Flight delay reason

[davidjohnson6]

Over the last months, whenever a flight is delayed the reason given by flight deck crew is 'due to an earlier air traffic control restriction...'

As a passenger I have little or no ability to counter this line. Furthermore I am aware ATC can't defend themselves to a flight deck PA announcement in an aircraft.

I am aware the much loved 'due to operational reasons' is often code for either 'we messed up but don't want to admit it' or 'you are not sufficiently profitable as passengers so we have decided to make you more profitable by some other means'.

Is blaming ATC restrictions the new version of operational reasons (with an EU261 compensation-immune escape route), or is there usually something credible behind it which genuinely wasn't an airline's fault ?

[Una Due Tfc]

At a busy airport, and if crossing busy airspace, if a flight misses their departure slot by more than 10 mins, they may have to wait for a new one. It's their fault for missing it, but if they're say 15 mins late for push back and get held subsequently waiting for a new slot, they may try blame ATC

[kcockayne]

dj6 it's not a new excuse. A BA crew used it at Aberdeen back in the late 70s to explain why they were late. Unfortunately for them the head of CAA/NATS was onboard &, when he got back to Heathrow, investigated the claim. He found it was nonsense, & the Captain of the flight was disciplined. Or, so the story went.
No, it's not new - it's as old as the hills.

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Having previously worked in ground handling, "operational reasons" is cited for a number of reasons. Yes, sometimes it's due to a lack of crew (i.e. we messed up and don't want to admit it) but sometimes it's due to a late inbound aircraft, or rather than telling everyone about a technical fault which could potentially cause nervousness I always used to say operational reasons whilst the engineers were investigating. Once the issue was confirmed I'd then refer to it as a technical fault because we'd often have a bit more information to back it up.

Similarly when an aircraft is ready to depart, the dispatcher and flight deck will agree reasons for the delay and assign a delay code. Both parties must agree on the delay code, so if the captain were to say one reason to the passengers, the official reason, and therefore the reason that would declared in the event of an EU261 claim, would be the truth.

[HeartyMeatballs]

Its a little unfair to said its "their fault" that a slot was missed. There are a huge amount of variables, stakeholders and parts of the supply chain that go in to getting the craft back in the sky. It only takes one to be delayed and its game over for the original slot. This can also include weather, vectoring, runway changes, single runway ops, extended taxi in, slow boarding, missing pax, missing bags, too many bags, unable to fuel due to a CB in the vicinity, an aircraft pushing back behind you and blocking in, a so called 'ramp check' by the local incompetent Authority. When the jet is ready and there is not a slot available then it really is air traffic control restrictions causing the problems. I won't name any country (its not the UK) but priority will always be given to their local airlines too so us jolly foreigners are at the back of the queue.

Now we have almost weekly strikes by some countries. When they are not striking they are working to rule and flows must be reduced. Even if you are ready early then you will often have a slot given to you regardless.

Some places are now busier than ever. Barcelona had arrival restrictions yesterday due to the wind as they could not operate parallel runways for a few hours. PMI is busy and being #14 for arrival and #12 for departure is standard. PMI ground cannot cope and you cannot get your ready message. I observed a Helvetic crew try to call ready. They could not get a word in and when they could they were told they were too late and that they had missed their slot whereas in fact they were ready on time just the ground controller either ignored or did not hear their request. Thankfully the crew stood their ground and away they went.

Its very easy to take a simplistic view (particularly when people are looking forward to their EU261 money) but in reality the operation is vastly more complex than passengers could ever imagine.

[kcockayne]

That just about encapsulates everything, from the operator's point of view, meatballs. As you say, the whole thing is very complicated. Not that I would like to suggest that certain agencies are easy targets !

[Hotel Tango]

My favourite one is the apology for the delay "due to the late arrival of the incoming aircraft". Yes, fine. But why was the incoming late then? :ugh: Just one of many yukspeak announcements we have to endure!

[Out Of Trim]

Hotel Tango

Do you really expect the airline or indeed their ground handlers to break-down all the accumulated sector delays before the sector you happen to be flying on and explain all this in great detail!

For a start, we just don't have the time or often the information anyway. All we often know is that the aircraft is late, so that is what you will be told. As explained above. It can be much more complex than many outside the industry realise.

Even if you do depart a little late, often you may still arrive on time; due to ATC sometimes allowing short cuts. Also the Captain can quite often add some detail after you board, especially if they have operated some or all of the previous sectors.

[Cloud1]

A colleague of mine flew from LTN recently pushed back on time and was still on the ground an hour later waiting to takeoff. GMC and ATC slot issues - and it's becoming more frequent at LTN. So yes ATC issues may well be a problem as our skies get busier....and the French continue to strike whenever they feel like it.

[HeartyMeatballs]

In fairness I can only attribute one day of disruption due to UK infrastructure and that was because of Scottish having some phased upgrade.

Almost all restrictions are due to issues on the mainland. Everything in the UK is fairly logical. Check out all of the Madrid or Barcelona departures and the ground set up at these locations and you can see just his bad things can get (MAD must have 40+ SIDS). All in order to protect jobs in their bloated public sectors.

I don't operate from the south east so maybe I'm shielded from the worst of it. But UK aviation does very well without government subsidisation.

Look to the mainland and a lot of it is publically owned and things are no better at all.

Some days flying through a bust London sector I'm frankly AMAZED at what an amazing job they do. They do an amazing job and I'm sure we are truely thankful of their skill and the service they provide. Go to the mainland and things quickly fall apart very quickly despite them earning a hell of a lot more than ours. And let's not get started on their vectoring! Privitisation is not the cause of the issues. Bloated publically owned or heavily influenced services are.

With London or Scottish there's no ignoring calls, there no thirty second delay and then "uh, station calling.....", requests are not met with " uh, make that with the next sector". Whenever a request is denied by London its because of the mainland restrictions on the mainland.

NATS are still renowned for their operational excellence which is why they're seen as the gold standard a provide some services abroad.

I know its a la mode amongst the luvvies to talk Britain down. But lets put things into perspective.

[Una Due Tfc]

Heartymeatballs, you're quite right. That should have read "if it's their fault" and by "their" I meant the airline in general, not the crews specifically. Apologies for any offense caused.

[HeartyMeatballs]

Oh I see. No problem! Sometimes its difficult to convey real meaning on an internet forum! :)

[Hotel Tango]

HT Do you really expect the airline or indeed their ground handlers to break-down all the accumulated sector delays before the sector you happen to be flying on and explain all this in great detail!

No, just don't waste my time with meaningless information! Oh, and I worked in the industry for 44 years btw.

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Mate of mine was on an EZY A319 LTN-GLA last night, 13 July, the aircraft pushed at around 19:00 but held remote due to "ATC restrictions in Scotland".

Really?

Aircraft departed at about 19:50.

[737James]

One of the worst that I keep unfortunately encountering is PFO especially on a Wednesday or Sunday night the airport and ground agents just can't cope with passenger numbers.

Frequently ex UK you get your slots changed and delayed on this route as they know they have earlier delays, only last week it was so busy we were kept in a hold over Akrotiri air base for 20 mins as no spare stands to park on.

Once on the ground it's just as chaotic you never know if you are going to have a standard turnaround or a 2hour wait. sometimes they will bus one load of pax out to the aircraft then use the bus for inbound flights so taking 1 hour to board and am told when this happens people then wander off from the gate.

[HeartyMeatballs]

ATC restrictions in Scottish sectors does happen - I am not sure of the specifics but there is a systems upgrade being phased in which is causing delays.

[SWBKCB]

So what about cancelling a flight in case it gets ATC delays and has a knock on effect for the rest of the days programme - ATC or Operational?

[paully]

One thing that is for sure, when flights get delayed, usually the company response is poor to non existent. Ok they do the minimum when required by law by very little else. You are left to your own devices and frustrations. Years ago I was returning from St Malo to Portsmouth by Brittany Ferries and we were delayed due to combination of tech fault and low water level.In no time flat every car waiting to board was given a letter of apology, full explanation an expected arrival time in the UK and an offer of a free sit down meal in the Al a Carte restaurant on the Bretagne. It also came with a free glass of decent wine as well..Now I`m not saying the Airlines can go to that extent, but they certainly can up their game.

Customer service, for a lot of them, exists in name only from experience sadly

[Out Of Trim]

Welcome to low cost Aviation!

You get what you pay for in Life..

Flying used to be more expensive and could afford to offer good customer service and was staffed accordingly. :D

[paully]

Ah low cost, well those days have actually vanished, only the illusion remains.Your wallet tells you otherwise. The ferries are about the same price but still provide a better service, so you do get what you pay for, only some do it much better

[philbky]

It isn't just low cost airlines that treat delayed pax badly. BA from IAH to LHR delayed due to a birdstrike on the inbound. Flight crew and ground engineer excellent, keeping pax informed on a person to person basis. Ground handling staff useless. Couldn't find my EI connecting flight which would be missed, even though I was on a through BA ticket with the BA codeshare flight number. Four hour delay with a packet of pretzels and a bottle of tepid water to keep us happy.

On approach to LHR a number of reconnections were read out. Not mine. Had to sort it out with Aer Lingus on the ground. Complained, tried for compensation, rejected three times. Now use LH via FRA, slightly inconvenient but better service and amazingly cheaper.

The best announcement regarding a delay I ever heard was, strangely enough, on Ryanair when an Irish Captain said something along the lines of "sorry for the (70 minute) delay but this aircraft has been working hard since six o'cock this morning. Every time it has tried to get away on time and this is its fourth trip into Europe today. It is now getting tired, not too tired to take you but tired of wrong paperwork, passengers not boarding on time and long waits to get in the air. So, we will get you there as quickly as we can, once they decide we can start engines"

[RAT 5]

A bit of humour and honesty usually works and dampens the agitation. Pax expect and respect being treated as intelligent adults and not school children who will do as they are told, because you tell them to.
Lowly ground staff are often not employees of the airline and so have little loyalty. They are not the most motivated link in the chain. "Operational reasons" is too bland. The airlines will try to get away with not having to carry the blame and thus compensation. It will always be smoke & mirrors unless it is obvious. More than once I've been a pax and listened in to ground staff conversations at the gate and discerned there was a crewing problem and not an ATC delay; but guess which we were told?

[Hotel Tango]

Very good and true post RAT 5. The last part reminded me of the day (quite some years ago) when my flight was delayed due to "air traffic control restrictions". It was not all that unusual in that period and I rang my colleague at FMP to get an update on the expected delay. "What delay" he replied! I presented the gate agents with my credentials, together with the details of my little chat to my mate at work, and suggested that the airline may wish to review its reason for the delay. The look of surprise on their faces was a sight to behold. Shortly after, a corrective announcement was made that the flight was delayed due to technical reasons :)

[Occams Razor]

Mate of mine was on an EZY A319 LTN-GLA last night, 13 July, the aircraft pushed at around 19:00 but held remote due to "ATC restrictions in Scotland".

Really?

Aircraft departed at about 19:50.
Slots for Scottish destinations over the last few days has been the norm. I didn't look up the slot code but suspect the guys at Prestwick are getting some new equipment installed so the flow rate for some sectors was reduced.

[Trav a la]

Philbky
It isn't just low cost airlines that treat delayed pax badly. BA from IAH to LHR delayed due to a birdstrike on the inbound.
Complained, tried for compensation, rejected three times.

Birdstrikes are not classed as 'extraordinary circumstances' so BA still owe you compensation. Regulation EU261 is the law, low cost or high.

[RAT 5]

Are you sure it wasn't to avoid the shout of FORE due to the noise over Troon as Monty was standing over a treacherous putt. The Scottish are very patriotic about their golfers.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

This was doing the 'rounds' during my time at West Drayton in the eighties....

[cobopete]

My pet hate is "we regret to announce a delay to flight xyz due to the late arrival of the inbound aircraft" in other words " its late because it's late"

[DaveReidUK]

My pet hate is "we regret to announce a delay to flight xyz due to the late arrival of the inbound aircraft" in other words " its late because it's late"

In this day and age, it's easy to verify whether or not that's the case. If it is, schedules nowadays are so tight that the original delay causing the knock-on effect could be several sectors ago. I can't say, as a delayed pax, that I would be particularly interested in knowing what caused it.

YMMV.

[rutankrd]

Ah low cost, well those days have actually vanished, only the illusion remains.Your wallet tells you otherwise. The ferries are about the same price but still provide a better service, so you do get what you pay for, only some do it much better

You are confusing flexible ticket pricing and the low cost Business model - they really are differing things outside of the marketing men/womens offices.

Low cost is about reducing the fixed costs of doing business including out sourcing everything possible and moving resultant risk off of your books.

This means you have precious little control when things go wrong as the likes of Menzies or Swissport deliver the minimum of service to your customers at the coal face and the call centre staff may be in another country completely.

Recipe for poor customer experiences and it's not just those familiar orange/harp tailed and Vueling Guys as BA out source beyond Heathrow these days

[rutankrd]

In this day and age, it's easy to verify whether or not that's the case. If it is, schedules nowadays are so tight that the original delay causing the knock-on effect could be several sectors ago. I can't say, as a delayed pax, that I would be particularly interested in knowing what caused it.

When you say in these days - ATC and missed slot delays have been easy to identify since just about ever at airport information desks !

Telex based service has been around and used as long as schedule flights have existed !

The fact is many travellers are unable to comprehend that their getting to the gate 2 minutes late after their personal shopping on that 6.00 am departure to Malaga and consequential missed slot would lead to hundreds of other passengers being inconvenienced throughout the rest of the day !

[skyloone]

I believe that one or two outfits cancel flights with joyfull abandon at the slightest wiff of slots associated with any form of industrial action. Been chatting this through with an ops bod it would appear that the slots arent really that bad its just that certain outfits have close to zero crewing cover to handle any delays. One I know of regularly has no standby cover at all at a couple of bases. A colleague called in sick, flight delayed nearly 4 hours. Ac flown from other base with full crew. Delay was claimed as... Yes.... ATC..... No compensation? Blame ATC, save money.

[Scinfaxi]

My favourite one is the apology for the delay "due to the late arrival of the incoming aircraft". Yes, fine. But why was the incoming late then? Just one of many yukspeak announcements we have to endure!

But that's a legitimate delay code. 93. If late inbound and you get aircraft away within MGT. DL93

[Hotel Tango]

But that's a legitimate delay code. 93. If late inbound and you get aircraft away within MGT. DL93

Be it legitimate or not, as far as I'm concerned it's totally pointless as an announcement. The point is that it's delayed and that's all I need to know. Obviously it's delayed for one of a myriad of reasons which will have affected that aircraft that day (or even the previous day in some cases). To tell me it will be late departing because it's late arriving is quite frankly taking the pi$$! Just announce the delay and try and be as accurate as possible about the new departure time.

[zoomboy]

That Oddie but Goodie from Wesy Drayton in the 80s is still true. I'm also a retired ATCO and when returning from holiday earlier this year, the wife and I were told by the company that our flight was delayed by earlier ATC problems. The captain, bless him, though was an honest man and admitted our delay was because his aircraft went tech and it took a while to transfer pax and baggage to the backup.

[RAT 5]

All we humans want is honest information and to be treated as sensible; not some hog-wash BS, or nothing at all. Simple facts.
We are dragooned into endless CRM sessions that emphasise good communications. Why, in airlines in general, do the powers that be think CRM is only a crew issue when on board. It should be a basic philosophy throughout the operation.

[zoomboy]

Should be a basic philosophy throughout life.

[Rwy in Sight]

Because lying to customers and putting obstacles on the way to the truth can save a company money- provided the customer drops the effort to find the truth.

[RAT 5]

Indeed. True, not cynical.
A slight thread creep, but it does involve pax compensation. What are 'the rights'? Pax arrives at checkin in good time. Not all desks are served. Long delay, but still in time. Long delay at security due lack of staff, or technical breakdown of scan equipment. Pax gets to gate too late and misses flight. The root cause of the missed flight is the airport not the airline. What rights does the pax have and who do you claim from?

[caaardiff]

Be it legitimate or not, as far as I'm concerned it's totally pointless as an announcement. The point is that it's delayed and that's all I need to know. Obviously it's delayed for one of a myriad of reasons which will have affected that aircraft that day (or even the previous day in some cases). To tell me it will be late departing because it's late arriving is quite frankly taking the pi$$! Just announce the delay and try and be as accurate as possible about the new departure time.

It's perfectly legitimate. It's telling you the aircraft isn't there yet. Most other delays involved the aircraft being at the Airport and another issue with it. Start giving reasons for previous delays and you can have a long list of delays throughout the day for the reason the last flight of the day is late. Pointless long announcement that will just cause more confusion.

Also most of the time the ground agents don't know the reason for the previous delays. Airline Operations will advise the delay reason via IATA Delay codes and often only the reason for the delay to that particular flight

[DaveReidUK]

If my flight's delayed, I appreciate being given a reasonable amount of information on whether it's a technical issue, crew availability, ATC problem, etc, so that I can make an informed judgement on how long it's likely to last (because the airline often won't stick their neck out and tell me).

That includes being told that a late incoming aircraft is the reason - at least in that case I can be reasonably sure that we're going to depart as soon as the aircraft can be turned round.

[Hotel Tango]

caaardiff, your post is as almost as condescending as that particular announcement. ;)

You say:

Start giving reasons for previous delays and you can have a long list of delays throughout the day for the reason the last flight of the day is late. Pointless long announcement that will just cause more confusion.

Here is what I said:

The point is that it's delayed and that's all I need to know. Obviously it's delayed for one of a myriad of reasons which will have affected that aircraft that day (or even the previous day in some cases).

So, where am I asking for a long "pointless" announcement with the aircraft's history for the day?

[PAXboy]

This is but one of the many threads that have discussed the topic in the neighbouring SLF forum:
http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/421363-reasons-delays.html