Who is responsible for supplying the PLB?

[MrAverage]

Since all club EASA aircraft (that do not have ELTs) will be required to be equipped with PLBs soon, I would liken that to the First Aid Kit and the Fire Extinguisher. That is; a portable unit that must be carried. As far as I can ascertain the owner or the operator is responsible for equipping the aircraft with such items but the PIC must only ensure that they are in fact on board. If this were not the case I'd need another flight case for these items.


Opinions please!

[S-Works]

PERSONAL Locator Beacon. Its all in the name.

I use a mcMurdo fast find. In fact even take it on Enduro trips in the mountains just in case!

[dublinpilot]

I don't think the leglisation says who must provide it, but simply that it must be there.

If the PIC checks and it's not there, then there can be no flight. It doesn't matter who should have put it there. It's probably a bit like headsets. Often rental aircraft come with them, sometimes they don't but you can hire them. Often pilots prefer to bring their own.

If the aircraft doesn't come with headsets, it's probably slightly cheaper to rent.

[MrAverage]

Headsets are not required equipment. Aircraft can be flown with a hand mike and a speaker, or even non-radio.


It does matter who should have put it there, in the same way as it matters who should have supplied the first aid kit. (Not sure why I used capitals before)


I'm fully aware what PLB stands for bose-x, like you I've had one for years.

[CharlieDeltaUK]

Am I the only person who hadn't spotted that PLBs will be a requirement soon? There's an article in Flyer it seems

[MrAverage]

I'm sure you're still in the majority.

[Jan Olieslagers]

A requirement? On which planes? In what airspace?

[S-Works]

A PLB is registered to an individual so I can't see how a flying club can be expected to provide them.

I am more inclined to be greatful that the blind beuracrats have given us the option.

[phiggsbroadband]

Well lets be practical, and more logical....


A Flying School is in the business of providing 'experience flights' to
members of the public, and PPL training. So the passenger, or student, will need to be issued with a PLB. So the Club will need to have spare PLBs if they have several aircraft.
So if you hire the aircraft as a PPL pilot, then in some cupboard there will be it's associated PLB gathering dust, which the club might hire to you for a quid or so.

[what next]

So the passenger, or student, will need to be issued with a PLB.

No. The aircraft will need to be equipped with an ELT. As simple as that. Works in many other places since decades. One ELT may cost as much as two PLBs, but these will evetually get lost, stolen or broken, so installing those ELTs will be the cheapest option for every flying school and club.

[BillieBob]

So the passenger, or student, will need to be issued with a PLB.Not at all. The requirement is for, "a survival ELT (ELT(S)) or a personal locator beacon (PLB), carried by a crew member or a passenger....". It may also be worth reading the associated AMCs, particularly with respect to the monitoring and replacement/recharging of ELT/PLB batteries.

[The Ancient Geek]

It really is simple - each aircraft should have an ELT. All very clever but expensive and not practical if there are no electrics such as in a Tiger Moth or microlight.
If this is not practical etc then one person on board should have a PLB.
Note that an ELT is registered to and fitted to a specific aircraft.
A PLB is registered to a specific person and should (in theory) only be carried by that person.

In practice a microlight club will probably have a few registered to the club owner. The risk here is
that the club owner's wife will probably have a policemen at her door to tell her that her husband has been fatally splatted when he is sitting in the hanger wondering why the student is late returning.

[fireflybob]

If I recall correctly the UK had a derogation until April next year from the requirement for EASA aircraft to have an ELT fitted. After that time if there is no further derogation then you will have to have an ELT.

Also other states (such as Holland) do not have derogations so legally even in a UK registered aircraft you should have one when flying in those countries. Whilst PLBs are a good idea (and probably better since ELTs don't work underwater in the case of a ditching) they do not fulfil any legal requirement for an ELT.

[Jim59]

It really is simple - each aircraft should have an ELT. All very clever but expensive and not practical if there are no electrics such as in a Tiger Moth or microlight.I think you will find that ELTs have internal batteries (as do PLBs).

[Jim59]

If I recall correctly the UK had a derogation until April next year from the requirement for EASA aircraft to have an ELT fitted. After that time if there is no further derogation then you will have to have an ELT.

The derogation runs out this August.

[fireflybob]

The derogation runs out this August.

Jim59 thanks

[Above The Clouds]

Another good reason I don't own an EASA aircraft, thankfully the two I do own are permit and Annex II :D

[ChickenHouse]

I am confused. To my knowledge the current change to come is the possibility to use a cheaper PLB as a replacement for a mandatory ELT - at least for certain countries. A PLB is always registered to a person, hence the name, while a fixed fitted ELT is registered to the aircraft ID and a mobile ELT can be both, registered to aircraft or person.

[MrAverage]

The PLB has to be registered to the owner or owners and can be registered to a company. The form also asks for vessel details (whether the vessel is an aircraft or not) including the callsign. I have heard of others registering them to: Aircraft - Various.

[flybymike]

One wonders how many people will bother with all this.

[BigEndBob]

So have there been occasions when a plb or elt over land has been used to find someone in UK land space.
Minute I do PFL's the locals are on the phone :).
If I crash and die the plb won't be going off, if I survive, probably use my phone.

Perhaps we can skip the club annual payment to the CAA and do some thing more useful with the money.

[sharpend]

My Fast Find PLB is registered to an aircraft. The reason being is to notify SAR what they are looking for. I think registration to an aircraft is mandatory. After that driver on the A9 went off the road and lay in the bushes for days, I considered taking my PLB in the car... but then D&D would look for my aeroplane and miss my car in the ditch!

BigEndBob, don't rely on your phone, you may not get a signal.

[S-Works]

My plb is registered to me. I take it on motocross trips in the mountains as well as in the aircraft. Along with kayak trips, walking etc.

[GBEBZ]

I recently registered a replacement PLB with the UK Distress & Security Beacon Registry (as is the law) and got this reply after about 3 months from application (bold mine):

Good afternoon

I do apologise for the long delay, due to changing computing systems, low staffing levels and an unprecedented level of registrations and enquiries. Please find attached a copy of the database entry for your beacon as input today, please check that this input is correct or email back any amendments.

We are entering registrations as quickly as possible but we have a current backlog, as such, the administrative side of returning confirmation and labels is also taking considerably longer at several months, as data input is given operational priority. Therefore until these are received, please treat the attached as "proof of registration". The labels show the beacon Hex Id: 9D...or 1D....., etc as well as the 24 hour contact telephone number for Falmouth Coastguard, who have full access to our database and are located in the same building as the Registry. Their no is: +44 (0)1326 317575, you may wish to note this down should you need to contact them in an emergency.

Regards, Linda
UK Distress & Security Beacon Registry
T: 01326 211569
F: 01326 319264
E: [email protected] or [email protected]

I dont think they would cope with every pilot buying a PLB or every airplane installing an ELT in the next year...

[TheOddOne]

Well, to tackle the thread drift and get back to the OP's question...

As far as I'm concerned, it is the commander's responsibility to ensure that the aircraft is airworthy and compliant with all current rules and regulations, including all the required equipment. As a club, though, I think it's our responsibility to ensure as far as we can that our aircraft when rented to fellow club members has all relevant and required equipment made available. A PLB is now (or on 25th inst) in the same category as the afore-mentioned fire extinguisher and first aid kit.

TOO

[TheOddOne]

I dont think they would cope with every pilot buying a PLB or every airplane installing an ELT in the next year...

Well, I'm still waiting for registration details for the PLB I bought some months ago, outwith the change in the regulations. However, in the e-mail telling me about the backlog in registrations, it did emphasise that if the PLB was activated, emergency action would be taken anyway, so maybe registration to an individual or a vessel (boat, car, aircraft or whatever) isn't so vital. I'd hope that a nice shiny new red and white S92 would come looking for the PLB no matter who had it with them at the time.

TOO.

[flybymike]

This regulation is going to amount to very good business for the PLB manufacturers. I trust that EASA have negotiated a nice commission arrangement for themselves.

[GBEBZ]

The Civil Aviation Authority, in exercise of its powers under Article 242 of the Air Navigation
Order 2009 (‘the Order’), hereby exempts any aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, and
flying for purposes other than public transport, from the requirements of Article 37(2) of the
Order to carry the equipment specified at paragraph 5, Scale KK of Schedule 4 to the Order,
that is to say an emergency locator transmitter.

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20160808ORS41183.pdf

[Level Attitude]

GBEBZ,
Many thanks for posting the link because, in my opinion (given the topic of this thread), the part you quoted appears very misleading;

You missed out:
3) This exemption has effect from the date it is signed until 25 August 2016, both dates inclusive, unless previously revokedWith the reason being:
Annexes VI (Part-NCC) and VII (Part-NCO) of the Air Operations Regulation, Commission Regulation (EU)No. 965/2012, come into force in the United Kingdom on 25 August 2016

[GBEBZ]

sorry, was not trying to mislead, im travelling and only have basic internet access over iPhone and only selected the one para. I maybe also for the same reasons never read the whole thing :)

[crablab]

The person in charge at the club I fly from still doesn't believe this is going to happen...!

I guess all the PLB prices will have hiked by now! The greatest issue with ELT's will be fitting them to leased aircraft as the lessor will be the one responsible for installing it and they tend to be tight with the beans...

EDIT:
It seems it is now very difficult to get hold of them now! Backordering this one is going to be no good...
http://crablab.co.uk/files/upload/retrive?id=381537129

[Mike Flynn]

I am old enough to remember when we had to remove these from imported US aircraft.

Most of these are available online for around £200. Better you have a personal one than another
in the sinking aircraft.

Plenty such as this on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPOT-3-Satellite-GPS-Messenger-Personal-Locator-Beacon-Marine-Boat-Fishing-Camp-/360869014108?hash=item5405782a5c:g:Gk8AAOxy4fVTDNF3

[crablab]

I am old enough to remember when we had to remove these from imported US aircraft.
Why did they have to be removed? That seems stupid!?

[atceng]

At the risk of someone saying that if I cant work it out I am too thick to fly,could anyone help interpret the latest from the CAA in public apps docs/33 etc referred to by GBEBZ.
The revocation of the exemption from the derogation (is that right)and the apparent validity of only a few days from 8th Aug 2016 to 25 Aug 2016 has me totally baffled.

HELP!

[crablab]

Basically: you need either a PLB or an ELT that has been registered (I think that's what activates it...) in order to fly a UK registered aircraft in UK airspace from the 28th August.

[mabmac]

GBEBZ,
Many thanks for posting the link because, in my opinion (given the topic of this thread), the part you quoted appears very misleading;

You missed out:
With the reason being:
However this is followed by:

Notes:
1) Annexes VI (Part-NCC) and VII (Part-NCO) of the Air Operations Regulation, Commission Regulation (EU) No. 965/2012, come into force in the United Kingdom on 25 August 2016, so this exemption will cease to apply to aircraft registered in the United Kingdom that are required to operate in accordance with those Annexes as from that date.

2) The Air Navigation Order 2016 will no longer require aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and flying for purposes other than public transport to carry an emergency locator transmitter. The Air Navigation Order 2016 will come into force on 25 August 2016.

3) Aircraft flying for the purposes of commercial air transport must comply with the equipment requirements of Annex III of the Air Operations Regulation, so far as the carriage of an emergency locator transmitter is concerned.

Surely all this means that the current regulations and exemptions will be superseded on 25 August and replaced by the ANO in Note 2 which introduces a new exemption wef 25 August 2016?

[atceng]

Thank you grablab, and apologies for minor thread drift but:-:)
Somewhere I found a list of equipment requirements for EASA NCO aircraft including first aid kits,clocks,extinguishers,docs PLB or ELT etc,but for the life of me and last night to 2 am I cant find it again.
Anyone know where I can find the list?

Sorry just read the latest,and that was my interpretation that a further EXEMPTION of requirements for ELT/PLB would be in force from 25 Aug 2016.
ie I don't need the PLB I just bought! and the foregoing posts re the requirement are incorrect!

[crablab]

Surely all this means that the current regulations and exemptions will be superseded on 25 August and replaced by the ANO in Note 2 which introduces a new exemption wef 25 August 2016?

So...we won't need to carry an ELT/PLB?

[atceng]

Typical of CAA to wait to announce this two weeks before the deadline,they may have shares in PLB suppliers.

Off to bed,not going to spend another ghoster trying to figure this out,'night all

[Mike Flynn]

Crablab asked
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
I am old enough to remember when we had to remove these from imported US aircraft.
Why did they have to be removed? That seems stupid!?


Red tape and gold plate regulations.

[Level Attitude]

Originally Posted by mabmac http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Surely all this means that the current regulations and exemptions will be superseded on 25 August and replaced by the ANO in Note 2 which introduces a new exemption wef 25 August 2016?

Note 2 Only applies to non-EASA aircraft and there is no new exemption, they have just said the requirement will no longer be in the ANO at all.
A bonus to Chipmunk(?), etc owners.

From 00:01 hours on 26 August EASA Part-NCO applies to all EASA aircraft (no exemptions allowed) (Note 1 refers) which is the vast majority of GA aircraft.

It will not matter that the requirement is no longer in the ANO as this is not the primary relevant legal statute - Commission Regulation (EU) No. 965/2012, that backs Part-NCO, is.

[atceng]

Many thanks mabmac, so Annex vii is the EASA NCO regulation,for fixed wing 19 pages of it!
This is now the legal requirements,and there are no derogations from 25/08/2016
I'm going through it to establish initially the salients for EASA non complex NCO.

1) Equipment and docs to be carried, ELT/PLB ,clock,extinguisher,life jackets etc.
These requirements are scattered over the 19 pages.

2) Operating criteria, e.g decision heights,min met visi. etc.

I'll raise a thread on 1) if I survive.

[Pitch+Power]

It never ceases to amaze me - a simple question 'do we or don't we need a piece of equipment' - now into its 3rd page of discussion.


sadly, this seems to be a regular occurrence in the euro/uk field of aviation

[crablab]

I spoke to the CAA today (after much confusion: apparently 'administrators' don't know what the ANO is!) - from the 25th any UK registered aircraft that is not subject to Annex II (which are exempt) will require an ELT if it is 6 seats and greater, or if it is less than six seats an ELT or a PLB. The person I spoke to suggested another exemption would not be made...

I hope this clears it up a bit!

[hegemon88]

It seems it is now very difficult to get hold of them now! Backordering this one is going to be no good...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008OPJGBC


/h88

[sharpend]

My Fast Find is registered to my aircraft. I did so because that was what it said I should do on the tin. The registration was accepted.

[foxmoth]

It seems it is now very difficult to get hold of them now

Ordered one yesterday from these guys Marine Chandlery, Sailing Clothing & Marine Hardware (http://www.marinesuperstore.com)
Arrived this morning and at a better price than I have seen elsewhere (£175 inc vat):ok:

[fireflybob]

We've just ordered 2 McMurdo Fast Find PLBs from Pooleys and they arrived within a couple of days.

I just noticed the battery date on the one we have already is July 2015 although the self test is working. I did a search on YouTube but changing the battery looks a bit complex for me - does anyone know how to get the battery changed and is it cost effective to do same as opposed to buying a new unit?

[MrAverage]

It depends which type you have. Some of the early ones it's dead easy (I recently changed two at a cost of £75 each), others must be sent away to be changed and properly checked.

[robin]

Just realised that some of my contact details have changed since I first registered my PLB some years ago. How do I see what my details are currently and change, where appropriate?

[cotterpot]

Robin - you will have a copy of what you sent them?
Otherwise just download the form and resubmit it with change details.

[robin]

Cheers.

I haven't a clue what I sent them - it was so long ago, but I'll resubmit the form.

R

[martin topgun]

Nice to see the aviation retailers selling the Fastfind 220 for around £230 (inc VAT) whereas the sailing retailers sell exactly the same item for around £179 (inc VAT). Just goes to show that once again they are happy to rip all of us off :ugh::ugh:

[crablab]

Jeremy Pratt of AFE has ordered a load in bulk so there is a discount if you buy through him

[tb10er]

OK, so who has been up without one now that the new rules kick in?

[Parson]

So how long until the first S92 is scrambled on a false call due to inadvertent use? No necessarily by the owner but if it gets nicked and falls into the wrong hands...... Cue the Daily Mail....

[TheOddOne]

OK, so who has been up without one now that the new rules kick in?

Me. In an Ikarus. Oh, hang on, I don't need one in a Microlight! I've got one in the PA28, though, tucked in the P2 seat back with the fire extinguisher, first aid kit and the docs telling me what to do in the event of a Typhoon suddenly appearing in our 9 o'clock.

This highlights the barminess of the whole situation. Who decided that it's essential kit in a PA28, but not in a C42? (must have in a Beagle Pup, but not in a Bulldog). Are we less susceptible to needing rescue in a Permit aircraft or are our lives suddenly worth less 'cos we're not flying an EASA type?

TOO

[foxmoth]

Who decided that it's essential kit in a PA28, but not in a C42?

Just shows the difference between the Eurocrats and their need to regulate and the UK.

[Whopity]

This morning I came across a school that had purchased two McMurdo Fastfind 220s from a well known aviation supplier. It appears they cannot be registered in the UK, because they are coded for Croatia!

[A and C]

As the owner of three aircraft that are leased to a flying club I find the idea of putting a PLB in each aircraft a recipe for trouble, the chances of the PLB staying in the aircraft long term are minimal and eventually someone will accidentally put it in their flight bag and the aircraft will be grounded untill it is found or a new PLB sourced.

The only real option for the commercial operator is to fit an ELT to the aircraft and make sure it is fitted some place that those renting the aircraft can't get at.

My guess is that in the long term a permanent ELT will be cheaper than replacing the PLB's that go will missing in the flying club environment.

[flybymike]

Another straw on the camel's back of GA training costs caused by unnecessary over regulation.

[NorthernChappie]

Club has a couple but I decided to get my own Mcmurdo 220 last week. Used this outlet https://www.marinesuperstore.com


£175 with under 24 hour courier delivery is pretty good. Only thing is that when I registered it on-line, I got the response that it would take at least 10 weeks due to unprecedented demand.

[A and C]

Just like you I am not a fan of over regulation but in this case I think EASA have a point and fortunately due to the number of units being required by the industry the cost is not astronomic.

The cost of fitting an ELT for a commercial operator is not high per flying hour, for the private operator the cost of a PLB is much lower but probably around the same per flying hour as for commercial operation.

Maintenance is just an added item on the radio annual check and a six yearly battery change.

I see fitting ELT's to my fleet as a duty of care to my customers, it will garentee that should one of my customers have an accident the emergency services can find them quickly.

[Jim59]

I see fitting ELT's to my fleet as a duty of care to my customers, it will garentee that should one of my customers have an accident the emergency services can find them quickly.

There is no guarantee. A report I read recently claimed that they activate successfully in 81-83% of accidents - not 100%.

[PA28161]

Bloody hell,:rolleyes: what's all the fuss, PLB's cost around 220 quid; if you own or fly an aeroplane on a regular basis then you should be able to afford one of these potentially life saving bits of kit. Period

[PA28161]

Jim59, if I crashed and survived in a remote area I would certainly be happy with a PLB with the chance of it working 80% of the time rather than having nothing working 100% of the time

[The Ancient Geek]

To be fair, the statistics are a tad misleading.
If a crash is bad enough to prevent the beacon working then it is unlikely to be survivable so no loss, OTOH an ELT is going down with the aircraft in water so always carry a PLB over water.

[Ebbie 2003]

With my airplane I supply life jackets, a raft and a GPS PLB.

Now here is the catch - if I rented someone else's airplane I would take my kit with me - I know its history and that it works - would one trust other people's kit?

That said the PLB is registered to me and my plane - but something is better than nothing (my airplane is US registered and operated in the eastern caribbean) - if it breaks the rules I'll suck it up.

This is in addition to the normal airplane ELT (it wouldn't work long if at all as 95% of my airplane's time is spend over the ocean.

PLB's are a good idea and they will bump up the chances of being found quickly - ideally have your own but if it comes with the airplane so be it - I do hope that someone outlaws the practice of charging for the "rental" of safety gear.

[Ebbie 2003]

Oh, yes and read "Finding Carla" - the incident that led to requirement to install ELT's in airplanes - a heartbreaking story.

[Jim59]

My figure was for automatic ELT. I have no idea what the equivalent figure would br for PLBs.