years of flying .
the first few years , you will be living out of a suitcase, scratching around for hours.
If you really want to be a pilot, then go for it, I WOULD NOT take any loans out for pilot licence
Just looking at AEROLINK website ....CPL 9 exams ..thought it was 13 ? Multi-engine Aircraft Qualification AS-350 series ? thought the as350 had 1 engine
They are certainly telling lies if they are saying you will have no problem getting a job, especially in Spain for a low time pilot. The easy bit is getting a licence - you need hours on top, or a specialist qualification like longlining or an IR. Fortunately, given your location, you may already have one if you speak Spanish - a lot of the world is wide open to you, especially South America where, until not that long ago, they were more interested in your speaking Spanish than your licence.
What's the point in getting paid if you get no legal hours? Ad that stuff about 3 years and type ratings? You can't get a licence issued without a type ratiing anyway.
Having said all that, many people I know are making a living freelancing.
The standard of the exams is just about high school, but you have to remember a lot.
A lot depends on how much money you have. With low hours you need as many cheap hours as possible - that is, quantity rather than quality, but at some stage you will need turbine time, then twin time. It's hard to say where the cutoff is, but I would suggest it would be around 500 hours piston.
And yes, as ERSA says, it is 13 exams for the CPL(H), and the m/e qualification should be on the AS 355. Also, you will need an extra certificate if you only have a CPL(H) and wish to fly twins - the First Multi-engine pre-entry conversion.
Finally, be careful of where you do any type conversions - as a Chief Pilot, if you came to me with a 206 type rating and only 10 hours, I would likely want to do it again unless I knew the school who trained you, but then, I'm weird that way :).
Good luck!
phil
whoknows idont
21st Jul 2016, 04:31
This course allows any student without previous experience in aerial navigation to obtain the following titles:
Private Pilot Licence PPL
Commercial Pilot Licence CPL
Instrument Flight Qualification R22
Multi-engine Aircraft Qualification AS-350 series
I think they are full of crap. What is an "Instrument Flight Qualification R22" supposed to be? They are suggesting an Instrument Rating while probably they are only talking about the regular hours flying under the hood that are required. AFAIK there is no more single engine IFR in EASA land. The worlds first "ME AS-350" has been pointed out already.
There is a couple more red flags on their homepage. They are aiming at the unexperienced that are full of hear-say and are trying appear to check all the boxes by shady terminology.
This (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/122944-faq-training-employment-prospects-please-read-before-posting.html) Will answer most of your questions. Study carefully and if you still want to become a helicopter pilot, look for a better school than the one you mentioned. Get to know as many people in the business as you can before making your choice. That would be my advice.
Montjuic
21st Jul 2016, 07:49
Many many thanks for the replies which spell out the doubts I am having. I feel I am being blinded with jargon and half promises with nothing specifically concrete.
I really want to pursue this but have to let my head rule my heart in making an informed decision. I really want to stay in Spain once qualified but the problem I am afraid of is that even if I get the license with the minimum amount of hours legally required who is going to hire me without a type rating apart from the R22?
They claim that companies are crying out for copilots in Spain but yes you are right it doesn't make sense to me how you are allowed to sit in for the ride as a copilot get paid (how little or much I don't know) and not acquire any hours for a type rating. It seems a bit odd that you are paid just to go for the ride. Legally I found out in Spain you can do that for 3 years then you must either pay yourself to do the type rating or the company you work for pay for you. The school claims that's no problem and everyone nowadays that the companies pay for this which I'm a bit sceptical about although I'd love to believe it. The whole thing strikes me as all a bit up in the air excuse the pun with nothing certain or set out concretely.
The attractions going from zero experience to fully qualified for an all inclusive price.
The cons paying a load of money for nothing or having to pay more to build hours on top of that to make myself anyway employable.
I'd love to hear more opinions and thoughts from those who have answered or anyone else.
Does this seem feasible or is it a ball of smoke?
Any thoughts on the level of maths required - I am worried about that is it a high level is it mostly maths at the end of the day?
My age as well I don't know if I'm a bit old I'm 33.
Thank you very much
Mr Montjuic
1. 33 is not to old
2. Don't worry about the maths it's no problem, the only problem is the volume of material is high.
3. Nobody is "crying out" for pilots right now, quite the opposite in fact
4. Getting in the aircraft as a "pilots assistant"' seems like a road to nowhere to me.
5.the whole thing sounds like they are trying to sell you dream, be careful or it will become a nightmare
Stewart1234
21st Jul 2016, 10:36
HI!
I run a flight school in Mallorca which is registered with the CAA.
If you need any help let me know. There are jobs out there but they are not easy to come by. You really need to try to get to know as many people as you can in the industry.
Let me know if you need anything
muermel
21st Jul 2016, 10:38
@Montjuic
What other professional qualifications do you have? I mean have you got a background in maybe business/ sales/ office, or technical background? I got my first job as a pilot over other people with more experience & hours cause of my sales/ office background. Half the time is office now for me, but related things like organizing sightseeing flight, permits, general office work that my boss won't have to do cause I can do it. I'm only flying the 44 right now, mostly tours and sightseesing but will do my EC 120 rating (payed for by company but bonded!!) soon.
Oh and I only got the job because I knew someone, that knew someone, that knew my current boss, so networking is very important.
Thracian
21st Jul 2016, 11:12
@Montjuic,
I know of a Madrilenean Heli-Pilot (so much on networking ;-)).
If you contact me by pm, I can give you his name and email contact.
At least you can discuss the topic in your native language.
Thracian
Montjuic
21st Jul 2016, 16:33
@SFIM
Many thanks for your replies.
Re point 4 Yes it is the first time I have come across this concept of a pilots assistant or crew member being qualified for the R44 but then promising a place in a cockpit of an AS350 but not getting type rated.
Their webpage Commercial Helicopter School :: Aerolink (http://www.aerolink.es/en/flight-academy/helicopter-commercial-pilot-program) plus the info they have given me seems incorrect contradictory and does not make sense or make clear the pathway.
It just strikes me all as quite general much as I would love to believe it all.
I have no contacts in the industry so all and any opinions are greatly appreciated.
Montjuic
21st Jul 2016, 16:40
@Stewart1234
Thanks Stewart, since you are Spanish based I will direct this at you if you have come across this school or this pathway to becoming a heli pilot - what do you make of this in the Spanish context? Commercial Helicopter School :: Aerolink (http://www.aerolink.es/en/flight-academy/helicopter-commercial-pilot-program)
Long story short I am a native English speaker fluent in Spanish based in Barcelona and am attracted due to what they say here which I am taking at face value and their supposed links to companies which is not quite so clear or it could all be pie in the sky!
Ideally I would like to stay around Barcelona or at least Spain (wife kids etc)
Commercial Helicopter School :: Aerolink (http://www.aerolink.es/en/flight-academy/helicopter-commercial-pilot-program)
PS
PM me your school too!
Montjuic
21st Jul 2016, 16:57
@muermel
I have over 10 years experience in government business consulting acquiring European Uunion funding for companies in many different countries so this is a total career change.
- Bachelor Masters degrees in economics, European Integration
- Native English speaker fluent in Spanish, Catalan and French
Massive general interest in aviation attracted to the idea of being a heli pilot due to its flexibility workwise, fascination with the machine etc more than by planes
So a wider role apart from flying on the business sales end of things I would be well able for also - I am quite flexible.
Lucky you getting an EC120 rating paid for. Congrats - bonded how does that work?
Montjuic
21st Jul 2016, 17:00
@Thracian
Thank you for that. If you could give me his contact details I would be most grateful.
My native language is English - I am Irish but am bilingual so no problem there.
It would be most useful to get a Spanish heli pilots view of how it goes here in reality on the ground and if the info indicated here is realistic Commercial Helicopter School :: Aerolink (http://www.aerolink.es/en/flight-academy/helicopter-commercial-pilot-program)
I have heard of the Spanish "captain" being a low timer and the "passenger" with lots of hours but no licence doing the work. Best avoided.
Phil
Montjuic
21st Jul 2016, 18:07
@Phil
Thanks its the first time I have come across the concept and to me it does not make any sense.
Is it particular to Spain only that this is allowed in the industry?
I just fail to see how a company with AS350s would let an R44 newly qualified ride along as a type of copilot meanwhile not gaining any hours towards their type rating.
I have heard that this situation can only last for 3 years legally in Spain and then you have to stump up for your own type rating or leave if the company does not wish to pay your type rating.
My doubts are also whether any company would enter into this arrangement at all in the first place.
This flight school assure me that from zero to finish of the CPL that I will not need to stump up more costs i.e more flight hours - I will have enough they say to be taken on, no need to pay for type rating that companies will fall over themselves to recruit me and lastly that I will have job offers before I even finish.
All and any thoughts or experiences all welcomed!
Thanks Phil
muermel
21st Jul 2016, 22:09
@muermel
I have over 10 years experience in government business consulting acquiring European Uunion funding for companies in many different countries so this is a total career change.
- Bachelor Masters degrees in economics, European Integration
- Native English speaker fluent in Spanish, Catalan and French
Massive general interest in aviation attracted to the idea of being a heli pilot due to its flexibility workwise, fascination with the machine etc more than by planes
So a wider role apart from flying on the business sales end of things I would be well able for also - I am quite flexible.
Lucky you getting an EC120 rating paid for. Congrats - bonded how does that work?
@Montjuic
So that's good news that you have some marketable skills apart from eventuallly being able to fly a helicopter, good :-) Also your language skills will open some doors or marktets for you. I wish I had your language skills, I'd be in South America or Africa for a couple of years.
If you can keep the "normal" job while doing the training and maybe starting to work for a local company, flying the R44 on local tours or something like that on the weekends, that might work. Problem is you're not building many hours, lousy pay and long hours for lousy pay :-) Your family and you WILL suffer for some time and you don't know how long that time will be.
The thing is that I was prepared to leave my girlfriend of 3,5 years behind and brake up with her (which I did!), move abroad if I had to (didn't have to do that!), give up a lot of things to get that first job (which I did and still do!). You will be competing with people who are willing to give up A LOT OF THINGS (like me) to get that important first job and there's no guarenty that it will happen within a year, or two or even three.......
Or that a company might consider you for a job, but it's in Africa, Asia or in your case South America or somewhere else. And they expect you to decide within days and move within a month or so.
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do it. But it will take a toll on you and your family. I think it's bloody tough.
Just be aware that it's not going to be easy at all. The hard part starts after getting the licence, which isn't worth much without at least a R44 rating for some entry level commercial work on it. Don't waste your money on a turbine rating initially, nobody will give you a turbine to fool around with after just 5 or 10 hours on it. If you break it you might ruin the company, simple as that. So owners are careful to give the machines away to pilots with no experience.
I will fly at least another 10 - 20 hours with the boss or a more experienced pilot after my EC 120 rating until I will be allowed to fly it on my own. But by that time I will have flown the 44 for close to 100 hours for the company and worked for my boss for 5 months, so he knows and trusts me by that time.
I will be bonded for the training costs for the 120 rating, should I leave before I have worked a certain amount of time after I got the rating, I will have to pay back some or all of the training costs.
Ciao
evil7
22nd Jul 2016, 05:45
I think we should get it clear in plain words regarding the "co-pilot" position in an AS 350.
There is no such thing! As the aircraft is single pilot certified the person on the left seat would be a passenger. Or maybe a "supportive" crew member like a navigator or else. This person could not "log" any of his flight hours unless the flight would be classed a training flight and this person would sit on the right with a FI/TRI on the left.
Then again I doubt that you legally could class oprational flights (e.g.fire fighting) as training flights towards a type rating.
Only my two cent - I am happy to be corrected.
"Is it particular to Spain only that this is allowed in the industry?"
It's not "allowed" in the industry - it is a legal fiddle.
phil
Montjuic
22nd Jul 2016, 09:02
I think we should get it clear in plain words regarding the "co-pilot" position in an AS 350.
There is no such thing! As the aircraft is single pilot certified the person on the left seat would be a passenger. Or maybe a "supportive" crew member like a navigator or else. This person could not "log" any of his flight hours unless the flight would be classed a training flight and this person would sit on the right with a FI/TRI on the left.
Then again I doubt that you legally could class oprational flights (e.g.fire fighting) as training flights towards a type rating.
Only my two cent - I am happy to be corrected.
@evil7
Many thanks excellent analysis I'm very grateful!
Happy to hear all your thoughts and opinions on this situation before I put my family home at risk embarking on my dream of becoming a HCPL
Montjuic
22nd Jul 2016, 09:19
"Is it particular to Spain only that this is allowed in the industry?"
It's not "allowed" in the industry - it is a legal fiddle.
phil
Thanks Phil this schools argument appears to be that companies taking you in under this legal fiddle arrangement allows you to get your foot in the door of a company whereby they then out of the goodness of their heart someday decide to pay for your type rating on an AS350 or more likely you do.
I presume they pay badly too for the privilege of going along for the ride?
To me it appears you are only there as a body to occupy the other seat. To be honest this arrangement for me is fine if there's a prospect of them paying for your type rating. But how likely is that? How much would it cost me if I ended up paying the type rating on an AS350?
The danger I see is that they pay you a pittance to occupy a seat dangling the hope they will pay the type rating then at the end of three years you either stump up or they fire you and get the next sucker in the pipeline.
All and any thoughts contributions welcome
montjuic... I think you have enough feedback to make your own mind up now, the end result is they give you a free seat in exchange for getting you signed up for the CPL.
The AS350 is not a machine for beginners.
Montjuic
22nd Jul 2016, 11:27
montjuic... I think you have enough feedback to make your own mind up now, the end result is they give you a free seat in exchange for getting you signed up for the CPL.
The AS350 is not a machine for beginners.
@ersa
I am of the opinion since I have zero knowledge of the industry that I can never have at the moment enough information about the different scenarios that exist.
I really want to sign up but would love to hear from people who may have gone down this road.
Really looking for specific info as well like how much would a type rating on an AS350 cost if in the event I had to pay for it?
Do you have to be a maths genius? I hate maths by the way but like physics
An average price for a AS350 type rating would be approx 6500 euros, to give you an example on the maths required....if you have an iPad or iPhone download this free book
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/maths-and-physics-for-pilots/id592113679?mt=11
Thracian
23rd Jul 2016, 12:06
@Montjuic: I was trying to send you a pm with the contact, but it seems you've blocked receiving pms here at pprune.
Please change your settings and tell me.
Thracians
whoknows idont
23rd Jul 2016, 22:19
@ersa
I am of the opinion since I have zero knowledge of the industry that I can never have at the moment enough information about the different scenarios that exist.
That's why you should follow the advise you have been given here several times already: Get out there and meet industry insiders personally, as many as possible.
Get a first hand picture of what the business looks like in Spain. Talk not only to instructors at schools but also to the ones doing the actual aerial work. Go have a couple of beers with these guys, but always have one less than they do.
You will both get a clearer picture of reality as well as set the all important foundation for a possible career. Network, network, network.
This is just one of the things in life that cannot be solved by a thorough google search.
Montjuic
25th Jul 2016, 21:51
That's why you should follow the advise you have been given here several times already: Get out there and meet industry insiders personally, as many as possible.
Get a first hand picture of what the business looks like in Spain. Talk not only to instructors at schools but also to the ones doing the actual aerial work. Go have a couple of beers with these guys, but always have one less than they do.
You will both get a clearer picture of reality as well as set the all important foundation for a possible career. Network, network, network.
@whoknows good advice it's just I don't know anyone in the industry and like any industry if you are on the outside its quite difficult to break into those circles even socially.
I just feel I can't rely wholly on the information from the school alone since its in their interest to sell it to me and I am afraid they are overstating my prospects on completion of the HCPL and not spelling out the reality to me. It's all a lot of generalizations I feel
Montjuic
25th Jul 2016, 21:54
@Montjuic: I was trying to send you a pm with the contact, but it seems you've blocked receiving pms here at pprune.
Please change your settings and tell me.
Thracians
@Thracians
Thanks for that would you care to try again all and any info is most welcome I think Ive changed my settings to allow it. Maybe because I'm a newbie I am not allowed?
Thracian
30th Jul 2016, 09:20
@Thracians
Thanks for that would you care to try again all and any info is most welcome I think Ive changed my settings to allow it. Maybe because I'm a newbie I am not allowed?
This is the error message I still receive:
Montjuic has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.
Try sending me a private message with your email address.
Thracian